Siachen News & Discussion

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 14 Oct 2012 09:20

RIP Brigadier. India owes a lot to you.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 14 Oct 2012 09:38

RIP Brigadier. India will remember you.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_23858 » 14 Oct 2012 09:48

"We had no strength to celebrate. At 21,000 feet, nobody does the bhangra, yells war cries, or hoists the Tri-colour. Ultimately, sheer doggedness wins. If we had once hesitated, Quaid would still be with Pakistan,"

Sir You were absolutely right...but your actions at 21,000 feet gave us Indians the opportunity to do the same at sea level...
RIP Sir...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 14 Oct 2012 10:04

It is sacrifices such as these that should serve as a reminder and the reasons why Siachen must never be unilaterally demilitarised.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 14 Oct 2012 19:18

martinbaker wrote:"We had no strength to celebrate. At 21,000 feet, nobody does the bhangra, yells war cries, or hoists the Tri-colour. Ultimately, sheer doggedness wins. If we had once hesitated, Quaid would still be with Pakistan,".

we will celebrate this for you and not allow Mikey Mouses of this world to barter away your sacrifice...

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby aniket » 14 Oct 2012 19:57

RIP Brigadier
Question to gurus- why are Cheetals being procured,when Dhruv can do the same job ?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Oct 2012 03:03

aniket wrote:Question to gurus- why are Cheetals being procured,when Dhruv can do the same job ?
I too was puzzled with the same question, but a birdie tells me... the Druv line is going in full throttle and is booked solid for couple of years but the Cheetah/Chetak/Cheetal line has spare capacity which is being utilized. I enquired why even a CheetXXX line is even there in HAL Helo div... maybe some insiders / people whose paanwal supplies Paan to HAL can help with more info.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sandipan » 15 Oct 2012 06:42

Another reason for still producing Cheetah because having single engine, it is cheaper to fly

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 15 Oct 2012 08:06

Sandipan wrote:Another reason for still producing Cheetah because having single engine, it is cheaper to fly

I think Cheetal is a newer variant produced by HAL using the basic Cheetak/SA3 with SDRE enhancements from the ALH program. This gives it higher ceiling and longer endurance.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 15 Oct 2012 18:55

aniket wrote:<SNIP>Question to gurus- why are Cheetals being procured,when Dhruv can do the same job ?


The above question is based on the assumption that Dhruv is capable of replacing other choppers for all the jobs to be done in Siachen and adjoining areas in a ECONOMICAL manner...which I don't think is the case. In case you read that article carefully, you'd realize that Cheetals are being procured for delays in acquisition of LUH and not production of Dhruv...it is a case of horses for courses.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 15 Oct 2012 21:38

Shrinivasan wrote:
aniket wrote:Question to gurus- why are Cheetals being procured,when Dhruv can do the same job ?
I too was puzzled with the same question, but a birdie tells me... the Druv line is going in full throttle and is booked solid for couple of years but the Cheetah/Chetak/Cheetal line has spare capacity which is being utilized. I enquired why even a CheetXXX line is even there in HAL Helo div... maybe some insiders / people whose paanwal supplies Paan to HAL can help with more info.



Hearing that they are re-engining suitable and carefully chosen low lifed airframes.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Oct 2012 21:52

chetak wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:{quote="aniket"}Question to gurus- why are Cheetals being procured,when Dhruv can do the same job ?{/quote]} I too was puzzled with the same question, but a birdie tells me... the Druv line is going in full throttle and is booked solid for couple of years but the Cheetah/Chetak/Cheetal line has spare capacity which is being utilized. I enquired why even a CheetXXX line is even there in HAL Helo div... maybe some insiders / people whose paanwal supplies Paan to HAL can help with more info.



Hearing that they are re-engining suitable and carefully chosen low lifed airframes.[/quote]


Sorry for the wrong input above.

The airframes are brand new from the reactivated Chetak line.

