Siachen News & Discussion

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rajanb
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rajanb » 03 Jun 2011 14:57

cheenum wrote:
rajanb wrote: During the talks we get to know what they are thinking. More importantly, if they agree to our position, or the talks fail, both results are a victory for us. :)

during the talks if they agree with our position and even mark it in a map, and we then agree to make it a paradise of peace to Bury Arundati Roy alive, how is it a victory for us?

Even before our last soldier comes down, Pakis would have occupied it. Also Chinese too are interested in this Glacier. another tit-bit, there are huge Gold deposits detected in this region!!!


If they agree to the going the AGPL route and they show their demarcation, then we say "not acceptable" and redraw the line. Let it carry on. Conversely, we draw the line in such a way that it is unacceptable to them.

An annual meeting is hardly anything to worry about. Sadly very few biskoots and chai. But we are showning the world that we are peace-loving. :wink:

We are, aren't we? :((

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jun 2011 19:35

the Pukes don't control anything in the Glacier, their positions are in the lower reaches. What they control is the access route to K2, we should encourage a mountaineering expedition to K2 and establish a route through Siachen to K2. This will Rub their nose to the ground really hard. K2 is sort of in a no man's land without any ground presence by Desh or the Pukes. BUT it is in the Indian state (irrespective of the LOC/AGPL) of Jammu & Kashmir.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jun 2011 19:43

I noticed something interesting. In the official map of UNMOGIP - United Nations Military Observer Group
in India and Pakistan, it shows the whole state of Jammu Kashmir as one entity, it uses the Indian designation for the state. no norther areas, Baltistan, Azad Kashmir bullshit. Doesn't also say POK or IOK.

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/unmogip.pdf

it clearly demarcates the Line of Control too. what has changed for UN to depict it this way? When I first saw this map, I couldn't beleive it!!!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rajanb » 03 Jun 2011 21:50

cheenum wrote:the Pukes don't control anything in the Glacier, their positions are in the lower reaches. What they control is the access route to K2, we should encourage a mountaineering expedition to K2 and establish a route through Siachen to K2. This will Rub their nose to the ground really hard. K2 is sort of in a no man's land without any ground presence by Desh or the Pukes. BUT it is in the Indian state (irrespective of the LOC/AGPL) of Jammu & Kashmir.


So we push them back even further. Alas, I haven't seen the map. But what the hell, shove, push and be unreasonable.

I swear we are a peace loving nation. :lol:

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 03 Jun 2011 21:54

K2 is closer to/in chini held land isn't it ? How easy is it to get past the glacier and onto the access routes to K2?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby GeorgeM » 03 Jun 2011 22:06

cheenum wrote:the Pukes don't control anything in the Glacier, their positions are in the lower reaches. What they control is the access route to K2, we should encourage a mountaineering expedition to K2 and establish a route through Siachen to K2. This will Rub their nose to the ground really hard. K2 is sort of in a no man's land without any ground presence by Desh or the Pukes. BUT it is in the Indian state (irrespective of the LOC/AGPL) of Jammu & Kashmir.


Image


As you can see K2 is about approx 70 kms into pak teritory. One face of the mountain is in pak and the other face is in occupied chinese area ! So you can see it is pretty hard to control mountaineering on K2

Also there is very active climbing on K2 these days. Chacha google will help you. Chinese side is very treacherous, so all climbing is done from pak side only. So it is not eaxctly in a no mans land.

Also now you now where to concentrate on when pakis gives us one 'opportunity'. Cut off their access to chinese border and there goes Gwadar port access for China and paki's access to energy rich Central Asia (Afghan should be in our hands, hopefully)

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jun 2011 22:25

Can we use tube artillery in Siachen? if yes does IA use any? If not 155mm we should atlease have 105mm field guns and heavy mortars. Also couple of cruise missiles would be of excellent PR value.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 04 Jun 2011 07:27

http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/03/indian-a ... ssure.html

Indian army pressure
FOR most of its existence, Pakistan has struggled with establishing strong civilian governments. Repeated interruptions in the democratic process have made the military notorious for maintaining an outsized role in policymaking, especially when it comes to foreign relations, security and defence. India, on the other hand, has ostensibly made bigger strides in this regard and is routinely praised for its democracy. Conventional wisdom has held that the country`s civilian governments control its military, not the other way around. But confidential US diplomatic cables obtained through WikiLeaks suggest that the extent of this independence has been overstated. As this paper reported yesterday, the Indian army has been a key impediment to resolving the deadlock with Pakistan over Siachen. American officials have reported in these documents over the years that while the Indian prime minister has wanted to show flexibility in negotiations, pressure from the army has not allowed him to do so. While the resistance of opposition politicians and hardliners within the Congress party is also reported, that is part and parcel of a functioning democracy. What was less expected was the extent to which army buy-in would be needed for India to move forward on Siachen.

But this glacier is an uninhabited area with no economic significance. The deadlock has only resulted in increased defence expenditure and climate-related deaths of both Indian and Pakistani troops. If the Siachen issue has resulted in this level of military interference, what hope can there be for Kashmir? { :(( :(( :(( }

Extrajudicial killings and arbitrary detentions in India-administered Kashmir are one manifestation of the hold that the Indian security forces have on the area. The use of excessive force during protests last summer has been well-documented. And if the confidential material on Siachen is any indication, the civilian government may well be unable to move forward on Kashmir in the face of pressure from the Indian defence establishment.

