Siachen News & Discussion

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pushkar.bhat
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 28 Oct 2012 00:18

Sanku wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote:for sure there will be a win-win-win for all the three parties.


With all due respects, the statement that there is a possible win-win-win for India Pakistan and China seems to suggest that we are considering a multi-verse scenario and are no longer talking about the reality of this poor simple earth with the at best cyclical time scales that most of us poor mortals are familiar with.


Yes, Sanku Maharaj we are talking of a multiverse scenario. Although this is getting OT I will still hazard the guess and say that in the scenario I am talking about the main deal will be between China and India, Pakistan will end up giving up a lot of claims on different pieces of real estate in favor of China and in return they may end up getting a demilitarized Siachen and we will jointly convert the LoC into a LAC. I know this all sounds complicated but there are no zero sum games between either India and China or India and Pakistan. Equilibrium's of some sort can emerge only when the three work out a deal together. Get any one of them out of the puzzle and the entire thing collapses.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 28 Oct 2012 00:29

pushkar.bhat wrote:Yes, Sanku Maharaj we are talking of a multiverse scenario.


Since you are yourself aware that we are now strictly dealing with improbabilities, can we stick to reality please.

It gets quite rather frustrating when serious life and death issues are given flippant comic book treatment.

Thanks in advance -- I am sure you will understand.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 28 Oct 2012 00:49

Sanku wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote:Yes, Sanku Maharaj we are talking of a multiverse scenario.

Since you are yourself aware that we are now strictly dealing with improbabilities, can we stick to reality please.

It gets quite rather frustrating when serious issues are given comic book treatment. Thanks in advance.


:) Ok my last one on this.. Its a complex world and sometimes black swans do happen.. :wink: :wink:

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 28 Oct 2012 00:55

Well I personally wont hold my breath for that, but I hope you are right there will be a black swan which works in India interests -- viz return to at least the currently claimed position by India on the map -- in a mutually agreed manner.

Lets pray for the best.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Oct 2012 02:54

Found the reference case, I was looking for. The last known supreme court judgment on the issue is based on the Tin Bigha Corridor agreement. Compared to that, Siachen is a walk in the park - from a legal angle.

Tin Bigha

On the question of sovereignty, all courts to whom this matter was referred have been unanimous in the view that there is no dilution of sovereignty. The Supreme Court has been the most emphatic on this point. It has stated that the lease in perpetuity has to be understood in the context of and with reference to the objects of the Agreements concerned. It has stated that no right to administer Tin Bigha has been given to Bangladesh nor had it been given the right to occupy parmanently the area or to construct buildings and fortifications therein or to lay railway lines through the area. The Agreements gave Bangladesh only specific and limited rights. The Supreme Court concluded that the Agreements did not amount to the lease or surrender of Sovereignty as understood in international law. This view accords with the view of the Government of India, and it is in this light that the Tin Bigha lease is being put into effect.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Oct 2012 04:37

ShauryaT wrote:India’s interest compromised in Siachen
By Prakash Chandra Katoch on October 24, 2012

It is rumored that the Air Force four star officer is to be rewarded with an ambassadorship or governorship while the one star army officer is to be given another bag of carrots for towing the official line.

It is surmised that the Government is aiming for a Nobel Peace Prize to recover the legitimacy that it has lost after a succession of scandals. The Indian military has been castrated and is not allowed to state its views. Veterans who oppose demilitarisation are denied media forums.


One Star Army Officer = Brig Gurmeet Kanwal?

ShauryaT quoted his writings extensively in advocating withdrawal from Siachen.

Air orce four star officer has to be a former IAF Chief of Staff. Which one?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 28 Oct 2012 04:52

ShauryaT wrote:Found the reference case, I was looking for. The last known supreme court judgment on the issue is based on the Tin Bigha Corridor agreement. Compared to that, Siachen is a walk in the park - from a legal angle.


ShauryaT:

Why are you bringing up this stuff? Of what use are the legal angles in this situation? Once the Indian Army is ordered to withdraw by the GOI, the game is over. What can anyone do after that? File a case in court? Suppose 10 years later the Supreme Court passes a judgement that the GOI was wrong in withdrawing from Siachen, will the Pakistani/ Chinese Army the obey that Supreme Court order and withdraw from Siachen?

