The IAF History Thread

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Postby CPrakash » 17 Aug 2006 04:04

Harry wrote:This should've been in the humor thread but still,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b-aXBGZ ... ed&search=


The dude seriously needs to take some english lessons - as well as history lessons. can we start a fund for him?

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Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2006 21:12

Could we have the full text of Nachiketa interview please? Thanks.

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Postby Jagan » 17 Aug 2006 22:03

Kargil hero Nachiketa bounces back

By Indo Asian News Service

Srinagar, Aug 16 (IANS) When Flight Lieutenant K. Nachiketa was shot down during the 1999 Kargil operations and taken prisoner by the Pakistani Army before being dramatically released, many thought his flying days were over due to a spinal injury he sustained while ejecting from his MiG-27 fighter - but he has proved the sceptics wrong.

Today a squadron leader flying AN-32 transport aircraft, Nachiketa has been approved for promotion to wing commander and could rise even higher, his peers in the Indian Air Force (IAF) say.

'I would even say that depending on the circumstances, he could even make (IAF) chief,' Air Marshal A.K. Singh, air officer commanding-in-chief Western Air Command, maintained, not exactly in jest.

Nachiketa, however, wouldn't speculate on this, only saying: 'The IAF is my home; I will definitely stay in the air force.'

Nachiketa is one the very few IAF pilots to have returned after their aircraft crashed in enemy territory. He was shot down May 28, 1999, and held in captivity before being released a week later on June 4. He was later diagnosed with a back problem - a compression fracture - meaning he could never fly fighters again. However, after a series of remedial measures and retraining, he has been flying AN-24s since 2004 and is currently posted with the Chandigarh-based 48 Squadron.

Did he miss flying fighters?

'Definitely. But, then, even this flying is very good. In fact, all flying is very good and very challenging - be it fighters, helicopters or transports,' Nachiketa told IANS.

'I think I've reconciled (myself to not flying fighters) because, from a broader perspective, I think life has got much more than fighters,' he added.

Detailing the dramatic events of the day he crashed, he said: 'I had a technical problem with the engine; my engine shut and I had to re-ignite. But you have to be flying at a certain height before you can do so. In my case, since I was flying over a terrain of five plus km, I did not have the adequate height. As a result, I had to eject.

'About two to three hours after I ejected, I was ambushed and there was a fire fight. Regular Pakistani Army troops fired at me, I fired back. Eventually, I was captured because I was outnumbered. I had one pistol vis-à-vis five-six AK-56s,' Nachiketa stated.

'After about a two-hour halt at a place in the Batalik sector, I was taken by a helicopter to Skardu. After a night halt, I was shifted to Rawalpindi. I stayed there for four days. Thereafter a decision to release me was taken and I came back via the Wagah border,' he said.

Looking back at the incident, was it wise to have flown an aircraft like the MiG-27 in the mountainous Kargil terrain?

'I think that is for the tactics and policy makers to decide. We just do whatever is best for us,' Nachiketa replied, adding 'With the available intelligence at that time, we thought it was a good decision.'

Asked how his captors treated him, he said: 'They took it in two phases. First they declared me uncooperative. Then it became quite bad. I don't want to go into specifics.'

What did his captors question him about? 'They asked me about our forces, their deployment, the kind of avionics and ammunition which we have.'

He replied in the negative when asked if he expected to come back after he was captured?

'Absolutely not. As per our background, from 1971 what we have seen, no one generally comes back.'

Did he debate issues of life and death after being captured?

'The only thing I was planning from my side was escape. But that takes time. Initially, there is high security, then slowly there is dilution. Being released by Pakistan was a surprise.'

Asked if the IAF trained its personnel about what to do if one is captured, he replied: 'In all our training, starting from the cadet days, the entire focus is on survival. In the air force, we have a special survival course for aircrew so that we are better prepared to handle such eventualities.'

Copyright Indo-Asian News Service

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Postby ramana » 17 Aug 2006 22:24

Jagan, Thanks.

I guess the TSP knew India knew he was captured alive. Hence they had to return him or else it would have been as feared.

the questions were quite DDM. Trying to get him to diss the Mig 27s and implied chain of command!

Hope he has a long career in IAF.

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Postby SRay » 17 Aug 2006 22:35

He was shot down May 28, 1999, and held in captivity...

Detailing the dramatic events of the day he crashed, he said: 'I had a technical problem with the engine; my engine shut and I had to re-ignite. But you have to be flying at a certain height before you can do so. In my case, since I was flying over a terrain of five plus km, I did not have the adequate height. As a result, I had to eject.


Ok -- if this was an engine failure, why is it reported that he was shot down? Even this article's author doesn't seem to understand the difference.

George J

Postby George J » 17 Aug 2006 22:49

Only al-keedas claim that he was shot down. The above author has used "shot" and "crashed" in the same article so I wouldnt put too much faith on him.

