Siachen News & Discussion

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 May 2012 13:09

Kakkaji wrote:I am old enough to remember early 1972, when we thought that Pakistan was decisively beaten, broken up, and shall never be able to rise again. We thought we needed to make concessions, to earn their confidence, to help them become good, peaceful neighbours forever. So we returned their 93,000 POWs, without asking them to give up their claims on J&K and recognizing the LOC as the international border. Bhutto promised that he will prepare his people to accept that outcome. He asked us to trust him. Our newspapers were full of articles with arguments similar to what sudeepj ans ShouryaT are making in this thread. "Trust them, be generous, it will be all peace and 'bhaichara' for ever".

So, what happened? I was a teenager then, I am a middle-aged man now. Where is the peace and 'bhaichara' that I was promised in return for the concessions?

We make territorial concessions to Pakis now, I won't be around 40 years from now to see it, but today's Indian teenagers will still be waiting, as middle-aged men, for peace and 'bhaichara' from Pakistan.JMT

Excellent post, thanks for sharing.

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 May 2012 13:15

rohitvats wrote:Well, if after all this debate, if people feel that Siachen has no strategic importance, then, I guess, we need to lay the debate to rest. People still see Siachen in isolation - while the fact is that the defenses in the area comprising of Siachen-Turtok (SSW)-SSH-Batalik-Chorbat La-Kargil-DBO Complex(SSN) are interconnected.

Awesome post! What I find fascinating is that the loss of heights in the Khyber, Karappa etc regions was the cause that we were attacked repeatedly , with ease, after the 11th century A.D.

Infact the Brits had some of their worst defeats in the Khyber region and so the did the Mughals. Akbar lost Birbal in the Khyber region and Aurangjeb too lost many a generals in Karappa and other passes.

The history of this region before their islamization is a fascinating one.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 May 2012 13:23

^^^He who controls the passes in the mountains, controls the movement. The whole bloody Great Game was about the passes and routes leading to India - Afghan Wars, control on Persia, control right up to Constantinople, Wakhan corridor being given to Afghanistan, the control over Gilgit-Baltistan, Hunza-Nagar Campaign, every thing was about controlling the routes and passes into India. The political skull drudgery of the British was a means to achieve this control.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 26 May 2012 13:34

wonderful post..rohit.... now i think there should not be any confusion regarding the stategic importance of siachin.....
no we can focus on how we can make our soldiers life more easy by introducing new equipments for preventing/monitoring any natural disasters which i beleive DRDO is already working on it..

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 26 May 2012 14:38

rohitvats,
That was a very informative post. Much appreciated.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 May 2012 14:41

@rohit

Very clear post on why Saltoro/Siachen should be held.

SandeepS · Post by **SandeepS** » 26 May 2012 16:25

rohitvats wrote:....

Let us stop these argument about "no strategic importance" of Siachen and that we can defend the Valleys w/o controlling the heights. If we loose Saltoro, we'll need to control the next series of high ground - let us be very clear about it and the whole process of Siachen 1984 will repeat itself.

Rohit, you are gold standard in terms of your research, analysis and then articulating it. I hope the people who are keen for Indian forces to vacate the post at least have a discussion based on facts and rational contingency plans, rather than wishful thinking and getting swept away in psych-ops. PA has an admirable track record in running circles around decision-makers (not only Indians but others too) and this is just one of those opportunities where PA are hoping that they will occupy without firing a shot.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 26 May 2012 16:35

Rohit...can u mark Bahadur complex on the map...