I think you are just trying to twist the knife knowing things are going the way you would like them to. :(

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby RoyG » 28 Oct 2012 06:26

We cannot withdraw from Siachen. As long as the Pakistan Army is the dominant political player in the country, legalities don't mean anything. Why is this fugging point so hard for some on this forum to understand? Anyone advocating this "solution", should remember Kargil, terror attacks, ISI tie up with left wing and Islamist groups in the country, counterfeit currency, etc. It's the same PA which double crossed the Americans in Afghanistan and some still think we can achieve a "win-win-win"? Give me a break.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Oct 2012 09:22

Kakka ji: I am sorry but does not contribute to respond to why I do things. If you and many have a reasoned point of view then I believe, you should express it, for we can all learn and be informed. It is a discussion board after all - that is it.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 28 Oct 2012 09:37

ShauryaT wrote:Kakka ji: I am sorry but does not contribute to respond to why I do things. If you and many have a reasoned point of view then I believe, you should express it, for we can all learn and be informed. It is a discussion board after all - that is it.


That is rich coming form someone who has concistently disagreed wth all points of view other than their own in this very thread.

It matters not whether the government has the law on its side if it wishes to disengage from Siachen, but if the disengagement is in our interests or not. As it has been amply demonstrated in this thread and a plethora or articles by informed personnel, the negatives far far outweight any positives.

Those who fail to learn from the historical failings are condemned to repeat those failures. If after all these years of 1949, Haji Pir, Shimla and Kargil those in the government fail to see or choose to overlook the facts then their objectives are surely open to question.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby merlin » 28 Oct 2012 10:25

I have no doubt that MMS is trying to give away land to the Pakis if he can get away with it. Can he?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby chetak » 28 Oct 2012 11:43

merlin wrote:I have no doubt that MMS is trying to give away land to the Pakis if he can get away with it. Can he?



The nobel committee controlled by the US of A will decide this. :evil:

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 28 Oct 2012 11:48

Folks, I really doubt if any settlement is going to happen without touching the currently stated positions by either India, Pakistan or China. There will be give and take that will happen. India will not give-up Siachen heights without extracting appropriate safeguards.

I strongly believe that a agreement with China is on the table and both parties are very close to sealing a deal. PLA in PoK, Forward posturing by India in NE and Ladakh, Chinese official media stating that India's underbelly is its economy and not its military and last but not the least Indian media carrying full page descriptions of how the current dispensation in China has made huge monies since they came to power are not pure coincidences. Siachen, I believe is part of the puzzle. Other parts may include Afghanistan, Sikkim/NE India, Akasi Chin, areas north of DBO and parts of PoK. Expect Give and Take. That's the new normal.

Ladies and Gents, the checkerboard has been played and the game is in its final phases.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 28 Oct 2012 12:08

Im not one to make emotive appeals, but my uncle commanded the detachment that captured Bana Top (the former Qaid post). He was wounded severely, and won the VRC. Bana Singh won the PVC in this action, and Capt. Pandey was killed, along with several other men. Hundreds more such engagements have happened, and hundreds again have died in the cold, defending this space.

I reiterate, my viewpoint is coloured by my personal views, but I strongly feel that MMS should not be trying to barter away what has been won with blood.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 28 Oct 2012 12:40

pushkar.bhat wrote:Expect Give and Take. That's the new normal.



Pushkar-ji -- if you read enough history, you will realize that sell out, couched in high faultin words, is not a new phenomena.

Neither is strident opposition of nationalists to such moves.

There is nothing new here, or none of this is normal -- this is a battle between those who would sell India away for their ease and comfort and those who want the best and are not willing to compromise.

The ebb and flow of this battle goes back and forth -- but the fundamentals are same -- and this is war.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 28 Oct 2012 21:02

What are the challenges that is suddenly making India look for an excuse to evict from an advantageous position? No country in the world gives up anything (much less hard won strategically important territory) under any circumstances.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 28 Oct 2012 21:17

Kakkaji wrote: One Star Army Officer = Brig Gurmeet Kanwal?