It was definately an engine flame out. The question you should be asking is WHY did the engine flame out. :twisted:

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Postby Jagan » 17 Aug 2006 22:52

ramana wrote:
I guess the TSP knew India knew he was captured alive. Hence they had to return him or else it would have been as feared.


It all depends on the situation when the pilot hits the ground, are the troops who are capturing him from a paramilitary force? a militia? are they being commanded by a NCO, JCO, or a regular officer? An officerless squad is more likely to 'get rid off' a Prisoner. a squad led by an officer is more likely to keep him alive as the leader is supposed to be level headed and a captured live pilot would definitely help bag some glory for his team and himself.

I do agree that Nachiketa was probably very close to getting bumped off - the pak soldiers trying to capture him would not have appreciated being fired upon , I sort of suspect Nachiketa too realises how close he was...

Once the transfer of the POW moves from the frontlines to the rear - I think he was relatively safe and need not have worried.

Perhaps Nachiketas interview also reveals what might have happened to Ajay Ahuja - maybe Ahuja too shot back with his weapon (atleast that is what is claimed by the PAFCombat site), maybe he was killed in a fire fight. Its not difficult to imagine that happening. I remember reading the reports that the Indian govt said Ahuja was shot in the head at close range - but how close - was it a pistol to the head kind of a shot, or more like a shot from a rifle in the heat of a gun battle which hit him ? I dont think we will know unless the official records open up.
Last edited by Jagan on 17 Aug 2006 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jagan » 17 Aug 2006 22:54

George J wrote:Only al-keedas claim that he was shot down. The above author has used "shot" and "crashed" in the same article so I wouldnt put too much faith on him.

It was definately an engine flame out. The question you should be asking is WHY did the engine flame out. :twisted:


A reliable PAF source does mention it was due to ingestion of gun gasses :) :) we should thank him...

DDM-ities in the report.

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Postby Jagan » 18 Aug 2006 05:58

Going back and looking at the old report - the first mention of Nachiketa being in a firefight comes from a Pakistani Source according to the Tribune

http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99may30/head3.htm#2

IAF pilot resisted arrest: report

ISLAMABAD, May 29 (AFP) — IAF pilot Flt Lieut K. Nachiketa, captured by the Pakistani army, resisted arrest by shooting but surrendered after finding himself out-numbered and helpless, a newspaper reported today.

Flt Lieut Nachiketa, in his mid-20s, was taken prisoner on Thursday when his fighter jet was knocked down by a missile in Kashmir.

The pilot of another downed jet, Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, died and his body was handed over by Pakistani forces to the Indian Army in Kargil late yesterday.

Flt Lieut Nachiketa, armed with a Russian handgun, fired many rounds at Pakistani troops, but when he saw that he was outnumbered and in a helpless situation he surrendered, The Nation daily said.The wreckage of Flt Lieut Nachiketa’s plane was found 10 km inside Pakistan, it said, adding that the other jet crashed a few km away from the site.

The aircraft hit a mountainside and broke into pieces. Twisted metal, charred remains of the fuel tank and other pieces, including a tail wing with painted Indian flag and the number C-1539, lay scattered over a large area, the report said.

It said the pilot had taken off from Srinagar in his MiG-27 and after being hit inside Pakistani territory by ground fire, he ejected to safety.

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Postby Samir » 18 Aug 2006 07:12

According to one version of the shootout story that I heard (allegedly narrated by Nachiketa to a fellow pilot), he was blazing away, ran out of rounds, slumped down out of sight, and then felt a rifle jammed into his head from behind - he had been approached from the rear while the gun battle was going on.

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Postby ASPuar » 19 Aug 2006 00:01

CPrakash wrote:
Harry wrote:This should've been in the humor thread but still,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b-aXBGZ ... ed&search=


The dude seriously needs to take some english lessons - as well as history lessons. can we start a fund for him?


heheheh apparently the Indian air force operates something called the 'canberrab'

But what we really lacked, was apparently brave "mens" (sic)

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Postby Harry » 19 Aug 2006 05:09

Does anyone know whats happening at 2:00 in that clip? A hunter is flying and something is exploding underneath it..?

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Postby Jagan » 23 Aug 2006 02:25

Kargil hero lives to tell his tale
Vishal Thapar

Posted Monday , August 21, 2006 at 10:15
Updated Monday , August 21, 2006 at 10:43
Image
WAR SCAR: Pakistan's treatment of prisoners of war is uncivilized and plain inhuman, says Nachiketa.

Srinagar: Flight Lieutenant K Nachiketa shot into limelight after the MiG-27 aircraft he was flying crashed across the Line of control during the 1999 Kargil conflict.

Nachiketa, now a squadron leader in the Indian Air Force, talks about his brutal treatment as a prisoner of war in Pakistani hands.

When Flight Lieutenant K Nachiketa took off from the Adampur airbase in Punjab on what was reportedly a photo reconnaissance mission over the Batalik sector during the Kargil conflict, he had no idea what he would land himself into.