All new orders going forward will have new airframes onlee. :)

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby RamaY » 16 Oct 2012 23:32

RIP brigadier Varinder Singh!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Oct 2012 07:26

Three steps to Siachen

India and Pakistan have been engaged in military-level Track 2 talks for the past 12 months, with the delegates of the two sides meeting in Dubai, Bangkok and finally in Lahore in September this year. Smaller “sub-group” meetings in Chiang Mai (Thailand) and Palo Alto (California) have also featured in the Track 2 process. A number of issues — among them Siachen, Sir Creek, confidence-building measures — were discussed at the meetings, where my participation as part of the Indian delegation brings me to share my take on the issue of demilitarisation of Siachen.

There are three aspects to the Siachen issue. The first, in my opinion, needs transparent action at the government level. The first aspect is why should India, in the first place, agree to any demilitarisation of Siachen when it holds the dominating high ground on Saltoro Ridge and can command the strategic region, thus preventing a China-Pakistan link up in the region? Why should India vacate Siachen when Indian Parliament has passed a resolution that the entire Jammu & Kashmir (including Pakistan-occupied Kashmir) is Indian territory?

Why should India repeat the case of returning Haji Pir Pass when there is a strong possibility that the Pakistan Army will reoccupy the Saltoro Ridge and we will never be able to take it back again? India has lost a total of 814 soldiers in Siachen since 1984, but now due to superior facilities and a better economy, we can remain there indefinitely. So why should the sacrifices of our soldiers be forgotten, and why should we vacate Saltoro Ridge when we hold all the cards? Why should India not link Siachen to other issues like Pakistan-sponsored terrorism? Given its sensitive and emotive nature, I feel that the Indian government would need to answer the question why.

The second aspect is when should India agree to demilitarisation of Siachen? Here also the Track 2 discussed the political instability and the possibility of early elections looming in India and Pakistan. This question of when can only be dealt with by the next government at the Centre.

The third aspect, which Track 2 discussed and finally agreed to a proposal, is how to demilitarise Siachen?

The official Indian stand on delineation and authentication is well known, and the Track 2 proposal has covered these aspects. The Pakistani team were worried that if they agreed to authentication of the AGPL (Actual Ground Position Line), India may stop further discussions on Siachen, once the authentication had been carried out. Hence, an “integrated” approach was agreed to.

The Track 2 proposals for “how to demilitarise Siachen” are “part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments”. The Track 2, Lahore “Siachen Proposal” of September 25, 2012, says “the following clear package of integrated and interlinked stipulations were laid down for the demilitarisation of the area and delineation of the line”:

* Setting up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, consistent with existing arrangements
* The present ground positions would be jointly recorded and the records exchanged
* The determination of the places to which redeployment would be affected would be jointly agreed
* Disengagement and demilitarisation would occur in accordance with a mutually acceptable timeframe. (Esta-blishment of a joint working group has been proposed, in a separate annexure.)
* Prior to withdrawal, each side will undertake to remove munitions and other military equipment and waste from its area of control
* Ongoing cooperative monitoring of these activities and the resulting demilitarised zone would be agreed to for ensuring transparency.

The concluding paragraph of the Track 2 proposal reads: “In keeping with the Simla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration, both sides should undertake that resolution of this issue is a bilateral matter and that there will be no change in the status of the area, and also that no personnel of any third country will be permitted within it, unless cleared by the two countries jointly.”

I have written earlier that Track 2 is not a magic wand, which can solve complicated problems between India and Pakistan. It can only provide some possible solutions for the consideration of Track 1 discussions. The proposals on how to demilitarise Siachen are doable, provided the Indian government answers the questions of why and when.

The Track 2 teams of both countries have done their job, and now it is up to the two governments to make the next move.


The writer, a former vice-admiral, retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam


I feel another question needs to be answered by GoI of What if it does not work? IOW: Failure of agreement scenarios have to be envisioned and planned for along with assumptions of success and hope.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Oct 2012 07:42

The following paper, seems to address my concern better.

India-Pakistan CBMs Project: Siachen Proposal

Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments.


