Siachen News & Discussion

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Utterly insane to read about the types of conditions and terrain the IA has to fight in. That too in the 1980s!
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Manish_P
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Om Shanti!

Sad to read that his son had passed away earlier this year. May god give strength to the family.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by arshyam »

A legend has passed! Om shanti.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Can 2020 end any worse? We lost Colonel Bull Kumar.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Sanju »

Om Shanthi!
Y I Patel
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

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Y I Patel
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

Starting page 72 of this thread, I have some detailed posts on the Indian deployments in Siachen Glacier. Having a koo account now gives me the ability to post maps that show the terrain. In this, I have two different views of the Sia La complex...

https://www.kooapp.com/koo/YIPatel-3T905/FRJA3
AkshaySG
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Y I Patel wrote:Starting page 72 of this thread, I have some detailed posts on the Indian deployments in Siachen Glacier. Having a koo account now gives me the ability to post maps that show the terrain. In this, I have two different views of the Sia La complex...

https://www.kooapp.com/koo/YIPatel-3T905/FRJA3
Thanks for this , I had missed the amazing writeups you posted in 2017 and found them just now , Fantastic reads and definitely improved my mental picture of the Siachen Glacier by 10x
SRajesh
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Could I just ask what exactly did the Army Chief say about Siachen
There's a Coupta video on it
And Shyam Saran also going on about it in Indian Express
Is there some sort of 'Track Foo' going on
Terroristan published their Security Document
And Army Chief says something about Siachen and suddenly all those dormant peacenik 'Weevils' are coming out of the woodwork!!
Add to this heady cocktail an 'Olive' called Sidhu, hope we don't end up porous border nightmare
Any concessions like this is just what the Napaks are looking to get out of the mess they are currently in.
Hope we dont fall into that trap again!!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Shekhar Gupta has a new video on it. COAS didn't say much that isn't the existing stance, that is, demilitarization might be considered if Pak accepts the ground positions with ironclad guarantees. Which they won't do. So it's just talk with an olive branch. Makes us lose nothing at this moment.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Look at the army youtube channel. It has the entire press con. The question came out of nowhere.
S_Madhukar
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

Every time Bakis are weak they float these narratives and our sellouts repeat them to keep Chanda flowing. And this usually happens every 10 years like clockwork just as Baki economy rolls over :rotfl:
Problem is our media has short term memories and the younger junta might think this is something amazing , something Bakis will always keep trying, can’t fault them for their taqqiya
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Luxtor »

Why is Siachen even a cause for concern for the pukis while their economy is tanking? Why is India even entertaining their overtures on this? Tell them to go away and stop bothering us with this. :roll:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Muzaffarabad-Yarkand road makes Siachen demilitarization unworkable.

On January 12, three days before the Army Day, Chief of Army Staff Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane replying to a question on his views on the demilitarization of Siachen Glacier said that the Indian Army was not averse to it but the precondition for that was that Pakistan accepted the 110 km actual ground position line north of NJ 9842. The Army chief was responding to questions which were submitted in advance.

Gen Naravane said, “We are not averse to the demilitarization of the glacier but the pre-condition for that is to accept the AGPL. Pakistan has to accept what are their positions and what are ours, and both of us have to sign on the dotted line before any kind of disengagement takes place. What is happening in eastern Ladakh is quite similar…first disengagement, then de-induction and de-escalation, which is another way of saying demilitarization.

While Gen Naravane spelt out the Indian Army’s position on the issue, the matter has become far more complicated for national security planners with Pakistan and China proposing a road connecting Yarkand in Sinkiang to Muzaffarabad in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir through Shaksgam Valley, a 5193-square-kilometres territory that Pakistan illegally ceded to China in 1963. The Shaksgam Valley lies in the trans-Karakoram range watershed.