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 26 May 2012 16:52

With the type of indoctrination that PA gets, there is no way for a normal person to not turn psycho. The PA can not and will never let there be peace since its entire raison d'etre will cease to exist

Siachen provides them a perfect opportunity to keep the cauldron hot. In any case hope we all remember the age old saying about the tommy tail never straightening even after many years of attempt

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 May 2012 17:11

@manjgu - the blue colored area towards east of Chulung La:

rohitvats wrote:For reference:

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 26 May 2012 17:22

sudeepj wrote:
sameer_shelavale wrote: Since Pakistan lost Ghyari post, you are typing same lines with different grammar. Did you get all the enlightenment because of sufferings of your brethren ?
People have blown up your logic line by line, but if you still keep typing same things in somewhat different words, all forums call it "Troll".
If you have concluded that your opinion is realty and pure analysis, then you will not see any logic or reality in others.
Once again, you have no point to make, except abuse.. please wipe off the spittle from the screen, grab some coffee and take it easy.

sameer is spot on with his analysis of your posts. Your arguments have been torn to pieces at least a dozen times every day, but you say that those opposing your viewpoint have "no arguments" and characterise their arguments as "abuse".

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 May 2012 17:23

Gentlemen, thank you for the kind words. If the maps and write-up have been of any help to readers on BRF, it was an effort worth undertaking. People are entitled to their opinion - but let those be informed opinions.

I will be posting a short analysis of defense imperatives of Sub-Sector-North (SSN) - DBO Complex in some time. That will be final link in understanding the interconnected nature of geography and defense in the area - that why holding the Nubra-Shyok Valley is of utmost importance and how this region is the lynch-pin of defense in the region. As LTG Katoch said, loose Nubra-Shyok Valley, and your next line of defense will lie on Ladakh Range.

Someone said earlier that Shaksgam Valley is useless and does not offer any advantage - then why did China ask for this region when boundary was settled in 1963 between China and Pakistan? From a pure military point of view, Shaksgam Valley gives depth to the Tibet-Sinkiang Road. Look G219 on the map and its location with respect to Shaksgam Valley. There is a reason the Chinese claim line rests where it is Ladakh - Chinese control all the passes from our side to get to Aksai Chin and areas beyond. This gives depth and security to the Tibet-Sinkiang Road. Holding Saltoro gives us that depth - By giving up Saltoro and providing PA opportunity to be that much closer to Nubra and Shyok Valleys, we loose this depth.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 26 May 2012 17:36

sudeepj wrote:Things are changing.. You cant have misbegotten pajeros and mercedes running on the streets of Delhi and at the same time ask young men (who see these totems of sin day in and day out) without basic human facilities like drinking water, safe latrines, education etc. to give up their lives in some God forsaken crevasse.

More specious arguments for a viewpoint shown to be manifestly wrongheaded (at best).

The people of India and those who serve in the Indian Armed Forces do not condition their commitment to protecting our borders on either (i) the level of corruption in our government, or (ii) the quality of our social/civic services.

As far as I can tell you have access to clean drinking water, safe latrines (the contents of which find their way to these pages every day), and an education, and yet come up with a dozen poor excuses every day to not defend our country. Self defeating argument at best ...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 May 2012 18:58

Was reading the FORCE Mags May edition - It seems Praveen Sawhney has a serious beef with the IA. his article on Siachen is not only factually incorrect in lot of places but it seems there is no sense of geography; the article seems to be written with complete suspension of common sense with only one objective - to discredit IA on Siachen. And it uses words like "Hoon's stupid plan" (referring to LTG Hoon, 15 Corps Commander during launching of Op. Meghdoot).....as someone who has access to people in IA and inputs, one hopes people like him can come up with detailed and informative articles. But it seems PS uses his magazine to snipe at the army - in spite of the fact that his own article is really pedestrian and for it to have been written by an ex-IA officer is really shameful. I mean, one expects at least an ex-IA officer to understand the nuances of the same better. He likes to use big words like geo-politics, strategy, logistics etc but he himself does not seem to understand anything about them.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 26 May 2012 19:10

eklavya wrote:
sudeepj wrote:As far as I can tell you have access to clean drinking water, safe latrines (the contents of which find their way to these pages every day),

Great line..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 May 2012 19:11

Siachen – Bravery Beyond Compare
Maj Gen Raj Mehta, AVSM,VSM(Retd)

