The IAF History Thread

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby HariC » 22 Aug 2008 21:14

Ved wrote:
vsunder wrote:Ramana, Tank was a superb engineer.

Many years back I heard that Tank was involved with designing the Messerschmit (sp?) 109, Luftwaffe's famed fighter of WW2 - is he old enough?


Close. Tank designed the famed Ta-152 and Ta-154 fighters. The TA-152 was an advanced version of the Focke Wulf 190.

Me-109 was designed by Dr Willi Messerschmidtt .

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2008 21:31

Dr Kurt Tank was the designer of the Fw-190. The interesting thing is he made the transition from designing high performance propeller driven aircraft to supersonic jet fighter without batting an eyelid. All others who did had great labs and facilties(wind tunells etc) to proof their theories.

Look at the timeline from sketch to first flight and production models. Looks like HAL was working overtime. And contrast to the LCA.

Willy Messerschimdt went on to found the MBB in post war Germany. But Tank didnt get any such opportunity.

I still am at a loss to understand why after Koraput was making the engines a refit to the HF-2 was not contemplated.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 24 Aug 2008 07:02

ramana wrote:
I still am at a loss to understand why after Koraput was making the engines a refit to the HF-2 was not contemplated.


Refit of any other engine to the HF-24 required a major redesign of the rear fuselage of the HF-24. Why didnt HAL invest time in that? only HAL knows!

BTW Messerschmitt designed the HA-300 with Egypt , which Gp capt bhargava test flew for the first time.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Aug 2008 08:33

I thought Ferdinand Brandner was the designer of the Egyptian E-300. He was the Junkers Jumo engine designer.

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Re:

Postby Arun_S » 24 Aug 2008 08:47

vivek_ahuja wrote:Hmm...Long time since this thread was seen alive. Time to open it up again with some new stuff...

Location: Lohegaon
Number 6 Squadron super connie before its retirement in march 1984, by which time it had been replaced with the IL-38 in the Maritime Reconnaissance role.

Image


Wow that brought back a flood of memories of that plane and that setting, back in my mind. I always wondered trying to remember the orientation of the hills in the background w.r.t. the hangers of #6 Sqn. Thank you so much.


Some of us may recall that #6 Sqn connies were split ~ 1978 and superconnies with the radome carrying maritime radar went to IN (INS Hansa) and the non-radome superconnies stayed with IAF's #6 Sqn. My father was posted from #6 Sqn to be an instructor at NSS (Navigations and Signals School) at AF Station Begumpet, Hyderabad and in 1976-77 trained the naval aviators that later flew the Superconnies that were transferred from IAF.

The following image is marvelous and unique because it has the Superconnie in the foreground and a C119 Fairchild Packet from AFS Agra in the background. The plane that my father flew before being posting to 6-Sqn @ Pune.

Image

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Re: Re:

Postby Ved » 25 Aug 2008 05:35

Arun_S wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:Hmm...Long time since this thread was seen alive. Time to open it up again with some new stuff...


Lovely pics - ... brings back memories!

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Re: L1049G

Postby chetak » 25 Aug 2008 10:17

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Phil Camp wrote:Dear Vivek,

these aircraft saw life after leaving 6 squadron IAF. They went onto INAS315, Indian navy where they were replaced by IL-38.

Regards Phil Camp


Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I should have been clearer in my statements.

In any case, here is an image of the Navy Connies after retirement:

Image


Guys,
The Super Connies went into INAS 312 and not the INAS 315
INAS 315 with their Il-38s co existed along with INAS 312 for a number of years.
INAS 312 has since re equipped with the Dornier 228 in the MR role. :)

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Sree » 25 Aug 2008 11:03

Chetak, with respect, can you confirm that INAS 312 is operating Dorniers now? If so, which INAS is operating the Tu-142s?

Regards

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby chetak » 25 Aug 2008 19:28

Sree wrote:Chetak, with respect, can you confirm that INAS 312 is operating Dorniers now? If so, which INAS is operating the Tu-142s?