ShauryaT quoted his writings extensively in advocating withdrawal from Siachen.

Air orce four star officer has to be a former IAF Chief of Staff. Which one?


Right on Gurmeet Kanwal. AF CAS is ACM Tyagi (retd.)

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 28 Oct 2012 21:23

Vipul wrote:What are the challenges that is suddenly making India look for an excuse to evict from an advantageous position? No country in the world gives up anything (much less hard won strategically important territory) under any circumstances.

This is one thing which has me scratching my head till now.

We claim that casualities are virtually nil these days and the cost really isnt that much as a % of the IA budget. Then what exactly is the excuse to evict other than the biggest BS reason i have ever heard, CBM/Aman-Ki-Tamasha?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 28 Oct 2012 21:39

Why is this muslim closet paki Salman Khurseed made the new FM? Looks like Manmohan and his coterie are up to something. I hope IA and intelligence are upto the task and can destroy anything these two traitors might try.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 29 Oct 2012 00:05

^^^^^

It appears that the Congress leadeship has lost its marbles. I know they like political light-weights, potentially with an appeal (however tepid) to their former minority vote-banks, but this chap appears to be a complete liability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Khurshid
Salman Khurshid appeared for SIMI, a group banned in India and frequently charged by Indian authorities with terrorist activities, as its defence lawyer, appealing the 2002 ban; in June 2006 the Supreme Court of India rejected the appeal noting "the appeal against the ban should be first argued before the tribunal established for the purposes".

In 2010, he was instrumental in making the Govt of India introduce the Enemy Property Bill, which gives the pre-partition owners of immovable properties and assets, rights to the properties and assets as against the law from 1968 which handed over the properties to the Govt of India. Salman Khurshid, interestingly was the counsel for the Raja of Mahmudabad, MA Mohammad Khan, who crossed to Pakistan at the time of partition, in the apex court. He also led a delegation of Muslim MPs demanding a larger and wider scope for enemy property claims from across the border.[6]

He started a new controversy in February 2012 when he claimed in Azamgarh that Sonia Gandhi cried after seeing pictures of Batla house encounter.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-19975652
India's Law Minister Salman Khurshid has warned anti-corruption activist Arvind Kejriwal against visiting his constituency.

"He can come to Farrukhabad but should keep in mind that he has to return too," he was filmed telling a meeting.

Mr Khurshid said as the law minister, he had to "work with the pen. But I will also work with blood," he added.

Mr Kejriwal, who accuses Mr Khurshid of embezzling funds for disabled people, said "killing me won't help".


http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-02-10/news/31046303_1_model-code-poll-code-violation

The Election Commission has censured Union law minister Salman Khurshid for violating the model code of conduct by promising 9% sub-quota for minorities in state government jobs if the Congress came to power in Uttar Pradesh.

The EC noted that Khurshid had violated the poll code as the announcement came even before the Congress manifesto was released. Besides, the 9% sub-quota promise did not even figure in the party manifesto released on January 31.

The EC, while censuring Khurshid, noted that he should have been more careful as a minister in the Central government who not only holds charge of law portfolio but also the department of minority affairs. Asking him to set an example for others, the panel said it expected him not to repeat such poll code violations.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/allegations-against-us-are-baseless-and-false-khurshids-wife/1/224633.html
An sting operation conducted by news channel Aaj Tak has revealed that the Dr Zakir Hussain Memorial Trust run by Salman Khurshid and his wife Louise allegedly forged signatures and faked stamps of senior officials of Uttar Pradesh to receive grants from the Union government for welfare of the disabled.

But it neither disbursed the aids meant for the handicapped nor has explained how it utilised those funds.

Dr Zakir Hussain Memorial Trust's "welfare activities" have been contested by at least 10 districts of the state and Aaj Tak has documents to prove it.