Area maps clearly show that Rimo Glacier, Teram Shehr Glacier and the Siachen Glacier are located within the Indian union territory of Ladakh. The adjoining areas of these glaciers are PLA dominated territories like Shaksgam Valley and Yarkand Valley in the north and PoK in the west in addition to the warlike deployments by the PLA in Aksai Chin opposite Daulet Beg Oldi sector in the east. The PLA has a history of aggressive transgressions into what the Army calls sub-sector north and it is adamant in blocking the Indian Army patrols in Depsang Bulge south of DBO with massive brigade-level deployments at Tein Wein Dein (TWD) across the Line of Actual Control (LAC) facing DBO Indian post.

Image

Although the Army Chief is in the knowledge of these facts, the proposed Muzaffarabad-Shaksgam-Yarkand Valley road will not only boost the military interoperability between two iron brothers but also pose a two-front threat to Indian forces in the sub-sector north.

The Indian Army controls the Saltoro Ridge that provides ingress into Siachen Glacier since 1984 post-Operation Meghdoot. Siachen Glacier is located in the eastern Karakoram range, just northeast of NJ 9842, where the Line of Control between India and Pakistan ends. Teram Shehr and Rimo Glaciers are located East of Siachen glacier and south of Shaksgam and Yarkand Valley, where the PLA has deployed nuclear missiles. These glaciers under Indian control not only provide access to Shaksgam Valley and Yarkand Valley but also provide depth to defence of Siachen and DBO sector.

The military situation in the area is quite precarious with China building all-weather access to Pakistan via Karakoram Pass, just 18 km from DBO plateau, and trying to militarily impose India rejected 1959 line on the LAC in Ladakh. All-weather friend of China, Pakistan is proposing the Muzaffarabad-Yarkand Valley road so that it can put pressure on the Indian positions on Siachen in the name of trade with China.

Under the circumstances, it would be militarily prudent for Indian Army to put the demilitarization of Siachen on the back-burner till such time the Chinese PLA agrees to respect the Ladakh LAC and restores April 2020 status quo ante as well as allow India unhindered rights to patrol Depsang Bulge and Charding Nullah Junction (CNJ) in Demchok sector. Faced with a two front threat from iron brothers, demilitarization of Siachen at this point is an unworkable idea.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

I have never understood why we don’t ask for the Baki piece of land and surrounding area below Siachen to establish ourselves nicely as a guarantee for demilitarisation … and if Chini Abu wants peace etc he can contribute as well, that CPEC ain’t going anywhere. Rational negotiations don’t work anymore. Just keep repeating ad nauseam . May be we can even name a price these days :rotfl:
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

whole of POJK and POL is ours. Why small piece of land?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

We've been hearing that for 75 years, but still haven't taken it back. If you don't have control over it its not really your's, you simply have a claim on it. Its time we stop claiming and start OWNING such territories.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by mody »

POJK is full of rabid pakjabi morons. Except for gaining control over the Haji Pir pass, I wouldn't want anything else to do with POJK.
Baltistan is another matter and we have to strive to get control over all of Baltistan and strike a peace deal with the Chinis for a tri-junction border at Khunjerab pass. This will preserve their CPEC investments, but all traffic would be under our watchful eye and solve the Siachen problem.
Anyways the baltis and most people of the Hunza valley, do not have any love for the pakjabi dominated terrorists army.

The pakis have always dreamed of a tri-junction border at the KK-pass. Just shift it a little to the west at Khunjerab pass and a lot of our problems would disappear.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

+1Modyji we just need enough strategic land all around LoC, how deep that should be is something for IA to quantify but this constant defensive posture and justification/explanation from our end on Siachen should end. The criminals should be questioned not the upright and decent.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

We must just get

1) Shakargarh Bulge without Sialkot- Paki population can flee from Evil Yindoos
2) Poonch Bulge
3) Neelum Valley
4) Baltistan

And Independant Baluchistan with a thin rail and road corridor with India with a Gas pipeline,

