Siachen News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 28 Jul 2012 22:25

The likes of mohandas pai may not be too happy

Don’t let Kargil memories fade


Deccan Chronicle



Rajeev Chandrasekhar

July 26, 2012

Every country has its historical moments, moments when it rises to demonstrate its true character and mettle. July 26, 1999, was one such day when, faced with a sudden and unprovoked attack against the backdrop of peace talks, Indians from all walks of life united in their support for the brave men and women of our armed forces as they fought to first beat off the intruders, and then to win a proud victory.

We had a collective lump in our throats as we heard and read reports of what Lt. Saurabh Kalia and five other soldiers on patrol had to endure in Pakistan’s captivity; our tears welled up when we heard stories of bravery and duty to the nation exemplified by men like Lt. Col. Vishwanathan, Capt. Vikram Batra, Lt. Vijayant Thapar, Lt. Hanifuddin, Major Sonam Wangchuk, Rifleman Yogendra Yadav, Lance Naik Ghulam Mohammed Khan, Lt. Neikezhakuo Kenguruse, Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja and so many others who represent the diversity of India and the grit and determination of India and its soldiers to defend India’s people and territory.

Thirteen years on memories have begun to fade, as they do for all historic events. But these men and their families gave up their tomorrows for our today, and that’s why it is important that we remember them and keep alive those memories of sacrifice and duty. In an atmosphere of corruption and malgovernance, when cynicism about the government is all around, today is a day to grab those memories and names from the hazy mist of the past and feel proud knowing that these tall men and women once stood amongst us, and died for us.

While there is much to remember and thank these brave men and women and their families for, as a nation we have much less to be proud of. Our commitment to the men and women of armed forces and their families is at best opportunistic. All these years later, as a citizenry, we are yet to build a National Military Memorial to honour their sacrifices even as we fritter away precious money on monuments to politicians and other symbols of excess and waste.

We still tolerate the sight of proud veterans of our armed forces returning their gallantry medals as a mark of a silent and dignified protest against the government’s apathy to their One Rank, One Pension demand. If not ungrateful, we have surely been delinquent in our duty towards them. And deliberately or through ignorance, we are diluting the sense of duty and service that personified the armed forces all these decades, and are, therefore, not attracting the next generation of heroes and defenders. I often quote to people in government and bureaucracy the famous line by Kautilya: “The day the soldier has to demand his dues will be a sad day for Magadha. For that day on, you will have lost all moral sanction to be King”.

The relationship between us, civilians, and the armed forces needs a relook. For too long our politicians and bureaucrats have held sway over this relationship. They are managing it callously at best. But as we will seek the next generation of young men and women to risk their life and limb again and again in the future, we need to establish a broader relationship that will encourage and rekindle a sense of loyalty and duty that makes men and women proud to serve in the armed forces.

The British Parliament passed an Armed Forces Covenant, which is a form of a contract between the people of UK and their armed forces whereby an assurance is given that the families and personnel of the armed forces will be cared for by the people of UK. I have introduced a similar bill in our Parliament and it is awaiting discussion. I hope that it is passed and that it promotes a new relationship between the people of India and its armed forces.

In the recent past, our heroes have tended to be cricketers, filmstars and, of course, political scions. Be that as it may, today is a good day for parents to take their children to a military memorial or even read out the story of the life of one of these brave sons of India. Let the children hear stories about Capt. Amol Kalia, Major Padmapani Acharya, Rifleman Satbir Singh, Lance Naik Satpal Singh, Havaldar Rajbir Singh and all the others from India’s small towns and villages who went to battle for us and left behind sorrowful families to cope on their own. Let these stories inspire a new generation of Indians as dedicated to this nation as the ones that we have lost.

And to the memories of these brave sons, let us bow our heads, say a prayer and salute them as a thank you.


The writer is a member of Parliament and vice-chairman, National Military Memorial Management Trust, Bengaluru

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 29 Jul 2012 01:14

Hndustan Times: Pakistan tunnels 300m into India

A tunnel that starts in Pakistan and can enable infiltrators to crawl 300 metres into Indian territory was detected on Saturday on the international border in Samba district, 70 km from Jammu.

SSP Samba Israr Khan said the BSF personnel guarding the BoP observed that fields has caved in about three-feet.
He said, on closed observation it was found that it had caved in a three different places in a straight line, leading to suspicion.

The police official said they also found a plastic pipe, which it is believed to be have been used or was to be used for oxygen supply to intruders.

