Siachen News & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Dexter wrote:
pravula wrote:Energy density is a factor and so are avalanches.
Nothing beats nuclear in energy density. Mass is the densest form of energy.

How do we handle other stock say diesel during avlanches. A fully sealed container (with it's integrity intact) which stays warm if lost in an avalanche will start sinking till it hits rocks.
Dexter ji,

How will it "stay warm"...

The liquid inside may not freeze but a "fully sealed container" (with it's integrity intact) will quickly reach the temp of the ice/snow and stay put or get moved as the snow (if and when) itself moves.

As the snow piles on, at times like blizzards, the container may not be so easy to locate, especially in deeper snow.

kerosene freezes at @ −40°C, petrol at @ -60°C and diesel starts to gel fairly early at @ −15°C to −20°C
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

Please no 'ji' for me

A radioactive material will continuously generate heat. It is a heat source, unlike diesel/petrol which are to be burned before they can release heat.

And ice is a thermal insulator. So the part of ice which is in touch with the container will slowly lose strength and mildly melt allowing the container to sink. This is what, I estimate will happen based on my knowledge of physics.

However, that is not the critical part. The wiki article claimed that space craft containers are designed to avoid risk of radioactive contamination even on accidental re-entry. So I guess we can design something that can handle an avalanche.

The radioactive element may not be Plutonium which can be weaponised but has long life for space applications. For Siachen even a life of 5 years if good enough.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Why would you want to put a nuclear reactor somewhere like Siachen? It'll have a bulls eye painted on it. Quickest way to contaminate the water supply and entire food basket of the sub-continent.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

Dexter, isotope based RTG types are considered dangerous even in space probes and those isotopes are manufactured by very small bespoke fabrication labs in US (and earlier USSR). They are considered mostly for deep space probes beyond Mars.

Kerosene is the primary heat source for almost all super-cold expeditions and even by late 90s, IA had extensive pipelines that transport the same to even the most remote base stations. It does not freeze but has sooting issues inside cold weather habitats. But even that are usually handled nowadays by externally located generators that produce electricity for electric heaters. And Siachen, except during really inclement weather is not inaccessible via air for supply. Plus as others pointed out, contamination by accident or enemy action is high. The nuclear approach has very less appeal compared to a space probe.

Power sources for sustenance was never the big problem to solve in Siachen, oxygen for human lungs was and still is. Auxiliary oxygen is not the answer to that, as Chinese are finding out.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

Thank you hNair Sir for the information. It was insightful.

I believe the risky RTG uses plutonium since we can never refill the space probes. In Siachen, annual refill would be a luxury compared to today's logistics so I guess much safer alternatives exist.

Using nuclear was to reduce the cost of deployment in Siachen, since transportation is excessively expensive. I understand, it's not our bottleneck like oxygen is, however, cost reduction may be preferred.

Agree on the risk due to enemy action. However, several reports point that since Irag war, US has focused on small nuclear powered devices to keep its forward posts equipped. I believe there must be a doctrine to use it and keep it safe although I wasn't able to find any.

My reason for this post was to deliberate if anything like that makes sense for us starting with Siachen where it will save large logistical costs.

On the last part of O2 for humans, as you pointed out, even if we can concentrate it, we can't put our soldiers on it since acclimisation is the key. Possibly providing O2 for 6-7 hours a day by slowly increasing and decreasing the concentration may help reduce stress during deployment without reducing acclimisation. No idea there, just curious.
ks_sachin
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Acclamitisation of troops happens prior to deployment. Infact that is the first step and starts before Leh AFAIK.

Then HAWS etc kick in before deployment to glacier.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Dexter wrote:However, several reports point that since Irag war, US has focused on small nuclear powered devices to keep its forward posts equipped.
Any links to this?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

pravula
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Micro reactors are not new or old. See https://www.nuscalepower.com/en/Product ... SMR-Plants
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

ks_sachin wrote:Acclamitisation of troops happens prior to deployment.
I am aware. I was hypothesising (without a medical background) if deployment stress could be reduced by providing small qts of O2 for some time during deployment. Again beyond my and possibly most forum members area of expertise. I wrote it just because good ideas are sometimes deceptively simple and this might be one.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

On small modular reactors, I believe that they will play an important role in future wars where destruction of infra would be common strategy. Decentralised power generation could be a critical strength.

