The IAF History Thread

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Postby JCage » 30 Sep 2006 02:51

Haha Fricker it must be!

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Pakistan-a ... 0711009295

If cinderella,snow white and alice in wonderland don't put your children to sleep,then I seriously recommend fricker's 'Battle for pakistan'.You can read all sorts of fantasial fairytales on how the mighty pakistan airforce destroyed india,how one wizard called MM Alam shot down 5 aircraft in 30 seconds and all sorts of delusional drivel that's a great replacement for the usual bedtime stories.If your kids do ask 'What's pakistan',don't tell them the truth or they'll get pretty disgusted.'Battle for pakistan' is the best fairytale book I've ever read!It's also great for those wannabe dictators who want to know how to conduct transparent propoganda.

:lol:

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Postby Jagan » 30 Sep 2006 04:44

Fricker is not a television journalist so i doubt if he was the one asking questions.

The first chap to be interviewed is Sajjad Nosey Haider for sure - They might not all be migs, but getting 10 ac in a single raid - you can give him some leeway in terms of bragging rights ...

But the others... i can only :D

Would be nice to put names to the faces though

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Postby svinayak » 30 Sep 2006 05:00

RajeevT wrote:


I gathered from the clip that the first name is John, and he is a Britisher (Reference to IAF Hunters being from 'your country'.)


The main thrust of the interview was the MIG defeat and how the new American aircrafts defeated the Mig.

After the Korean war in the height of the Cold War there was need for victory of the western airpower over the Mig aircraft and to remove the myth of the MIGs built worldwide after the 1950s.
1965 War looks like was executed to create a positive image of the western fighter aircrafts before it was sold to the Arab countries in the 70s.

The other muslims nations were informed and invited to support Pakistan in the War to show the support and this propaganda was used on them.

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Postby Harry » 30 Sep 2006 05:10

'Nosey' is appropriate, but 'Snorty' or 'Crack' would have been even better.

Its ok to brag but to deliberately fool oneselves is something else. But they did'nt talk much about how many tanks they got (7 during the whole war but enough for Fricker to call GT road junction as a "Graveyard for Indian Tanks") for good reason. :lol:

The interviewer was clearly looking to provoke. The second guy did'nt even seem interested in saying anything and seemed a bit surprised when the interviewer turned to him to say 'They shot you down as well!'

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Postby Jagan » 30 Sep 2006 05:41

Acharya wrote:
RajeevT wrote:


I gathered from the clip that the first name is John, and he is a Britisher (Reference to IAF Hunters being from 'your country'.)


The main thrust of the interview was the MIG defeat and how the new American aircrafts defeated the Mig.

After the Korean war in the height of the Cold War there was need for victory of the western airpower over the Mig aircraft and to remove the myth of the MIGs built worldwide after the 1950s.
1965 War looks like was executed to create a positive image of the western fighter aircrafts before it was sold to the Arab countries in the 70s.

The other muslims nations were informed and invited to support Pakistan in the War to show the support and this propaganda was used on them.


Wrong number - because we mostly had british and french aircraft which means we had 'western aircraft' as well. the migs were insignificant in that war.

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Postby svinayak » 30 Sep 2006 05:57

Thanks for the info. The interview was surly for the western audience.

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Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2006 06:38



Call me a man of peace or I'll chop off your head.

The idea of being shot down by an Indian is against the idea of Pakistan. So if you are in an aircraft and an Indian gets behind you and pumps your ass full of cannon shells - your aircraft falls out of the sky because Allah said so and not because of the Indian.