He said on Saturday morning BSF personnel put in JCB machine to dug in the area and after digging in about 25- feet they found three feet-by-three feet tunnel.

Across the Chachwal BoPs is Lambrayl post in Shakargarh tehsil of Pakistan. BSF officials refused to talk on the matter and didn't allow the media to reach the site.

The tunnel was dug in beneath the border fence, which is about 300mt inside the Indian territory.

He said the BSF personnel are still trying to find out the opening of the tunnel.

SSP said it cannot be said with certainty if the tunnel has been used in past to infiltrate terrorists, till the opening is found.

According to police sources, a local working in the fields' found the caving in of the fields and a plastic pipe on Friday evening and reported the matter to BSF.

Meanwhile, security has been tightened in the area after the detection.


Let the bhaichara continue. :roll:

Of course, these must be non-state tunnels onlee, India must provide a dossier on the tunnel, and India must allow Pakistan to cross-examine the BSF.

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1872
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 29 Jul 2012 17:39

Cross-post from Army thread; very interesting interview with Northern Army Commander.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full- ... dtv-247974

NDTV: What is it that Indian Army is concerned about with respect to Siachen?

Lt General KT Parnaik: You see, to understand Siachen, I think one needs to be geographically oriented to the region. And let me simply put it, because I'm telling you without a map, but the Siachen Glacier is bounded by the west by the Saltoro Range, which is a very high range and to the east by the Karakoram Range and the Nubra River. So, per se Siachen Glacier is a sort of iced river, which flows in between them. The Saltoro Range actually provides domination of the entire area. If we do not stay on the Saltoro, I won't go into the history of the demarcation of this thing, and how the area north of 9847 was left to the imagination, when they said that the LCA runs northward thence. Now northwards, if you literally and practically take northwards, it is along the Saltoro Range. The Pakistan's contention is that actually northwards means that it runs through the Karakoram Pass. Karakoram Pass is almost, I would say, 45 degrees from 9847. But the issue was that in '80s and '70s and late '70s and '80s, when we realized that a large number of expeditions were being conducted by Pakistan, we did perceive that, if in the excuse of expeditions they come and occupy that area, it would cause a lot of threat to us. So we occupied it in '84. There is a strategic implication of the Saltoro Range and the implication is you have the Pakistanis sitting in the northern areas, which we keep saying is an illegally occupied, it's a Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Now out of the other areas that they have occupied, they have illegally seeded the Aksai Chin and the Shaksgam Valley, Shaksgam Valley lies to the north of the glacier. And if Saltoro Range was held by them, it practically enables them to bridge this Aksai Chin and northern areas gap, which is with China, and also exercise complete control over the Karakoram Pass. Therefore, strategically, it is an important area. And we feel, by holding these areas, would effectively deny approaches to Kargil and Leh. Now, in security parlance, for the country it is of strategic importance, that is one reason. Second reason is that we have had a number of rounds of talks on this. A large number of solutions have been offered. One of the biggest issues that has not been resolved yet is that we insist that for anything to happen in Siachen, the Pakistanis must first accept the actual line of ground position and delineate the line along the positions that are being held by the troops today, both theirs and ours, as is, where is. They do not seem to be amenable to this sort of a thing. They continue to say that we should go back to '71 and '53, when this whole area was not demarcated, so you should vacate it. Don't forget, Kargil happened because of Siachen and why they did Kargil. If you peruse their own records, which are now public, the Kargil War in Pakistan is now in a public domain. And one of the major objectives of what they did in Kargil was to force us to vacate the Siachen Glacier. Now if that is their intent and that is their credibility, it is up to you to judge whether we should be really vacating the Glacier or not.

NDTV: Does the Government understand these strategic implications?

Lt General KT Parnaik: The government fully understands the strategic implications and they are absolutely with us. And all through these talks, they have always projected this issue in the manner that I've told you.

NDTV: And the offer made by Pakistan on Siachen talks?

Lt General KT Parnaik: See, the offer that was made by the Pakistan Army Chief, probably in wake of the tragedy that took place in Gayari, if they find it difficult they are most welcome to withdraw to safe places. And let me assure you Indian Army has no evil designs to set across for those areas and capture those territories. And this aspect is also well known to our leaders. So that is where it rests.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 30 Jul 2012 09:43

x posting from kargil thread. There are plenty of lessons and reasons here why we should not vacate siachen.
Hiten wrote:Lt. Gen Chandrashekhar, who then was the VCOAS, gives his account of the Kargil War

Kargil Overview



SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24173
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 14 Aug 2012 06:29

Siachen, an integral part of India: Def Min Antony
Emphasising that the Siachen Glacier is an integral part of India, Defence Minister A.K. Antony on Monday said the issue that remained to be resolved in Jammu and Kashmir was Pakistan vacating the area under its illegal occupation.