This will help in ensuring longer peace, development of Afganistan- good access to CAR region and slowly the Pakjabi rackit mards will take the journey through Afganistan to Turkey to Europe and reducing their population.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Neelam valley was discussed in some the previous posts in a seprate thread. If we were to take, our positions would be behind a river. Never a great from logistics pov
in any case without ghar wapsi, it would be dangerous to bring in such rapid breeders in india. they would skew the demography and what not..a long term plan needs to formulated. there was a separate thread endgame of paxtan...
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

ArjunPandit wrote:Neelam valley was discussed in some the previous posts in a seprate thread. If we were to take, our positions would be behind a river. Never a great from logistics pov
in any case without ghar wapsi, it would be dangerous to bring in such rapid breeders in india. they would skew the demography and what not..a long term plan needs to formulated. there was a separate thread endgame of paxtan...
Neelam Valley population is not very high and we get control over Sharada Peeth and access another Access to Baltistan via Minimarg.

Pakistan would also have no access and it stop the Kupwara infiltration route which all someone needs is to cross a small river . Poonch Bulge and Neelam valley are the direct access points for militants to the valley.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by mody »

We can take Minimarg and Astor from the Gurez sector, without taking control over the entire Neelam valley.
As far as access to Baltistan is concerned, as Gilgit would remain with the pakis, the access would still be open. For us, there will be the Kargil Skardu road and the Srinagar Skardu road, both of which can be made into 4 lane highways if required.

Taking control over Baltistan would mitigate any risk of the Pakis and Chinis teaming up from the North, plus it solve the Siachen problem and we would be able to withdraw bulk of our forces from the region. Also, the Baltis are no fan of the pakjabi army and like their brethren in Kargil, Turtuk etc. would assimilate with India more readily. Same with the people of the Hunza valley, who have a distinct culture and language.
It would also somewhat deflate the separatists narrative in Kashmir valley, as a another muslim majority area would become part of India and mostly be peaceful.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

mody wrote:We can take Minimarg and Astor from the Gurez sector, without taking control over the entire Neelam valley.
As far as access to Baltistan is concerned, as Gilgit would remain with the pakis, the access would still be open. For us, there will be the Kargil Skardu road and the Srinagar Skardu road, both of which can be made into 4 lane highways if required.

Taking control over Baltistan would mitigate any risk of the Pakis and Chinis teaming up from the North, plus it solve the Siachen problem and we would be able to withdraw bulk of our forces from the region. Also, the Baltis are no fan of the pakjabi army and like their brethren in Kargil, Turtuk etc. would assimilate with India more readily. Same with the people of the Hunza valley, who have a distinct culture and language.
It would also somewhat deflate the separatists narrative in Kashmir valley, as a another muslim majority area would become part of India and mostly be peaceful.
Anywhere you open a front with the pakis, many "locals", and ISI stooges from other provinces will rush in using one excuse or the other. A few will settle in the open, ie be visible but a lot of these scum will simply vanish into the Indian hinterland.

A great many pakis are very keen to cross over because they know that things on this side are actually very much better and the Modi govt provides viable public good and services without discrimination

If you block or regulate their movement, it will become an HR disaster in addition to becoming a hegemonistic boundary issue

The hans are well aware of our interests which they may or may not respect but they cannot claim ignorance

If one takes territory from another, even disputed territory, one has to be prepared to dig in and hold it at the cost of much Indian blood and treasure.

Even though we are in the right as far as cashmere is concerned, look at the mess that has played out over the past 70 odd years

Many options and their fallout need to be factored in, not just barebone premises

The need to weigh the paki, cheeni, and the paki + cheeni scenarios is inescapable.

Always remember that the cheeni have, not even for a moment, reconsidered their original option of the BRI running primarily through India. It's is their safest, cheapest and most preferred option, one with the least risk and the max payoff

they have three points of entry into India, via lanka, via beediland and via pukestan and very carefully and cunningly they have yet to flesh out the Indian routes in any detail.

