Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 12 Sep 2017 08:47

A second book is about to cover Surgical Strikes ... by Nitin Gokhale. Lucky days for jingos normally starved of literature on recent military history!

Image

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https://nitinagokhale.blogspot.ie/2017/ ... -book.html

....

Sometime in early 2017, I was on my annual visit to one of the military training establishments to deliver a talk. Over tea, after the usual lively interactive session, a young, smartly turned out officer popped a question that stumped me for a moment. He asked, "Why do the media always doubt our military's ability? Why can't it believe the forces when they say Indian soldiers went across the LoC to carry out surgical strikes?" :roll: {Edit: the scepticism and politics by Kejriwal and likes was most shameful} My counter to him was, “Don't generalise.” “There are many (including me in my earlier avatar as a media practitioner) who report factually but in absence of official accounts of what actually happened in the raids that took place in 2015 and 2016, it is difficult for the media too, to give the audience the full picture,” I pointed out to him.

While the officer did not go away entirely convinced the exchange with him set me thinking. On the return flight to Delhi, I tried to recall what I exactly knew about many of the recent actions taken by the military and other security forces; or for that matter how decision-making evolves at say, the Prime Minister’s level or in the top echelons of the government. As I scribbled some points, realisation dawned: I may have known enough to write a quick news story or a longer analysis, but clearly, the details have always been elusive in respect of crucial events in the realm of national security.

....

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jamwal » 12 Sep 2017 11:10

Please do not post excerpts like that of such a recent copyrighted work without permission

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 12 Sep 2017 14:54

Nitin Gokhale posted these on twitter.

jamwal wrote:Please do not post excerpts like that of such a recent copyrighted work without permission

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby jamwal » 12 Sep 2017 16:58

Thanks. Didn't knew

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 13 Sep 2017 12:24


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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Gaur » 27 Sep 2017 10:37

Army is opposing Black Cat commandos being stationed in Kashmir. But why?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indian-army-kashmir-nsg-black-cat-commandos-counter-insurgency/1/1056761.html

It is Kashmir's best kept secret for at least a month now. Kept under wraps is a mini National Security Guard (NSG) hub-cum-regional training centre in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K), where the Black Cats will soon be training security forces in the terror-hit region with focus on urban core operation, urban warfare and room intervention.

Sources said the decision was taken by the ministry of home affairs, but setting up of the base was kept low key. DGP Sudhir Pratap Singh confirmed that the NSG had been deployed for training purpose, but refused to comment further on it. However, the latest entrant in the trouble-torn state has caused flutter and debate within the forces. Initially brought into the Valley for operational purpose, there seemed to be an opposition from certain quarters in the army and security forces. Due to this, the NSG team has been now been limited to train security personnel of CRPF and the J&K Police.

High level sources confirmed to Mail Today that "a Company (40 personnel) of Black Cats commandos of the NSG have been camping at the CRPF pre-induction training centre in Lethapora, near Srinagar, for close to a month, though any sort of training is yet to begun".
NSG's 51 Special Action Group (SAG), tasked to carry out anti-hijack and anti-terror operations, are currently stationed in south Kashmir. A top source said "the army has been opposing to it tooth and nail" as the security forces operating in the Valley are divided on utility of Black Cats in counter-terror operations.

Despite being considered best in uniform to deal with counter-terror operations, the NSG was not called on August 26 during a suicide attack unleashed by three Jaish-e-Mohammed terrorist at the District Police Line, Pulwama. The terrorist were holed up in two blocks, but not once, did any of the forces on ground felt the need to involve the NSG, who were only a few kilometres away. An army officer deployed in counter-terror operations in south Kashmir told Mail Today, "With regards to insurgency, the army has always dealt with counter-terror operations while the NSG deals only with the operations once every few years."

A senior CRPF officer too echoed the sentiment saying, "There are already multiple agencies working in the Valley. It will lead to a further confusion if NSG is added as force multiplier." The NSG has trained state police's Special Operations Group (SOG) last December at their headquarters in Manesar. While Kashmir has largely been out of bound for NSG commandos, the initial steps may change the counter-terror scenario in the state , which has largely been infested by Pakistan-backed terror groups.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 27 Sep 2017 23:08

The NSG should be deployed in J&K and should take part in active operations.

However their jurisdiction should be limited to ops which are handled by CRPF alone. NSG should thus be the additional and more skilled muscle available on call to address specific tactical challenges. Thus, NSG will not step on Armys's shoes.

IA-SF can then focus on hinterland ops and also assist RR and infantry where required.

NSG is India's premier counter terrorist force and I see their capability being wasted while waiting for 2 terror attacks per year. Low ops tempo is not good for this force.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sid » 28 Sep 2017 04:07

Although these articles seems to indicate BS territorial fight between agencies, deployement of specialized force like NSG will only augment them.