The low hanging fruit could be disaster support or remote bases but this capability seems easy to master with India's exisiting know-how/why and should be developed.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Dexter wrote:On small modular reactors, I believe that they will play an important role in future wars where destruction of infra would be common strategy. Decentralised power generation could be a critical strength.
OTH, they would be bombed first thus contaminating the area which our side has to abandon.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

I saw this in Aditya G's Twitter feed, and wanted to draw attention to some remarkable implications of the image below:

Image

The link to the tweet: https://twitter.com/_Reincarnate/status ... 7aytAsAAAA

What is remarkable is that the exhibit in the Kargil war memorial depicts Jaguars (?) bombing close to Navdeep Top. If the exhibit faces northwards, Jaguars attacking up Chalunka Gorge, then the foreground is south of Chulung La, and the peak of Garkun is in the background (to the north). Chulung La would be to the east, roughly below the right-most Jaguar. The bombs seem to be landing to the south of Chulung La, implying that the Indian defenses on South Glaciers were breached.

If my interpretation is true, there's so much we still do not know about the Kargil war, after all these years.

Here's a link from earlier in this thread on the back story on how Navdeep Top came to be named:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2145&hilit=siachen+ ... start=2800
Y I Patel wrote:
...in that map, take a look at the Chulung La area just south of NJ 9842, where the LOC passes to the east of the gorge that ultimately leads down to Chalunka. You will notice that there are two peaks that straddle the LOC. The one on the east was with India, and the one on the west is, if my reading of Gen VP Malik's account is correct, Point 5770. This point is now known as Navdeep Top after (then) Major Navdeep Singh Cheema who led the operation to capture it in 1999 during Op Vijay. According to Gen Malik this was an operation to rival the capture of Bana Post, and slammed the door shut on Pakis for the southern glacier region. If you look at the topography of that area, you can see why. The Colonel commanding that operation was Konsam Himalaya Singh, who later retired as LtGen. Apologies if there have been posts on this before, but this is a tremendously exciting discovery for me.

The revelations on Op Vijay (Kargil) that have come out in the last 10 years indicate that Indian commanders took the opportunity to interpret the thick line representation of LOC rather liberally to occupy some key posts in the Chorbat La to Southern Glacier area. Two accounts of key gains are out there - one on capture of Point 5770 that I mention here, and one on a key point overlooking Chorbat La that was conducted under command of then Brig HS Panang. I have read about them only recently, and have been pouring over the topography in Google.

This big take away is that through those operations, India has pretty much sewn up the entire SSW, and can even threaten a flanking move to overturn Pak defenses facing Thang and Turtuk. Also, the entire Southern Glacier area south and east of Guyong La is now firmly under India's control. More later, as inclination stirs me, on the larger implications of this.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Y I Patel wrote:<SNIP>
Usual suspect back to his favorite topic on BRF! :mrgreen:

In case you've not already seen these, some details and pictures of Navdeep Top
(The amount of stuff about Indian Armed Forces and their history making it to social media and otherwise in public domain is mind-boggling. To older generation like us its like a treasure trove)

Details of the operation from excerpt of the book written by then 27 Rajput Commanding Officer. This is first hand account of the incident. Has a picture of Navdeep Top.

The ops in SSW was called Operation Thunderbolt.

https://striveindia.in/point-5770-navdeep-top/

Good pics: https://www.esamskriti.com/photograph/5 ... 1223195145
(I know you'll pick-up one line from this picture :mrgreen: )

Another source of picture and details: https://www.esamskriti.com/photograph/1 ... 1223195145
Dexter
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Dexter »

Vayutuvan wrote: OTH, they would be bombed first thus contaminating the area which our side has to abandon.
Possibly, also possibly US has this doctrine because they fight long distance wars where enemy has almost no air support.