I have a very strong suspicion that many of these routes terminate at major Indian ports and use Indian rail and road infrastructure to transship and carry goods to and from the cheeni hinterland

If the MOU signing clowns come to control the govt in India, the hans will simply walk in and the wokes, commies and the jehadis will be overjoyed to welcome them in

gwadar is just a side story and a feint of sorts. The cheeni were always acutely aware of the jehadis, the subzero all round the year freezing and hostile terrain and climate along the path of the pipelines, the security, and maintenance nightmare involved, and the massive power requirements to keep the oil pipelines heated to ensure that the oil is held at a temp that allows it to be pumped and that it can flow

They need gwadar mostly for militarily dominating the gelf shipping routes and a safe harbor for logistics, repairs, and massed forces if required

Good infrastructure like ready built ports, railways and roads, hospitable climate and a docile population are all available only on the Indian side, more so now, especially after gadkari has laid the framework. Sure, they will pay the GOI a pittance in the guise of tolls and carriage rights


All that they need to do is to pay off politicos and babooze and the MOU has already been signed

I suspect that the cheeni are not done yet with the BRI and India....
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Why Siachen Matters To India
https://stratnewsglobal.com/india/why-s ... -to-india/
20 Jan 2022

India isn’t averse to demilitarization of the Siachen Glacier, given that Pakistan accepts the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) that divides the positions of the two countries, says Indian army chief General MM Naravane. India was forced to take countermeasures on the world’s highest battlefield after Pakistan unilaterally tried to change the status quo in 1984. ‘Operation Meghdoot’, which led to the capture of the glacier is the Indian Army’s longest uninterrupted operation. In this episode of ‘The Gist’, one of the heroes of that operation, Lt Gen Sanjay Kulkarni (Retd), talks about the strategic significance of the glacier where nearly 800 Indian soldiers have died on the line of duty due to the difficult terrain and harsh weather. He is in conversation with StratNews Global Editor-in-Chief Nitin A. Gokhale.

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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by wig »

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... isk-365918
Siachen demilitarisation not worth the risk

excerpts
Understandably, every Indian is entitled to his own view. However, the bottom line is that Siachen shouldn’t be seen or acted upon in isolation. It is to be dealt with on a bigger canvas, in the overall strategic perspective of the state. It cannot be plucked from nowhere and acted upon as a knee-jerk reaction.

Siachen has been and still is part of the physical geography of the independent state of Jammu & Kashmir since June 1947, which acceded to India in October 1947. However, after the first Kashmir war between India and Pakistan in 1947-1948, the location didn’t find a place in the de facto demarcation, resulting in the Line of Control (LoC). Nevertheless, that doesn’t, in any way, take away the reality that Siachen was, and is, an integral part of Jammu & Kashmir which became a legal territory of India. In a way, Siachen continued as “No man’s land” from 1947 to April 1984, when then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi ordered the Army to take its physical possession. Being an astute geopolitical strategist, she was aware of the adage that land “empires” like China, Russia and Britain in their “expansive phases, pushed out their frontiers until they meet with resistance...of a physical barrier which makes a natural point of rest.”

some facets of our Govt working when suggestion to demilitarise Siachen were made
An unpleasant glimpse of India’s “behind the scenes” Siachen manipulations can be had from The Accidental Prime Minister, written by a former adviser to then PM Manmohan Singh. “Defence Minister Antony was politically conservative and risk averse and depended excessively on the advice of IAS officers, inexperienced in strategic policy and defence... To add to this, Dr Singh had to also contend with the declining quality of defence services leadership... For me, the first sign of this decline was evident in the manner in which the Army chief... dealt with the Siachen issue. In closed-door briefings, the General would say that a deal with Pakistan was doable, but in public he would back Antony when the Defence Minister chose not to back the Prime Minister.”


Just how bizarre an Indian establishment scenario could possibly be! The incumbent Army chief too talks of the possibility of “demilitarisation of glacial region in Siachen”, subject to Pakistan authenticating troop deployment along the 110-km-long Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL). Now, here again comes the reliability factor. Is Pakistan or China known to adhere to diplomatic commitment? Can India really take a chance? After being at the receiving end for more than seven decades of ceaseless aggression resulting in irretrievable and irreversible territorial loss? Is the Indian establishment dead sure that a demilitarised zone (from which troops have been/or will be withdrawn) won’t be filled up by either of the China-Pakistan axis?