The implications are clear: despite justified criticism of the role of Pakistan`s military in setting foreign policy, the reality is that the civilian governments on both sides have military pressure to stand up to. Both administrations also have a real desire for dispute resolution that is clearly being held back by this pressure. In these shared realities lies an opportunity: they should become a basis for establishing common ground between the two governments rather than roadblocks on the path to peace. They also indicate that both countries have work to do domestically to boost their democracies further, so that their relationship can be strengthened to more accurately reflect the true aspirations of their people.



This is a pathic attempt to create a gap between the Civilian leadership and Indian Army and blame the Army, using cables as the excuse, when the fact is TSPA has no credibility.

It links it to its 'no hope for cashmere' tells it all. TSP should aim lower, and solve Sir Creek per international norms that are clear.

Goes on to mix, 'extra judicial killings' on the same day when 3 LET militants have been killed and cache of weapons collected.
Also, it mentions 'LET as of same rank as AQ' and Rana trial is on going in Chicago. Who is going to believe that the 'peaceful demonstrations' had no strings being pulled from TSP? Leading light, a know hard liner, of hurriyat led prayers on the death of OBL.

Let it be clearly stated: The talks failed because TSPA refused to authenticate the current troop positions.

This does beg the question as to what should be done when TSPA does agree to it.
How will it should be authenticated and enforced?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 04 Jun 2011 07:55

cheenum
It is good to see someone trying to do his homework, I hope to learn a few things in the process.


cheenum wrote:Does IA have to spend 300 Crores a year or 3000 Crores a year? 3K Crores looks way too high but I saw both these numbers being bandied around by DDM.


Mentions 3 crore a day.
putnanja wrote:China fear makes India harden Siachen stand

...
Indian soldiers, after all, occupy almost all the dominating Saltoro heights, sitting as they do 2,000 feet above the Pakistan positions. The Army has also stemmed its massive haemorrhage of earlier years in the world's highest, coldest and costliest battlefield with better infrastructure and logistics in place. Harsh weather-related casualties in the treacherous terrain, initially very high, are next to negligible now, say officers.

"What is the hurry? The over Rs 3 crore it takes per day to sustain our troops in Siachen is not prohibitive. If Pakistan could violate the well-defined Line of Control during the 1999 Kargil conflict, what is the guarantee they will respect the AGPL? That is why we have been insisting on foolproof authentication of the AGPL," said an official.



cheenum wrote:I noticed something interesting. In the official map of UNMOGIP - United Nations Military Observer Group
in India and Pakistan, it shows the whole state of Jammu Kashmir as one entity, it uses the Indian designation for the state. no norther areas, Baltistan, Azad Kashmir bullshit. Doesn't also say POK or IOK.

http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/dpko/unmogip.pdf

it clearly demarcates the Line of Control too. what has changed for UN to depict it this way? When I first saw this map, I couldn't beleive it!!!


I thought UNMOGIP pulled out from Indian side a long time ago, or maybe it is bare bones.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Jun 2011 11:22

ManuT wrote:cheenum
It is good to see someone trying to do his homework, I hope to learn a few things in the process.

cheenum wrote:it clearly demarcates the Line of Control too. what has changed for UN to depict it this way? When I first saw this map, I couldn't beleive it!!!

I thought UNMOGIP pulled out from Indian side a long time ago, or maybe it is bare bones.

UNMOGIP pulled out, but its findings/reasearch stays. It is the official arm of the UNSC in J&K and any future discussion/resolutions on Kashmir will build over this. Do you remember, UN even dropped Kashmir from the list of Pending disputes in Oct/Nov 2010 (dunno if there is a connection to Obama's visit to Desh at that time?).
Thanks Manu

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Jun 2011 14:02

cheenum wrote:Can we use tube artillery in Siachen? if yes does IA use any? If not 155mm we should atlease have 105mm field guns and heavy mortars. Also couple of cruise missiles would be of excellent PR value.


There is a bofors equipped regimet supporting deployment in Siachen - apart from 130mm and 105mm guns.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Jun 2011 14:34

rohitvats wrote:There is a bofors equipped regimet supporting deployment in Siachen - apart from 130mm and 105mm guns.

Rohit, is this in the higher reaches of Siachen glacier or a base location like Thoise?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Jun 2011 15:15

No specific idea but should be at the base or someway above it.

As it is, the range table does not apply in toto to these areas as because of lower air density, the shell travels farther than expected.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby wig » 06 Jun 2011 10:58

Siachen: Frozen disengagement by Maj Gen Raj Mehta (Retd
Operation Meghdoot

For tracking how this military feat was achieved, one has to go back in time. Finding in Alpine climbing circles that Pakistan was claiming the area, Col Narendra “Bull” Kumar volunteered and was permitted to lead a fact-finding mission.



Post his path-breaking expedition in 1978 (he trekked along the Siachen from snout to source and climbed the Sia Kangri) and confirmation of Pakistani presence, Army HQ was alerted. With clinching evidence of Pakistani Special Services Group (SSG) presence detected by India’s Ladakh Scouts in 1983, the Army launched Operation Meghdoot on April 13, 1984, inducting 4 Kumaon by using the knowledge base provided by Col Kumar. IAF helicopters dropped the doughty Kumaonis at Bilafond La. Simultaneously, 4 Kumaon secured the two major passes — the Sia La and Gyong La — on foot, establishing posts that put India in command of Siachen Glacier. Today the Siachen Battalion HQ at 4,880m is named Kumar Base in honour of Col Kumar.

India, since 1984, has lost 720 soldiers, with 60 per cent falling to General Glacier. Many more have been evacuated due to the effects of serving in super high altitude. In cost terms, analysts estimate that it costs India Rs 1,200 to 1,500 crore annually to maintain its 7,000-plus manpower in the Siachen area. Our strategic interests and national pride demand that we accept this cost.