The Trust, of which Union Law Minister Khurshid is the chairman, is registered at his residence at 4, Gulmohar Avenue, Jamia Nagar, New Delhi. Its chief functionary is ex-MLA Louise Khurshid.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_23629 » 29 Oct 2012 00:41

^^^^
Hindus are paying a heavy price for their disinterest in who rules them. Adharmics are wrecking havoc with their land and long-term security. Chickens will come home to roost one day for the Hindus.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Oct 2012 04:28

ShauryaT wrote:Kakka ji: I am sorry but does not contribute to respond to why I do things. If you and many have a reasoned point of view then I believe, you should express it, for we can all learn and be informed. It is a discussion board after all - that is it.


I am sorry but it is you who does not have a 'reasoned point of view'. Your point of view is "Look, I am close to the people in power, they have decided to withdraw from Siachen, so it must be a good thing and you all should support it. If you don't support it, then every few days I am going to news clips, or columns from people close to power, that Siachen has to go, and is going from India's control." :roll:

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby RoyG » 29 Oct 2012 06:42

Swamy writes to PM opposing any move to demilitarise Siachen

Press Trust of India / New Delhi October 25, 2012, 21:15

Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy today urged Prime Minister Manmohan Singh not to accept any proposal to demilitarise the Siachen Glacier.

In a letter to Singh, he said Track 2 teams comprising military officers from India and Pakistan are learnt to have recommended to the Government to demilitarise Siachen Glacier area where "814 soldiers have died so far".

"I expect you will not agree to such an abject surrender of a strategic area," Swamy wrote.

The Janata Party chief also met Defence Minister A K Antony to raise the issue.

http://www.business-standard.com/genera ... hen/72537/


Media is absolutely silent. Unbelievable. I think this is being leaked.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Oct 2012 08:33

The reccomendation by ex military in the delegation is a farce....those who objected have been sidelined and a 3 man core group constituted to make recco....reccomendations which were asked to be made in first place by powers that be....BTW, Gurmeet Kanwal is part of this core group....he lives upto his reputation....General Katoch went beyond the callof duty last time he was called 1984.....by exposing the perfidy wrt Siachen, he has done somethibg similar this time as well..

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby member_20292 » 29 Oct 2012 14:18

varunkumar wrote:^^^^
Hindus are paying a heavy price for their disinterest in who rules them. Adharmics are wrecking havoc with their land and long-term security. Chickens will come home to roost one day for the Hindus.

well said

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 29 Oct 2012 14:58

Gurmeet Kanwal is an advisor, how come he can also be a decision maker? This entire Siachen saga is rotten fishy.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby MN Kumar » 29 Oct 2012 16:02

Two nations & a glacier~I
Beyond Siachen’s ‘Strategic Ego’
By Abhijit Bhattacharyya

FIRST thing first; let us note the views on Siachen expressed by two retired soldiers-turned-scholars; a Major-General and a Lieutenant-General. The former finds Siachen to be a “buffer certainly, but strategically irrelevant”. Accordingly, it has only “acquired a strategic ego” but “does not have any strategic significance”. The retired soldier now feels that “the costs of holding glacial heights are huge….Thousands of lives have been lost and roughly 30 Indian soldiers die every year due to harsh weather and killer terrain”. Curiously enough, after stating that “thousands of lives have been lost”, the former two-star general quotes Defence minister Antony’s statement in Parliament in August 2012 to contradict himself “that 846 soldiers have died since 1984”! For the ex-soldier “the bottom line, however, is to bring troops down from Siachen. A compromise has to be hammered out as strategic sense dictates demilitarization”.

The focus of the retired Lt-General who, by his own confession, “has been part of Track II dialogue with Pakistan” is “murky political atmospherics between the neighbours”. Note the ex-soldier’s unique attempt to equate his own country’s enterprise (of which he has been an integral part for close to four decades) as “murky” thereby putting India at par with a Pakistan that has been hostile ever since 22 October 1947 (Kashmir invasion forgotten?). Perhaps the enthusiasm of the new-found status of a Track II diplomat compels the veteran general to seek a “resolution of the problem of Siachen” as he finds “exciting” a reported “peace overture by the Paki army chief Kayani”.

Post-retirement, the general’s attention appears to have diverted from India’s security to economics as he feels that “for India the estimated annual financial burden of approximately Rs 1000 crore to maintain the desired force levels at Siachen is avoidable”. He refers to it as the “Siachen dispute”.