Excerpt:

From Quaid Post, as the Indians would later find out, one could see 80 km around; indeed, almost the entire Saltoro Range including Indian posts like Amar and Sonam, which could only be supplied by helicopter. The Pakistanis could therefore prevent the supply of these posts as well as interdict any movement by accurate fire. In fact, on 18 April, 1987, firing from Quaid resulted in the death of a JCO and five soldiers at Sonam. It wasn’t just that. Sensing that a new battalion had come in, the Pakistanis carried out incessant shelling, causing casualties to the battalion in terms of precious lives lost. It thus became necessary to capture this post for the safety of our men and supporting helicopters.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 May 2012 22:01

SudeepJ, If the shoe fits wear it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 May 2012 22:10

actually when someone starts bringing in toilets and drinking water then they have nothing else to say about the strategic important of the place

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 May 2012 22:48

rohitvats wrote:Was reading the FORCE Mags May edition - It seems Praveen Sawhney has a serious beef with the IA. his article on Siachen is not only factually incorrect in lot of places but it seems there is no sense of geography; the article seems to be written with complete suspension of common sense with only one objective - to discredit IA on Siachen. And it uses words like "Hoon's stupid plan" (referring to LTG Hoon, 15 Corps Commander during launching of Op. Meghdoot).....as someone who has access to people in IA and inputs, one hopes people like him can come up with detailed and informative articles. But it seems PS uses his magazine to snipe at the army - in spite of the fact that his own article is really pedestrian and for it to have been written by an ex-IA officer is really shameful. I mean, one expects at least an ex-IA officer to understand the nuances of the same better. He likes to use big words like geo-politics, strategy, logistics etc but he himself does not seem to understand anything about them.

Are there any lawyers on this forum? Can someone file a litigation against Swamy for being stupid or malicious or both?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 26 May 2012 22:49

@Peter I guess you mean Sawhney?

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 May 2012 23:06

prahaar wrote:@Peter I guess you mean Sawhney?

Yes! Though frying both asses is not a bad preposition!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 May 2012 23:28

Threatening legal action etc is long drawn and difficult to continue. Besides its cowardly. Should refute it.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 May 2012 00:24

About Kayani "He is not on Siachin, they have been fooling their people that they are on Siachin, They are on the west of Saltoro Ridge."

Siachin "We are sitting on commanding heights, we would be fools to vacate it".

General Shri V.K. Singh:

http://www.timesnow.tv/General-VK-Singh ... 402930.cms

PS: The whole interview is there on this link in 5 parts.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 27 May 2012 01:02

@Rohit: please note that DBO and chushul etc. are well to the west of the Chinese claim line. I.e. they are in areas that China has not claimed. When their strategic interests are served by the road connecting Tibet and Xinjiang, of what possible use these outposts and will be to them is an open question. Further, these posts again are figuratively speaking "with their backs to the wall" - the wall in this case being mountains. There is no room for maneuver and supply lines are tenuous. These posts only serve a political purpose, no military one. In fact, this whole area, that has sucked up divisions worth of soldiers, is supported on tenuous links, with the enemy having better supply lines. This is not some kind of dagger or launch point from where a thrust can be made into the enemy's soft areas, it is more like a Chickens neck waiting to be wrung in case of conflict. Further, politically, these areas are of little importance. China's main demands are along Arunachal and Pakistans along the valley. The logic of occupy the passes, then the peaks that abut the passes, then the higher peaks and so on will eventually make you sit on all the mountain tops in the region.. This when no military objective can be achieved via the passes any way.

@Sridhar: Any peace agreement will have concessions/climbdowns by both sides. You are mistaken in your belief that India will not have to climb down on any issue at all for a final settlement of the border. Even the US had to institute a marshall plan after it smashed the axis powers. At what time have Pakistani armies in Bakistan (West Pakistan) been smashed that you think we are in a position to dictate terms to Pakistan?