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Postby Samir » 30 Sep 2006 19:41

Very interesting clip. Pilots bragging is nothing new and I dare say, similar tapes could have been made on any base during any war. A certain amount of pysching up is necessary - so long as it doesn't lead to a situation where you go into an operation really believing your opponent is going to run away. Locke famously believed that beliefs were revealed by actions - if a PAF pilot really thought that getting shot down by an Indian wasn't possible then they wouldn't need to take evasive action, would they? What is more interesting is the role that these forty year old propaganda films continue to play in modern Pakistan. After all, the video is being shown in some contemporary function, and hosted by some young Pakistani on YouTube. Do young Englishmen rely on WWII clips to make them feel good about themselves? Only drunken soccer fans trying to rile up Germans, I'm guessing.

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Postby Harry » 03 Oct 2006 04:56

There was an article (on hindustantimes) that a Sabre wreckage had recently been dug up at Halwara and that AR Gandhi flew there to claim it. Does anyone have it archived?

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Postby Rony » 09 Oct 2006 01:58

cross posting from India-china thread.copyrights:sonugn

http://www.ddinews.gov.in/Homepage/Home ... /india.htm

'India could have won 1962 war if it had used combat jets'

Asserting that India could have defeated China in the 1962 war had the combat power of its air force been used, a top serving officer claimed that while then political-bureaucratic combine had sought US Air Force's help but had not even consulted the IAF chief on the issue.

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Postby Harry » 09 Oct 2006 09:11

And what if the Chinese decided to do the same?

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Postby Lalmohan » 09 Oct 2006 17:48

Samir wrote:Very interesting clip. ... I'm guessing.


i love the caption at the end, atleast they got something right - time to get shaheedized is indeed here!

quite liked the motorham too... although there is something disturbing going on when such things are "variety entertainment"

must go and quake in my dhoti and pray to my puny gods in a narrow and dark place...

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Postby merlin » 09 Oct 2006 18:23

And what if the Chinese decided to do the same?


How many bases did they have in Tibet at that time?
How many aircraft and what capabilities did those have at that time?
How prepared was PLAAF?

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Postby Jagan » 17 Oct 2006 00:11

Latest issue of Vayu has the following articles

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2006issue5/angloindian.html

Image

The Indian Air Force did excellent work during World War II to help halt the Japanese advance into India from Burma, and many pilots got Distinguished Flying Crosses (DFCs). Strangely, in this list not a single Anglo Indian name can be found! The first Anglo-Indian in fact to join IAF was MB (Maurie) Barker. Since he had already qualified as a pilot from the Bombay Flying Club, he was immediately commissioned as Pilot Officer, 1691 GD (P), on 11 March 1941 and IAF training soon followed. John Dunbar Aquino was next. After a few months, many Anglo-Indians followed and almost without exception, they proved to be courageous, strong-willed, able pilots and exceptional leaders.


http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2006issue5/golden.html
o.20 Squadron (Lightnings) may have been the second Sukhoi Su-30 squadron of the Indian Air Force, but first with the MKI. In March-April 2002 a team of officers led by CO designate Wg Cdr N S Jamwal VM left for training in Russia on the Su-30MKI that was to be inducted into the IAF to replace the Su-30Ks inducted in 1997. Training was extensive with ground lectures, but impeded by language problems. The team returned to India by May 2002 and the Lightnings team was formed with Wg Cdr N S Jamwal officially taking over as CO.

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Postby Harry » 17 Oct 2006 03:05

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/2006issue5/iafupgrade.html

That article's mine. Have'nt seen the mag yet though!

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VAYU

Postby Phil Camp » 20 Oct 2006 17:54

not to mention a nice article on the warlords, a picture from which has already been scanned and put on Key's forum.

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Postby shiv » 20 Oct 2006 20:53

Harry wrote:And what if the Chinese decided to do the same?


What airfields did China have in Tibet/NE in 1962? In any case then, as now, the IAF would have been taking off from sea level. Not the Chinese

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Postby Harry » 07 Nov 2006 00:45

merlin wrote:
And what if the Chinese decided to do the same?


How many bases did they have in Tibet at that time?
How many aircraft and what capabilities did those have at that time?
How prepared was PLAAF?