Understandably, both ex-servicemen are under a magnetic and mesmerizing effect of Aman ki asha (Hope for Peace) slogan of a group of people who have taken recourse to a “trust-development, trade, migration, visa, tourism, commerce and people-to-people contact” with a country which is being eschewed by the world for being the global factory of jihad, terrorism and fundamentalism.
One, however, is not surprised, being a follower of the forces of Indian history and the pathetic (should one say sympathetic!) record of the geographical politico-military history to guard and defend its western and north-western border from Alexander (327 B.C) to Kargil (1999 A.D) and beyond, an area where cross-border terrorists from Pakistan now have put Indian soldiers on tenterhooks.
In fact one is dismayed to find such an unusually high degree of pacifism and withdrawal in the post-retirement psyche of such senior and decorated soldiers of India. The retired officers need to be reminded that to suggest that Siachen is “strategically irrelevant” makes their views look “hollow and irrelevant” because after 35-38 years of practical wisdom on the hostile terrain their views matter for telling the truth and describing the reality with conviction. And not for parrotting the short-term political slogans at the behest of the country’s non-security amateurs.

In contrast with the views of the retired generals, the present Army chief, General Bikram Singh, appears crisp, focussed and clear about Siachen’s “strategic importance to India” as it is vital to hold on to current troop positions on the icy battlefield. General Singh is opposed to any troop withdrawal. “We must continue to hold” as Chinese soldiers continue to be “present in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir”.

The question, therefore, stands “settled”, albeit temporarily. It is temporary because the image of a pacific India’s vacillation and appeasement politics (which is already well known) will in future cost New Delhi dear. Indeed, border security management has been a case of chronic failure for the Indian ruling class as it has traditionally been adept in dealing with the subject in a cavalier manner. They need to be reminded that security is not to be confused with, or confined to, the urban centres only.

The territory of India begins with the border and that cannot be left at the will and wishes of God Almighty alone. It hardly needs iteration that no nation in international relations (between sovereign states) can remain vacant or be left as “no-man’s-land” on the basis of “goodwill, good neighbourliness” or for the sake of “peace of our times” etc. The present standoff between Beijing and Tokyo around the remote, sparsely populated and tiny islands in East Asia or the Argentina-UK war over the Falkland Islands in 1982, more than 6000 miles away from London, are only two examples. The advocates of the “Siachen-withdrawal” may argue on the basis of “high altitude casualty” and the resultant “cost-push factor”. Such reasoning betrays a poor understanding of physical geography, geopolitics and the psyche of the hostile people operating around an eternally vulnerable and violent west and north-western frontier.

The psyche of an element of Indian dispensation should also be examined as it appears to play a vital role to re-shape Indian policy, unlike the days of the strategy-minded Indira Gandhi, arguably the main architect whose signal contribution in reshaping the contours of South Asia has not yet been fully understood, appreciated and appraised. In fact, one is alarmed over developments involving foreign affairs with little concern for India and Indians, entities on which rests the foundation, lives and livelihood of 1.2 billion people.
This brings us to the legal and constitutional obligations vis-a-vis the honest intent of India’s leadership to bring about a so-called solution of the Siachen “problem” which has often been referred to as “occupied” by India. Let us, therefore, examine Siachen through the prism of the Constitution and Parliament. For the information of those wanting to “bring down troops from Siachen and compromise on the question of “demilitarization”, Article 1(1) of the Constitution stipulates that “India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States” and Jammu & Kashmir (within the territory of which Siachen falls) is one of the 28 states which constitute the “membership of the Union & the Territory of India”. Significantly, while defining the “name and territory of the Union”, Article 1(3)(c) clearly stipulates that “the territory of India shall comprise”, amongst other things, “such other territories as may be acquired”. This means that the Constitution is transparent about “acquisition” of “foreign territories”, should the situation so demand, thereby turning it into a “part of the territory of India” under Article 1(3)(c) and by law admitting into the Union under Article 2.