May be the idea is not good for India.
I am not aware if these plants can be brought underground and reduce any risk of bombing but that's a possibility I see.

Nevertheless, not something that's starts with Siachen I guess
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Dexter wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote: OTH, they would be bombed first thus contaminating the area which our side has to abandon.
Possibly, also possibly US has this doctrine because they fight long distance wars where enemy has almost no air support.

May be the idea is not good for India.
I am not aware if these plants can be brought underground and reduce any risk of bombing but that's a possibility I see.

Nevertheless, not something that's starts with Siachen I guess

The micro reactor I had posted is designed to be buried.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

Hi Rohit

so glad I got your attention, and thank you for the links below. You knew what would grab my attention - the innocuous sounding statement that the Pakistanis occupied the feature after it was vacated by our troops in winter... I mean, WTF? A feature on southern Siachen Glaciers, with dominating view lines over vital Pakistani as well as Indian LCs, voluntarily vacated in winter!

Several thoughts, in no particular order of importance:

* Some time after the conclusion of OP Vijay, when Lt Gen Arjun Ray became GOC 14 Corps, he moved Siachen Brigade commander out in disgrace. It's been 25 years, so let's name names - the officer is Brigadier Katoch, later seems to have been reinstated and became an Army Commander if I am not mistaken. So this is why he was temporarily in disgrace - but the implication is that he would not have have vacated the position without clearance from Army HQ, hence the reinstatement. Probably would have become COAS if not for that slip, he had quite an impressive career

* Reams have been written about possible Paki motivations for their incursions, but let's introduce a simple one: the Pakis were alert to this unbelievable opening and they would have been criminally incompetent to let it go unexploited. Strategically vital heights were vacated out of complacence and also distraction due to ongoing terrorism in the Valley. Maps depicting Paki infiltration do no justice to the mortal danger posed to India's positions all along southern AGPL and LOC. The only saving grace was BSF occupation in winter of Chorbat La which gave us the foothold to fight back

* Indian style is not to say these things out loud, but it all comes out - note the well placed IAF painting depicting the bombing of the Paki "Pimple" position to the south of Chulung La (information on Pimple in Rohit's linked article below).

* The action led by Maj Navdeep Cheema was truly incredible, and rightly evocative of the operation to capture Quaid Post. The same approach of carefully laying ropes, attacking from a near impossible direction to achieve surprise... However, like Longewalla, who really won it? Was is Army, or was it IAF through its bombing? IAF is holding a dignified silence, but looks like it was used as Arty because Paki arty firing directed from Pimple or thereabouts made IA positions around Chlunka untenable. There are enough articles out there of the hammering IA took around Turtuk/Chalunka. The whole situation in SSW was an unholy mess despite some heroic initial responses. Now it comes out that IAF had a huge role in retrieving the situation, and not just by bombing Muntho Dhalo and Tiger Hill. To paraphrase Jackie Shroff, the truth is captured best in the movie Border: Akele hum hain to kya hum hain, akele tum ho to kya tum ho

* Hopefully, with time, the full story in all its glory will be told. We know it starts badly, but we also know the end. The full story will reveal just how incredible the victory was

* Keep all of this in mind when discussing theater commands, etc. None of this will be spoken about explicitly, but nothing is forgotten either

* Again, notwithstanding the decisions prior to Kargil, the gate is firmly shut now. There's a road almost right up to Chulung La which is quite visible on Google maps along with a lot of Heli Pads and other installations. Moreover, and of massive importance, is an under-construction road connecting Hanu Thang to Turtuk: https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... urtuk+road. This road will enable a much shorter connection to Turtuk and southern Glacier complex, will not involve passing through Khardung La. Also on Google maps, follow along the same road but slightly to the south of Chorbat La - some very interesting roads that can only have military use. Now arty and Pinaka can be rolled right up to the ridge to interdict Pakis all the way to Khapalu! Likewise, if arty can access the heights of southern Glacier complex via the road through Chalunka Gorge, then it can hammer the vital Paki LC to Ghayari

* Never again must India think of any part of the border as being inaccessible from either side. This especially relates to the the great wall of India overlooking Shaksgam valley
rohitvats wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:<SNIP>
Usual suspect back to his favorite topic on BRF! :mrgreen:

In case you've not already seen these, some details and pictures of Navdeep Top
(The amount of stuff about Indian Armed Forces and their history making it to social media and otherwise in public domain is mind-boggling. To older generation like us its like a treasure trove)

Details of the operation from excerpt of the book written by then 27 Rajput Commanding Officer. This is first hand account of the incident. Has a picture of Navdeep Top.