Plus no IA officer will say that “they take part in ops once every few year”, knowing very well that SAG is manned by experienced IA personal only.

Inclusion of NSG will reduce operational fatigue of CRPF, and specially IA.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 28 Sep 2017 12:49

The NSG should be fit into the counter terrorist matrix in J&K by consulting the Army. MARCOS dett in wular is over 20 years old now, how does that work so well? Half the problems are because babus do not want to consult stakeholders before taking decisions.

NSG if deployed as say, QRT in Srinagar could take on all urban CT tasks in a particular region. ARMY SF have enough on their hands even if there are 4-5 units there (1SF, 4SF, 9SF, 22SF and Marcos)

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 28 Sep 2017 13:10

^^ Dont forget Garuds will also start rotating in soon to gain experience.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 28 Sep 2017 21:52

rkhanna wrote:^^ Dont forget Garuds will also start rotating in soon to gain experience.


We have been hearing about it, but question is whether they will take up an AOR like Marcos and execute CT ops there.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Sumair » 28 Sep 2017 23:24

NSG the premier counter terrorist force is in name only. Army has no respect for their operational capabilities. It is known in the inner circles that NSGs will never see any real action other than photo ops around our VVIPs. So the postings are very sought after and awarded almost always on nepotism bases. Two occasions when they were actually thrust into action on 7/11 and Pathankot; their performance was abysmal. This not my personal opinion but gleaned from conversations with a NIA officer who was member of investigating team into Pathankot fiasco.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 29 Sep 2017 01:49

Often, personal opinions of people seemingly in the know can be biased and misleading.

Secondly, professional pride in one's unit should not be seen as lack of respect for the other.

Sumair wrote:NSG the premier counter terrorist force is in name only. Army has no respect for their operational capabilities. It is known in the inner circles that NSGs will never see any real action other than photo ops around our VVIPs. So the postings are very sought after and awarded almost always on nepotism bases. Two occasions when they were actually thrust into action on 7/11 and Pathankot; their performance was abysmal. This not my personal opinion but gleaned from conversations with a NIA officer who was member of investigating team into Pathankot fiasco.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby vasu raya » 29 Sep 2017 01:58

There were differences in the number of terrorists shot dead as counted by NSG and NIA in the Pathankot operation other than that the NSG was successful in preventing a breakout of the terrorists across the campus by confining them to a small area until neutralized

OTOH IA lost three commandos while flushing out terrorists from EDI building in Pampore in J&K recently which can be classified as CQB operation

More important than the above debate is which of these specialized forces can play red teams in training local police forces in the metros. The red team shall not exceed eight members at any time

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby srin » 29 Sep 2017 09:14

Sumair wrote:NSG the premier counter terrorist force is in name only. Army has no respect for their operational capabilities. It is known in the inner circles that NSGs will never see any real action other than photo ops around our VVIPs. So the postings are very sought after and awarded almost always on nepotism bases. Two occasions when they were actually thrust into action on 7/11 and Pathankot; their performance was abysmal. This not my personal opinion but gleaned from conversations with a NIA officer who was member of investigating team into Pathankot fiasco.


Even if it were true (and I've no basis to say either way*), it is all the more reason then that NSG does get operational experience, no ? Because irrespective of the current state of affairs, they are the one called in, in case of a terrorist attack in major cities. This actually lends support deploying them in the valley.

*PS: I found the VVIP comment a bit strange esp if it is coming from someone in the know. After all, SAG is different from SRG, rt ? And secondly, isn't the SAG drawn from Army ?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 29 Sep 2017 12:38

Aditya G wrote:
rkhanna wrote:^^ Dont forget Garuds will also start rotating in soon to gain experience.


We have been hearing about it, but question is whether they will take up an AOR like Marcos and execute CT ops there.


From what i understand they will be embedded with 31 RR and/or Army SF and not operate on their own. Outside of that (like in the naxal areas) they will start flying with IA Helos practicing for Hot evacs - suggesting that more over the border / near the border action will become the norm.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 29 Sep 2017 12:43

Sumair wrote:NSG the premier counter terrorist force is in name only. Army has no respect for their operational capabilities. It is known in the inner circles that NSGs will never see any real action other than photo ops around our VVIPs. So the postings are very sought after and awarded almost always on nepotism bases. Two occasions when they were actually thrust into action on 7/11 and Pathankot; their performance was abysmal. This not my personal opinion but gleaned from conversations with a NIA officer who was member of investigating team into Pathankot fiasco.