Mr. Antony reiterated in the Lok Sabha India’s commitment to resolve all outstanding issues bilaterally and peacefully in accordance with the Shimla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration.

In a written reply to a question by Manish Tewari (Congress) on demilitarisation of the Siachen Glacier, Mr. Antony said the government’s principled and consistent position was that the entire J&K was an integral part of the Indian Union.

“A part of the territory of the State is under the illegal and forcible occupation of Pakistan. The issue that remains to be resolved in Jammu and Kashmir is vacation by Pakistan of that area.”

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12405
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Aug 2012 11:25

During the Height of the give Siachen to Pakis discussion a few months back, many in the media kept sayign Indian soldiers dead at Siachen was 4000 includign NDTV and CNN-IBN which was paki estimate based on its own death toll of 2500 soldiers dead. Now that the truth is 846, will they channels and other media accept that it lied and unessecary took the Pakistani Army position.

846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 20 Sep 2012 06:15

For the record:
Economic Times: 19 SEP, 2012 - India must continue to hold on to Siachen: Bikram Singh, Army Chief General

"It is very important and we must continue to hold that area and we have held that view always.... We have lost our lives and lot of blood has been shed to get into these areas and occupy the heights and positions.

"These positions are of strategic importance and we have given our concerns to the Government and now it is for the Government to decide," Gen Singh said in a media interaction.


Times of India: 20 SEP, 2012 - Army fully geared to tackle all threats: General Bikram Singh

The Army chief, however, was clear about the "strategic importance" of Siachen-Saltoro Ridge, where 850 Indian soldiers have laid down their lives since 1984. "There is no change in our view at all. We must continue to hold that area...We have lost lot of lives and shed a lot of blood there," he said.


The Chief has changed. The message is still the same.

All take note, Rakshaks, lecturers, peace chattering class and WKKs alike.

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby merlin » 20 Sep 2012 10:04

Now that is a good message for the chief to put out, lays at rest misgivings about the current GoI seeking to pressurize the IA into giving up Siachen.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24173
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 20 Sep 2012 10:14

In view of the one-on-one meeting that is likely to take place in Islamabad in November, the IA Chief's message is very timely and necessary as well.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8307
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Sep 2012 10:23

The chai biskut can continue all eternity. As long as the message remains constant we need not worry about any thing that is said by the chattering classes.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2012 12:21

SSridhar wrote:Siachen, an integral part of India: Def Min Antony
Emphasising that the Siachen Glacier is an integral part of India, Defence Minister A.K. Antony on Monday said the issue that remained to be resolved in Jammu and Kashmir was Pakistan vacating the area under its illegal occupation.

Mr. Antony reiterated in the Lok Sabha India’s commitment to resolve all outstanding issues bilaterally and peacefully in accordance with the Shimla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration.

In a written reply to a question by Manish Tewari (Congress) on demilitarisation of the Siachen Glacier, Mr. Antony said the government’s principled and consistent position was that the entire J&K was an integral part of the Indian Union.

“A part of the territory of the State is under the illegal and forcible occupation of Pakistan. The issue that remains to be resolved in Jammu and Kashmir is vacation by Pakistan of that area.”


SSridhar Ji,

Did you by any chance catch the retired and staunchly patriotic Maj Gen Ashok Mehta, (the brother of the Vinod Metha, journalist par excellence :wink: ), discussing on DD news friday 14 Sept, siachin with a decidedly paki friendly and kiyani boot licking slant??

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12405
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Sep 2012 12:23

Wow; Never knew Ashok Mehta and Vinod Mehta were related.

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6897
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 20 Sep 2012 12:30

I wonder if those individuals who questioned the IA chiefs character and integrity will apologise?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2012 12:35

shyamd wrote:I wonder if those individuals who questioned the IA chiefs character and integrity will apologise?


They were all "encouraged" to do so. Immoral, irrelevant and dhimmi boot lickers, every last one of them with many on the fai circuit and junket dole groupies.

Many like Ashok Metha constantly and publicly drop "track two" references in a pathetic attempt to stay relevant whereas the railway tracks would be a good destination for them.