The ops in SSW was called Operation Thunderbolt.

https://striveindia.in/point-5770-navdeep-top/

Good pics: https://www.esamskriti.com/photograph/5 ... 1223195145
(I know you'll pick-up one line from this picture :mrgreen: )

Another source of picture and details: https://www.esamskriti.com/photograph/1 ... 1223195145
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Y I Patel wrote:Hi Rohit


* Some time after the conclusion of OP Vijay, when Lt Gen Arjun Ray became GOC 14 Corps, he moved Siachen Brigade commander out in disgrace. It's been 25 years, so let's name names - the officer is Brigadier Katoch, later seems to have been reinstated and became an Army Commander if I am not mistaken. So this is why he was temporarily in disgrace - but the implication is that he would not have have vacated the position without clearance from Army HQ, hence the reinstatement. Probably would have become COAS if not for that slip, he had quite an impressive career
Is it same Brigadier Katoch that had opposed demilitarization of Siachin that was proposed by Ms. Gandhi and Mr. Man Mohan Singh and duly supported by thibktank having retired officers like Shukla and Kanwal? If he is the same person than he more than redeemed himself with this episode.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

fanne wrote: Is it same Brigadier Katoch that had opposed demilitarization of Siachin that was proposed by Ms. Gandhi and Mr. Man Mohan Singh and duly supported by thibktank having retired officers like Shukla and Kanwal? If he is the same person than he more than redeemed himself with this episode.
He is also the same Lt General Katoch who as a Major led the team of 1 Para Commando in the opening phase of Operation Bluestar. Was seriously injured in the attack and had to be evacuated. Later, was part of 1 Para Commando during IPKF as well. Has a very sharp military mind and very aggressive in his definition of national security.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Y I Patel wrote: <SNIP>

* Some time after the conclusion of OP Vijay, when Lt Gen Arjun Ray became GOC 14 Corps, he moved Siachen Brigade commander out in disgrace. It's been 25 years, so let's name names - the officer is Brigadier Katoch, later seems to have been reinstated and became an Army Commander if I am not mistaken. So this is why he was temporarily in disgrace - but the implication is that he would not have have vacated the position without clearance from Army HQ, hence the reinstatement. Probably would have become COAS if not for that slip, he had quite an impressive career
Good to connect again with you, my friend.

It has been a very long time since I looked-up anything on Siachen. All (cartographic) energies focused against the Chinese :mrgreen:

Coming to then Brigadier Katoch and Siachen Brigade - Well, let me share something with you.

When this whole issue of Siachen and 'Mountain of Peace' issue exploded, someone showed me the email exchange between Veterans with Shukla on one side (he was part of the Track-2 team).

The exchange had some very strong language but there is one comment from Shukla about competence of Lt General Katoch which stood out for me and which I still remember it - That maximum/most serious incursion took place in his sector when he was Siachen Brigade commander.

Was there some truth to Shukla's statement? I don't know. Plus, since he'd made the statement when he'd been accused of being a sell-out on Siachen and with Lt General Katoch leading the charge, the statement seemed more like an accusation made out of anger and spite.

I've never paid much attention to Point 5770 incident beyond trying to understand the geography part of it. Let me dig around and see what I can find.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

This tweet is from a reporter's handle during his exchange with a PA Officer on Twitter who was with 6NLI in Kargil.