The IAF had

57 Ouragan
140 Hunters
224 Vampires
105 Mysteres
33 Gnats
? Canberras

95 Dakotas ( Sqns 11, 43 and 49 )
51 C-119G ( 12, 19 and 48 )
7 An-12Bs ( 44 )
23 Il-14s
24 DHC-3 Otters ( 41, 59 )
6 Super Connies ( 6 )

There were also 5 HUs with S-55C, Bell 47G, Mi-4 and Chetak (for which there were'nt enough pilots). The IAF's combat element not only suffered inaction but would have also suffered losses if it were'nt for the ceasefire on November end - When the situation became hopeless on 20 November, there were orders to burn the airframes of No.29 squadron which could'nt be flown out during the abandonment of Tezpur and its airbase ( Only 8 out of 17 aircraft were flown out due to lack of pilots )

The PLAAF had 1350 MiG-17 and MiG-15, 150 MiG-19 and 500-600 Il-28 bombers.

Caribou drops supplies during the 1962 war, in the Walong sector,

Image

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Postby Jagan » 07 Nov 2006 01:16

Pushpindar singh says that a lone Otter was left at Walong and was captured by the Chinese. They returned it later 'gesture of goodwill'

I think there was an Mi-4 that was captured as well.

What is interesting are the visuals that showed they captured the Bell 47 - But I dont think that was returned.

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Postby Yerna » 07 Nov 2006 02:54

Not IAF history but dont know the appropriate thread, so posting after Jagans reply.

?A mystery behind the history plane
[quote]
It has all the makings of a classic mystery — a World War II German Messerschmitt Bf-109 fighter which flew in the Battle of Britain vanished into thin air from the storage yard of a college campus in Karnataka’s Gulbarga town, where it lay forgotten for over 60 years. Four years and an unsuccessful police investigation later, aviation experts hunting for clues on the priceless aircraft have stumbled upon it in Europe

The breakthrough came early this year, when experts discovered an entry in the UK civil aviation registry in December 2005 matching to the stolen Messerchmitt.

“The manufacturer and construction number of G-CDTI (the new entry) is the same one traced by Ritger to the Gulbarga aircraft. As two aircrafts cannot have the same construction number, it is the missing Bf 109,â€

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Postby R Sharma » 07 Nov 2006 08:16

Were any IAF Mi-24s lost in enemy action in Sri Lanka? I know they took a beating against the mujahideen in Afghanistan, against the stingers.

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Postby Jagan » 07 Nov 2006 20:10

R Sharma wrote:Were any IAF Mi-24s lost in enemy action in Sri Lanka? I know they took a beating against the mujahideen in Afghanistan, against the stingers.


Nope. the LTTE didnt have stingers at that time. One of the choppers was damaged. but nothing more than that.

The army did lose a Chetak - but that was when an airfield was attacked by the LTTE. (bet not many had read that one before!)

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Postby Jagan » 07 Nov 2006 20:13

Yerna wrote:

I read about this place on Warbirds sometime back. Question is, what can the Karnataka police do even if they trace the owner


I dont know what they can do but there is talk about them contacting interpol and all that.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 333715.cms

The Karnataka government is going to write to the Union home ministry to track down via Interpol the Warbird Messerchmitt fighter N 109 that had mysteriously disappeared from here over three years ago.

After a website warbirdsofindia. com contended that the aircraft had been traced to the UK in the name of Xaviar Ray, the CoD investigating the case has proposed this action.

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Postby Harry » 07 Nov 2006 22:53

Jagan wrote:The army did lose a Chetak - but that was when an airfield was attacked by the LTTE. (bet not many had read that one before!)


What happened? When and how did the attack happen?

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Postby Jagan » 07 Nov 2006 23:53

Harry wrote:
Jagan wrote:The army did lose a Chetak - but that was when an airfield was attacked by the LTTE. (bet not many had read that one before!)


What happened? When and how did the attack happen?