India-Pakistan Experts Agree on Confidence-building Measures at Lahore Meeting

OTTAWA, October 2, 2012 - At a recent meeting in Lahore, Pakistan, a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats have reached a consensus on a number of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs). More specifically, they have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarisation of the Siachen area, which has been a potential flashpoint between the two countries for many years. The participants in the process adopted by consensus a general report on their work and the specific proposal on the Siachen issue.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 22 Oct 2012 07:51

Another more general paper on CBM's and its thought process in the indo-pak context and the Track 2 team working on it.
India-Pakistan Military CBMs project Phase 1 - Final Report
The India-Pakistan military CBMs project held meetings in Dubai from 20-21 November 2011; Bangkok from 23-25 February 2012; and Lahore from 23-25 September 2012. Additionally, smaller, working group meetings took place in Chiang Mai on 21 April 2012, and Palo Alto from 30-31 July 2012. This report will summarise the main conclusions of the discussions. Appended to it is a proposal on the Siachen issue.
.....
The project reviewed the status of existing CBMs between the two countries. Based on presentations from the two sides, it was agreed that the main existing military CBMs are:
• DGMO Hotline
• Non-attack on nuclear facilities (1988)
• Advance notice of military exercises and maneuvers (1991)
• Prevention of Airspace Violations (1991)
• Link between the Indian Coast Guard and the Pakistan Maritime Security Agency (2005)
• Informal ceasefire along LOC/AGPL (2003)
• Joint patrolling along the international border and periodic flag meetings. Non
development of new posts
• Biannual meeting between Indian border security forces and Pakistani Rangers (2004)
• Advance notice of Ballistic Missile tests (2005)


List of participants: Co-chairs:
General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army Retd)
Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd)

Lieutenant General Sikander Afzal (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Rana Banerji (former Special Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, India)
Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry (Pakistan Air Force, Retd)
Lieutenant General (Retd) Tariq Ghazi (former Defense Secretary of Pakistan)
Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Indian Army, Retd)
Ambassador Vivek Katju (Indian Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Aziz Khan (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd) Admiral Tariq Khan (Pakistan Navy, Retd)
Ambassador Riaz Khan (former Foreign Secretary of Pakistan) General Tariq Majid (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Ambassador Lalit Mansingh (former Foreign Secretary of India)
Lieutenant General BS Pawar (Indian Army, Retd)
Major General Qasim Qureshi (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Brigadier Arun Sahgal (Indian Army, Retd)
Ajai Shukla (Journalist)
Vice Admiral A.K. Singh (Indian Navy, Retd)
Lieutenant General Aditya Singh (Indian Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Arvinder Singh Lamba (Indian Army, Retd)

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 22 Oct 2012 08:34

Ha the circus starts again.

There are three aspects to the Siachen issue. The first, in my opinion, needs transparent action at the government level. The first aspect is why should India, in the first place, agree to any demilitarisation of Siachen when it holds the dominating high ground on Saltoro Ridge and can command the strategic region, thus preventing a China-Pakistan link up in the region? Why should India vacate Siachen when Indian Parliament has passed a resolution that the entire Jammu & Kashmir (including Pakistan-occupied Kashmir) is Indian territory?

Why should India repeat the case of returning Haji Pir Pass when there is a strong possibility that the Pakistan Army will reoccupy the Saltoro Ridge and we will never be able to take it back again? India has lost a total of 814 soldiers in Siachen since 1984, but now due to superior facilities and a better economy, we can remain there indefinitely. So why should the sacrifices of our soldiers be forgotten, and why should we vacate Saltoro Ridge when we hold all the cards? Why should India not link Siachen to other issues like Pakistan-sponsored terrorism? Given its sensitive and emotive nature, I feel that the Indian government would need to answer the question why.

The second aspect is when should India agree to demilitarisation of Siachen? Here also the Track 2 discussed the political instability and the possibility of early elections looming in India and Pakistan. This question of when can only be dealt with by the next government at the Centre.

The third aspect, which Track 2 discussed and finally agreed to a proposal, is how to demilitarise Siachen?