PA Officer:
Exactly. Operation Koh Paima. Very true. PAF and PN had no clue. India had no clue also. It was sequel to Shaqma op in 1988.
Indian journalist (Vikram Jit Singh)
India had a clue. Cos 15 corps in jan 99 said we may hav pak bid to capture posts. In jan 99, 5 para reported intrusion on point 5770. Info was not shared with neighboring bdes by 102 bde.
Tweets from a different conversation:
Yes, there were intrusions in south Siachen glacier, ex: pt 5770, also sub sector Hanief. First soldier shot was of 12 Jat under this bde, may 7. Katoch was cdr.
Chorbatla came under operational command of batalik bde, ie 70 inf bde. The point is that intrusions were first detected in south siachen glacier on Jan. 5, 1999, by company of 5 PARA on Pt. 5770. But was hushed by Bde and Div Hqs, and info not shared with neighbouring bdes
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

Wow Rohit you’re unearthing some pretty damming information!

I will say this carefully and with a sense of responsibility, but the big question now for Gen Malik is, where was the intelligence failure?

Is anyone from IAF talking about the air strikes shown in that @adityag retweet?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Y I Patel wrote:Wow Rohit you’re unearthing some pretty damming information!
I will say this carefully and with a sense of responsibility, but the big question now for Gen Malik is, where was the intelligence failure? Is anyone from IAF talking about the air strikes shown in that @adityag retweet?
I will dig out info regarding IAF action later, current focus is on what happened in Point 5770. Give me sometime. I will try and get as much info on this one.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Please read the plan to sell out Siachen during MMS time.
The Gen V.K Singh birthrate fiasco was created for this.

And someone plays post full article.

https://www.defencexp.com/siachen-sell- ... ace-prize/
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

I read this but it was not clear.

Who was lobbying for whom? The article jumps from SGPC lobbying for JJ Singh (& some quid-pro-quo regarding Siachen) straight to VKS! Then there is something about Bikram Singh's classmates approaching Subramaniam Swamy (whether for or against Bikram Singh seems unclear)

Very confusing read!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

It is not clear for reason. Those who know can easily connect the dot, those who cannot, may not be able to. Also there is little matter of someone suing, but more than that, if you shout the loudest, you may meet fate of Bhabha or countless BARC scientists who have met roadside accidents.
I did not know angle of Coupta article, why they wanted to get rid of VKS. This was for siachin. This level of planning and execution needs many people in the deep, who were they?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by vikassh »

rohitvats wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Wow Rohit you’re unearthing some pretty damming information!
I will say this carefully and with a sense of responsibility, but the big question now for Gen Malik is, where was the intelligence failure? Is anyone from IAF talking about the air strikes shown in that @adityag retweet?
I will dig out info regarding IAF action later, current focus is on what happened in Point 5770. Give me sometime. I will try and get as much info on this one.
Just by chance while following an Instagram handle, I reached this page called as rajputana_rifles_official and it shows a pic of the Pt. 5700 on southern glacier

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnGVuTZKno4 ... JhMjlhZTc=

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnGVuTZKno4 ... hmZGIxNmQ=

I think I can see Pakistani MG 3/MG 42 pointing downwards towards the slope.

Thanks
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

vikassh wrote: Just by chance while following an Instagram handle, I reached this page called as rajputana_rifles_official and it shows a pic of the Pt. 5700 on southern glacier

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnGVuTZKno4 ... JhMjlhZTc=

https://www.instagram.com/p/CnGVuTZKno4 ... hmZGIxNmQ=

I think I can see Pakistani MG 3/MG 42 pointing downwards towards the slope.

Thanks
Bloody hell!

I can't thank you enough for these pics. Look at the bloody place where the post was set-up! And given the unobstructed view and field of fire it gives towards the valley which you can see below, you know why it was set-up.

But how do you survive and fight in this space? Incredible. I'm sure the situation would've been similar with respect to Bana Post.

This also tells you the absolute grit, determination and some bit of madness required to attack such a position.

But on a different note - Setting up this post makes no sense except for the sake of doing something. Yes, I know the view part but how critical was it in military terms? Also, since your adversary has set-up this post, you need to retake it and now cannot leave it unattended.