BTW, who were these 'last set of people' and why are they not exactly 'paragons of virtue' ?

Do I need to remind you about the characters apt to chanting "sui ki noke ke barabar bhoomi" (will not give land the size of a needlepoint)..?

@Ramana ji, you have decided that the tone of debate on the forum is to be one from the gutter - where accusations of 'traitor' etc. will be thrown about freely. You dont care what the political goals of the war were, you dont care what strategies were adopted/needed to achieve these goals, your interest seems to be in calling people traitors. Have fun with the nice echo chamber you have set up.

skher · Post by **skher** » 27 May 2012 01:39

rohitvats wrote: Someone said earlier that Shaksgam Valley is useless and does not offer any advantage - then why did China ask for this region when boundary was settled in 1963 between China and Pakistan? From a pure military point of view, Shaksgam Valley gives depth to the Tibet-Sinkiang Road.

"Not a blade of grass grows in Aksai Chin" - Nehru

"Nothing grows here ..should it be cut off or given away to somebody else?" - Mahavir Tyagi, MP.

Quite frankly, I'm humble SDRE so cannot understand the 'uselessness' of any territory/specialty in any drastically competitive event; such as War.

Kargil and 1962 were a bitter fight to the end to reclaim one by one many 'useless' peaks.
We believe we inherited these mountains lawfully from British India and the Instrument of Accession; and being 70% shareholder of the Himalayas as of June 1948.

On topic, Shaksgam Valley is centrally placed - Karakoram Highway and the erstwhile Silk Route conjoin here.Hence, it is very useful.

The Tibetans (not vocalized yet) and the Taiwanese/Chinese all have spiritual or historical claims to the entirety of the Himalayan territories.
All have individually fought wars in the past against Ladakh/Sikkim/Bhutan/Nepal/Garhwal etc. to restore their respective mandates.

In light of the above, the Rose Garden is a crucial outpost in the absence of Shaksgam Valley.The valley is unlikely to be ceded back by China; as per the below agreement:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Sikh_War

The Chinese and the Sikhs signed a treaty in September 1842, which stipulated no transgressions or interference in the other country's frontiers.

“On this auspicious occasion, the second day of the month Asuj in the year 1899 we —- the officers of Lhasa, viz. firstly, Kalon Sukanwala, and secondly Bakshi Sapju, commander of the forces of the Empire of China, on the one hand, and Dewan Hari Chand and Wazir Ratnu, on behalf of Raja Gulab Singh, on the other —- agree together and swear before God that the friendship between Raja Gulab Singh and the Emperor of China and Lama Guru Sahib Lassawala will be kept and observed till eternity; for the traffic in shawl, pasham, and tea. We will observe our pledge to God, Gayatri, and Pasi. Wazir Mian Khusal Chu is witness.”

Source:The Sino-Indian Border Disputes, by Alfred P. Rubin, The International and Comparative Law Quarterly, Vol. 9, No. 1. (Jan., 1960), pp. 96-125.

The Chinese are likely to say that are honour bound not to interfere in Shaksgam; and are merely exercising transit rights for transport of goods.

In the 1963 agreement, Pakistan is; partly recognised by the Chinese; as the legal successor to the Sikh confederacy/British India, pending final control over the Punjab & J&K.The agreement,according to the Chinese, only reiterated the already sanctioned use of transit rights.
The historical non-response to the British note/Ayub note can also be justified as abeyance to the non-interference clause, which was also a general commitment in Panchsheel.

Siachen is a cold "lesson" taught to all Indian soldiers such that they can separate between China's & Pakistan's qualities/methods from their common motive of containing India together.

China is no Tribal Warfare Association.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 27 May 2012 01:50

sudeepj wrote:@Sridhar: Any peace agreement will have concessions/climbdowns by both sides. You are mistaken in your belief that India will not have to climb down on any issue at all for a final settlement of the border.