I think it was Vavuniya airfield. Surprise attack by the LTTE on the airfield, destroyed a Chetak on the ground. An AF pilot actually took off in an armed mi-8 when the attack was still on and then helped the chaps on the ground beat back the ltte attack. this was sometime in 89 iirc. The pilot received a Vir Chakra. i dont remember the name but can check up and post it here later.

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Postby R Sharma » 08 Nov 2006 02:17

Jagan wrote:
Harry wrote:
Jagan wrote:The army did lose a Chetak - but that was when an airfield was attacked by the LTTE. (bet not many had read that one before!)


What happened? When and how did the attack happen?


I think it was Vavuniya airfield. Surprise attack by the LTTE on the airfield, destroyed a Chetak on the ground. An AF pilot actually took off in an armed mi-8 when the attack was still on and then helped the chaps on the ground beat back the ltte attack. this was sometime in 89 iirc. The pilot received a Vir Chakra. i dont remember the name but can check up and post it here later.


That would be fantastic!

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Postby Jagan » 08 Nov 2006 08:09

Harry wrote:
Jagan wrote:The army did lose a Chetak - but that was when an airfield was attacked by the LTTE. (bet not many had read that one before!)


What happened? When and how did the attack happen?


Okay correction. The pilot took off from another airfield and not from the airfield that was attacked. The airfield that was attacked was at mulaithivu. Date of action 24 August 1988 during Op Checkmate. The pilot was Wing Commander Dhirendra Nath Sahae

There are no casualities listed for that date so i guess only the Chetak was lost. Someone needs to check up the old newspapers from that month and see if anything was reported.

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Postby Harry » 08 Nov 2006 23:19

I noticed this in the BR history section,

Around the same time, four Vampires flying from Jamnagar over the sea near Diu, noticed a Fast Patrol Boat traveling out of the Diu harbour. Upon closer observation, the Vampires were fired at by the Boat. Fg. Off. P.M. Ramachandran - the lead pilot - immediately engaged with gunfire and rockets and sank the patrol boat. For this feat he received the Shaurya Chakra.


The patrol boat was actually heading for INS Delhi, to ram it with explosives.

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Postby Jagan » 08 Nov 2006 23:41

Harry wrote:I noticed this in the BR history section,


The patrol boat was actually heading for INS Delhi, to ram it with explosives.


It was the portugese boat "Vega" (though i doubt the claim of it 'full of explosives with intent to ram)

Image

A direct account Link

[quote]D. - I attended the share of “VEGAâ€
Last edited by Jagan on 08 Nov 2006 23:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Harry » 08 Nov 2006 23:42

Also this

Sqn Ldr Singha was earlier the captain of a Dakota that was shot down during a supply drop at Purr post in Assam. He and his crew had to spend nearly an year as POWs in the hands of Naga Insurgents


This was on Aug 26, 1960 and he managed to land the aircraft safely on a small clear patch. What happened to the aircraft eventually?

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Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2006 10:22

Harry, any chance of using your resources to get cockpit photos or videos of the smackdown on Loonda post ? reports spoke of half dozen mirages appearing on the scene that fateful day(for the pigs) ....surely one must have recorded the episode to 'teach' future green pilots.

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Postby Harshad » 12 Nov 2006 08:35

I dont know if anyone has posted the link to this blog before. Sorry if it is.

The author claims to have been an Ex.Warrant Officer IAF.

http://www.athimoolam.com/category/indian-air-force/

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Postby Jagan » 12 Nov 2006 09:14

Harshad wrote:I dont know if anyone has posted the link to this blog before. Sorry if it is.

The author claims to have been an Ex.Warrant Officer IAF.

http://www.athimoolam.com/category/indian-air-force/


Thanks for the link.

very interesting stuff

http://www.athimoolam.com/category/indi ... /1965-war/

http://www.athimoolam.com/2005/12/03/gr ... -have-met/

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Postby Jagan » 13 Nov 2006 22:10

The canberra book project takes off

http://iafcanberra.wordpress.com/

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Postby putnanja » 21 Nov 2006 01:53

From Asian Age dt Nov 21 2006. Posting in full as it isn't archived...