Regards


Sorry Brother, I stand corrected.
My apologies to all.Too many late nights.
INAS 310 operates the Dornier 228 and INAS 312 operates the TU142.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 27 Aug 2008 03:18

I have a question. Is the person wearing a suit on Suranjan Das's right, P. Nilkantan? Also the person
wearing dark glasses on extreme left is that V.M. Ghatge?

First flight of the HF-24

These articles may be dated but addressing some of Ramana's questions.

Vayu Aerospace

Far cry from CAD CAM, all those people with real drawing boards.

P. Nilakantan

I love those pictures of the Super Connies. I still remember the engine sound of the B-24
and the Super connies. A few years ago I saw a Kanpur B-24 in the neighborhood, had
to take my kids to show them after all I have spent parts of my childhood stretched out
an a big patch of green sward looking up as a flight of Box Cars or B-24's went by having taken
minutes before from No 1 BRD, Chakeri, dont forget it was there before they moved it to Nagpur.

Here is the old lady from the IAF still going strong. You can take a chukker on her for $425.00
B-24
Sheer nostalgia man!

Shiv: Somebody you know will be able to say who everyone in the photo is.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 03 Sep 2008 09:53

BTW, what is the story behind the "24" in HF-24 ?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 07 Sep 2008 10:02

A report on the visit of a PAF widow to India to the crash site. I remember reading a report sometime back.
Very moving - and kudos to the IAF for carrying out the exercise.


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby sum » 07 Sep 2008 16:06

Hats off to the professionalism of the IAF....Model soldiers these guys are!!!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Babui » 07 Sep 2008 21:54

That was very moving. It would be good if the PAF reciprocated since their are many war widows on our side too.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 07 Sep 2008 23:04

Cross Posted from PPrune

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history- ... ost4360591

Folks,
Sorry for not replying earlier. Super Connies (they were never called only Connies in the Indian AF) are kind of my speciality. The page pointed to earlier was written by me over 10 years ago, when I wasn't that much of a aviation writer! (I am only a little bit better now)

My father was the last IAF flight commander of a complete Super Connie flight of 9 aircraft. The aircraft were handed over to the Indian Navy just as he got his Wing Commander rank in 1976. Otherwise he would have commanded 6 Squadron as his next assignment (he went on to become OC Flying of Pune AFB, which had MiG-21s and Canberras besides the Super Connies). He was also one of the last QFIs and examiners on the Super Connie, often having to travel to Pune to train and examine pilots for the last two freighter Super Connies, even as a Gp Capt.

The two freighter Super Connies were converted by Seaboard Airlines for Air India before they were handed over to the IAF. The transfer of the Super Connies was gradual, taking over a year to complete before all the Air India aircraft were handed over. This happened over 1960-1961 period. Air India was responsible for all maintenance except line maintenance till the end (1984 for both the Navy and AF) and held all its spares. Pune is only a 100 miles from Santa Cruz airport where the Air India maintenance facility for Super Connies was.

At first they were all passenger and freight aircraft and during this period they all did what were called "UK couriers" to pick up priority cargo. They flew from Bombay-Djibouti-Cairo-Rome-Orly-Northolt mostly though I think Aden was used before the troubles there got out of hand. At the peak, there was a monthly courier run. (Later only the freighters did UK couriers)

The Super Connies were earlier painted in a standard IAF transport scheme with white top half of fuselage and silver bottom half without the blue stripe running the length of the fuselage. The pictures of them here have mostly been acquired by me from various sources.

Then HAL transformed 7 of them into MR aircraft with retractable dustbin ASV-21 radome fitted into the forward baggage bay (and thus not affecting pressurization). The trials were done by Air Marshal Prithi Singh, an ETPS trained test pilot who had also flight tested the Vulcan when in the UK.