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5246
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 20 Sep 2012 21:11

Move forward on Siachen: A multi-pronged approach is needed to resolve the long-standing bilateral conflict
Even so, moving ahead on a step-by-step solution to the Siachen dispute is possible. As a first step, a disengagement plan should include, inter alia, agreement on ground positions to which troops should withdraw and a joint surveillance and monitoring mechanism to ensure that the agreement is not breached. The onus of removing PLA troops from the Northern Areas is, however, squarely on Pakistan, if only to demonstrate its earnestness to resolve the Siachen problem.

There is another compelling argument for early demilitarisation of the Siachen region. The human and economic cost of the conflict is undisputedly high; in terms of nearly irreversible ecological degradation it is probably even higher. Human presence and activities are causing the glaciers to recede rapidly. Higher precipitation has increased the rate of movement of the glaciers resulting in higher levels of melting. Physical claims to the territories notwithstanding, one has to agree that it is a shared heritage in terms of ecology.

In order to reduce the overall trust deficit between our two countries, we should simultaneously move forward in fields like trade, education and the media. There is immense scope to increase direct trade between our two countries (instead of doing so via Dubai!). Experts in both countries have made many eminently workable suggestions to take our bilateral trade several notches higher than where it is at present. A comprehensive student exchange programme between our universities could actually lead to better understanding among the youth who could help to shape a bright future for the subcontinent. Lifting bans on each other's visual media is relatively easy to implement and would also open up new vistas of understanding. A sagacious and constructive approach based on pragmatism tempered with caution is the need of the hour.

The writer is a retired Lt general of the Indian army. He has been part of Track II dialogue with Pakistan.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8090
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 20 Sep 2012 22:55

^^From the above article
...Sensing a growing groundswell of public opinion for ushering peace in the subcontinent, both governments have been keen to improve ties; taking care not to seem too eager or in undue haste...

The "growing groundswell" seems to be quite one sided. Otherwise how does the Lt. General explain Hafiz Saeed still campaigning around Pakistan calling for Jihad against India in front of sold out crowds?

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2393
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 21 Sep 2012 04:19

Indian army chief opposes moving out of Siachen; says Chinese army used to carry out attacks in Arunachal Paradesh
NEW DELHI, (SANA): Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh said the Indian military would not like to move out of the strategically important” icy heights for which a “lot of blood has been shed”.
He made the statement at a time when Pakistan is pushing for demilitarisation of Siachen.

Talking to media persons, Gen Singh stated that the Army has conveyed its views to the government which has to take a final decision in this regard. “It is very important and we must continue to hold that area and we have held that view always…. We have lost our lives and lot of blood has been shed to get into these areas and occupy the heights and positions,” he said.

“These positions are of strategic importance and we have given our concerns to the Government and now it is for the Government to decide,” Gen Singh said.

Pakistan has been pushing for demilitarisation of Siachen but India has maintained that this cannot take place without proper authentication by both sides of the present troop positions on the glacier.

Asked if the Army believed that the glacier has to be held under control then why the talks were being held, he said, “The negotiations are at government level and at the national level. Let us see, how these negotiations progress but we have given our point of view.”
Gen Singh said the Army has not changed its views on the importance of the strategic heights which have been under Indian physical control since 1984 after the Army launched to Operation Meghdoot to occupy them.

Asked how much flexible India was willing to be on the issue, he said it was discussed during the 13th round of Defence Secretary-level talks held in Islamabad. “This is one of the issues supposed to have been discussed and it was not concluded at that point of time and I think it will carry forward. I think modalities have to be worked out during the dialogue to be held next year.”

Army chief alleged that Chinese soldiers are present in Pakistan Administered Kashmir (PAK) to provide security to its ongoing railways and road projects there.
:
:
:

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8090
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 21 Sep 2012 04:25

The former Army Chief was heavily criticized by certain members here for speaking about the Army's position on Siachen and other disputes to the media. They claimed he should have only spoken to the government and then kept his mouth shut. The new Chief seems to have done exactly the same thing. Will he be criticized as well or will these posters finally accept that there is nothing wrong in the Army Chief making the Army's position on an important dispute known to the people they protect?

ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5246
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 21 Sep 2012 05:23

nachiket wrote:The former Army Chief was heavily criticized by certain members here for speaking about the Army's position on Siachen and other disputes to the media. They claimed he should have only spoken to the government and then kept his mouth shut. The new Chief seems to have done exactly the same thing. Will he be criticized as well or will these posters finally accept that there is nothing wrong in the Army Chief making the Army's position on an important dispute known to the people they protect?
My position is the same. The Chiefs advice on matter of policy is their prerogative to give to the government and not in public - before a policy is finalized. Please do a compare and contrast with other countries with democratic setups and please see what happens on matters of policy between the service chiefs and the government.

anjan
BRFite
Posts: 448
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby anjan » 21 Sep 2012 05:51

ShauryaT wrote:
nachiket wrote:The former Army Chief was heavily criticized by certain members here for speaking about the Army's position on Siachen and other disputes to the media. They claimed he should have only spoken to the government and then kept his mouth shut. The new Chief seems to have done exactly the same thing. Will he be criticized as well or will these posters finally accept that there is nothing wrong in the Army Chief making the Army's position on an important dispute known to the people they protect?
My position is the same. The Chiefs advice on matter of policy is their prerogative to give to the government and not in public - before a policy is finalized. Please do a compare and contrast with other countries with democratic setups and please see what happens on matters of policy between the service chiefs and the government.

Lacking an effective 3rd party oversight mechanism like the US legislative sub-committees(our Parliamentary committees make good reports but are toothless) there is no alternative but to put critical information out in the public domain. Effective oversight too is an essential mechanism in a democracy. The Armed Forces in India operate in very odd structure compared to any other government, democratic or otherwise, with very little input on policy. The Chief's speaking out is the ONLY alternative given the system. The other choice is that the government takes expert advice and then does whatever it likes and no one even knows about it or the alternatives explored. What kind of democratic governance model is that?

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 21 Sep 2012 07:40

ShauryaT wrote:
nachiket wrote:The former Army Chief was heavily criticized by certain members here for speaking about the Army's position on Siachen and other disputes to the media. They claimed he should have only spoken to the government and then kept his mouth shut. The new Chief seems to have done exactly the same thing. Will he be criticized as well or will these posters finally accept that there is nothing wrong in the Army Chief making the Army's position on an important dispute known to the people they protect?
My position is the same. The Chiefs advice on matter of policy is their prerogative to give to the government and not in public - before a policy is finalized. Please do a compare and contrast with other countries with democratic setups and please see what happens on matters of policy between the service chiefs and the government.


Make no mistake, the Chief is very right by speaking out in public. MMS and his ilk are hell bent on the nobel chase, consequences be damned.

If the Chief were only seen and not heard, the advice he gave or his factual position would simply be overlooked or willfully misrepresented by boot licking babus on the fai circuit, ever eager to curry favor and secure a post retirement cosy sinecure.

The fai circuit exists at various levels and all are sponsored and/or controlled by the pakis or paki lovers which also includes dubious US "think tanks". If the IA does not sometimes speak publicly and make known it's position then some moron babu will falsely speak for it. Over the years and by bitter experience, the IA has learned it's lessons well.

The recent supreme court judgement over the pay commission injustice done to the Armed Forces is just one case in point. For years, the babus willfully misrepresented the IA's case and went against it by openly lying to the courts despite the IA objecting through official channels. For many years the IA did not voice it's position publicly thus giving the evil babus a free run.

Just recall the recent shenanigans of the babudom against VK Singh.

Sometimes, dirty linen is best washed publicly.

Why do you think that the pakis are increasingly voicing their concerns and frustrations about the IA "getting involved" in the "political process"??

In addition to the babus, the pakis want to suppress facts and hope that aman ki asha will mask all the evil that has been done to us in the past. Even the empty headed, channel attired paki "foreign minister" is pushing the same line and our geriatric leadership is entranced by the view she provides. The paki position of implacable hatred and mindless jealousy so deeply and genetically ingrained will never change and a pig can take only so much lipstick.

Can there ever be a more contrarian position specially when the entire paki process is paki army driven???

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24173
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 21 Sep 2012 15:44

It has also been my position that the service chiefs must not speak about their advice to the government on military matters in public. But, I am unable to find fault with either the current Army Chief or his predecessor in the case of Siachen. It is well borne out by facts that the incumbent ruling dispensation is willing to make extraordinary concessions to Pakistan even with no reciprocity at all from Pakistan on the most important issue plaguing us, terror. The incumbent PM went to the extent of implicating India in the Balochistan issue and all the Chanakian analyses that was made supporting his enormous faux pas have come to a nought. There is a considerable risk of this PM repeating this folly, this time over the Siachen issue, and it needs to be stopped in its tracks. I am sure that the Army Chief had some information on what was being proposed in the one-on-one meeting at Islamabad with a lame-duck PPP government in November and that disturbed him. There is enormous pressure on India from the US in taking far-reaching measures to earn the trust of Pakistan and this ruling alliance seems to find merit in that approach. There can be no better person than the Army Chief to bring some sanity in matters pertaining to the military at least.