The MiG-27 fighter he was flying crashed across the Line of Control into PoK after reported engine failure, but Nachiketa was able to eject from the ill-fated plane. The incident changed the course of his life.

Telling about the treatment he received in captivity, Sqn Leader K Nachiketa said "The last three-and-a-half days were quite bad. As mothers and sisters are watching this programme, I don't want to specify maltreatment. I was counting my days - death or jail - only thing I was planning was escape."

Nachiketa considers himself plain lucky to have survived the ordeal, especially considering the manner in which his colleague Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja was executed by Pakistani captors.

Pakistan's treatment of prisoners of war, Nachiketa suggests, is uncivilized, and plain inhuman.

"It's not done in a war. War is a dirty game but you don't do these things when you're fighting a conventional war," says Nachiketa.

Nachiketa cannot fly fighter aircraft anymore because of spinal injuries sustained while ejecting over Batalik. He now flies transport aircraft. He clearly misses the thrill of fighter flying but has reconciled to his fate.

"I think I have reconciled, because from broader perspective, life has much more than fighters," says Nachiketa.
------------------------------------------------------------------

There is also a video of the interview at http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/19161/kar ... -tale.html

I havent listened to it but it appears ironic that a story that essentiallly starts off on a MiG-27 pilots incident would have Jaguars, Hunters, Su30MKIs but no MiG-27 :)

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Postby Surya » 23 Aug 2006 02:42

SAdly what someof us had known

Nachi was beaten up by the Pak Army guys.


I remember Shamyl the Camel being gleeful about it.

Our time will come and we will pay you back with interest for your barbarism.

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Postby Harry » 23 Aug 2006 04:31

PoW treatment wasnt always bad by the Pakis but sometimes it could be "Pulp Fiction" inhuman. Read the book "An Indian Spy in Pakistan". It seems they tortured their own people who matched random names given out during interrogation, regarding their nuclear programme.

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Postby Jagan » 23 Aug 2006 06:03

Did a couple of searches on the IBN site - following interesting links have come up. Did anyone catch this show? shows chivalry is not dead in the IAF
----------------------------------------------

http://www.ibnlive.com/printpage.php?id ... tion_id=3#

Indo-Pak war: The forgotten heroes


CNN-IBN

JUST FOR SHOW: Both India and Pakistan have forgotten their soldiers who went missing in action.

New Delhi: Missing in Action is a tribute to war heroes from both sides of a border. A border that binds as much as it divides. It is a tribute as well to families that have lost their dearest ones and at times, not even had the chance to say a final goodbye. Even as diplomatic relations between India and Pakistan go through a see-saw of frostiness and thaw, families have tried to find out whether the warrior who never returned is still alive or dead.

A PAF pilot's tale

On September 7, 1965 - day one of the Indo-Pak war - Squadron Leader Alam Siddiqui of the Pakistan Air Force said goodbye to his 21-year-old bride and took off from Karachi. He flew into the enemy territory in his B-57 bomber, never to return again.

"The day he died, he came home to tell us the war had started. He asked my mom to look after us. I was happy he was doing some service to the country. It was the last time that I saw him. I saw his plane take off, says Squadron Leader Alam Siddiqui's widow, Shenaz.

Shenaz remembers her husband as someone whose intensity of love was very strong. "I was too young to respond. I wish he was alive so that I could respond to it," she says.

After his death life for this 21-year-old came to a complete standstill. The only source of strength came from friends and family. Alam's best friend, Najeeb Khan, who was also from the same squadron, says, "It never comes to into our mind that we're seeing someone for the last time. There is an internal optimism about life as an Airforce pilot. When I came back from my mission, my OC told me that Alam hadn't returned."

He believes that an anti-aircraft gun must have hit Alam's plane.

"After 5 months, when some prisoners were exchanged, they sent his wallet back with my photo in it. I knew he had crashed in Jamnagar, but I thought they would send his body back if he was dead. Since they did not, I though he was still alive," remembers Shenaz.

For the next 40 years, Shenaz kept alive with the hope that Alam would return. One day, five years had passed, her mother suggested that she remarry.

"I got remarried but told my second husband that I was still in love with Alam. My husband was a good man. He said if Alam returns, he would be the first one to hand me over to him. Even in my second husband's home, there were photos of Alam," she says.

Najeeb's wife Surriya says, "Many war widows remarried, but they never forget their first husbands. After all, first love always remains."

Love knows no boundaries and understands no reason. Does it? Otherwise why would a Pakistani woman, sitting in Toronto watching an Indian film, think that Squadron Leader Veer Pratap Singh in reel life could perhaps be Squadron Leader Siddiqui Alam in real life.

Shenaz confesses that when she saw Veer Zaara in Toronto, she was very depressed.