My father had completed his EO (Engr Offr) training in an experimental program where pilots were cross trained in that capacity, and was coming back to flying after a couple of years hiatus. He went to see his friend and colleague on a social visit at Air HQ and that gentleman told him he was being posted to An-12s. My dad asked him for a Super Connie appointment instead. His friend was surprised and said to him "Surely you know that the An-12s are replacing the Connie on the Courier route?" (It was a big deal to be travelling abroad in India in those times). My father said he had seen the tri-tailed aircraft as a young Pilot Officer and thought they were the most beautiful aircraft - and didn't care if he had to remain in the circuit flying them! Also it would be infinitely more exciting to fly them in a Maritime Recce role (which he termed as more "operational") than day to day cargo hauling. Probably not a great career move but he has no regrets about that.

When he arrived at the station (as Engr Offr on Migs!) he checked into training them with 6 Sqn. He encountered a great deal of hostility from the crews there. This was because all the pilots wanted to fly the 2 freighters on UK couriers (the few that remained before the An-12s took over completely) and ignored the MR conversions, and didn't want competition from a senior Mastergreen QFI on those routes! This emphasis on route flying was confirmed by no less an entity than Air Mshl PC Lal, the IAF chief responsible for the great 71 war performance of the IAF. He said that number 6 Sqn was an MR and Transport squadron with all it's emphasis on the transport role! (Since he wrote about this in 1971 and the period I am talking about is 1972, the quote is very relevant).

He had support from an amazing CO Wg Cdr Sadatullah who let him convert while working days at the MiG-21 servicing organization. The matter reached then Air Cdre Dilbagh Singh the Station Master (later Chief of Staff) who roared "I can't stop a keen flyer from flying - if he can do both jobs, bloody well let him!". Wg Cdr Sadatullah was a highly experienced pilot on Packets (C-119s) and had done so many UK couriers he had lost count.

The Northolt incident had happened in the tenure of the previous CO. The pilot in command of that flight was a well regarded acquaintance of my father and had hosted my mother for close to a month at his residence when my dad was hospitalized due to a road accident. So he was a perfect gentleman. (I always knew when my father was being nice - there was more to the story!)

He was a very smooth flyer and was very experienced on Liberators (6 Sqn). In fact he converted the ex-USAF and ex-RCAF crews that came to collect Liberators when they were taken out of service. But his instrument flying under actual conditions was "limited", shall we say.

That Northolt incident nothwithstanding, this gentleman became the CO of the squadron. My father shortly after became the OC of A Flight. The CO was also distracted by "other" matters and the best thing about him was that he let my father run the squadron as he pleased!

That Northolt incident still rankles my father because it makes IAF pilots seem incompetent. He feels that IAF transport pilots have to be trained to far higher standards than most, because they were then flying old aircraft with almost no nav aids in very difficult conditions and then also had to deal with being in sophisticated radar environments around the bigger cities. He himself cut his teeth flying C-47s in the same region as the Hump pilots, supplying Indian troops facing China. Flying instruments was second nature due to the violent weather in that part of the world. Which other Air Force in the world flew routinely where the average peak height was 20000 ft, in un-supercharged Dakotas?

Anyway, to cut a long story short my father started emphasizing the MR role a lot more, and took part in many exercises. He thought the Super Connie was the best aircraft he flew - whether at 50 ft searching for ships or on long X-countries.

However, constant vigilance is the price of competence. I showed him Stephen Piercey's article in Propliner and he remarked that most of the pilots shown there were converted to the Super Connie by him. And one of them had to be examined by him for upgrading to Captain. He was shocked to find that this person could not find out what radial he was on, let alone track one. Suffice it to say this person did not get upgraded.

BTW, I seem to remember that the last UK courier by a Super Connie was sometime in 1974. Can someone confirm that? (My father was supposed to be the third pilot on it, but a directive came down that a supernumery pilot was not required).
Thanks for the trip down memory lane - I can still remember these huge aircraft flying over the residential quarters. Amazing sight and sounds!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Sep 2008 07:17

Image

The Revathi Mk-I during flight testing at Kanpur...