The Battle for Quaid Post

How desperately Pakistan tried to occupy the Saltoro Ridge as a mandatory prelude to capture of the Siachen Glacier is evident in their bold, surreptitious 1986 occupation by a JCO-led SSG team, of a dominating feature south of Bilafond La. The Pakistanis justifiably called it Quaid Post and the Indians, the Left Shoulder. This post, protected by a 1,500 foot high vertical foot snow wall, overlooked most Indian posts. On April 18, 1987, withering machinegun fire from it mowed down five soldiers of 5 Bihar located at the air-maintained Sonam Post. Amar, Ashok and U-Cut posts, all helicopter maintained, also became untenable. Capturing Quaid thus became very critical for the Indian Army.
Pakistani occupation of Siachen would be near impossible to evict, given their easier access to Saltoro from POK. Also, if we pull out, Pakistan would be able to have access to Aksai Chin. The reality is that complete withdrawal of the army and air force will not be possible. Indian military establishments in that area are important is not only from the strategic point of view, but are also the lifeline for civilians

The relieving battalion, 8 J&K LI, undertook this challenge. On May 29, the Commanding Officer, Col A.P. Rai, sent a ten-man patrol under 2/Lt Rajiv Pande to fix ropes for ascending Quaid. Unfortunately, the activity of rope fixing was detected and most of the patrol including Rajiv was shot. A specially selected task force of two officers, four JCO’s and 58 men under Maj (later Brig) Varinder Singh was created to capture Quaid and huge air effort expended to bring this force to area Saddle, 1000 metres away. Maj Varinder launched Operation Rajiv on June 23 and after masterminding three days and nights of superhuman effort, without food and water, constant shelling and losses of men, he located the ropes laid by Pande. Nearing the top, he launched Naib Subedar Bana Singh, the last of his four braveheart JCO’s to finish the capture of the depleted Quaid Post. Starting at 12.11 PM, on June 26, Bana and his four men finished off the job by 2 PM, shooting the last two defendants dead and launching the Indian Tricolor at 21,153 feet. Maj Varinder, though seriously wounded, followed and took charge. Quaid became Bana Post, with Bana being awarded the Param Vir Chakra.

What do India & Pak want?

Tim McGirk and Aravind Adiga in a May 4, 2005 article in Time magazine (War at the top of the world) correctly write that while India wants Pakistan to authenticate the AGPL both on the maps as well as on the ground, the latter insists on maintaining the pre—1972 troop position as agreed in the Simla Agreement. That way, say the Indians, if Pakistan does try to seize the Indian positions after a withdrawal, it would attract international condemnation. Analysts feel that Siachen should be linked to the Kashmir solution and that India demand a quid pro quo on Kashmir. The realist school opines that in case of a Pakistani occupation of Siachen, they would be near impossible to evict the, given their easier access to Saltoro from Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. An equally valid argument is that in case we pull out, Pakistan would be able to have access to Aksai Chin.

Finally, the reality is that complete withdrawal of the Army and the IAF will not be possible. Thoise (not a real name but an acronym: Transit Holding Of Indian Soldiers Establishment) is a military airfield and small village in Shyok Valley. It enables a quick inflow of men and material from the Indian mainland to Siachen. “Its importance is not only from the strategic point of view, but also as a lifeline to the civilians,” says the IAF. They are right.


Pakistan, on its part, shies away from AGPL validation, ostensibly because that would “legitimise” India’s “intrusion” into Siachen. They insist that India has broken the 1972 Shimla covenant, both arguments being contrived. Pakistan’s “China card” opines that the northern part of the glacier abuts the Shaksham valley which is under Chinese control. Hence the need to have Beijing on board. The reality is that Shaksham valley, a 5,800 sq km area located just north of the Karakoram Pass, was part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir and was illegally ceded by Pakistan to China in 1959. The Tribune editorial (The Siachen question: Playing China Card won’t help Pakistan, June 2, 2011) that Pakistan invariably brings up China when driven to a wall is spot on. The Indian positions on the Saltoro overlook Shaksgam Valley, and given the recent frenetic Sino-Pak collusion in this area, there is no reason for us to give up this strategic advantage. The specious argument that demilitarization is needed to stop global warming – the glacier is receding 10.5m annually – does not amuse India as her strategic considerations override global warming.

Siachen is not, as Tim McGirk and Aravind Adiga have written, the “low-hanging fruit” of the India-Pakistan peace process, in that it is easier to resolve than Kashmir. India and Pakistan must, on the contrary, see its resolution as a break from their current “trust deficit” relationship, and use its resolution for further peace-making. The ball is clearly in Pakistan’s court.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110606/edit.htm#6

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jun 2011 17:56

Now, let me tell you the real story of how the Indians actually came to know about the Paki plan of showing Siachen as part of Pakistan - or "cartographic aggression" as it came to be known then.

It all started with the gentleman who you see standing in that Mig-29 photo - Kunal Verma. As per him, he was trekking in Kashmir proper - IIRC, he was working for some magazine and was to cover this route which was used by Mughals to enter Kashmir. On his way, he met a tourist who he helped in the trek. It was from this tourist he got hold of the map which showed Siachen as part of Pakistan. He showed the map to his dad - who, iirc, was a brigade commander in Ladakh sector. His dad got alarmed by seeing the map and in his word, he never saw the map again nor would his dad discuss it. Rest as we say, is history. This is all there in his book on Siachen which is mentioned in main page of BR.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2011 21:01

Isn't Arvind Adiga the guy who wrote that Booker Prize crap? I thought he was SLIME personified.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 06 Jun 2011 21:36

Yes, the same person who wrote The White Tiger which won the 2008 booker. The Times article mentioned above is this - http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/50 ... story.html

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 07 Jun 2011 08:28

^^ What exactly is Shri.Adiga's relation with Siachen to write a entire article on Siachen and how India should vacate it?
He does not even have the cover of a environmentalist!!!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 07 Jun 2011 18:38

^^^^
Note excatly the same :(( :(( :(( from, this time from the Foreign Ministry and not as an editorial
If India and Pakistan cannot solve a dispute over a chunk of ice that is of little strategic value, asks Jalil Abbas Jilani, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry spokesman and one of the key diplomats in talks with India, "then how can we fix more complex issues like Kashmir?"