"Shani kept saying - Najeeb bhai, do you think Alam is alive in the Indian jails somewhere. I knew it couldn't be true. But just to put a final chapter to the to the whole sad event, I wrote to Yash Chopra, the air chief and Shahrukh Khan," says Najeeb.

"I wrote a mail that Alam had been killed in 65, but his wife hadn't reconciled. It's my duty and wish to bring a closure. I wanted to know if Alam had been killed, if there was a grave and if they could help us with visas," he says.

And Najeeb's request was well-accepted. "The way he wrote the mail that he had crossed the sound barrier but he was not sure if he could cross the barrier of the heart. He said that he wanted to do this for his friend's wife. It struck an emotional chord in me," says the air chief.

"I did research based on his request. This had come from one collegue to another, so it was special. I am an air warrior, I've taken part in these wars. I could understand these sentiments," he added.

Old records were opened, history was delved into and villagers questioned. "It took us a while. Whatever info we got, we wrote to Najeeb bhai, says the air chief.

The investigation carried out by the Indian Airforce confirmed what Shenaz had never wanted to believe for for decades - Squardon Leader Alam Siddiqui's B-57 bomber, stacked with explosives, had crashed in a field near Jamnagar in Gujarat.

Nothing remained of either the plane or the pilot. There was no grave, no epitaph for this Pakistani pilot who died on the first day of the 65 war.

Just a field that became a shrine of the fighter pilot she had loved and lost miles away from her hometown, in a small village in Jamnagar in Gujarat.

There was no doubt in Shehnaaz's mind that this was one pilgrimage she had to make. Even if it meant that this journey would dash the very hopes that Shehnaaz had clung on to all these years. And here's where the story begins.

"All the way in my flight from Toronto to India, I kept thinking that maybe the investigation has gone wrong somewhere. Alam is still alive," says Shenaz.

"I have always wanted to come to Jamnagar in my alternate reality. I have often thought that I would be here one day and I would find him here," she adds.

And when she reached Jamnagar, she did find him here, though not in the way she had hoped to. In her conversation with the investigation officer, Shehnaaz asked him of how the crash took place and if any of the villagers were hurt.

"No, ma'am. Nothing like that happened. The village was evacuated. It wasn't his mistake," he asnwered.

At the site where a Pakistani Airforce plane crashed with the pilot on board, an Indian Airforce officer comforts the widow of the supposed enemy. This is where borders cease to exist. Sometimes it doesnt matter which flag you wear on your chest as long as you have a soldiers heart beating inside you.

"Alam was born in India, but he couldn't visit India often. He often told me that he would bring me to the Taj Mahal since it symbolised eternal love. He said he would share the same sentiment of love with me there," says Shenaz.

Alam's friend, Najeeb confesses, "The sadness hasn't gone away. But we know that we did whatever we could in this context."

Overwhelmed by the help provided by the Air Chief, Najeeb saluted to the Air Chief. "I had not saluted any one in a long time, but with my full heart, I salute you with honour and dignity," he said to the Air Chief.

As she visited the Amar Jawan Jyoti at New Delhi, she paid homage not just Indian soldiers, but to their families as well, who shared the same pain with her even though the borders separated them.

"We are the same people, the same region, sharing the same culture. This war, it's so useless. It's the common people like us who lose. I hope there's never any war between the two countries. I hope nobody else suffers like me," Shenaz appeals.

Waiting for their son

Families of Prisoners of War belonging to India and Pakistan not only believe in the adage, "We do the impossible immediately. It's only the miracles that take longer."

They have lived with it for nearly 35 years and have set aside everything including family life, professional life, their likes, dislikes to pursue just one mission.

And today they are tired and a bit cynical about the country, the armed forces, the governments, the leaders. Will any of their family members ever go into the defence forces again?

Major Ashok Suri and Major AK Ghosh were memebers of the Indian army that fought the 1971 war with Pakistan.

Major Suri's family even received a letter from him after he was taken as a PoW.

"Dear Daddy,
Ashoka touches thy feet to get thy benedictions. I am quite okay here. Please try to contact to the Indian army or the government of India about us. We are 20 officers here. Don't worry about me. Pay my regards to every body at home. Especially to mummy and grandfather. Indian government can contact Pakistan government for our freedom.
Your loving son,
AK Suri"

The letter arrived at the Suri's home in 1975 sent by someone in Delhi.After the handwriting experts verified the letter it was clear that Major Suri had been taken as a prisoner of war in 1971. He was 23 then and with evidence like the letter it is tough to expect the family to believethat their son was killed in action.

"Paise de kar muh band kara do. Gratutity de do pension de do. When these people came to our house ki Gratutiy le lo pension le lo (They only want to keep out mouth shut by giving out pension and gratuity). My father told them to keep the Pension. My son will come back and settle everything with you," Major Suri's brother Bharat Suri says.

There is disdain, pain and anger at governments that have come and gone. In the past 35 years Bharat Suri has met four prime ministers, petitioned many union ministers, written dozens of letters to joint secretaries and penned appeals to the human rights commission.