-Vivek

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Sep 2008 07:19

Image

The HAL built HUL-26 Pushpak light aircraft...

-Vivek

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 13 Sep 2008 06:21

vivek_ahuja wrote:

The Revathi Mk-I during flight testing at Kanpur...

-Vivek


Another great pic ! thanks a bunch

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 22 Sep 2008 01:00

Some pictures from recent updates

What is the big deal about the aircraft in this pic?
Image

Image
Vampire and Ouragan in formation

For WW2 Buffs
Image

Gnat with Tiger Stripes
Image

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Sep 2008 01:43

Jagan wrote:Some pictures from recent updates

What is the big deal about the aircraft in this pic?


Rare image of the Vampire with the hinged canopy as opposed to the sliding one?

-Vivek

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 22 Sep 2008 02:48

Good answer if it had been a single seater (which always have a sliding canopy) but this is a trainer - two seater thus the hinged canopy is the norm.

This one is a Trainer Mk.55 converted to a Photo Recce Mk 55 (PR.55) version and used by the PR Squadrons of the IAF at that time (101 and 108). The only way to tell the T55 from PR55 is the 'window' in the nose - where the oblique cameras would be taking pictures from! There would be another window on the ther side and one for the forward camera in the front. three in all.

The big deal IMO is that I have never seen an IAF PR55 pic. only T55s

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 05 Oct 2008 19:57

Got this recently - an armed Mystere IVa in flight

Image

Marut with blanked off cannon ports. (a pic of the same ac was already there on BR - but this one is clearer)
Image

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Sanjay » 06 Oct 2008 00:55

A question for the IAF's history experts:

What can anyone tell me about the history of the operations of the following ASMs in IAF service:

1)ARMAT
2)AS.30/L
3)Kh-66
4)Kh-25MR/L/T/MP
5)Kh-29T/L
6)Kh-27
7)Kh-58

We've seen pictures of mock Kh-25MP and Kh-29L in IAF service but how many were purchased and what of the others ?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Sree » 06 Oct 2008 15:48

Jagan wrote: ...

Marut with blanked off cannon ports. (a pic of the same ac was already there on BR - but this one is clearer)
Image


Jagan Garu:

(Now this is really going to demonstrate obsession with trivia, but what the heck ... )

As I recall, from being a schoolboy in Bangalore when the Maruts were being test-flown, there were a few interim versions of the Marut apart from the basic Mk 1, and the Mk 1T trainer, which you've mentioned on the BR IAF site. There was also, iirc, a Mk 1A, a Mk 1B, and a Mk 1R (briefly mentioned in the Marut article on BR). Also iirc, there was meant to be a recce version.

Although the primary differences, I think, had to do with powerplant, did any of the different versions - maybe the recce version - have different armament fits? Would this picture represent one of those versions?

Regards

Sree

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 06 Oct 2008 17:26

Sree garu,

The aircraft photo is from the Presidential Review in 76 and maybe a sqn aircraft. My guess is that Polly Singh has once written that maruts were cleared only for two gun firing in the 71 war - because one of the ac crashed doing a four gun firing trial. maybe this is one aircraft that was modified by removing two guns to save the wt and remained so till they fixed the four gun problem. for the record, all marut photos from the 71 war show all four cannon ports open - no photo with any blanked off ports.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 08 Oct 2008 21:24

The Grand old man of IAF History - Mr. Pushpindar Singh Chopra talks to Vishnu Som about his Three Volume - History of the Indian Air Force - Himalayan Eagles

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/vi ... x?id=12647

Scroll to 11:55 for the Interview and some glimpses of the book

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 18 Oct 2008 11:13

The wreckage of a PAF F-104 shot down near Amritsar in Punjab during the 1971 war, probably sometime on 5th or 6th December.

Image

-Vivek

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Avinash R » 18 Oct 2008 13:49

Remembering the Gnat
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Oct ... 795824.asp

Bangalore : State-owned aviation major, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is all set to celebrate the golden jubilee of Gnat, perhaps the lightest, smallest and most lethal combat- proven jet in the history of fighter aviation.