We know that Siachen is at the top of your wishlist for territory that India should hand over to Pakistan. Do please tell us what other Indian territory you would like to be handed over to Pakistan.

sudeepj wrote:Even the US had to institute a marshall plan after it smashed the axis powers.

I think you have been over-dosing on the Murree beer. As well as our land, you want India to also hand over our money to Pakistan ...

Maybe if India has as many Armed Forces in Pakistani territory as the US had in Germany post WWII, it might be worth a thought (and no more). I would be prepared to pay for the war crimes trials of 60+ years of Pakistani Army leadership for their crimes against humanity.

sudeepj wrote:@Ramana ji, you have decided that the tone of debate on the forum is to be one from the gutter

You seem to be very familiar with gutters and latrines. I think the game is nearly up ...

sudeepj wrote: - where accusations of 'traitor' etc. will be thrown about freely.

Hardly for free .... it is reward for a great effort. Take your pick ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and ... med_Forces

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 May 2012 02:01

searched last two pages of this thread

for traitor and guess what??

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2012 02:09

Go back a few more. Many of these are not just for me and/or SudeepJ but to Brig Kanwal too.

Who are these guys to call us traitors and other like epithets and why is this board tolerating it?

I am not even listing many other posts, who's only intent seems to be to shove the discussion to a gutter level.

Bheeshma wrote:The F**king idiots crying crocodile tears for Indian soldiers in siachen are just snake oil merchants. The retired brig has either gone senile or is simply a traitor who needs to be taken care off. Most of his arguments for demilitarization are bogus.

Vipul wrote:What, not a single post still by WKK's aka modern jaichands advocating that we willingly burn our hands in the spirit (hic) of bhaichara?
Ghor Kalyug Onlee!!!!

Manish_Sharma wrote: You Siachin withdrawal supporters! I hate you! I find you disgusting now - build CBMs with me instead of reporting/arguing against me.

Bheeshma wrote:I doubt it. They are obviously too stupid or too much of traitors to ever see the porki perfidy. Anyway looks like even porkis have shut up about Siachen. I really hope India postpones the talks on Siachen indefinitely citing domestic compulsions or some other excuse.

Bheeshma wrote:I am not sure why we are letting these traitors continue this discussion any further.

Bheeshma wrote:LoL I am amazed that the so called peaceniks and WKK's (or traitors as I actually think of them) have come down to cheap B-grade movie level dramabazi.

Vipul wrote:I am not sure if someone is Paki or is actively propagating its POV but one thing is crystal clear:
The nonsensical argument that in the event of a conflict due to pakistani occupation of Siachen after Indian withdrawal, the number of Indian lives lost will be less then those being caused by India's continous reign there and hence india should take the chance and vacate it sounds too much like a smooth talking paki making a pitch for it and hoping that easily taken-in Indians(look at the track record) will fall for it.

Added and for the record. Our PM's call is for Siachen to be a "Mountain of Peace". Now, what will people call him, if there is indeed an action of some sort for a CBM on Siachen?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 May 2012 02:15

Everytime some people open their mouth they put burden and obligations on India . India gets nothing in return from the mortal enemy working hard to destroy India , even at the cost of its own well being. The destruction of the State of Pakistan is in the interest of India and Pakistani people. Siachen withdrawl only prolong paki state 's miserable life. Pakjabi state represents civilizatioanls enemity and it must be decapitated on very first possible oppertunity to serve the long term interest of Hindustan.
Siachen withdrawl weaken us and embolden them. No reason for Indians to handover the victory to Paki Jehadi Army. Its plain stupid and foolish to trust the enemy whose whole rational to exist consist of destoyring us.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 May 2012 02:22

It will make Paki happy here!
Body of a soldier recovered from Gayari
http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-51174 ... rom-Gayari

SKARDU: The body of a soldier, trapped in Gayari sector of the Siachen glacier, has been recovered, Geo News reported.According to sources, rescue operation is continuing to reach out to the 124 trapped soldiers hit by an avalanche on April 07.The body has been shifted to hospital.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 27 May 2012 02:35

Manish_Sharma wrote:About Kayani "He is not on Siachin, they have been fooling their people that they are on Siachin, They are on the west of Saltoro Ridge."