Since Jammu & Kashmir is a part of India, Siachen automatically becomes a part of the Union of India. Hence any reference to its being “occupied” by India would be void ab initio. One has a simple question to ask. What is the official, legal and diplomatic stand of the Government of India regarding the cartography, political and physical maps and atlases of the world? Does the Government of India recognize or allow import or print of any map or atlas from any quarters with a “cartographic aggression or error pertaining to Jammu & Kashmir”? Has it ever tolerated any depiction thereof as a “divided territory”? Do the Customs officials in charge of import of books (included in which were the iconic Encyclopedia Britannica) and maps through the various ports, airports and land stations allow, or have ever allowed and cleared, such distorted maps? Then why this sudden confusion and contradiction between theory (banning and seizing books/maps/atlas) and practice (proposed withdrawal of border guards from one’s own official territory and professed public/national/international policy)? No doubt Siachen is a high-altitude post; but that is what the army of a nation is maintained and meant for; to guard, to maintain eternal vigilance. That is the “price of liberty”, as succinctly expressed by the legendary Professor Harold Laski.
(To be concluded)

The writer is an alumnus of the National Defence College of India and a Member of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London
Last edited by MN Kumar on 29 Oct 2012 16:28, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 29 Oct 2012 16:09

^^ Link please

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Vipul » 30 Oct 2012 04:05

The (Con)gress goons/Aman Ki Tamasha & Pappi Jhappi gang aka Snake oil salesman / and others have organised a well thought out strategy of taking willing ex-military folks (and inducing the non-willing ones through plump postings) on the Track II to give a fig leaf of a certificate of all is well to evict and get the Piss prize glory.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby vishvak » 30 Oct 2012 19:25

Vipul wrote:The (Con)gress goons/Aman Ki Tamasha & Pappi Jhappi gang aka Snake oil salesman / and others have organised a well thought out strategy of taking willing ex-military folks (and inducing the non-willing ones through plump postings) on the Track II to give a fig leaf of a certificate of all is well to evict and get the Piss prize glory.

Obviously the innocent people on Indian side are too innocent to notice how pakis or Chinese do not behave in the same manner, offering strategic peace deals at their own cost alone for pappi jhuppi sessions and some temporary deals in return that can be expected from backstabbers.

Educated establishment on Indian side must find it hard to argue when strategic/permanent "offers", at the cost of nation of course, does not get anything more than "temporary peace" or what is called taqiya-like arrangements that are given legitimacy in any agreements. Unsaid part of this is how a few people get to sell interests of country because of misconception that any amount of papp-jhappi sessions and personal benefits are not enough to balance national goals and real politic. Otherwise the educated gang would have been quick to get benefits for Indian state and people when things started becoming clear that Kargil was not intrusions by irregulars which of course could not be detected in early stages by the educated from anywhere in the first place. The sellout is also another excuse to not leverage to the maximum such benefits lest pappi jhappi sessions become any less simple and pleasant.

Of course no one can tell the educated establishment that matru-bhumi can not have any such deals even strategic in exchange of anything strategic because obviously the educated establishment is innocent.

Instead of taking the maximum advantages of new information about how Kargil was a paki army operation, the pappi jhappi gang are going for another 'deal' to barter Indian lands, even strategic, for temporary peace deals with known backstabbers.

Chinese and even pakis don't offer such deals, or for that matter any country would not perhaps, I wonder why.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby kapilrdave » 30 Oct 2012 20:10

It is a misconception that Indian educated class are naive or they support these CBM BS. I have yet to see an Indian (including some muslims) who trusts pakis - educated or uneducated. The mass celebrations of world cup win on pakis shows how much we all hate pakis. It is the top political class and some moron babus who pretend to speak for the people of India (as in every other matter) as if they are the 'India'. It's shame that we can go on streets for a cricket match but not for national integrity issue.

I also find it strange that these rascals can find some soldiers to support them as well. I mean how can a soldier sell its motherland? I can understand corruption in arms purchase. But selling the piece of motherland? We all know that a politician can sell his own mother if the price is right, let alone motherland. But a soldier?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 30 Oct 2012 20:18

What worrying me is deaf silence from BJP and other nationalist organisations.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby AbhiJ » 30 Oct 2012 21:08

Cornering Gadkari with Scams and War of words with Modi is keeping the Mango Man, BJP and the Stupid Media all busy.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby RoyG » 30 Oct 2012 21:21

-Deleted-
Last edited by RoyG on 31 Oct 2012 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

sum
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby sum » 31 Oct 2012 08:09

^^ Wrong dhaaga, RoyG saar?