Interestingly, aside of the present Army chief, a former diplomat and a senior Army officer too appear convinced that “Siachen is a most inhospitable theatre and the extraordinary human and material costs...would justify a review”. In the Army officer’s view, too huge an expenditure has been given as one of the prime reasons to take a step back to avoid casualty and save cash.


In an ideal condition, one could be happy to endorse the stand of wise counsel. Nevertheless, there exist two serious supplementary issues too. First, isn’t India already facing a crisis of sorts on the Ladakh front, pertaining to demilitarisation and futile military talks on status quo ante bellum?

India has stepped back. But have the Chinese reciprocated? No, not yet. And there’s nothing to show that either status quo ante bellum or the retreat of the Chinese will happen in the foreseeable future.


So, Siachen isn’t a routine military expenditure on a limited but hazardous and tactical battlefield in inclement weather. Siachen is directly linked to the Constitution of India also. No doubt, Siachen posts haven’t yet been vacated, but if one goes through Articles 1 and 3 of the Constitution, one would get the answer pertaining to its demilitarisation. The Constitution only allows “acquisition” and “accession” of “territories” and not “cession”, even if it is referred to as withdrawal.

In fact, there exists a strong possibility of the vacant Indian plot (notwithstanding its height and location) getting lost. If so, that will surely create a repeat of the 1966 Tashkent-type humiliating scenario in which despite winning its own land of Jammu and Kashmir from the Pakistan army, the then Prime Minister and his diplomatic entourage succumbed to a third-party host and relinquished Delhi’s inalienable and sovereign right over its own land.

Ironically, if India’s consistently principled Jammu & Kashmir stand is that it’s her territory, then what’s the logic of even a single inch of the territory to go out of her hand? Shouldn’t Delhi take a cue from the Dragon’s stand: “Not a single inch of Chinese territory will be ceded to anyone,” and that Taiwan is an integral and inviolable “part of China”?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

I know we talk about Siachen being inhospitable… I know it is not flat rock like Tibet border is where Sugars have built good infrastructure. If we can build really comfy posts close to Siachen or some of its posts with TV and phone, oxygen tents or whatever like Sugars do and show them off then this Siachen debate can subside for good. Also have a “High Altitude Research centre” of some sort :wink: to show it is not just a military post. Let the Bakis and the world be presented with our lavish style. Let this be made part of encyclopaedia and mountaineering mags. I am sure with our Antarctic experiences we can learn and adapt. We should be “so comfortable it is home” otherwise it looks like we are clawing to it. Assuming MoD actually listens!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

S_Madhukar wrote:I know we talk about Siachen being inhospitable… I know it is not flat rock like Tibet border is where Sugars have built good infrastructure. If we can build really comfy posts close to Siachen or some of its posts with TV and phone, oxygen tents or whatever like Sugars do and show them off then this Siachen debate can subside for good. Also have a “High Altitude Research centre” of some sort :wink: to show it is not just a military post. Let the Bakis and the world be presented with our lavish style. Let this be made part of encyclopaedia and mountaineering mags. I am sure with our Antarctic experiences we can learn and adapt. We should be “so comfortable it is home” otherwise it looks like we are clawing to it. Assuming MoD actually listens!
Good on paper, sirjee, but it'll never happen. Our troops are stationed at altitudes and terrains that even experienced mountaineers try and spend AS LITTLE TIME as possible, due to threats from exposure, avalanche, and blizzards. If you look at how and where mountaineers pitch their tents on a route, it might be a 10 ft by 10 ft piece of 'relatively' flat terrain. But nothing is safe. Our soldiers live, fight, and patrol in these conditions. Even capturing Bana top is an achievement that if you ask mountaineers, they would shake their heads in disbelief. But a slightly more conservative reading of your ideas -- allowing increased mountaineering and exploratory opportunities is certainly not a bad idea, as long as our security posture there isn't compromised.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