Though it troubles me too that the situation has come to this pass when a service chief has to openly say things that he is only expected to discuss in private with the RM and the PM, I put the blame entirely on the Prime Minister Dr Man Mohan Singh for this unfortunate situation.

nakul
BRFite
Posts: 1251
Joined: 31 Aug 2011 10:39

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nakul » 21 Sep 2012 15:49

^^^

There is no point in having an IA chief who can't look for the country's interests but is willing to follow the polticians. Gen Sundarji is said to have defied direct orders to remove his troops from the chinese border which prevented China from enroaching. When it comes to national interest, breaking rules is fine. We saw what happened in Kashmir when J Nehru stuck to the rules laid out for him. We are still ruing the day it happened. At the end of the day, service to the nation should take priority over rules and conduct.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2012 16:54

^^^Even then a COAS defied orders from Nehru to undertake only defensive operations and put his job/name/reputation on line by giving go ahead for operation to take Zoji la pass. It was this operation which ensured that Indian retains whatever areas it today has in Ladakh.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 21 Sep 2012 22:37

ToIlet is running ridiculous headline "Army chief opposes PM's trip to Pak"! It has no relation with the actual news where the chief is only opposing giving up Siachen advantage.

What a rot this DDM is!

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Sep 2012 22:39

DDM are sold on eyeball grabbing headlines for drama effect - its how they make money
you have to filter it all out

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 22 Sep 2012 04:49

Kargil war secret: IAF used 'jugaad'

The Indian Air Force's best kept secret is out: Its stellar role in the Kargil victory 13 years ago had as much to do with its pilots and planes as that great Indian trick, jugaad.

Pilots flew real-time missions with hand-held GPS sets to home in on high-altitude targets, usually tiny contingents of Pakistanis occupying Indian positions. And its aces used hand-held video cameras to record bombing runs for post-op analysis back at the base.

The IAF's "innovative use of airpower (was) one of the excellent features of the Kargil operations", says a new study of the war by Benjamin Lambeth, an airpower historian, released on Thursday.

"A senior officer told me there was a word for these innovations - jugaad," said Lambeth.

The challenge for the IAF in Kargil was unprecedented. No air force had ever been tasked to bomb targets at elevations of 14,000 to 18,000 ft, against a backdrop that made spotting impossible. To top it, there were instructions to not cross the LoC.

A serving IAF pilot, who did not want to be identified, said, "We did use hand-held commercial GPS units, except they were not really hand-held…They were fixed in front, in a bracket."

So, what other jugaad did the IAF do?

Shooting up an avalanche, says Lambeth.

Pilots knew if you couldn't bomb dispersed enemy soldiers, you could hit them with something they least expected: shooting on a mountain side triggered an avalanche. Snow came tumbling down, in a rushing sweep.

There is more. Kargil was just the start. Or was it?
Last edited by Vipul on 22 Sep 2012 21:35, edited 2 times in total.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2648
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Sep 2012 06:34

abhijitm wrote:ToIlet is running ridiculous headline "Army chief opposes PM's trip to Pak"! It has no relation with the actual news where the chief is only opposing giving up Siachen advantage.

What a rot this DDM is!


This could also be a calculated PR drive to show Bikram Singh as a non-compromising General, when it comes to Pakistan. Since there were clouds over him on this topic. But kudos to the honest people in the media and the aam-aadmi in the social media, if it forces the GOI to not be seen as selling out to Pakistan

Added later: am not hinting that Bikram Singh is any less uncompromising than VKS was. Time will tell. Good start though, at least on the Siachen front
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 22 Sep 2012 07:23, edited 1 time in total.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2648
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Sep 2012 06:39

SSridhar wrote:If this might help . . .

Kanti Prasad Bajpai comes from an eminent family of Indian diplomats: his father, Uma Shankar Bajpai was a former Indian High Commissioner to Canada; an uncle, K.S. Bajpai was a former Ambassador to the United States; and his grandfather, the late civil servant Sir Girija Shankar Bajpai, was Agent-General for India in the United States prior to India gaining independence. Bajpai, his father, his son, and his uncle were all educated at The Doon School.