Now does not discussing points 2 and 3 imply negation of point 1? Full marks to the track 2ers from Shitistan if these were discussed.God save india from the jokers on the Indian side for even discussing this.

Too many Samosa's to be deep fried till the Nobel Prize announcements next october.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 22 Oct 2012 08:47

^^ Am now realising why so many of our eminents from our sidekeep going to such junkets. Why wouldnt one go when getting free trips and promise of a good time in exotic places like Bangkok and Dubai.

Hell, wish someone would invite me to such chai biskoot sessions where we can discuss track 2/3/4 while enjoying a all expense paid holiday

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 24 Oct 2012 10:31

Are Indian bureaucrats not able to understand this or is it that political will is absent to talk of demilitarizing all areas next to Siachen on other side for confidence building measure? Hopefully the spirit of Simla agreement is not forgotten because both sides signed it anyways and it is therefore mandatory to adhere to it.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Oct 2012 18:27

ShauryaT wrote:The following paper, seems to address my concern better.
India-Pakistan CBMs Project: Siachen Proposal
Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments.

What 'punitive action', at what cost and what is the possibility of success in evicting the intruders ? What if Op-Grab-Siachen was enacted by the PLA-PA together ?

This is the dumbest idea at this point of time.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nakul » 24 Oct 2012 18:30

The Kargil war has given the idea that we can capture lost territory anytime. Even though the PAF was not involved and the PA did not put their full weight behind, it took us a lot of time and blood, not to speak money to get it back. If the chinese were involved, we might have the size of CoK increased to beyond Aksai Chin.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Oct 2012 18:35

SSridhar wrote:quote="ShauryaT"]The following paper, seems to address my concern better.
India-Pakistan CBMs Project: Siachen Proposal
Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments./quote]

What 'punitive action', at what cost and what is the possibility of success in evicting the intruders ? What if Op-Grab-Siachen was enacted by the PLA-PA together ?

This is the dumbest idea at this point of time.


Can we state that the following,

a) Indus water trety stands abrogated

b) CHildren of All Pakistani Army, CJP should be based in India and will be beheaded if they occupy Siachen.

If there is agreement on these 2 lines, I am all for this CBM.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nakul » 24 Oct 2012 18:38

All CBM guys, help this selfish SDRE to prevent terrorism in India. If india can get pakistan to sign a cbm that it will stop terrorism, then we can go ahead. Till then, let kayani smoke afghanistan's finest.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Oct 2012 19:20

nakul wrote:All CBM guys, help this selfish SDRE to prevent terrorism in India. If india can get pakistan to sign a cbm that it will stop terrorism, then we can go ahead.

nakul, we should wait for twenty years after India was convinced that Pakistani terrorism has been irreversibly eliminated (not just after signing an agreement because we are only too aware of the Pakistani perfidy) that we should cautiously contemplate taking the baby steps in Siachen.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Oct 2012 19:21

nakul wrote:The Kargil war has given the idea that we can capture lost territory anytime.

I do recall somebody saying this in 1948 about PoK. Should be that finest practitioner of realpolitik.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby nakul » 24 Oct 2012 19:27

SSridhar wrote:
nakul wrote:All CBM guys, help this selfish SDRE to prevent terrorism in India. If india can get pakistan to sign a cbm that it will stop terrorism, then we can go ahead.

nakul, we should wait for twenty years after India was convinced that Pakistani terrorism has been irreversibly eliminated (not just after signing an agreement because we are only too aware of the Pakistani perfidy) that we should cautiously contemplate taking the baby steps in Siachen.


It was a trick question. That's never going to happen (Pakistan eliminating terrorism on its own).