This was a re-read, note it makes it appear as TSPA is the one dominating the glacier.

When the fact is,
Rakesh wrote:The reason for that reluctance (to authenticate), the Indian Army believes, is that a signed map would clearly show how badly Pakistan was beaten in Siachen. Although Pakistan terms it the Siachen dispute, its forward-most positions cannot even see the glacier.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby jagbani » 12 Jul 2011 18:50

Once again Indian Army decided to send their special forces team to Siachen (the world's highest battlefield) and that my cause some trouble for Pakistan.In Past pakistan always oppose this thing but India always ignore.
Read full story:- http://www.punjabkesari.in/punjab/news/ ... 82_128469-

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 12 Jul 2011 20:03

^^
Where is SF mentioned in the article? Anyway, IA (including SF personnel) have been present in Siachen for decades...so what is the article all about?

PS: On giving the article a more attentive reading, it seems the issue is that a "civilian" mountain expedition is going to Siachen after a gap of 2 years. So nothing to do with SF who (among others) have been deployed there for decades now. :-)
Last edited by Gaur on 12 Jul 2011 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby jagbani » 12 Jul 2011 20:43

oh shit.. i think you are right not the defense but civilian going there .. Sorry for the wrong info and thanks for correct me here

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 13 Jul 2011 09:23

jagbani wrote:Once again Indian Army decided to send their special forces team to Siachen (the world's highest battlefield) and that my cause some trouble for Pakistan.In Past pakistan always oppose this thing but India always ignore.

a suggestion, for the benefit for SDRE south Yindians who are Yindi/punjabi illiterate, supply a translation of the posted article for our reading pleasures...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 13 Jul 2011 09:53

^^
Headline says " Indian army shows thumb (kind of like giving the middle finger) to Pakistan". Then the article goes on to say that IA is allowing a civilian mountain expedition to Siachen. The last civilian expedition to Siachen had occurred 2 years ago. Now Pakis are protesting. Pakistan is :(( that since Siachen is a disputed territory, allowing a civilian expedition tantamount to India claiming the land as is its own and not disputed (duh!). Indian officials counter by saying that if this lahori logic is held by, then we cannot allow any civilians even in J&K.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 13 Jul 2011 10:47

Gaur wrote:^^
Headline says " Indian army shows thumb (kind of like giving the middle finger) to Pakistan". Then the article goes on to say that IA is allowing a civilian mountain expedition to Siachen. The last civilian expedition to Siachen had occurred 2 years ago. Now Pakis are protesting. Pakistan is :(( that since Siachen is a disputed territory, allowing a civilian expedition tantamount to India claiming the land as is its own and not disputed (duh!). Indian officials counter by saying that if this lahori logic is held by, then we cannot allow any civilians even in J&K.

Tis lahori logic could easily get converted as self goal by our paki loving WKK media and pseudo secularist.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sanjeevpunj » 22 Jul 2011 16:52

Two army officers killed in Siachen bunker fire
New Delhi, July 22 (IANS)
An army major and a lieutenant were burned to death and four soldiers were injured in a fire at their bunker on the Siachen Glacier, the world's highest battlefield where the temperature dips to minus 50 degrees Celsius in winter.
The officers and men were staying in fibreglass shelters in the glacier in Jammu and Kashmir when the fire broke out Thursday morning, army sources said Friday. The shelter was completely gutted, they said, noting that a court of inquiry had been ordered.
The identity of the two deceased officers and the injured soldiers are being withheld by the army till it informs their next of kin, they said.

A very unfortunate event,my heartfelt condolences to the families of the officers.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jul 2011 18:35

Shrinivasan wrote:
Gaur wrote:^^
Headline says " Indian army shows thumb (kind of like giving the middle finger) to Pakistan". Then the article goes on to say that IA is allowing a civilian mountain expedition to Siachen. The last civilian expedition to Siachen had occurred 2 years ago. Now Pakis are protesting. Pakistan is :(( that since Siachen is a disputed territory, allowing a civilian expedition tantamount to India claiming the land as is its own and not disputed (duh!). Indian officials counter by saying that if this lahori logic is held by, then we cannot allow any civilians even in J&K.

Tis lahori logic could easily get converted as self goal by our paki loving WKK media and pseudo secularist.


Small correction. Tis lahori logic could easily get converted as self goal by our paki loving paki funded WKK media and pseudo secularist

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Ramin » 23 Jul 2011 05:45

Indian army officers killed in Siachen fire

Two Indian army officers burned to death when their shelter caught fire in the disputed Siachen glacier area of the Himalayas, the army told the BBC.

Two soldiers were injured when they tried to rescue the officers on Thursday night, an army spokesman said.

An inquiry has been ordered into how the fire started, he added.

Siachen borders the Pakistani- and Indian-administered portions of disputed Kashmir and is regarded as the world's highest battlefield.

India believes that the glacier is of vital, strategic and diplomatic value.