Siachin "We are sitting on commanding heights, we would be fools to vacate it".

General Shri V.K. Singh:

http://www.timesnow.tv/General-VK-Singh ... 402930.cms

...

Thanks for sharing, it seems part 4 and 5 were uploaded later.

"Kiya-nahi's army is not even on Siachen."

Gen VKS is a man of shaped by army. He doesn't fit in the Yes-man brigade of Sonia Gandhi, no wonder they want him out.

skher · Post by **skher** » 27 May 2012 03:08

At what time have Pakistani armies in Bakistan (West Pakistan) been smashed that you think we are in a position to dictate terms to Pakistan?

um, perhaps I'm mistaken .

Also, we've always been in a position to dictate terms.We choose not, as much as possible, to become what we hate,at least for ourselves - even though many sacrifices have been made.The most recent being 2008 Mumbai. Off-topic.Presently,Pakistan is unworthy of any attention.

These posts only serve a political purpose, no military one. In fact, this whole area, that has sucked up divisions worth of soldiers, is supported on tenuous links, with the enemy having better supply lines.
..
China's main demands are along Arunachal and Pakistans along the valley. The logic of occupy the passes, then the peaks that abut the passes, then the higher peaks and so on will eventually make you sit on all the mountain tops in the region.. This when no military objective can be achieved via the passes any way.

The Chinese PR machine only sees political effect.Causes, purposes,people and firearms are manufactured tools.
For example, Tianxia "All under heaven" is a political cause, which gives people with firearms a purpose to unite under One Rule.This cause has been realized economically by having Made in China goods visible all over the world.Firearms and people are tools to further suppress dissent or promote affinity. So,social insurance claims by PRC are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

The 1962 war had only political effect; no substantial military gain was achieved nor needed.The sucking up of divisions is merely a raw material.

The only place where both China and Pakistan meet for India is at Siachen.

The GoI. has always expressed far too much faith in security forces' capacity to recapture people and places.The rose garden is no monkey that can come back to us after it has been ceded.A consistent Israel like directive,though unlikely, is needed from the GoI to do so.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 May 2012 03:33

brihaspati wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Poster Manjgu has repeatedly crossed the line and gone personal. I have reported his post.

When someone goes personal like this, it hurts the poster the most as the value of his own message is devalued. Think about it. If you cannot cool yourself then do not post is a good rule.
Agreed! But did you also find tapeworm etc objectionable and report it? Even if you did you did not find it necessary to declare here that you did so? Is it possible that when we attack personal attacks, we do so selectively?

To which
ShauryaT answers:
As for selective responses, are we not humans and subject to our own biases.

Taking high pedestial and cursing people for using objectionable language, while not reporting/objecting to same language used by people supporting his view is human and he is entitled to have a bias.

Just because ShauryaT claims to be near the power or close to those near the power doesn't give him special right to "be human and have his own bias". Others are human too.

General V.K. Singh has made it clear that we would be fools to vacate Siachin, and no one else in the country is more qualified than him to make it clear.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2012 04:59

Manish_Sharma wrote: General V.K. Singh has made it clear that we would be fools to vacate Siachin, and no one else in the country is more qualified than him to make it clear.

Most of the IA is on record that any deal on Siachen is pre-conditioned on an AGPL. This is the position of the GoI too. The high trust deficit is no secret to anyone. Now, if GoI wants to override the IA to some degree and provide some flexibility during negotiations on this matter is for the GoI to decide in the larger interests, as they see it. We as citizens should certainly voice our opinion on the matter even vociferously. However, calling people "traitors" is CROSSING THE LINE. That is not what COAS V.K Singh did and NO ONE gave you or anyone else the right to call me the same. I have met the COAS once, and do not think he will call another Indian with a view on the matter contradicting his to be one of a traitor.