All in the hope that it might set in motion a diplomatic process that will eventually lead to the release and return of his brother along with the others.

"Aap mujhe bataiye koi desh bhakt paida hoga is desh main. Sirf terrorist paida ho rahein hain. Kisi ko khayal hi nahi hain hamara. Bus chal rahi train chal rahi hain cultural exchange ho raha hain. Lekin jinlogon ne desh ki seva ki unko koi lena nahi chahta (Tell me how can a patriot be born in this country. Only terrorists will be born. No one cares about us. Bus and train is going to Pakistan. There is cultural exchange too. But no one remembers those who have served the country)," Suri says.

At a small Yoga centre in the Capital, Bharat Suri treats patients suffering from stress and various psychomatic disorders. But his medicine has not been able to heal his deep pain. In fact Bharat and Major AK Suri's father died fighting the pain of having lost his young son lost to the war. Sorry lost not killed, we stand are corrected.

A trip to Pakistan in vain
What do you say to a brother who has spent years just waiting for his dear one. Does he really believe that his brother will walk in one day. Hasn't he lost hope. Is this a lost battle?

It is said that faith can move mountains. We hope it is true.Major AK Ghosh was the youngest brother amongst five brothers. He joined the Indian Military Academy in Dehradoonand joined the 15th Rajput Regiment.

But now the medals and the photographs are just a reminder of the huge loss his family has suffered. His brother says that there was no choice. His kid brother had always seen their father and three elder brothers in uniform and tt was only natural that he dons the fatigues.

"My brother was hardly then 25. They gave a telegram that Major AK Ghosh is missing and presumed to be killed in action," he says.

Killed in action or missing in action, what difference these words can make for a family that is mourning the loss of its youngest son.

"One day in the library I was going through the Time magazine, I found exactly my brother's photograph in it. They gave telegram that major AK Ghosh missing presumed to be killed in action. I met several experts in the academy itself. Everybody was saying it's the same one," he adds.

The discovery of his brother's photograph was the beginning of a struggle that hasn't quite ended.

I along with my brother, with the father-in-law of my brother went to Major General Bhatacharjee. I said sir it is only presumed that he was killed in action. So how could you predict that he is dead?"

The Major General said that it is impossible because the army general gives the news only after confirming thoroughly. The Time magazine wasn't proof enough everyone told him. A delegation went to pakistan at the invitation of the then president Zia-ul-Haq. They were not able to find any of the officers they had come looking for but they got a tip off from one of the jail residents. He told them that they had come to the wrong jail.

"Beyond our wall you see that double storey building there you will meet your own people. They speak English amongst themselves and play volleyball," he said.

But they were not allowed to go across the wall. After coming that close to what may well have been their destination, they were forced to come back to India.

"Yes, we met everybody and everybody promised that we shall see what could be done. We even met prime minister Narasimha Rao and he tried his best to follow the case but there was no use," Ghosh said.

But it is a soldiers family and they believe in never say die. Their anger, their pain, their cynicism is understandable as time is running out. If news, any news about these Prisoners of War has to come then it has to come soon and that, too, within the lifetime of this generation. The next generation would be far disconnected.

A wife hopes against hope

Damayanti Tambay was married for 18 months when her husband Flight Lieutenant Vijay Vasant Tambay was first declared killed in action in the 1971 war. But later, she heard on Radio Pakistan that his plane had been shot down and he taken prisoner of war. Thirty-three years later, she’s still waiting for him to come back home.

Damayanti has appealed for help from everyone who matters. She met four Prime Ministers, petitioned to senior officials from both sides of the border and appealed to the Human Rights Commission, but the hope of return of her husband is still a far cry.

A mother waits for her son

If there are those who wait in hope, there are some who have made an uneasy peace with what they know or more aptly, do not know. They have tried to move on like Sushila Tyagi whose son Sudhir Tyagi was a fighter pilot and post the 1971 war when his plane crashed, he has been declared a missing.

Sushila has knocked on many a door but it has been futile and what is keeping her company is not anticipation but the pride she has in a son she has lost.

"I have now been waiting for 35 years. We've waited and waited. I have hoped to see him come back home. But now I've almost given up. It doesn't even hurt any more. I don't even get emotional when I think about him or talk about him," Sushila Tyagi says.

"He last came home in November 1970 and told me, a war may start. He said, if you don't get any letters from me please know that I have been sent to Pakistan to fight for the country," Sushila adds.

Her 24-year-old son, Sudhir Tyagi, a fighter pilot of the Indian Air Force was sent to Pakistan on the first day of the 1971 war. News of his aircraft crashing in Rawalpindi, the following day on December 4 was relayed to his family.Since then there has just been silence. His name has been added to the missing in action list.