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 24 Oct 2012 21:41

We are dealing with the corps of the same generation who carried out AI hijack, attacked parliament, Kargil, 26/11 and are sending fake ICN, training IM, giving arms to naxals, training terrorists against us, piling up nukes to attack us and what not. There is no way we can trust these rapist, murderers, liars, barbarians, radical freaks.

if these ******** can take the US their master their feeder on a ride, lie to them, deceive them, double cross them then how can we be so sure of them respecting any agreement with us? And the history tells us they never had!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 25 Oct 2012 03:23

Knowing the sordid history of deception by the pukis, I don't know why Indian politicians continue to engage them. I was appalled when ABV invited Mushyrat to New Delhi after the Kargil aggression by them. MMS has opend up all kinds of travel facilities to the pukis to come into India, all in the name of CBM. Every Indian PM, I guess wants to have his name in history so they compromise on national security and not exercise common sense, which is that the pukis really are rats and untrustworthy. This is the kind of repeated soft peddling by our politicians that make the pukis think that we're stupid. If India vacates Siachen, it is almost guaranteed that the pukis and the chinese will capture it in few years' time. This whole clamoring by the pukis about Siachen could be at the behest of the chinese. :x
Last edited by Luxtor on 25 Oct 2012 06:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 25 Oct 2012 03:45

There has to be some explanation for this complete assinine and illiogical behaviour. Is there something wrong in the DNA set-up of dharmic folks when it comes to matters of realpolitik?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 25 Oct 2012 08:28

ShauryaT wrote:Three steps to Siachen
The Pakistani team were worried that if they agreed to authentication of the AGPL (Actual Ground Position Line), India may stop further discussions on Siachen, once the authentication had been carried out. Hence, an “integrated” approach was agreed to.

pack of bullsh$t. An agreement can always be made conditional and be void if not met in the decided timeline. The fact is pakistan is playing double game here. They want us out before they agree AGPL.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 26 Oct 2012 03:45

Full marks to the PR machinery from Shitistan. Note how such proposals start to get newsprint space whenever the Track II tamasha is held.
Sort of testing the waters and exercise to gauge/condition the targeted populace. What better way then to start on the best public strategic platform of india!!!!!

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Oct 2012 07:16

India’s interest compromised in Siachen
By Prakash Chandra Katoch on October 24, 2012

The Indian government is acting against the interests of the country by surreptitiously agreeing to a deal with Pakistan according to which it will withdraw troops from Siachen Glacier, the command of which gives India immense strategic advantages.

India is committing a strategic blunder by quietly agreeing to Pakistan’s demand for withdrawing from Saltoro Ridge in Siachen glacier. The Indian public and Parliament have been kept in the dark. A backroom deal has been concluded through questionable intermediaries with close ties to Pakistan.

Since November 2011, militaries of both India and Pakistan have held several rounds of talks to boost confidence-building measures. These meetings were held in Dubai (20-21 November 2011), Bangkok (23-25 February 2012) and Lahore (23-25 September 2012). Additionally, working group meetings took place in Chiang Mai (21 April 2012) and Palo Alto (30-31 July 2012). In the Track 2 round held in Lahore in September 2012, India and Pakistan signed an agreement to demilitarise Siachen despite the grave reservations of some members of the Indian delegation. The members who expressed reservations include a former ambassador, a former intelligence officer and two former officers from the Army and the Navy.

The decision to demilitarise, or rather withdraw from Siachen has been taken arbitrarily at the highest political level disregarding strong objections by successive army chiefs including the current chief, General Bikram Singh. He has even made a statement to the media opposing demilitarisation of the glacier. The agreement mainly includes setting up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, the map coordinate south of the incompletely demarcated disputed territory; joint authentication of present ground positions; determination of places for redeployment; disengagement and demilitarisation in a mutually acceptable time frame, and cooperative monitoring of activities to ensure transparency. The agreement states that reoccupation cannot be done speedily. This is absurd as it negates India’s ability to use helicopters for a lightning occupation. This gives Pakistan a huge advantage because the western flanks and glacial valleys of the Saltoro ridge are controlled by Pakistan. They do not have snow during summer and can be reached under cover of darkness and on foot in bad weather. The provision for technical surveillance is a red herring because of the tough terrain and extreme weather. It is important to remember that because of these conditions even the US with all its technical resources was surprised by India’s nuclear tests of 1998.