I watched the interview and the COAS is entitled to his views on the matter fully. The last time I checked, India was still under civilian rule. The civilians should listen to the advice of the military and take their concerns into account, however the final decision is in the hands of the executive and parliament on the matter. Also, please do not take the COAS's words out of context. He was reacting to the question about Kayani's recent utterances, which are really not the core issue at all. Kayani's comments are irrelevant and the main action is in the foreign secretary level discussions.

Let me be clear on my position, it almost mirrors retired Brig. Gurmeet Kanwal's and am happy to answer any questions on the matter. My only condition is, it be a civili discourse, without the use of epithets and innuendos.

If you find a post of mine violating forum rules or crossing a line, please report it.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 27 May 2012 05:37

ShauryaT wrote:Now, if GoI wants to override the IA to some degree and provide some flexibility during negotiations on this matter is for the GoI to decide in the larger interests, as they see it. We as citizens should certainly voice our opinion on the matter even vociferously. However, calling people "traitors" is CROSSING THE LINE.

Of course it isn't CROSSING THE LINE if it happens to be TRUE.

If they choose to take such a foolish and suicidal step, GoI better have a damn good explanation for why they choose to dilute India's long-held position on authenticating the AGPL.

India has no stomach for more lunatic diplomacy of the sharm-el-sheikh variety.

The onus for taking Confidence Building Measures rests squarely on the Pakistanis, not on India. India is the victim in this relationship, not the aggressor.

If the explanation offered by the Government does not make sense, then citizens are right to consider them and call them TRAITORS.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2012 05:44

I hope GoI learns from past mistakes. Once you lose control, you will never get it back. It happened in PoK, Aksai-chin and Tibet.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2012 05:44

eklavya wrote: If the explanation offered by the Government does not make sense, then citizens are right to consider them and call them TRAITORS.

I am learning some new definitions for the word traitor! Go on!!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 27 May 2012 05:49

Added and for the record. Our PM's call is for Siachen to be a "Mountain of Peace". Now, what will people call him,

I would get banned if posted my true feelings on this PM

but seriously this is the most discredited PM in the history of India - you really do not want to use him for as a cover for anything!!

Most of the IA is on record that any deal on Siachen is pre-conditioned on an AGPL.

not most but the ones who are in public eye and still in service and cannot be seen to cut the civilians so that people like you dleo not jump on them.

Those who are not in the limelight have the same view as Shukla

We are bleeding the pakis there and there are strategic advantages so no way to withdraw

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2012 05:56

RamaY wrote:I hope GoI learns from past mistakes. Once you lose control, you will never get it back. It happened in PoK, Aksai-chin and Tibet.

Yes, and largely due to OUR own follies and in many cases without even using all our capabilities at hand then. What we should not do is live under the ghosts of the past. Our enemies will be our enemies and shall take advantage of our weaknesses. We can only learn and correct them. However, we also should not assume the enemy has indefinite capabilities and live in a state of fear. An accurate assessment of their capabilities and intent needs to be done. In the case of TSP, their ultimate intent or desire is not something that is in our power to change in this generation. The whole islamist project, is something, that we are ill equipped to confront as of now. What is in our power is to deal and assess their capabilities and other desires and seek to exploit them for our national interest. In the process, if we have some win-win then I am not complaining.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 May 2012 06:04

Shauryaji, it is not OUR faults but one mans JLN.

It is interesting that when it comes to decision making you put the authority in the acting PM's hand (in the name of civilian rule, democracy and constitution) but when it came to blame/responsibility, you call it OUR problem

Surya ji

That is state of affairs. A PM of India calls Siachen mountain of peace and donate it to our nuclear enemy, where as another PM of India (IG) spent hundreds of Army lives to occupy that very mountain.

Who is the traitor?