We can vacate Siachen if we occupy our land around it. Otherwise no way.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Fully vacating Siachen is not a good idea even if AGPL is accepted. Siachen has enabled us to develop and learn unique operational tactics.
Never know when those will come in use elsewhere in future. Better to maintain the lead in operating in such conditions.
Its like operating an aircraft carrier. Cant be learnt overnight.
Probably budget and troop strength can be rationalized. Some relaxation in patrolling if weather is not conducive.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

arvin wrote:Fully vacating Siachen is not a good idea even if AGPL is accepted. Siachen has enabled us to develop and learn unique operational tactics.
Never know when those will come in use elsewhere in future. Better to maintain the lead in operating in such conditions.
Its like operating an aircraft carrier. Cant be learnt overnight.
Probably budget and troop strength can be rationalized. Some relaxation in patrolling if weather is not conducive.
Additionally, as the headwaters of the Nubra river, for the purposes of water security, we need to hold that territory, especially since it can act as a potential leverage if China messes with the Indus water flow in any way. Plus, the Siachen Glacier complex forms a natural dividing line in the basins, with the Nubra & Shyok rivers on one side, and the Saltoro river on the other side, so from the point of view of generally accepted norms of boundary-laying, our current AGPL makes sense, even as a temporary (till we recover PoK) boundary line.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Imported for over 20 years, battledress of Siachen soldiers can now have a Make in India tag.

Though three generations of his family were in the military, Rohit Bedi chose corporate life. It took him to KLM Royal Dutch in Dubai and AOL Time Warner in the US, among others. But the pull of the Indian Army was too strong to resist.

About 12 years ago, he decided he had had enough of the US and returned to India to start a boat charter company in Goa. But a sense of unfulfillment lingered. Then the Make in India campaign caught his attention, and a picture started emerging in his mind about what he wanted to really do. Bedi says he wanted to “work with the army as a matter of honour” and started exploring entrepreneurial pursuits that can plug gaps in the defence sector. That was when a massive opportunity struck him.

Coming from an army background, Bedi knew that the Indian defence forces imported the dress used in high-altitude areas — the extended cold weather clothing system (ECWCS). “I saw a gap in the product supply and decided to bridge it. I also wanted the jawans to wear new-age, comfortable quality apparel across temperature ranges,” says Bedi, 46.

To implement his idea, he called his childhood friend Munish Hinduja, whose family was in textiles. “Rohit called me one day and proposed the idea of making clothing for the Indian Army soldiers posted in places with extreme winter. These clothing items are mostly imported,” says Hinduja, 49.

ECWCS is a 3-layer modular clothing system designed to keep the wearer alive and functioning in temperatures of up to -50 degrees Celsius. Indian Army soldiers use this product at high-altitude regions such as the Siachen Glacier. Hinduja says India has been importing this clothing system for over 25 years from mostly the US and Europe. Recently, some imports have come from Sri Lanka, says Hinduja.

The duo decided making this product in India was a fruitful venture and started research and trials in 2017. They formed Aroo in Bengaluru in 2017. But it took them another five years before they could secure approvals to supply to the army. As of today, Aroo has supplied over 60,000 ECWCS sets to the Indian Army.

Innovation and investment
For a country that shares a long and volatile high-altitude border both on the eastern and western fronts, self-reliance in these clothing systems is crucial for the armed forces. But over 50% of the requirements of these clothes are met through imports, says MK Gupta, Chair-Defence & HLS Committee, PHD Chamber of Commerce and Industry (PHDCCI). The country faces a deficiency in ECWCS supply because most indigenously developed products have not met the quality parameters, he says. “The private sector was not too involved in this sector. There has been very low or negligible investment in R&D to develop globally competitive ECWCS. If we had focused on R&D, we would have become self-reliant by now and could even be exporting,” says Gupta.

But that changed in December 2021 after the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) transferred the ECWCS technology it had developed to five private companies.