Conclusion: the clown is educated but not cultured.

Seems to come from a long line savvy survivor type of civil servants.


Doon school - of the Karan Thapar and Arun Poorie fame. Festering ground for rich brat-kids, with no understanding of Indian culture; English educated, elitist and with a DIE mentality

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 22 Sep 2012 12:47

Vipul wrote:Pilots knew if you couldn't bomb dispersed enemy soldiers, you could hit them with something they least expected: shooting on a mountain side triggered an avalanche. Snow came tumbling down, in a rushing sweep.

There is more. Kargil was just the start. Or was it?

Hmmmm that's why KiaNahi was much worried after Ghyari

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23554
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 22 Sep 2012 13:06

Vipul wrote:Pilots flew real-time missions with hand-held GPS sets to home in on high-altitude targets, usually tiny contingents of Pakistanis occupying Indian positions. And its aces used hand-held video cameras to record bombing runs for post-op analysis back at the base.



Hand-held??

a video camera floating about the cockpit during ejection is likely to take out a major limb or if unlucky, even little tommy himself. :)

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 23 Sep 2012 12:14

Lot of kolavari by the TSPA mouthpiece on General Singh's comment on Siachen. It proves that pakis were almost certain MMS will concede. Why MMS is so attracted to these abusive rabid pakis only he and the God knows.
Indian COAS interferes
the peace process with Pakistan is held hostage by the Indian Army. Indirectly, General Singh’s veto adds to the pile of evidence that the Indian Army is in cahoots with the Sangh Parivar and its political arm, the BJP. :lol:
Pakistan should make it clear to the US, which is behind these talks, that Indian Army permission is needed for any agreement
Indian military is sabotaging the dialogue to resolve long-standing issues with Pakistan, without which, lasting peace between the two nuclear-armed neighbours is impossible

The highlighted part is very important. GoI must have bent over backwards on Siachen and that proves why the General had to go out his way and comment in public.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 23 Sep 2012 15:20

abhijitm wrote:ToIlet is running ridiculous headline "Army chief opposes PM's trip to Pak"! It has no relation with the actual news where the chief is only opposing giving up Siachen advantage.

What a rot this DDM is!

Can't armed forces drag TOIlet into court for nonsense in others' name, this time even the chief.

Last time a journalist published a picture of a high court judge by mistake and apologized later, the media house was sent notice of defamation suit and 100 cr. damages.

Such nonsense should not get unpunished, unless the media thinks that any hindrance to spread nonsense is against freedom of speech.

Perhaps anyone can sue shit spreaders of TOIlet, not just the chief, for not upholding correctness in discourse.

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 23 Sep 2012 16:50

Why are we even quoting and then discussing garbage from a Paki publication. Do we really think there is going to be objectivity and truth when it comes to reporting about India, over there?

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 23 Sep 2012 17:00

^^ The Nation, as garbage it is, is a mouthpiece of TSPA and speaks volume of pakistani nature. It is more important to keep watch on what it says between the lines rather than reading minority Yawn or Dailytimes who neither represent paki army nor masses. The Nation offers an important window for us to peek into the paki army mindset.

Here they are openly admitting US is behind Indo-pak siachen talks. Not that we don't know already but an open confession by TSPA is important.

ankitash
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 63
Joined: 15 Jan 2011 03:12

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ankitash » 25 Sep 2012 07:10

Siachen Glacier is critical to India’s sovereignty
The author is a retired Infantry officer of the Indian Army.


There is a concerted effort on the part of many interested parties to demilitarise the Siachen Glacier. However, the realities of the situation is not explained why Siachen Glacier is critical to India’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.



Strategic Importance of Siachen

It is amusing to read headlines as ‘Army chief opposes PM’s trip to Pak’. This is India and not Pakistan where the Chief can oppose the Government. What the Chief, as any Chief would do, was to inform the Prime Minister of the dangers fraught by winning political brownies over the real dangers overpowering such boneheaded pipedreams.

The issue is simple if India had not occupied Siachen, then Pakistan from the West and China from the East would have a stranglehold over the Karakorum Pass.

What is missed out is that the Chinese have military advantage in the Daulat Beg Oldi area, which can cause a strategically and tactical imbalance and if India withdraws from Siachen and Pakistan, in collusion does a ‘Kargi’, the area will be lost forever and the continuity of China’s domination of illegally occupied territories from Aksai Chin to Shaksgam Valley will be complete.