The two countries agreed a ceasefire deal over the Siachen glacier in 2003 but thousands of troops are deployed in the region.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14245688

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 23 Jul 2011 11:12

Aditya_V wrote:Small correction. Tis lahori logic could easily get converted as self goal by our paki loving paki funded WKK media and pseudo secularist
very true... hopefully our IB / CBI investigates these ch00Rs. We need to curb WKKs now itself, otherwise once the downward spiral in Pakiland accelerates, these guys would go on a rampage...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ManuT » 14 Mar 2012 08:07

The Siachen issue {Is it that time of the year?}

http://tribune.com.pk/story/349027/the-siachen-issue/

By Shahzad Chaudhry

Published: March 12, 2012
The writer is a defence analyst who retired as an air-vice marshal
Somewhere in 1984, India did the ‘Kargil in reverse’ on Pakistan. {Another lie, ask late Martial Law Administrator Gen Zia who thought he would sneak in} Till then, Siachen had remained an undemarcated region because of its impassibility and the Line of Control (LOC) stopped considerably short. Most mountaineering expeditions to the region were routed through the Pakistani territories. {<-- In an effrot to create *new* facts} Fearful that Pakistan might move into the area and occupy some vantage peaks, India pre-empted to do exactly the same and set into place the longest conflict at the highest altitudes in the history of warfare. Trust South Asia to indulge in platitudes of unmatchable quality even when fighting wars. The rest, as they say, is history.

While Pakistan has maintained that the natural boundary, or the ceasefire line — subsequently renamed the LOC — must go North-East to the Karakorum Pass from the point where the current demarcation ends (MJ9842), India, on the other hand, had held that the line travelled vertically North from that point. India’s claim would have placed the Karakorum Pass just across from the Indian controlled areas; an eventuality both China and Pakistan would resist. The 1972 Simla Agreement merely located the boundary ‘thence north to the glaciers’. {so what the confusion?} But then, India moved to annex the series of peaks along the Saltoro Ridge, which travels exactly North-West eating further into 3,000 Square kilometres (Kms) of the Pakistani territory.

Pakistan, holding heights lower than those in possession of India, tried a few times to dislodge the Indians but found the going heavy. Both sides now remain entrenched into hardened bunkers, physically and mentally. The area is in the phase of strategic and tactical stagnation, with the 70 Kms long glacier under the arrogated control of India. Where man or beast feared to tread, there are now oil pipelines and logistics tracks that criss-cross the region. {exactly, what was not possible earlier technology has made it possible, hence the need to be vigilant against sneaking jihadis}


Consider the consequences: as the glacial melt advances under the weight of the two armies occupying those heights, there is an established danger of both India and Pakistan rapidly galloping towards the ignominy of water-stressed nations. The existing per capita per annum water availability in Pakistan is only 1,200 cubic meters, while that for India is 1,700 cubic meters; below 1,000 cubic meters and the categorisation changes to being water-stressed. Water-stressed societies lead to enhanced poverty, disease, malnutrition and are forced into mass migrations. This creates societal instabilities which no force is able to hold against. Strife and war ensues. We need to reclaim the glaciers from the armies to restore their status as the water reservoirs of the river systems of both India and Pakistan. These river systems sustain life in South Asia as most habitations exist around these water systems or their extended distributaries.

This is then what the Bangkok meet agreed on: there is little strategic significance of the Siachen region (indeed the significance lies in the socioeconomic domain of a shared resource); without prejudice to each country’s territorial claims in the area, and without diluting in any manner their stated positions, the two sides recommend to their officialdom a joint recording of the respective force positions along the Saltoro Ridge and those occupied by Pakistan below that ridge and exchange such records. Subsequently, the region must be demilitarised under a verifiable regime and reverted to its status of 1984-ante. Even if other more enterprising initiatives as turning the glacier into a ‘peace park’ do not materialise — and those shouldn’t because we need to save this all-important-feeder for our water needs from any human intervention — there should be joint monitoring and responsibility for securing the glaciers in the North. This actually is a much broader compulsion given the vulnerability of sizeable chunks of Indian and Pakistani population centres to the sustenance of the Indus River Basin.

Then why not authenticate APGL to save the planet from Global warming?


In the last round of official discussions between the two sides, there reportedly has been a slight regression in the Indian position. If earlier India insisted on authenticating the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL), their revised stance is to convert the AGPL into an extended LOC. This is India’s maximalist position. :?: A negotiated settlement in the longer term interest of saving the two societies from turmoil will indeed be via media. The group’s recommendations based on a common understanding of the underlying determinants and vulnerabilities suggest that via media. The Pakistanis pointed to an implicit authentication of the AGPL when positions are recorded and exchanged.

The emphasis needs to be on finding work around methodologies to obviate irritable protractions. Also, common resource needs to be jointly protected and cared for. It is time to change the way we think.

Published in The Express Tribune, March 13th, 2012.


No sir, so problem with only EXPLICIT Authentication, conversion of AGPL to LOC and LOC converted to IB.
That's a minimum for letting bygones be bygones.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Mar 2012 04:22

X-post..

Indian Air Force in Wars:Jasjit Singh



Pakistan, after its first test of a nuclear device at Lop Nor with Chinese assistance in 1983, planned to take over Siachen Glacier and adjoining areas up to the Karakoram Pass (not to be confused with the Chinese built highway of the same name far to the west in Gilgit region of Kashmir).22 The Indian Army, in a pre-emptive move in early 1984 was able to just occupy the high crest marking the watershed before the Pakistan army could get to it the same day.

22 On the first anniversary of its nuclear tests, Dr Samar Mubarakmand (in charge of building the bomb) publicly stated that Pakistan had tested a nuclear device in 1983; see Gulf Today, 31 May, 1999.