In her sprawling apartment in South Delhi an eerie silence echoes.It is difficult to find more than one photograph of her soldier son. "He always wanted to be in the Air Force. As a child, he would look up and say. I want to fly those planes," Sushila says. She lost her second son, a businessman, and her husband within years of each other, as well. While their photographs line the rooms, the missing photographs of Sudhir tell the story of a grieving mother trying hard to blot out the memory of her son because she realises there isn't any hope to cling on to.

"President Musharaf said there are no POWs in Pakistani jails, the Indian government is not interested in taking the matter forward. Some wives of POWs went there and they were taken to jails to show that there are no POWs left. But there are so many jails, so many cities. Who knows where they are. They may look different now. Who will recognize them?," she asks.

Petitions to look for her missing son lie in the offices of every prime minister who has served since 1971 but their earnest promises lie unfulfilled.Once in a while, there was a glimmer of hope but that, too, faded quickly. "A prisoner of war who returned in 1972 said Sudhir was there and he would be released next but nothing happened. Whenever someone comes to power, they come to my house and say they will do some thing but obviously, those are just empty words," Sushila adds.

All that remains to remind her and this city, of a heroic son who went missing in the line of duty, is a street named after him in a corner of the city. But what shines through the eyes of this grieving mother is the unmistakable pride of being Officer Sudhir Tyagi's mother.

"My biggest pride today is that my son, if dead, died for the country. Money and fame are all very temporary things but this pride is some thing that is more important than any thing else," Sushila says. Spoken without a hint of emotion but after the cameras stopped rolling, her voice cracked.

After 35 years of trying to numb her pain, a mother grieved in dignity, for a son she will never get to see.

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Postby JCage » 23 Aug 2006 07:41

Jagan wrote:
There is also a video of the interview at http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/19161/kar ... -tale.html

I havent listened to it but it appears ironic that a story that essentiallly starts off on a MiG-27 pilots incident would have Jaguars, Hunters, Su30MKIs but no MiG-27 :)


An-32 has a MFD, wonder whats it for?
GPS/ Nav? or RWR?

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Postby Harry » 24 Aug 2006 03:13

JCage wrote:
Jagan wrote:
There is also a video of the interview at http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/19161/kar ... -tale.html

I havent listened to it but it appears ironic that a story that essentiallly starts off on a MiG-27 pilots incident would have Jaguars, Hunters, Su30MKIs but no MiG-27 :)


An-32 has a MFD, wonder whats it for?
GPS/ Nav? or RWR?


All transport a/c have that for the Weather Radar. But they're also supposed to have GPS and Tarang these days.

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Postby Harry » 25 Aug 2006 23:28

The PAF had 26 B-57B, 1 B-57C and 2 RB-57F (converted RB-57D) in 1965 and only 18 B-57B in 1971 (not sure if it includes the single RB-57F), yet admits to only 4 B-57 losses in 65. Aircraft seem to disappear rather quickly in the PAF, as with the F-86Fs. :twisted:

Were there any recorded accidents between the two wars?

Added later : Jagan/Samir's book puts the B-57 fleet strength in 1965, at 32. :eek:

Any specific Paki sources which say 32?

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Postby Jagan » 26 Aug 2006 18:35

Actually that was from an Indian source - some intel type article quoted in Mankekars book (i know not a very reliable source - but communictes an 'atmosphere' of those times.

I know of two crashes of B57 in the interwar years. there could have been more.

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Postby Sree » 27 Aug 2006 10:22

Harry wrote:After nearly smashing my computer in frustration in trying to get this right, here it is. Turn the volume up loud. If this don't get the average BRite interested in history, nothing will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUSvPy1SWAo

Your impressions welcome.

...


Harry, I finally got around to watching - thanks a million for compiling and posting - whatever the frustrations you may have encountered!

One impression I would offer - for those who can get over the adrenalin rush of watching guns and rockets firing (and the guncam footage!), some of the best flying visible on your compilation is actually those two brief glimpses, just past the 3-minute point, of Dakotas and Caribous doing supply-dropping, from what seems like breath-takingly low altitudes, and in the Caribou's case pulling what looks like some serious gs in the process!

Take care, and regards,

Sree

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Postby Harry » 28 Aug 2006 04:42

Thanks Sree.

Another general question - It is noted that a few of the 90 F-86E purchased from the Luftwaffe, became "decoys" in 1971. Why was this? Due to lack of spares? Lack of pilots?

It is another strange Paki claim. If these aircraft were'nt stripped bare, they could have been flown. That would very much make them a part of the PAF fleet but the PAF would never accept the destruction of such aircraft as losses (not even as an economic loss). :-? :roll:

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Postby JCage » 29 Aug 2006 16:20

http://indiannavy.nic.in/t2t2e/Trans2Tr ... count1.htm

ASSESSMENT OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE PERFORMANCE


In his book, Pakistan's "Crisis in Leadership", Maj Gen Fazal Muqueem Khan analysed the Pakistan Air Force's performance during the 1971 war. His conclusions were:


(a) The PAF plan was based on the war lasting six months.