Little to people realise that in high altitude, without acclimatisation, the troops are as good not being there.

The medical problems on the glacier include high altitude pulmonary oedema, acute mountain sickness, frost bite chilblains, hypothermia, snow blindness.

To obviate that there is a three week acclimatisation that is necessary at various heights.

The question arise is that after the Indian Army quits the Siachen and Pakistan and China does a Kargil, would it be possible to put ‘acclimatised and fit’ troops to ‘throw the intruders out’ to quote Nehru’s famous last words? Yes, it can still be done. But at what costs in wasted lives? Is our memories that short that we have forgotten how Pakistan’s crown in Siachen, the Quaid post, was won and at what costs and be renamed Bana Post?

Are soldiers dispensable commodities for political follies attempting thereafter to achieve ‘instant stardom’ and prove great patriots?



Siachen Glacier is critical to India’s sovereignty

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 26 Sep 2012 05:31

We are being suckered by a Good Cop/Bad Cop routine by Mickey Mouse Singh and Gen Bikram Singh. The Cong-I goons had a definite plan in targeting ex army chief V K Singh to bring in a pliant Bikram Singh for ensuring a smooth journey to Oslo for Mickey Mouse Singh on board Air India 1.
Its a perfect opportunity for the the JNU/Pappi Jappi/Maino gang.In the next 18-24 months the later will go all out in looting/bankrupting the country and the former will be only too happy to lend its support to hurt India's strategic interests.


Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3626
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 14 Oct 2012 05:58

1987 Siachen hero passes away

NEW DELHI: The Indian military on Saturday bade farewell to the man who led one of its most daunting operations in recent memory, at a snow peak over 21,000 feet high and across frozen bodies of his fallen comrades, to evict enemy soldiers occupying a post named after the founder of their nation.

Brigadier Varinder Singh, then a young Major, led the small assault team of 8 Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry that captured the Quaid Post in Siachen glacier on June 26, 1987, after weeks of laborious, logistically challenging operation and several casualties.

Singh (57) collapsed on Friday while playing basketball, and passed away a few hours later. He is survived by his wife Anita, a daughter and a son.

Once Singh's team captured it, Quaid Post was renamed Bana Top, after Subedar Bana Singh, a member of Singh's assault team, who was awarded Param Vir Chakra, the highest gallantry award for the operation. Maj Singh, who was wounded in the operation, was awarded Vir Chakra.

"We had no strength to celebrate. At 21,000 feet, nobody does the bhangra, yells war cries, or hoists the Tri-colour. Ultimately, sheer doggedness wins. If we had once hesitated, Quaid would still be with Pakistan," Singh recently told Broadsword, a defence blog run by defence analyst Ajai Shukla.

The 1987 operation, many would argue, was the peak of Indo-Pak hostilities in some sense, stretching their hatred into the highest peak in a forlorn glacier that was beyond the gaze of all invading armies and expanding empires through centuries.

Seen today, when India is reassessing its military strategies and China rises across the disputed border like a behemoth, Bana Top is a reminder of the unforeseen challenges the Indian military faces as well as a glorious statement of its professional capabilities.

The efforts to capture Quaid Post started in secrecy in May, 1987, when Second Lieutenant Rajiv Pande led a small group to fix ropes for a subsequent assault party to climb up the post occupied by 17 Pakistani soldiers, mostly commandos from the Special Services Group. Nine of these 13 Indian Army men, including Pande, were killed by Pakistani soldiers and their bodies would be retrieved only several weeks later.

The post was vital because of its dominance of the area. It could give a sweeping glance of up to 100 km, and was effectively used by Pakistani Army to disrupt Indian efforts to maintain its posts in the glacier.

It took almost a month after Pande's team fell to Pakistani bullets, to assemble the assault team of 64 soldiers under Major Singh. When the first group climbed up the ropes, bodies of the nine comrades were deep frozen along the way. With a few sips of tea, some chocolate bar and their indomitable courage, the group stayed the course and carried out the final assault.

The group was exhausted "but Pande had to be avenged, and the relentless firing from Quaid reminded us of what we had to do," Singh told Broadsword.


RIP to a brave son of India.

krisna
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5829
Joined: 22 Dec 2008 06:36

Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby krisna » 14 Oct 2012 08:19

^^^^
RIP to the brave brigadier Varinder Singh .


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aldonkar, anupamd, darshand, Majestic-12 [Bot], Merril, ParGha, Rakesh, VickyAvinash and 58 guests