The Indian Government briefed the Lahore Track 2 team to keep in mind the Army’s stand that further talks would only be taken up after positions of both sides were authenticated on ground. The Indian Army’s concerns have clearly been ignored. The strategic importance of the Saltoro Ridge, especially in relation to Gilgit-Baltistan, Northern Areas, Shaksgam and Wakhan Corridor has been systematically obfuscated by a Government that retains far too much of power over electronic and print media. The Government has carried out a massive public relations exercise using gullible television channels to transmit the message that Siachen has no strategic significance. At one point, one so-called expert claimed that India holds the Karakoram Pass, which is a blatant lie. National dailies have refused to publish articles highlighting the enormous strategic disadvantage of withdrawing from Siachen. Similarly, this issue has not been debated on national television. There are rumours that the media is muffling any discussion on Siachen on the instructions of the Government.

The selection of Indian delegates who visited Lahore was incongruous. None of them had served in Siachen, not even the six army officers who were part of the delegation. The negotiating team did not bother to visit the conflict zone despite months of parleys with Pakistani officials at beautiful locations. Two former military officers in the delegation are infamous for their political connections. It is rumored that the Air Force four star officer is to be rewarded with an ambassadorship or governorship while the one star army officer is to be given another bag of carrots for towing the official line.

It is surmised that the Government is aiming for a Nobel Peace Prize to recover the legitimacy that it has lost after a succession of scandals. The Indian military has been castrated and is not allowed to state its views. Veterans who oppose demilitarisation are denied media forums. It is inconceivable that any other major power would shut its military out of the decision-making and discourse the way India is doing at the moment.

Jehangir Karamat, the former army chief heading the Pakistani delegation, understands the strategic significance of Saltoro unlike his Indian counterparts. Under his leadership, Pakistan has grabbed the strategic opportunity to attain all its key goals. The Atlantic Council of Canada that acted as the peace broker has promptly put out the news on the net. Shuja Nawaz, a Pakistani strategic analyst who heads the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council of the US, has close relations his Canadian counterparts. More worryingly, he has close ties with the Pakistani military and is said to be a trusted advisor to both Genaral Kayani and General Musharraf. Indians have long distrusted the Atlantic Council, which is perceived to be in bed with the Pakistani military and which has never really concluded its cold war love affair with Pakistan. It is incredible that India should agree to the Atlantic Council as a mediator as it is unlikely to be a disinterested party and, as per the old adage, Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion.

The Line of Control between India and Pakistan was originally drawn on a 1:250,000 map with a thick sketch pen without military advice. This has left an ambiguity as to the location of any given point on this line to the tune of about a hundred metres. Furthermore, the line does not follow ridge lines creating a source of constant and persisting hostility and acrimony. The same thick pen may be used once again in Siachen to devastating effect. A withdrawal from Siachen would facilitate further Pakistani incursions into Kashmir and put Ladadh, the Buddhist part of the state, under threat.

Gen Pervez Musharraf, the former Pakistani president and army chief, mentions in his autobiography In The line of Fire, that he was planning to put a battalion on Saltoro Ridge. Indian officers preempted his move. Since 1984, Pakistan has been trying to control Siachen. Pakistan invaded India in 1999 to control Kargil and cut off Siachen. Pakistan is attempting to eradicate its strategic disadvantage through both military and non military measures. People in Shia dominated Baltistan, the place close to Siachen Glacier, are being forcibly converted to Sunni Islam. The Pakistani state often sponsors Shia massacres. The idea is to create a strong base for Pakistani troops to advance from when they make their next move.

If India withdraws from Siachen, the new defense line will need additional troops. The new number will be many times the number of troops holding Siachen presently and the costs to the exchequer will increase exponentially. The joint agreement innocuously says in Annexure II, “Small-scale intrusions are neither significant nor sustainable”. This is absurd. Small scale intrusions can easily take place undetected in areas devoid of snow during summer months. They can then be staging posts for infiltration. The Indian army lost the flower of its youth in 1999 when Pakistani troops intruded to take the heights in Kargil. With no defense line in Siachen, Ladakh will be open to infiltration. Irregulars and members of the Taliban will be able to cross into territory that belongs to India, while Pakistan will deny culpability for ‘non-state-actors’. General Musharraf once declared that there would be many more Kargils in the future. Withdrawing from Siachen will make the general’s declaration a reality.