Has anyone wondered why only Pakistanis set-up such precarious posts and not Indians? Have you heard of any Pakistani successful attempt to retake some fancy post of India like this one?

I guess the answer is that since Pakistanis lack presence on the Saltoro Ridge, they try to cash on any opportunity, irrespective of how illogical it might seem. And once they do it, we've to get them off these stupid placements.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ShauryaT »

Enjoyed this interview, thought will share.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

V_Raman
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

This is completely orthogonal - why do people sit so far apart in Indian shows? Wouldnt it be awkward to sit 10-feet apart in an interview!!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Y I Patel wrote:SNIP...
Y I Patel, Rohitvats... you both might be the perfect folks to answer my questions. I've been trying to create an annotated google map of the region (especially the road & rail projects), and I've been looking to fill out more info about the key passes in the Siachen region. Note: All of this is only based on OSINT, so no restricted info.

Could either of you or any the knowledgeable guroos or gaarus here help me confirm if my locations of Chulung La & Pt 5770 are correct? Another key pass is supposed to be Yarma La (6200 m), but it doesn't show up in any of the sources I've looked at (and I've gone down the rabbithole of reading Younghusband & the Workman's diaries), nor is there info on who controls it at the moment.

Thanks in advance!

Any suggestions, additions, or corrections to the maps are always welcome! :-)

Edit: P.S. One of the best maps & descriptions I've found of the region is at https://www.himalaya-info.org/
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Y I Patel »

k prasad wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:SNIP...
Y I Patel, Rohitvats... you both might be the perfect folks to answer my questions. I've been trying to create an annotated google map of the region (especially the road & rail projects), and I've been looking to fill out more info about the key passes in the Siachen region. Note: All of this is only based on OSINT, so no restricted info.

Could either of you or any the knowledgeable guroos or gaarus here help me confirm if my locations of Chulung La & Pt 5770 are correct? Another key pass is supposed to be Yarma La (6200 m), but it doesn't show up in any of the sources I've looked at (and I've gone down the rabbithole of reading Younghusband & the Workman's diaries), nor is there info on who controls it at the moment.

Thanks in advance!

Any suggestions, additions, or corrections to the maps are always welcome! :-)

Edit: P.S. One of the best maps & descriptions I've found of the region is at https://www.himalaya-info.org/
Hi Prasad

Your Chulung La pin appears to be correct but I could not figure out how to read coordinates in your annotated map. Here's where I am placing it, which should tally with your pin: 35° 1'8.96"N, 76°59'34.37"E

Based on that your Pt 5770 appears too far to the west. Descriptions of the action put Navdeep Top (Altitude 5770 meters) on a saddle next to the peak adjacent to and west of Chulung La, so this is close to where it could be : 35° 0'55.24"N, 76°57'32.43"E. Google Earth will take these coordinates and give you a reading of the elevation of that point, which tallies with 5770 meters.

Added later: Gagan, the ultimate authority on these matters, puts 5770 thus:
"Pt 5770: 35° 0'13.63"N, 76°55'59.67"E

Chulung Pakistani Base Camp: 35° 2'53.10"N, 76°56'15.69"E
This camp is nicely visible from up there from 5770"

So he puts it just a wee bit to the west of where I had it, I am not going to argue against him.

Do you have general whereabouts of Yarma La? This is the go-to link for me: https://maps.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/ it requires a general idea of which plate to focus search on. I can help if you give me a bit more of what you have read so far.

Your Himalaya Info link is the best there is, agreed.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Prem Kumar wrote:I read this but it was not clear.

Who was lobbying for whom? The article jumps from SGPC lobbying for JJ Singh (& some quid-pro-quo regarding Siachen) straight to VKS! Then there is something about Bikram Singh's classmates approaching Subramaniam Swamy (whether for or against Bikram Singh seems unclear)

Very confusing read!
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Then why even publish the article with half-hints? Who is the intended audience?
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

Y I Patel wrote:
Hi Prasad

Your Chulung La pin appears to be correct but I could not figure out how to read coordinates in your annotated map. Here's where I am placing it, which should tally with your pin: 35° 1'8.96"N, 76°59'34.37"E

Based on that your Pt 5770 appears too far to the west. Descriptions of the action put Navdeep Top (Altitude 5770 meters) on a saddle next to the peak adjacent to and west of Chulung La, so this is close to where it could be : 35° 0'55.24"N, 76°57'32.43"E. Google Earth will take these coordinates and give you a reading of the elevation of that point, which tallies with 5770 meters.