Death of an Indian airman at Normandy 11/20/2006 10:59:59 PM
- By David McMahon


There was a strangely persistent — but entirely appropriate — French influence through the short life, sudden death and 62-year interim following the burial of Pilot Officer Sayana Puram Duraiswamy Thyagarajan, a Royal Air Force officer killed in World War II.

He grew up in Pondicherry, India, where the early colonial influence was so strong that the French tricolour only came down for the last time on October 31, 1950, four years before France officially handed over the territory to the now-independent nation. And he was on a mission over France on August 25, 1944, when he was shot down. It is a significant date, for it was the very day that Paris was liberated and General Charles de Gaulle led the victory parade down the Champs Elysees.

He was buried in the little village of La Lande St. Léger in Normandy, where his Typhoon fighter crash-landed. For six decades, his grave has been tended by locals in the area, which is 65 kilometres north-west of Evreux. Now he is to be honoured with a special plaque, to be unveiled near his resting place on June 2 next year, in the presence of the Indian ambassador to France and ex-RAF World War II veterans. My interest in this amazing story was kindled by an email forwarded to me 10 days ago by Jagan Pillarisetti, webmaster of www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/. The original email was from Bertrand Goucovitch, the secretary of the Association pour le Souvenir des Ailes de la Victoire in Normandy. The association wanted to find out if the Indian pilot had any surviving blood relatives who could possibly be present at the unveiling of the plaque.

Who was this pilot, who spent his childhood on French soil in India, who fought in a British uniform for the liberation of France and who died in rural France on a day of pride and celebration in Paris?

He was known simply as Tiger, not surprisingly. It was — and still is — a logical nickname for a fellow whose name would have been unpronounceable in wartime, pre-multicultural Britain. To his fellow officers at 263 Squadron, Thyagarajan would simply have been Tiger Rajan.

His resting place (for photographs, see http://david-mcmahon.blogspot.com/) is unique in many respects. As Bertrand pointed out to me in a rapid exchange of emails, his gravestone is uncommon because it has an inscription in three languages — Hindi, English and French. And his burial spot, near the south wall and the small entrance gate, is the only serviceman’s grave in the cemetery. It is a strange distinction in France, where thousands of military remains (many of them dug up and re-interred) are meticulously recorded and maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Thanks to Bertrand’s efforts, we were able to get a first-hand account of Tiger’s last moments.

He was flying a Hawker Typhoon, a gutsy aircraft used in a low-level attack role. Generally armed with rockets to complement its wing-mounted cannons, the sturdy Typhoon was crucial to the Allies’ ground attack strategy. It is thought that Tiger’s mission was to attack an armoured column and while details are sketchy, it seems his aircraft was heavily hit by hostile fire.

Claude Roussel was only 13 years old when he watched Tiger’s stricken Typhoon hit the ground. He said the pilot had tried to force-land the fighter. "He hit a row of poplar trees and the aircraft flipped upside down, blowing up in an orchard. When the village priest went to the crash site, British soldiers had retrieved the pilot’s body and were burying him on the scene as the village was liberated by the Allies only the day before. The priest stopped the soldiers and said that the pilot should instead be properly honoured by being buried in the churchyard nearby."