India was the last power to nuclearize. All those NPAs who preach to India are all wrong. TSP already had the bomb tested in China in 1983.

Just for the record.

Air Cdre Jasjit Singh was Director of IDSA and earlier director of Air Ops in 1971. So he knows his stuff.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 14 Apr 2012 09:34

You know that something not so good is brewing if a ex-MI honco is forced to write a column warning GoI not to conceed on Siachen:
India can ill-afford to pull out from Siachen

Ever since a massive avalanche claimed over 100 Pakistani lives in Gyari near Siachen, which coincided with a cordial meeting between prime minister Manmohan Singh and president Asif Ali Zardari in New Delhi last week, there has been a surfeit of speculation and suggestions about demilitarising Siachen.

Every Indian soldier empathises with the affected Pakistani families. It was a massive, though rare avalanche and a colossal tragedy, but life in the defence forces is hazardous – much more so in Siachen, where avalanches, crevasses, frost bites and pulmonary edema are daily occurrences.

Indian troops deployed at 20,000 ft, lose 180 men on an average every year – 95 per cent of them to these causes. Pakistani troops at much lower heights of around 12,000 ft also lose an average of 100 men but half of them to our fire during their attempts to dislodge our troops. Wars are a costly affair not just in terms of money. All nations pay this price in the interest of national imperatives, as they must.

That, however, does not warrant obfuscating ground realities, historical facts and strategic issues. Facts first. India occupied Saltoro ridge in 1984 by pre-empting Pakistan’s impending occupation of Bila Fondla by a mere couple of days. India had no plans to hold the area during winter but incessant attacks by Pakistan to retake the passes compelled India to stay. Pakistan has much easier supply lines including roads and mule tracks and greater reinforcement potential in Siachen.

Indian troops take upto a week of climbing to reach their positions and are entirely helicopter maintained. In case Pakistan ever occupies these heights, we may never be able to take them again. The LoC was demarcated upto Pt (NJ 9843), from where it was to continue north to the glaciers. Saltoro Ridge connects NJ 9842 to a point exactly north of it after taking a minor easterly detour, which in fact is territorially advantageous to Pakistan. In practice, boundaries always adhere to geographical logic.

For India, Saltoro Ridge forms the only defensive bulwark against China, overwhelming the Nubra and Shyok river valleys in Ladakh, and if we vacate, Pakistan can do likewise. If anything, Pakistan must recognise that we have not transgressed into the northern areas of Gilgit – Baltistan which historically belonged to the Kingdom of Mahraja Hari Singh, and do not legally belong to Pakistan even today. This is an area of great strategic importance to both countries as this enables the only possible surface connectivity between India and Afghanistan. There is no historical, political or military justification for Pakistan to deny us the right to be there. Yet, year after year Pakistan has launched attacks to dislodge Indian forces from Saltoro.




In fact we came pretty close to losing our dominance in 1988. Then Brig Pervez Musharraf was commanding the SSG Brigade at Skardu and this author headed the Military Intelligence in the Corps HQ at Srinagar. A chance interception of telephonic conversation between a Pakistani captain and his wife alerted us. Close observations of Pakistani movements and a detailed intelligence appreciation of possibilities led us to conclude that a major attack by more than one SSG Brigade against the central glacier was imminent.

That appeared too audacious. Senior commanders and intelligence experts were not prepared to endorse this assessment. But the Pakistan Army has never lacked audacity even in deceit. Only professional insistence by the author persuaded the Army Chief, General Sunderji, to order precautionary reinforcements. The attack came exactly as predicted and, Musharraf having got a bloody nose could do only two things. First, he profusely abused his troops who had indeed fought bravely and second he pledged to avenge his defeat, which eventually manifested in the form of Kargil.



President Nixon has been quoted to highlight how India was forever inclined to marginalise its territorial peripheries. Jawaharlal Nehru put faith in the Chinese professions of ‘Hindi Cheeni Bhai Bhai’, and oblivious to the crucial strategic significance of Aksai Chin, gifted it away to China as a desolate area where not a blade of grass grew.
There has been much motivated talk of Manmohan Singh earning passage to history through the award of a Nobel Peace Prize. Can India permit him to follow his ambition by gifting away Siachen to Pakistan as a great confidence building measure and saving both India and Pakistan a few thousand crore rupees apiece?

Our defence forces will not be party to the proposal. Insha Allah.
:-o :-o

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 14 Apr 2012 12:24

Saltoro, not Siachen
On April 13, 1984, India began its most audacious military campaign when troops of the Kumaon Regiment were pushed up the heights of Siachen glacier. It is now 28 years to the day India launched ‘Operation Meghdoot’, the official name given to the military campaign on the world’s highest battleground. By sending troops in April, prematurely in mountaineering parlance, India wrested the initiative from Pakistan which had planned to send its soldiers sometime later in May 1984. By the time they began their climb the Indian Army was already ensconced on the heights, with the Indian Air Force undertaking air supply sorties. In the 28 years since that day, the Army has only increased its presence on the heights, gaining territory in the process. And the Air Force has only increased its expertise and experience in maintaining troops at those heights. Army aviation has also been an invaluable contributor to the war effort in Siachen.

In the early hours of April 7, an avalanche swept over the battalion headquarters of the Pakistani Army’s 6 Northern Light Infantry at Ghyari, located at the south-western end of the spur leading out of Bilafond La. The casualties are the highest the Pakistani Army has suffered in a single incident during peacetime. And it is peacetime in Siachen since India and Pakistan declared a ceasefire in 2003. In an Army-inspired state like Pakistan, the casualties were serious enough for voices to demand the postponement of President Asif Ali Zardari’s Easter Sunday ziarat at Ajmer. The counter voices declared that his visit would also raise the long pending issue of a deal between India and Pakistan on Siachen glacier — a chimera that has long captured the imagination of commentators in both countries. There is a belief in the analyst community of both countries that this is a futile conflict which can easily be solved if the political authorities display sufficient will and resolve.