Added later: Gagan, the ultimate authority on these matters, puts 5770 thus:
"Pt 5770: 35° 0'13.63"N, 76°55'59.67"E

Chulung Pakistani Base Camp: 35° 2'53.10"N, 76°56'15.69"E
This camp is nicely visible from up there from 5770"

So he puts it just a wee bit to the west of where I had it, I am not going to argue against him.

Do you have general whereabouts of Yarma La? This is the go-to link for me: https://maps.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/ it requires a general idea of which plate to focus search on. I can help if you give me a bit more of what you have read so far.

Your Himalaya Info link is the best there is, agreed.
Thanks so much Patel-saar! Looks like my Chulung La & Navdeep Top / pt 5770 pins were accurate then.

Unfortunately, between all the links and info I've seen (including the US Army maps you linked), I haven't seen ANY further info about Yarma La except for the name & the elevation. Unless I find a good OSINT source for it, I won't be adding it to the map, so that there's no restricted info there.

I've been trying to update with the BRO projects in the region, but GoI websites are horrible to navigate, and almost impossible to find any information.
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Meet Capt Shiva Chouhan: 1st woman officer deployed in Siachen.

When Captain Shiva Chouhan became the first woman army officer to be operationally deployed in Siachen -- the world's highest battlefield -- she broke the glass ceiling, and two months into her stint at 15,600 ft, she has also displayed extraordinary physical endurance and mental toughness needed to survive such inhospitable terrains.

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Captain Shiva Chouhan, the first woman Army officer to be operationally deployed in Siachen -- the world's highest battlefield.

Born and raised in Rajasthan's Udaipur, she lost her father in 2008 when she was just 11, and credits the support from her mother and her elder sister, a former National Cadet Corps (NCC) cadet, for her successful journey into the armed forces.

Commissioned in May 2021, she was posted in Siachen on January 2 after undergoing "arduous training", along with her male counterparts.

"At the Siachen Battle School, I underwent training for ice wall climbing, avalanche and crevasse rescue, and later after deployment also, I have received additional training sessions to achieve greater physical and mental toughness," she told PTI in an interview over phone.

"When you are at 15,600 ft, and in a glacial terrain, where temperatures are much below zero, and can dip to even -40 degrees Celsius, it is not just the harsh weather you have to brave, but isolation too which comes at such a height," Captain Chouhan said.

The WhatsApp call dropped several times, and Captain Chouhan of the Fire and Fury Corps, said in a lighter vein, "Well, my post is at over 15,000 ft, so network comes and goes here".

Asked what are some of the biggest challenges at such a high altitude where oxygen level dips, she said, besides the harsh weather, "isolation is something we all have learned to deal with".

"We do Yoga and read books, but more importantly, the army trains you hard before deployment, and the lessons of survival hold you in good stead. But, to survive Siachen, mental toughness is the key, besides physical endurance capacity," she said.

She also thanked the Fire and Fury Corps, Siachen Brigade and Sura-Soi Engineer Regiment for motivating her to soldier on in her journey despite challenges.

"Sura-soi means 'only the bravest shall survive' and it is matter of great pride for me and my family which has supported me in achieving my dream, that I am the first woman to be deployed in Siachen," Captain Chouhan said.

Soon after her deployment , the army's Fire and Fury Corps had tweeted pictures of her on the job.

"'Breaking the Glass Ceiling' Capt Shiva Chauhan of Fire and Fury Sappers became the first woman officer to be operationally deployed in Kumar Post, post completion of arduous training, at the highest battlefield of the world #Siachen," it said.