Completely disagree with the statement. The cross pollination of Tactics that SF personnel take back to their units post SAG stint is immense. I have one relative you has spent time with SAG in the past. SF / SG personel routinely send personnel to NSG kill houses and instructors and vice-versa. Spend sometime with Soldiers/officers on the ground.

THe NSG SAG is a long and chequered history of CT/HRT including an Airliner Take down.

The politics of Army Vs anybody else is a different beast. With the new NSA/NSC structure they are feeling insecure (Specially with Pathakhot) and there is push back. but that is a whole different conversation.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya G » 05 Oct 2017 01:10

The Morung Express

‘September 27 firing between NSCN (K), Indian Army occurred 15 kilometer inside Myanmar’
October 1, 2017

DIMAPUR, SEPTEMBER 30 (MExN): The Konyak Union (Myanmar) has refuted the claim made by the Indian Army that it did not cross the Indo-Myanmar border to engage in a gun battle with the NSCN (K) on September 27, 2017.
 
According to a statement received from the Konyak Union (Myanmar) president S.A. Khotai and general secretary K. Honwang on Saturday, the firing between the Indian security forces and the NSCN (K) on September 27 took place between Khonsa and Langkho village, approximately 15km inside Eastern Konyak Myanmar.
 
Quoting report from Langkho villagers, it said that many unexploded bombs were found in the paddy fields of Langkho village where the gun battle allegedly took place. The location was two kilometers before reaching Langkho village and the firing occurred between 3am and 6am in the morning.
 
....

Indian Army trekked 2 hours into Myanmar: NSCN (K)

In a separate press statement, the NSCN (K) also reiterated their earlier claim that encounter between the “Indian Para Commandos and Elite Unit of NSCN/GPRN” took place deep inside Myanmar Naga area situated around 15kms away from the international boundary.
 
“…The Eastern Command have no idea at all that Langkho village is deep inside Myanmar Naga area situated around 15km away from the international boundary where the encounter took place before dawn on 27 Sept between Indian Para Commandos and Elite Unit of NSCN/GPRN,” the press statement maintained.
 
The NSCN (K) further alleged that the Indian Army soldiers had illegally trekked more than two hours deep into Myanmar and in the process had side trekked the first two frontier villages from India side-Khammoi and Loji and had already reached the outskirt of the third frontier village Langkho from where they were “halted, killed, injured and repulsed by the Naga Army.”
 
It therefore advised the Indian Army’s higher authorities to ascertain themselves of the fact that Langkho village is nowhere near the so claimed Indo-Myanmar artificial international boundary but beyond several frontier villages.
 ...

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby IndraD » 06 Oct 2017 23:13

MARCOS foil pirate attack on Indian ship in the Gulf of Aden.
MARCOS foiled attempt against an Indian bulk carrier in the Gulf of Aden. http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... -aden.html
The piracy attempt was made on the Indian ship MV Jag Amar at 12:30 pm and the INS Trishul, which was on an anti-piracy deployment in the region, responded immediately, Navy spokesperson Capt D K Sharma said.
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He said all 26 Indian crew onboard the Indian ship were safe.

The Navy's elite Marcos commandos carried out a swift operation to rescue the 85,000-tonne bulk carrier.

Capt Sharma said an AK 47, one magazine with 27 rounds, grapnels, ropes, fuel drums and ladders were recovered during the operation.

Twelve pirates on a skiff made the piracy attempt on the Indian ship.

The Indian Navy has been actively engaged in anti-piracy operations in the Gulf of Aden, a key shipping route near the southern tip of the Red Sea between Somalia and Yemen.

In April, the India and Chinese navies had rescued a merchant ship in the Gulf of Aden after it was hijacked by Somali pirates.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2017 08:40

A beautiful poem written by a hero of Surgical Strike...
https://twitter.com/shatrujeet009/statu ... 0826536960

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 11 Oct 2017 10:14

2 Garuds attached to IA KIA in J&K anti terror op

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 10:20

^^ Finally proof that Garud is operational in JK.

RIP to Casualties. wish we didnt have to find out this way

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 11 Oct 2017 10:24

Their 1st operational casuality since Pathankot attacks?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Oct 2017 10:36

This is unfortunate,feel very sad about this, whenever our soldiers, Police die.

But it is very important that Garud's get operational experience.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 11:42

Garuds from the Encounter

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 11 Oct 2017 12:06

Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby wig » 11 Oct 2017 12:19

IAF Garuds were operating with the Army for operational experience
The encounter occurred in the Hajin area of Bandipora in Jammu and Kashmir on Wednesday morning. Two Indian Air Force Garud commandos were killed in the encounter and two terrorists have also been shot dead. The Garud personnel were operating with the army for operational experience.


and this took place
"Terrorists opened fire on a joint party of 13 RR of army and SOG of Jammu and Kashmir police laying siege to Rakh (Paribal) area of Hajin Wednesday morning following inputs about the presence of about eight terrorists in the area," defence spokesperson, based in Srinagar, told The Times of India.