A frequently published Indian analyst has called it a “particularly muscular drama re-enacted by Indian soldiers on the heights” and which neared resolution during the time of Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto. “But for one reason or another, especially after Pakistan’s Kargil misadventure in 1999, the Indian Army has succeeded in sabotaging the very thought from reaching its logical conclusion in the Indian political establishment,” she added. And completed the invective about the Indian Army’s disruption of peace by declaring, “The point here is that it is not up to the Army to tell India’s elected leaders where and how and under what circumstances it will fight. That decision must surely rest with the civilian leadership.”

A Pakistani analyst of similar frequency has also followed the same tack, claiming, “Pakistan didn’t start this conflict. Pakistan has wanted to end it. A possible agreement is already there. The elephant in the room is the Indian Army. It wants the Actual Ground Position Line marked and documented before it would withdraw. We cannot do it because we maintain that India aggressed and should not have been where it is”. Both analysts pretty much reflect the prevailing wisdom around this, the most inexplicable, conflict. The bull in the china shop is always the Indian Army, and the political leadership is helpless before its adamant attitude. Simple enough to declare, simple enough to write, but not simple enough to defend, for no conflict has origins that can be simplified to such clichés.

The Siachen conflict began because of incomplete cartographic commitments between India and Pakistan. In delineating and describing the Line of Control, military and diplomatic officials of both countries erred in ending the narrative at NJ 9842, followed by ‘thence north to the glaciers’, the most oft-quoted cartographic blunder. Even the Simla Agreement repeated the same error, and this despite the first battles already fought over the heights north of the Srinagar-Leh highway. International mountaineering expeditions then began to seek permission from Islamabad to climb in this area, all on the basis of American maps that depicted Siachen as under Pakistan’s control. Protests and counter-protests at the diplomatic level remained unanswered. Thus began the military stakes in the conflict. It took a late August 1983 coming together of the Ladakh Scouts and the Pakistani Army’s Special Services Group that finally clinched it for both countries.

Preparations began immediately for the eventual escalation during the next climbing season. Except that the Indian Army moved in before the Pakistani Army could. Bullets now came to be traded where once words were used to carry the message. In the process, as in all conflicts with Pakistan, India has only gained ground — most notably in 1987 when the 8 Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry bested the Pakistani Army’s SSG at insurmountable heights, using extraordinary mountaineering skills. That action so bruised the ego of then Brigadier Pervez Musharraf that in 1999 he launched the Pakistani Army into ‘Operation Badr’ to take the heights of Kargil. The motivation was to occupy the heights, deny India road supply movement to Leh, and in the process squeeze the Army out of its heights in Siachen. None of it worked, of course. And India continues to dominate the heights, in Kargil and across Siachen.

The Indian Army is not on Siachen but to its west, on the Saltoro ridgeline. This is where the bull in the china shop comes into play. The occupation of heights by the Army has followed the principle laid out in the agreement delineating the Line of Control — ‘thence north to the glaciers’. For the Indian positions from NJ9842 are pretty much along the line north. This is now called Actual Ground Position Line; the bugbear in Pakistan’s claims, for it leaves Siachen well to the east. Pakistan’s interpretation of ‘thence north to the glaciers’ is actually in an east-north-east direction, ending on the Karakoram Pass. It barely touches the southern end of the Siachen glacier. The dispute, then, is really about what constitutes ‘north to the glaciers’. And in that disagreement over the direction of the LoC rests the solution to the Siachen conflict. Since Pakistan does not want to accept the AGPL principle, and India does not want to vacate without a formal written agreement, the dispute lingers. The Kargil conflict was thrust on India despite an agreement on what constituted the LoC in that sector. Here, however, there is yet to be an agreement.

This then raises the next doubt — about the inviolability of agreements. If past experience is anything to go by, there is every reason to stay on the heights. For, after all, it is the business of the military professional to choose the timing, location, and method of the next operation. The political leadership can only give the green light.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 14 Apr 2012 12:38

ramana wrote:X-post..
Indian Air Force in Wars:Jasjit Singh
22 On the first anniversary of its nuclear tests, Dr Samar Mubarakmand (in charge of building the bomb) publicly stated that Pakistan had tested a nuclear device in 1983; see Gulf Today, 31 May, 1999.


India was the last power to nuclearize. All those NPAs who preach to India are all wrong. TSP already had the bomb tested in China in 1983.

The above citation is to an interview by Dr. Samar Mubarakmund to Gulf Today. There is another independent proof in 'Frontline Pakistan' by the noted Pakistani author Zahid Hussain. He cites his own article written in Newsline in c. 1991 itself. He says
According to a former senior Pakistani official who was associated with the country's nuclear programme from its inception, by 1983 Pakistan had achieved full nuclear capability.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby harbans » 14 Apr 2012 12:55

From a 2007 report:

posting to record deliberate obfuscation regarding Indian casualities in Siachen. 2 reports one started by Rediff by a Paki writer and duly copied without thinking by an IA person Daily Pioneer in quoting a falsehood that India loses 185 men a year in Siachen:

It is after two decades of occupation that the army is nearing a zero casualty syndrome on the Siachen glacier, with no casualty being recorded due to cold.

With the availability of state of art medicare facilities, best battle field robes and equipment, high living conditions and Indo-Pak border truce since November 2003, the Siachen casualties have declined.



http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... casualties

Now the IA casualities due to cold etc at Siachen are zero. Zilch. So why does the author borrow from the Paki Officers rediff article and quote this crap..