A few hours after Jagan’s first email, came a clear but poignant reminder of the power of the Internet. Even before a decision could be taken about which paper an advertisement should be placed in to track down Tiger’s family, came an email from Wing Commander (Retd.) D.P. Soni, formerly of the Indian Air Force office. "I have been known to the Duraiswamy family since 1960," the email said. "I used to hear about Tiger from his parents during my visits to Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry (1958-1964) while I was with 4 Squadron, flying Toofanis. How often I was treated to breakfast or lunch and enjoyed their kind hospitality. I knew I was being seen in the shadow of Tiger whom I had never met or seen. He only lived in my imagination." Fittingly, it was D.P. Soni who tracked down Tiger’s only living relative, his sister — whose name I have, but shall not publish because she is 94 — in New Delhi. Soni modestly deflected praise from other former Air Force officers who expressed amazement that he had found Tiger’s sister so swiftly. "For me this was a privilege and honour to be useful in honouring Tiger’s memory," was all he said in response. It was, I guess, the ultimate humble tribute from one pilot to another.



Good work Jagan!!

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Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2006 03:34

Same story in Deccan Chronicle from our city.
Good show Jagan!

Wonder how many more are missing in Europe?

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Postby Jagan » 21 Nov 2006 04:00

Thanks Ramana, Ravi

David comes from an air force family himself and was keenly interested in the story. The original email came to us enquiring whether we can point out any newspapers local to pondicherry - so that the french association can take an advertisement in them to trace Thyagarajans next of kin.

I never expected in the wildest dreams that we would actually trace the next of kin - as it happened when wg cdr soni , a contributor to our site replied back within a few hours of me sending out that he knew the pilots family. he ultimately traced thyagarajans sister and nephew and put them in touch with the french association.

I read about Aurobindo in the Subhash Bose thread on IF (posted by Sushmita). According to Wg cdr Soni, Thyagarajan was also motivated by Sri Aurobindo's sayings that fascism had to be defeated. He joined the RAF in the UK and died the day France was liberated.

I have photos of Thyagarajan in his service in the RAF - a couple are here
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... arajan.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ajan02.jpg
I will soon add a couple of more pictures of him.

Thaygarajans grave in france can be seen in this photo
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6216 ... tiger3.jpg
I will post a close up of it that reveals all the inscriptions. It is an unusual sight because most hindu servicemen in WW2 who died were usually cremated according to custom - so it is a rare event that you will ever find a hindu headstone in any of the CWGC cemetaries. Thyagarajan's is one such grave.

In France, there is only one other indian grave - and another in belgium.

In england there is the runnymede memorial http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ymede.html that commemorates seven or eight airmen.

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Postby Jaeger » 22 Nov 2006 00:44



A real rarity - the aircraft they're posing with is a Westland Whirlwind, of which only 114 were made because of problems with the RR Peregrine engines!
Obviously 'Tiger' was in one of the 'Whirlybomber' squadrons that converted to Typhoons in '43-'44 for the ground attack role over France prior to and after Normandy.

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Postby Jagan » 22 Nov 2006 01:52

Jaeger wrote:


A real rarity - the aircraft they're posing with is a Westland Whirlwind, of which only 114 were made because of problems with the RR Peregrine engines!
Obviously 'Tiger' was in one of the 'Whirlybomber' squadrons that converted to Typhoons in '43-'44 for the ground attack role over France prior to and after Normandy.


For some reason 263 Squadron (The one in the picture) seems to have attracted more than its fair share of indians. see the Indians in RAF album for more pictures.

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Postby Ved » 04 Dec 2006 07:43

I recently got an enquiry from the daughter of a 9 sqn pilot, trying to trace him - can anyone provide a clue? I quote....
'Could you please help me. My father Jeff Robert Bearcroft was a Wing
Commander with the 9th Squadron (we think) in 1945. He was killed in
an aircraft accicent (when flying for Indamar commercial air-freight
in November 1950). On the death recently of my mother, we discovered
pictures & logs books from his Air Force days, but we can not find his
actual squadron or anything about his time in the Air Force. Could you
help me or put me in touch with someone who could... My father's nick
name was 'Ginger Bearcroft'. I would be grateful for any information
you could give me. Thank you. Tara Carman'


I have asked her to scan and email some of the pics with a large group - that may be a good place to start.


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