"As the forces were closing in, the hiding terrorists fired upon them around 5 am, resulting in injuries to jawans. Two Garud personnel were martyred in the action." Two army jawans were also injured in the encounter and shifted to 92 base hospital for further treatment, The Indian Expressquoted Director General of Press Information Bureau, KS Dhatwalia, as saying.


http://www.firstpost.com/india/encounte ... 30607.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 11 Oct 2017 13:10

sum wrote:Were they the 2 men killed in the encounter?


No. (dont think so) picture of Garuds form the Encounter. Identities no known.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 11 Oct 2017 17:47

It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:04

Here’s IAF Garud commando Sgt Milind Kishor Khairnar in battle gear. May his family in Nashik find the strength.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2017 05:11

Garud commandoes take first casualties after secretly operating in J&K for 12 years
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/g ... lties.html

Modelled on Israeli Shaldag, Garuds earn combat experience in Kashmir --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaldag_Unit

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 12 Oct 2017 13:11

krishna_krishna wrote:It was a three man team with one injured and two martyred, sad day. This points out to tactical mistake in positioning in cordon and search, this guys needs change in tactics to be good scouts


Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby Kashi » 12 Oct 2017 16:09

One setback and armchair experts are raising aspersions on tactics and capabilities.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Oct 2017 17:10

rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby sum » 12 Oct 2017 17:18

Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:45

sum wrote:Ajai Shukla claims they are around since 2005 and have even 2 HM commanders as kills in encounters


Ajai Shukla is right and wrong. They have been since 2005 for protection of capital assets. Their Involvement in COIN is more recent.

Secondly - Garuds are not "Training" with army soldiers. While our press seems to have found a new word here the real word you are looking for is embedded with Army Soldiers. They have been embedded for a while now. with 9 Para and 31RR . And for the rest of time they will continue to be embedded only. Unlike the Paras and even the MARCOS their deployment teams are smaller and their tasking more specific.

They have undergone a LONG immersion program and if it werent for the deaths you would not have heard about them.

And sorry no matter what IEx or any other newspaper is saying this WAS NOT THEIR FIRST OP in J&K.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby rkhanna » 13 Oct 2017 10:46

krishna_krishna wrote:
rkhanna wrote: Garuds have been in the Valley for a while. We dont know what went down. CASO is a very very broad term. And so is the word Ambush.

This incident so far based on public press releases does not point to any mistake (even if something did happen). The Garud unit was imbedded and under the command of an Army unit.


Garuds were with the Army for live situational training. They came in August and this is the first batch. Idea to embedded Garud Commandoes was aimed to mould them into a well-knit fighting force capable of taking on terrorists,” said a defence official.

From here:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 71290.html


yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby krishna_krishna » 15 Oct 2017 07:53

rkhanna wrote:yea no. This "defense official" is not correct.


Here is another source :
http://kashmirlife.net/iaf-commandos-ki ... my-153176/

"The six-month training for these two squads started in August, which included two-weeks of pre-induction training at Corps Battle School, Indian Express reported.

The two squads were then attached with the Rashtriya Rifles in northern Kashmir. One of the teams, which is with 13 Rashtriya Rifles battalion at Hajin, was involved in Wednesday’s operation.

The two squads currently operating with the Army in Kashmir are the first lot of Garuds undergoing this on-the-job training. This will be followed by the next batch of Garuds who will have a two-week overlap in the operational area with the current lot early next year.

The Garud force was established in September 2004 on the model of Israeli air force Special Forces Unit 5101 or Shaldag."

Do you have any other Open source info that prove that was not the case ?

I do not want to go into match with you about when Garuds started operating in the valley (they were much early however only for base defense), Sad to see two chaps loose their life (irrespective of army/navy/AF or what regiments/squadron they belong to) especially when they are part of special forces, there has to be discussion on what went wrong.

All I am trying to say is that from information available there was something wrong with combat and search op these chaps were part of.

Added Later: That Shuklow article about Garud operating in valley since '05 is funny (may be part of track thoo kebabs and scotch his literary skills are down the drain to level of DDM's), To say they were doing such ops since 2005 is laughable because till 2009-10 they were not even operational ready.They were undergoing a lot of training in this period and many of them were not good enough who subsequently got phased out.

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:53

So it is rkhanna vs the DDM...

Also why should we discuss and pass commentary on what went wrong - knowing full well we do not have the facts and never will and really do not need to know!!

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2017 11:56

Btw what weapon is Sgt Khairnar holding?


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