Aroo isn’t on that list. However, Hinduja says, what sets Aroo apart is that it is the first private company in India to bring a prototype for ECWCS sets. “We passed the field trials in 2017. Back then, we had no competition. This is a very long, meticulous process. You may have built the technology, but executing it is equally important. We welcome this competition and we are very confident of our product’s quality. We have delivered two contracts now, and they have been well accepted by the army,” he says.

The domestic market for high altitude clothing was Rs 942 crore in FY19-20, says Gautam Nanda, Associate Partner, Aerospace and Defence, KPMG in India, referring to a report by the Ministry of Textiles in 2020. This number is expected to reach Rs 1,273 crore by FY24-25. Hinduja estimates the global market size to be around $2-4 billion.

India is the second largest clothing and textile exporter in the world, with a total exports of $44.4 billion in FY22, according to IBEF. The country has about 4.5 crore workers in the sector, including 35.22 lakh handloom workers. Yet, it seems it has not been able to make any significant strides in manufacturing ECWCS clothing.


Victory in first round

Nanda points out that the corporatisation of the Ordnance Factory Board in 2021, the government’s focus on making India self-sufficient India, and the initiatives taken by defence PSUs to rope in private players as business partners will lead to the creation of a domestic value chain in such niche products. “Also, special clothing and extreme mountaineering (SCME) clothing have been included in the positive indigenisation list; these products will not be imported. The wheel has been set in motion under the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative to make these in India. The domestic industry will get attracted to actively participate in the development of indigenous technology for India’s ECWCS demands,” he says.

Explaining the technology behind ECWCS, Hinduja says that this clothing system has to meet two criteria. “It needs to be waterproof under a certain pressure for a certain duration of time and has to provide a certain warmth level to the soldier at climates from -20 up to -50 degrees Celsius. The clothing system should also be able to protect you from winds that can go up to 50-60 km an hour,” he says. The product has to be technically breathable as well. “It is a combination of textile and material science.”

Hinduja explains that an ECWCS set comprises three layers. The first, closest to the skin, is a knitted fleece layer to keep the wearer warm; the second layer is to sustain the person in temperatures of about -25 degrees Celsius. “The third is the white or camouflage layer that we see in a lot of the photographs of soldiers in Siachen. So, it has three layers with 6 six garments — three jackets and three trousers,” he says.

Aroo has partnered with an OEM manufacturer to make the clothes it has developed. Hinduja says 50% of the raw materials in their product is local. Aroo makes 15,000 sets of ECWCS a month.

Fighting the cold feet
Aroo’s ECWCS sets are priced at Rs 18,000-20,000. Hinduja says that it is 30% cheaper than the imported ones. The company has so far executed two contracts worth Rs 200 and Rs 250 crore for the Indian Army.

Though Aroo started as a bootstrapped venture — the founders invest about Rs 40 lakh — it has been getting interest from investors. But Bedi and Hinduja are not in a hurry to rope them in. “We still have a lot to grow as a company. We’d like to do a lot more in terms of products and innovation,” Hinduja says.

Bedi added that the company is looking at product diversification in apparel as well as gear and also looking at international opportunities across apparel and gear.

He is candid that there is not much business visibility, as they do not know when a contract will come their way. But they have to keep their factory open and train workers. “This is a highly skilled process. Some 700 people are involved in tailoring operations. They go through complex training to ensure that each particular function is done perfectly. We actually have traceability of quality of every single unit through a unique number. So, I know exactly how that garment is going to perform. But after fulfilling a contract, we have to wait months for the next one. So that generally creates losses.” Then there is the danger of workers leaving after getting trained.

Aroo’s ECWCS sets are priced at Rs 18,000-20,000.

More growth avenues
To bridge this gap, the company has started to work on more products. It is now developing a trouser that can be worn at a slightly lower altitude of around 12,000 feet — against ECWCS’ 18,000 feet. It has cleared the army’s field trials. Hinduja says they will begin its supply from next year.