(b) The PAF C-in-C's main idea was to conserve the Air Force. The PAF chose to be on the defensive,both tactically and strategically. It was committed to defending its air bases only and waiting for the enemy to come and attack them. This kept the aircraft perpetually busy in air patrols over the defended air bases.

(c) The PAF defensive strategy relied too heavily on the expectation that the IAF would carry out mass raids on the PAF air bases and would thus suffer heavily. Confining the PAF to selected airfields away from the border decreased the effective strike range of PAF aircraft and increased the reaction time.

(d) The C-in-C PAF over-centralised his command and allowed little flexibility to his subordinates. Hardly any action could be taken without clearance from the C-in-C.

(e) The PAF deployment in airfields a long distance away from the scene of action affected the ability of the PAF to intervene effectively in the naval battles in the South.

(f) In East Pakistan, there was only one squadron of 16 Sabres. Two of these were lost over Boyra on 22 November. Three were lost on 4 December in the air battles over Dacca. Eleven were immobilised by the PAF itself on the ground in Dacca, to prevent their falling into enemy hands.

(g) The Indian victory was due as much to their careful and patient planning as it was to the lack of all this in Pakistan.

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Postby Lalmohan » 29 Aug 2006 17:21

2 sabres were lost over Boyra? I thought it was 3?!

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Postby Jagan » 29 Aug 2006 18:56

Lalmohan wrote:2 sabres were lost over Boyra? I thought it was 3?!


The third sabre did manage to fly back damaged.

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Postby Jagan » 29 Aug 2006 21:11

This one is for Mandeep.

His Article on UNSOM on ORbat says the 111 HU was equipped with Mi-24s. That is not the case


Though they were ATGM helicopters they were Chetaks. I have a picture of one of them somewhere - and another in which a US Officer is checking out the sighting system of the Chetak.

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Postby Kakkaji » 30 Aug 2006 00:38

Jagan wrote:Did a couple of searches on the IBN site - following interesting links have come up. Did anyone catch this show? shows chivalry is not dead in the IAF
----------------------------------------------

http://www.ibnlive.com/printpage.php?id ... tion_id=3#

Indo-Pak war: The forgotten heroes


CNN-IBN

JUST FOR SHOW: Both India and Pakistan have forgotten their soldiers who went missing in action.
Families of Prisoners of War belonging to India and Pakistan not only believe in the adage, "We do the impossible immediately. It's only the miracles that take longer."

They have lived with it for nearly 35 years and have set aside everything including family life, professional life, their likes, dislikes to pursue just one mission.

And today they are tired and a bit cynical about the country, the armed forces, the governments, the leaders. Will any of their family members ever go into the defence forces again?


Despite the equal-equal tone of the headline, it is clear that the IAF and GOI did everything to help and bring closure to the family of the downed Pakistani Pilot. The Pakistani Govt. OTOH showed through its attitude and actions that it had something to hide about the Indians supposedly still in Pakistan as POWs. And the GOI doesn't seem to care either for its missing soldiers and airmen. So the Indian POWs and their families got shafted at both ends. :x

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Postby CPrakash » 30 Aug 2006 00:47

RajeevT wrote:

Despite the equal-equal tone of the headline, it is clear that the IAF and GOI did everything to help and bring closure to the family of the downed Pakistani Pilot. The Pakistani Govt. OTOH showed through its attitude and actions that it had something to hide about the Indians supposedly still in Pakistan as POWs. And the GOI doesn't seem to care either for its missing soldiers and airmen. So the Indian POWs and their families got shafted at both ends. :x


Well someone has to say this sooner or later. Not all the POW families have a strong case.

Many POW families would like to believe their dear ones are alive rather than accept that they are killed in action. If you go thru all the 56 cases one by one, you will probably find less than 10% which are worth following up. the remaining are wishful thinking . Many of the cases are actually "MIAs" not really the equivalent of known POWs. Some names in the list are plain wrong. (Someone can post the names here and go thru it one by one).

This is the reason that the government of India (And the Indian Air Force) does not support the line of thinking. Dont blame the GOI for everything.

the other notable thing about the POW list is that it is 80-90% consisting of officers and not jawans. I think families of other ranks reconcile to their losses much sooner.

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Postby Jagan » 30 Aug 2006 01:02

Here are the names from Tribune.