The public and the parliament have the right to ask the government why the Siachen issue has not been debated publicly and in the parliament. What exactly has Pakistan done to earn Indian trust? Has the anti-India terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir been dismantled? Has any progress been made in punishing the perpetrators of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks? Has the Government forgotten that Pakistan has repeatedly double crossed us? During a visit by a delegation from Pakistan to discuss confidence building measures, why was the Pakistan Army breaching the ceasefire? Why is Pakistan arming and stoking insurgencies in India? Why is the Pakistani intelligence trying to revive terrorism in Punjab? Why do American think tanks repeatedly state that Pakistan is the most dangerous place in the world? What does India gain from giving away Siachen?

ShauryaT
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Oct 2012 08:22

Siachen: To hold or to fold?
There have been many discussions on the need to de-militarise the Siachen Glacier. Why have India and Pakistan suddenly begun to believe that they were mistaken in holding on to the region all this while? What are the possible ramifications of de-militarising this strategic location?

Regardless of whether the Track II discussions have resulted in proposals urging for demilitarization of Siachen, there is no substantial national or parliamentary debate on the subject. Signing away such an important tract of territory held at great cost, without a practical dialogue, will be inappropriate and insulting to those Indian soldiers who have held these heights at great cost all these years.

There have been many suggestions on how such demilitarization can be made foolproof to ensure Pakistan does not encroach on posts vacated by India – including the right to take military action. But in this part of the world, might is right and holding these heights is vital.

Sometime in the distant future, when the LoC is converted to an actual border, perhaps India can consider a move to demilitarize Siachen. Till then, India simply has to keep holding it.

Xerxes Adrianwalla is a retired Brigadier of the Indian Army and a regular contributor to Gateway House: Indian Council on Global Relations.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 26 Oct 2012 08:25

A backroom deal has been concluded through questionable intermediaries with close ties to Pakistan.

Since November 2011, militaries of both India and Pakistan have held several rounds of talks to boost confidence-building measures. These meetings were held in Dubai (20-21 November 2011), Bangkok (23-25 February 2012) and Lahore (23-25 September 2012). Additionally, working group meetings took place in Chiang Mai (21 April 2012) and Palo Alto (30-31 July 2012). In the Track 2 round held in Lahore in September 2012, India and Pakistan signed an agreement to demilitarise Siachen despite the grave reservations of some members of the Indian delegation. The members who expressed reservations include a former ambassador, a former intelligence officer and two former officers from the Army and the Navy.

The decision to demilitarise, or rather withdraw from Siachen has been taken arbitrarily at the highest political level disregarding strong objections by successive army chiefs including the current chief, General Bikram Singh. He has even made a statement to the media opposing demilitarisation of the glacier.

Holy %^#&@

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 26 Oct 2012 08:38

WHAT THE FKKKK!!!

member_23370
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 26 Oct 2012 08:46

Manmohan and the Cong will not survive if true. I mean they will end like Najibullah in kabul. I find it difficult to believe it is true.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 26 Oct 2012 10:00

This is very serious and no news in the media. Absolute silence. Gen. Katoch's reputaion is on the line. Either he is lying or GoI is hinding a very important historic decision (sold out) from the public.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Oct 2012 10:16

abhijitm wrote:This is very serious and no news in the media. Absolute silence. Gen. Katoch's reputation is on the line. Either he is lying or GoI is hinding a very important historic decision (sold out) from the public.


To even think on these lines is preposterous. He is one of the stalwarts to ever do the Olive Green.

He is forewarning the nation about the perfidy of a bunch of thieves and traitors.

sum
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 26 Oct 2012 10:18

^^ Exactly...any other author and would have dismissed as just alarmist.

But now the alarm bells are well and truly ringing

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 26 Oct 2012 10:34

Is Gen.Katoch referring to Adm Nirmal Verma who was selected for ambassador position to Canada


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