Indian troops deployed at 20,000 ft, lose 180 men on an average every year – 95 per cent of them to these causes.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby MN Kumar » 14 Apr 2012 14:50

keshavchandra wrote:Saltoro, not Siachen
A frequently published Indian analyst has called it a “particularly muscular drama re-enacted by Indian soldiers on the heights” and which neared resolution during the time of Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto. “But for one reason or another, especially after Pakistan’s Kargil misadventure in 1999, the Indian Army has succeeded in sabotaging the very thought from reaching its logical conclusion in the Indian political establishment,” she added. And completed the invective about the Indian Army’s disruption of peace by declaring, “The point here is that it is not up to the Army to tell India’s elected leaders where and how and under what circumstances it will fight. That decision must surely rest with the civilian leadership.”


Whos this so called analist motarma?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby svinayak » 14 Apr 2012 22:08

A Pakistani analyst of similar frequency has also followed the same tack, claiming, “Pakistan didn’t start this conflict. Pakistan has wanted to end it. A possible agreement is already there. The elephant in the room is the Indian Army. It wants the Actual Ground Position Line marked and documented before it would withdraw. We cannot do it because we maintain that India aggressed and should not have been where it is”. Both analysts pretty much reflect the prevailing wisdom around this, the most inexplicable, conflict. The bull in the china shop is always the Indian Army, and the political leadership is helpless before its adamant attitude. Simple enough to declare, simple enough to write, but not simple enough to defend, for no conflict has origins that can be simplified to such clichés.


Looks like the analysts have been bought by the US and WKK groups.
The Indian history is about giving away border regions and areas after war and regretting it again.

The author is the editor.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 14 Apr 2012 22:57

MN Kumar wrote:
A frequently published Indian analyst has called it a “particularly muscular drama re-enacted by Indian soldiers on the heights” and which neared resolution during the time of Rajiv Gandhi and Benazir Bhutto. “But for one reason or another, especially after Pakistan’s Kargil misadventure in 1999, the Indian Army has succeeded in sabotaging the very thought from reaching its logical conclusion in the Indian political establishment,” she added. And completed the invective about the Indian Army’s disruption of peace by declaring, “The point here is that it is not up to the Army to tell India’s elected leaders where and how and under what circumstances it will fight. That decision must surely rest with the civilian leadership.”


Whos this so called analist motarma?

Jyoti Malhotra

An embattled Zardari shows the way

More Gems from OpEd
Surely, a signature on the Siachen issue by an Indian Prime Minister in Pakistan could be the ultimate reiteration of India's political and civilian supremacy over its military establishment.

The point here is that it is not up to the Army to tell India's elected leaders where and how and under what circumstances it will fight. That decision must surely rest with the civilian leadership, in this case Dr. Singh.

It's easy to see that a step-by-step approach, closely coordinated and perfectly balanced, can be the key to breaking the deadlock that currently defines the bilateral relationship: Action on the Mumbai terror accused in return for agreements on Siachen and the maritime border at Sir Creek. A continuation of the conversation on Afghanistan that is said to have begun on Easter Sunday. A revival of the conversation on Kashmir in which both sides also agree to transform the currently pathetic and bureaucratically rigid travel and trade dispensation across the Line of Control.

Meanwhile, as just desserts, India would be happy to blow up its own tightly-controlled trading and investment regimes, long ago specially created for Pakistan only. It would be far too easy to take Pakistan — as well as Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka — along on the ride to higher economic growth.

The question is, do Dr. Singh and Asif Ali Zardari have the courage to stand up to the naysayers in their own countries? If Mr. Zardari's panache has hogged the headlines so far, it would be in keeping with Dr. Singh's quieter character to lend a hand that stabilises the game. Whether or not the two become South Asia's political pilgrims of choice in the coming months, the rest of us will certainly be watching their progress.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 14 Apr 2012 23:36

Pakistan, after its first test of a nuclear device at Lop Nor with Chinese assistance in 1983
China had provided nuclear weapons and personnel for manning/maintaining them. That test was a end user test. And the only Pakistani effort in that bomb was shameless begging.

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Re:

Postby kunalverma » 15 Apr 2012 07:23

karan wrote:Does anyone else think that, Instead of Unkil it may be china behind all this faracas. Is pakistan the real beneficiary of this withdrawl or is it chinese who will ultimately benefit from it. Right Now, Our position give us some advantage over karakoram HWY. If we leave and pakistani's move in, what if Mushy will immediately gifts that area of chinese, it makes it defacto territory of china, where chinese will breath down our neck. Chinese will have direct road access to Arabian Gulf, they will be able to move men and material at rapid pace. IA will be stretched thin just to counter chinese threat, that will reduce pressure on western front, pakis will have more freedom, renewed vigor to escalate Jihadism..


Siachen along with DBO has given us some breathing space in the area north of the Shyok River Valley. The real hard part was to get in there and dig in, which over the last 28 years we have managed to do, mainly because of each and every soldier's contribution who served there. In all the forums where people now suggest Siachen should be abandoned, the only enemy seen is Pakistan. It's amazing how people don't realize that the northern and eastern flanks of the Glacier are actually held by China.

BTW, came across a fairly detailed review of my book, The Long Road to Siachen: The Question Why by Bob McKerrow, a New Zealander who has done some incredible work in the Antartica and more recently with the Red Cross in Indonesia after the Tsunami disaster. This review was published a couple of weeks ago, after an avalanche killed 120 plus soldiers in the region.

http://bobmckerrow.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... s.html?m=1


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