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2012 21:34

Gentlemen, the perfidy with respect to the Siachen issue is coming to fore. And whatever Lt. General Katoch had written, is true to letter T.

We need to track and analyse this development for much is at stake here. I request the moderators to make this thread as 'sticky' for foreseeable future.

I will be putting out couple of posts on the topics, including a gist of conversation between people within and on outside of this debate.

To begin with, the press release by the Atlantic Council on the CBM with respect to Siachen as agreed in Lahore. Posting in full:

(http://www.acus.org/press/india-pakistan-experts-agree-confidence-building-measures-lahore-meeting)

India-Pakistan Experts Agree on Confidence-building Measures at Lahore Meeting

October 02, 2012

OTTAWA, October 2, 2012 - At a recent meeting in Lahore, Pakistan, a group of retired senior officials, military officers and diplomats have reached a consensus on a number of Confidence-Building Measures (CBMs). More specifically, they have agreed on a proposal regarding the demilitarisation of the Siachen area, which has been a potential flashpoint between the two countries for many years. The participants in the process adopted by consensus a general report on their work and the specific proposal on the Siachen issue.

These discussions are undertaken as part of a project on conventional confidence-building, which is jointly organized by the University of Ottawa and the South Asia Centre at the Atlantic Council. The project is supported by the Near East and South Asia Centre for Strategic Studies at the National Defence University and the United States Institute of Peace, with additional support from Stanford University.

The participants in this process have decided to continue their work on these matters, and have accordingly asked the organizers to prepare a new round of meetings.

For further information on this process, please contact the two co-chairs of the discussions:
General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army, retired) Jehangir.karamat@gmail.com or Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force, retired) sptyagi2001@yahoo.com.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2012 21:44

Part II

List of delegates from both the sides:

Pakistan

General Jehangir Karamat (Pakistan Army Retd), CHAIR
Admiral Tariq Khan (Pakistan Navy, Retd)
General Tariq Majid (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Sikander Afzal (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General (Retd) Tariq Ghazi (former Defense Secretary of Pakistan)
Major General Qasim Qureshi (Pakistan Army, Retd)
Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry (Pakistan Air Force, Retd)
Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Aziz Khan (Pakistan Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Riaz Khan (former Foreign Secretary of Pakistan)

India

Air Chief Marshal Shashi Tyagi (Indian Air Force Retd), CHAIR
Lieutenant General BS Pawar (Indian Army, Retd)
Vice Admiral A.K. Singh (Indian Navy, Retd)
Lieutenant General Aditya Singh (Indian Army, Retd)
Lieutenant General Arvinder Singh Lamba (Indian Army, Retd)
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Indian Army, Retd)
Brigadier Arun Sahgal (Indian Army, Retd)
Col Ajai Shukla (Journalist)
Rana Banerji (former Special Secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, India)
Ambassador Vivek Katju (Indian Foreign Service, Retd)
Ambassador Lalit Mansingh (former Foreign Secretary of India)

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 31 Oct 2012 21:50

viewtopic.php?p=1276460#p1276460

And the latest one on current Siachen issue, it is going to be a biting climax; result is predicted to swing both sides.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 31 Oct 2012 21:51

The Siachen Proposal

http://www.acus.org/files/Siachen%20Proposal%20-%20Lahore%20September%202012.pdf


India-Pakistan CBMs Project

Siachen Proposal

There was further discussion on the proposal for the demilitarisation of the region and for stringent and cooperative monitoring and verification of this.

After considerable discussion a suggestion achieved consensus which seeks to have these activities occur as part of an overall package. Recognising that both countries have a divergence of views, it was felt that such an approach is more likely to create forward movement.