With her foray into Siachen, she has broken not just the glass ceiling, but the glacial ceiling, so to speak.

"As a leader, it is my job to ensure the safety of myself and those who are under my command. And, though I am the only woman posted here, in the army, a soldier is just a soldier, man or woman is immaterial. We all work together to serve our nation," she said.

At 15,600 ft, she says, she has, "her own tent with attached toilet facility", adding, her body is now acclimatised to the Siachen conditions.

Captain Chouhan, who holds a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from the NJR Institute of Technology, Udaipur, before deployment had led the Sura Soi Cycling Expedition from Siachen War Memorial to the Kargil War Memorial on Kargil Vijay Diwas in July last year, proving her physical endurance in harsh weather conditions and glacial terrains.

Asked, what inspired her to join the army, she said, "My sister, she was an NCC cadet and that way I imbibed the values of discipline and sense of dedication before I made up my mind to go for the army".

Captain Chouhan said in the 21st century there are "adequate opportunities for both men and women, but before setting eyes on a career in the armed forces, young girls and women, must ask themselves if they have it in them, the passion and what it takes to be there, and no because, it looks glamorous".
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by srin »

Regarding Op Meghdhoot
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by eklavya »

https://mobile.twitter.com/IAF_MCC/stat ... 0818122757

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39 years ago today, the @adgpi & the IAF launched Op Meghdoot- what has come to be the highest battlefield in the world. Operations continue there till date - well beyond the limits of man & machine. The following account is as had been recalled by AVM A Dalaya, then AOC (J&K).

Preparations for the op started six weeks before D-Day on 13 Apr 84. The plan entailed landing 30 troops at Bilafond La Pass on the first day & another 30 to Siala Pass the next day. Seven camps were then to be set up along the 80 km Siachen Glacier at the rate of one per day.

The elevations of the two passes was in excess of 18000 ft, thus narrowing down the choice to the Cheetah helicopter which could carry two fully armed jawans, with limited rations & skis. 8 Cheetahs from the 114 HU at Jammu & 131 FAC Flight at Udhampur were thus tasked for the op

The aircrew started training in DBO, away from Siachen, in total secrecy. Snow bowl landings were practiced in snow-bound Dras. Parallely, the IA prepared 8 helipads for Cheetahs & 2 for Mi-8s, at Base Camp (BC), located at an elevation of 11300 ft.

Fuel & Oxygen were flown in to BC by Mi-8, while Leh & Thoise airfields were also geared up for the impending ops. All preparations were completed by D minus 7, with the earmarked 60 troops of 4 Kumaon at BC having been given exposure to helicopter ops.


On D minus 1, Wg Car CS Sandhu, the Cheetah Force Commander (CFC) flew a recce sortie, identifying specific landing areas in Bilafond La & Siala. Everything was now in place, with a palpable excitement running through the participants who were all to script history the next day.

Sunrise on D-Day was 0603 hrs. As planned, 8 Cheetahs got airborne from Thoise at 0600 hrs, reaching BC at 0640 hrs. A quick refueling later, the CFC & his No 2 got airborne with two jawans each, returning to BC an hour later after inserting the troops 50 yds short of Bilafond La


A swift debrief ensued & the remaining 6 Cheetahs got airborne in pairs over intervals of 3 min. While 12 jawans were landed at Blantond La, another was evacuated due to ill-health. The 3rd wave of Cheetahs got airborne from BC at 0945 hrs, bearing tents for the troops.


The 4th & final wave of 5 Cheetahs took off at 1120 hrs, carrying the remaining load & troops. Over the day, 19 sorties had landed 30 troops & 1175 kg load by 1210 hrs, when the weather started clamping down. Siala had to wait till 16 Apr, but that's a story for another day.

History had been made by the intrepid IAF pilots & brave Kumaonis. 39 years later, Siachen remains the Karma Bhoomi for all IAF helicopter pilots, whose credo remains, "We do the difficult as a routine, the impossible (may) take a bit longer".
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Re: Siachen News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Point 5770, Navdeep Top, and Chulung La fall on LOC or the AGPL?
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