Aroo is also looking to export ECWCS sets. Hinduja says they have begun talks with some European countries. But the field trials’ results take time so there is nothing to report yet. The product has passed the field tests conducted by the Italian Navy, though no orders have been finalised.

KPMG’s Nanda says apart from the army, extreme cold climate clothing is also used by mountaineers and tourists. “It is a relatively small market, but a company that is in the line of protective clothing can consider exploring allied markets. To name a few categories, fire-retardant apparel and fabrics, high-visibility clothing and bulletproof jackets,” he says.

PHDCCI’s Gupta points out that consumption trends and the Make in India drive can fuel the production of such products from India, a low-cost manufacturing destination. “We already have demand, we just need to create the right manufacturers,” he adds.
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

I actually posted on a different group but I think this is more appropriate

Original Post on 27 Jul here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2869&start=1680

Gist

We supply a lot of fuel to Siachen to keep our troops warm and there must be logistical nightmares.

Wouldn't it make sense to have a decaying isotope sealed for safety which can keep the tents warm and when coupled with a Stirling Engine can even produce electricity which can keep sets charged with a small form factor unlike solar photovoltaic.

Small modular nuclear reactor, the new nuclear tech, can produce enough electricity to produce O2 locally in Siachen and if u really want to flaunt those Chinese TV rooms

I am sure the first part can be done with existing tech if our RnD orgs decide to work on it. How can this reach the right ears.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

Do our military guys read science fiction? Even old Soviet magazines would do ? MoD is incorrigible but still … I see most of the novel concepts that will come to fruition this century were already thought of in the past century
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Energy density is a factor and so are avalanches.
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

For most places the cost does not justify the tech but it is definitely not science fiction. Space probes have used nuclear batteries.

For most civilian uses it would be a bad idea to use radioactive devices for space heating, weighing the risks and benefits, but for for military purposes it makes quite sense especially in Siachen.

I might be wrong but would like to be proven such. I request the devil's advocate.
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

pravula wrote:Energy density is a factor and so are avalanches.
Nothing beats nuclear in energy density. Mass is the densest form of energy.

How do we handle other stock say diesel during avlanches. A fully sealed container (with it's integrity intact) which stays warm if lost in an avalanche will start sinking till it hits rocks.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Dexter wrote:
pravula wrote:Energy density is a factor and so are avalanches.
Nothing beats nuclear in energy density. Mass is the densest form of energy.

How do we handle other stock say diesel during avlanches. A fully sealed container (with it's integrity intact) which stays warm if lost in an avalanche will start sinking till it hits rocks.
<S on> Do you mean if I lug a bottle of Deuterium up there, I can warm the mountain up? Do we have an agreement with avalanches to prevent radioactive leaks and the dense engineering needed to prevent thermal meltdown of these nuclear batteries? </S off>

Sorry, energy density is not just measured based on just components, but on the full system.
You should look at the nuke accidents. All of them were thermal meltdowns, not an accidental nuke bomb.
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

Nuclear Power Plants traditionally had active cooling ie some energy was needed to cool them. We are talking of large 200MW type plants.

Latest designs strive to create passive systems, which means that those systems will not melt down even if subsystems fail, there is nothing to manage in temperature actively. Entire cooling is passive like a bottle of hot water would cool in atmosphere. This is true for design of small modular reactors although I am aware that AERB/BARC was working on passive cooling even for large size nuclear reactors

What I am talking about is still simpler. It's a dumb decaying radioactive isotope packed in a case such that the case stays warm due to this. I am not even talking of power generation here in the first case. This itself I believe should reduce a lot of logistical issues faced in transportating diesel for space heating. It will not heat the mountains ofcourse but should keep a tent warm. FYI D2O is not radioactive and won't work

Such systems have been used aboard spacecrafts for the purpose of space heating. What I am not sure is how safe such systems can be under risk of avalanche but I would like to think that they can be made safe.

Such a system, since it stays warm, given enough time will cut through ice and I estimate will sink deeper if lost in an avalanche.

Edit.
Added Wikipedia link of Radioactive Heater Unit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiois ... eater_unit
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