Accordingly, as a part of the comprehensive resolution of the Siachen dispute, and notwithstanding the claims of each country, both sides should agree to withdraw from the conflict area while retaining the option of punitive action should the other side renege on the commitments. The following clear package of integrated and inter-linked stipulations were laid down for the demilitarisation of the area and delineation of the line:

-Set up a joint commission to delineate the line beyond NJ 9842, consistent with existing Agreements;

-The present ground positions would be jointly recorded and the records exchanged;

-The determination of the places to which redeployment will be affected would be jointly agreed;

-Disengagement and demilitarization would occur in accordance with a mutually acceptable time frame to be agreed (see Annex 1);

-Prior to withdrawal, each side will undertake to remove munitions and other military equipment and waste from areas of its control; and

-Ongoing cooperative monitoring of these activities and the resulting demilitarized zone would be agreed to ensure/assure transparency (see Annex 2).

In keeping with the Simla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration both sides should undertake that resolution of this issue is a bilateral matter and that there will be no change in the status of the area and also that no personnel of any third country will be permitted
within it unless cleared by the two countries jointly.

Annex 1

Suggested Time Frame for Demilitarisation

Schedule for Demilitarisation

Operational principles:

• Establish a Joint Working Group to recommend detailed re-deployment and oversee implementation of the process.
• Variability in process is likely due to frequently changing weather conditions.

Weather forces disengagement to be conducted during the summer season (May –
September)

Determination of the place (s) to which redeployment will be effected and the time frame to be recommended by the Joint Working Group.

Mechanism for joint management of the demilitarized zone to be recommended by the Joint Working Group.

Possible Phases of Demilitarisation (with appropriate waste and munitions removal at each phase)

Phase 1: Withdraw medium artillery located near Base Camps (e.g., Dzingrulma, Gyari)

Phase 2: Withdraw troops and field artillery from Northern, Central, and Southern battalion sub-sectors
• Forward posts, including crew-served weapons posts
• Declare staging camps where troops from forward positions will transit through in the process of re-deployment
• Dismantle camps after withdrawal

Phase 3: Withdraw from forward logistics camps on or near the Glacier
Phase 4: Dismantle remaining logistics camps
Phase 5: Withdraw from base camps
Phase 6: Dismantle or convert base camps to scientific/civil use

Ongoing: Cooperative monitoring and verification of demilitarization (see Annex 3)

Annex 2

Monitoring and Verification of the Demilitarisation

Overall Concept

• Monitoring initially, by national technical means

• Phase 1: Monitoring and verification of disengagement during the establishment of the DMZ
o Verify that posts, logistics centers, and base camps vacated

• Phase 2: Post-disengagement monitoring of the DMZ
o Verify that military personnel and equipment do not re-enter the DMZ

• On an ongoing basis, the primary monitoring and verification mechanisms will be both bilateral and cooperative

Goal is to verify withdrawal and dismantlement of military facilities

• Visual: The withdrawal from Indian and Pakistani posts within line of sight of each other is to be coordinated so each side can observe the activities of the other. Ammunition and heavy weapons which cannot be moved immediately will be temporarily stored in-place and subject to joint verification and monitoring.

• Joint Aerial Reconnaissance: A pair of Indian and Pakistani helicopters will rendezvous at an agreed location and then fly together along the Forward Battle Positions in the agreed sector to visually verify and photographically record
withdrawal and dismantlement of post or logistics camp.

• On-site inspection: Both sides have the right to request that its representative land by helicopter at a location to confirm withdrawal and dismantlement.

• Unilateral activities: Both sides should agree not to interfere with the other’s national technical means Goal of detecting illicit re-occupation of positions within the DMZ

• Monitoring and verification considerations:
o Nothing happens quickly on Siachen; logistics and weather drive all
o The possibility of a quick, stealthy reoccupation, without an air bridge, is remote
 Aerial operations are obvious
 Small-scale intrusions are neither significant nor sustainable

• Monitoring and verification should focus on logistics
o All Indian logistics flows through Dzingrulma
o Pakistan has multiple logistics routes through civilian villages
Last edited by rohitvats on 31 Oct 2012 22:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 31 Oct 2012 21:57

All ex army chiefs were conveniently kept out of this sell out.


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