Their names are: Major J.S. Malik, Maj S.P.S. Warraich, Maj Kanwaljeet Singh, Capt K.S. Rathore, Capt G.R. Singh, Capt O.P. Dalal, Capt Kamal Bakshi, 2nd Lt Sabarwal, 2nd Lt P.R. Sharma, Maj S.C. Guleri, Maj A.K. Ghosh, Maj A.K. Suri, Capt Ravinder Kaura, 2nd Lt V.K. Aazad (but in jail), Capt Vashis Nath, Subedar Kali Dass, Sub Aasa Singh, Sepoy (Sep ) S. Chauhan, Corporal (Cpl) Paal Singh, Sep Daler Singh, Sep Jagir Singh, Havildar (Hav) Krishna Lal, Sqn Ldr Mohinder Kumar Jain, Flt Lt S.K. Goswami, Flt Lt Harvinder Singh, Flg Offr Sudhir Tayagi, Flt Lt V.B. Tambey, Flt Lt Moses Sasun, Flt Lt R.M. Adwami, Flt Lt N.S. Shankar, Flt Lt S.C. Sandal, Flt Lt S.C. Nanda, Wing Comdr (Wg Cdr) H.S. Gill, Flt Lt T.S. Dadal, Sqn Ldr J. Manekshaw Mistri, Flt Lt R.G.R. Kadam, Flg Offr K.L. Malkhani, Flt Lt B. Guha, Sqn Ldr J.D. Kumar, Flt Lt G.S. Rai, Flt Lt A.B. Dhavte, Flt Lt S.K.C.K. Mahajan, Flg Offr K.P. Murlidharan, Sep J.Lal, Gunner (Gnr) M. Mohan, Gnr Sujan Singh, Lance Naik (L/Nk) Hazura Singh, Lt Cdr Ashok Ray, Pilot Offr T.S. Sethi, Sqn Ldr D.P. Chatterjee, Gnr Syam Singh, L/Nk Balbir Singh, and Gnr Gyan Chand.

Major Jaskaran Singh was taken prisoner in front of us, on December 8, 1971. All his family members have died one by one, in his wait.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031123/cth1.htm

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Postby arun » 08 Sep 2006 18:31

A Bangladeshi take on 1971 which seeks to be an " objective acknowledgement made in a Bangladeshi newspaper of the enormous contribution and personal sacrifices made by the Indian Air Force in our Liberation War - a tribute long overdue." 8) :

Air aspect of the Liberation War 1971

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Postby Harry » 12 Sep 2006 23:02


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Postby Paul » 12 Sep 2006 23:22

JCage wrote:ASSESSMENT OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE PERFORMANCE


In his book, Pakistan's "Crisis in Leadership", Maj Gen Fazal Muqueem Khan analysed the Pakistan Air Force's performance during the 1971 war. His conclusions were:


(a) The PAF plan was based on the war lasting six months.

(b) The PAF C-in-C's main idea was to conserve the Air Force. The PAF chose to be on the defensive,both tactically and strategically. It was committed to defending its air bases only and waiting for the enemy to come and attack them. This kept the aircraft perpetually busy in air patrols over the defended air bases.

(c) The PAF defensive strategy relied too heavily on the expectation that the IAF would carry out mass raids on the PAF air bases and would thus suffer heavily. Confining the PAF to selected airfields away from the border decreased the effective strike range of PAF aircraft and increased the reaction time.

(d) The C-in-C PAF over-centralised his command and allowed little flexibility to his subordinates. Hardly any action could be taken without clearance from the C-in-C.

(e) The PAF deployment in airfields a long distance away from the scene of action affected the ability of the PAF to intervene effectively in the naval battles in the South.

(f) In East Pakistan, there was only one squadron of 16 Sabres. Two of these were lost over Boyra on 22 November. Three were lost on 4 December in the air battles over Dacca. Eleven were immobilised by the PAF itself on the ground in Dacca, to prevent their falling into enemy hands.

(g) The Indian victory was due as much to their careful and patient planning as it was to the lack of all this in Pakistan.


Coordination was also a major problem. PAF HQ was in Peshawar wheras army HQ was Rawalpindi. Since 1971, PAF HQ has been shifted to Rawalpindi.

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Postby Jagan » 13 Sep 2006 20:39


(a) The PAF plan was based on the war lasting six months.


The lesson we unlearned in 1965 seems to have been picked up by the PAF !!

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Postby Mihir » 14 Sep 2006 22:34

Jagan, did you get my e-mail?

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Postby Jagan » 15 Sep 2006 00:44

Mihir wrote:Jagan, did you get my e-mail?


Mihir, no - resend to jaganpvs at gmail.com

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Postby Harry » 30 Sep 2006 00:00


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Postby CPrakash » 30 Sep 2006 00:38



Whats the actual url? this one is not opening for me

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Postby JCage » 30 Sep 2006 01:01



I always knew the Packees were braggarts, but this is waaay beyond abnormal. No serious commentator can have any sort of respect for these Colonel Blimp types. :lol:

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Postby JCage » 30 Sep 2006 02:35

BTW, I hope Harry d/l s the clip...its an awesome testament to PAF propoganda in '65...8-10 MiGs on Ground attack, lol!

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Postby Kakkaji » 30 Sep 2006 02:43



I gathered from the clip that the first name is John, and he is a Britisher (Reference to IAF Hunters being from 'your country'.)


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