Incidentally, the IAF was the only Air Force in the world to employ the Gnat in combat.

On September 2, 1965 – Pakistani F-86 Sabre Jet pilots, heady with the success of having shot down IAF Vampire aircraft the previous day and convinced of their superiority from Sabre exploits during the Korean war, were rudely shaken when they came face to face with the IAF Gnats. They were outdone in all the aspects of aerial combat.

The ‘Sabre Slayers’, as the Gnats came to be known, were more than a match for the PAF intruders during wars in 1965 and 1971, so much so that the PAF pilots tried to evade combat when confronted by this tiny warrior.

The Gnats undoubtedly became a household word during both the conflicts – a fitting reminder of those days being the postage stamp issued by a grateful nation and the fact that the only Param Vir Chakra (PVC) awarded to the IAF was to a Gnat pilot. As part of the golden jubilee of the first flight of the Gnat in India, HAL has arranged an event called ‘Vignettes of the Development and Operation of the Gnat.”

This will be hosted by Senior Officers of HAL on November 21, 2008 at the HAL Ghatge Convention Centre, Airport Road, Bangalore.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 14 Dec 2008 09:48

'Kargil-II incident':

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-loonda-kargil-ii.html

There are still points of confusion:

1. What was the exact date of the IAF attack? - July 29th or Aug 2nd - or both?
2. How and when was the intrusion detected?
3. How long was the feature in Paki hands?
4. And finally which exact feature they occupied?

Needless to say there is absolutely no information from the Pak side.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 21 Dec 2008 12:47

An abandoned IAF Mi-4 from the old days at DBO...

Image

-Vivek

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Re:

Postby Aditya G » 21 Dec 2008 20:32

Hi Vivek, whats the story behind this picture?

vivek_ahuja wrote:Image

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 22 Dec 2008 00:41

If I remember it correctly - it was a ferry flight from UK. Hve the crew member names somewhere.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 22 Dec 2008 00:46

Jagan wrote:If I remember it correctly - it was a ferry flight from UK. Hve the crew member names somewhere.


Jagan,

Indeed it was a ferry flight. However, I don't have the names of the crew members. Do you think you can dig that up sometime?

Thanks.

-Vivek

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 22 Dec 2008 01:58

tried a couple of quick scans but didnt find it. will definitely look it up sometime.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 04 Jan 2009 08:37

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/S ... -Wreck.jpg




The Credit for this ddm-ities goes to Defence Journal of Pakistan

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 04 Jan 2009 10:19

Is it possible to ID the aircraft? Is it from som other incident?

Jagan wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/SWAnKFyKEUI/AAAAAAAAGyE/BxEBgP2ym3A/s1600-h/DJ-Canberra-Wreck.jpg




The Credit for this ddm-ities goes to Defence Journal of Pakistan

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 04 Jan 2009 10:44

my theory is that it is a pic of a PAF Bristol Brigand - the sole example.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby K Mehta » 05 Jan 2009 11:39

sure as hell isnt a canberra, its engine is a turbojet not a prop engine in the photo and the cockpit too is different.
looking at the wiki photo of Bristol Brigand your guess seems likely.
One wonders though how many friendly fire incidents were called IAF shot down to give PAF a higher "kill ratio"?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 05 Jan 2009 22:42

Rahul M wrote:BTW, what is the story behind the "24" in HF-24 ?

Rahul pl. read the article on our very own site on Gp. Capt. Suranjan Das. Your question is answered there!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jan 2009 22:48

K Mehta wrote:sure as hell isnt a canberra, its engine is a turbojet not a prop engine in the photo and the cockpit too is different.
looking at the wiki photo of Bristol Brigand your guess seems likely.
One wonders though how many friendly fire incidents were called IAF shot down to give PAF a higher "kill ratio"?


Well, they did shoot down an IAF Canberra over Pakistani airspace in 1959 IIRC. it was supposed to have been a covert flight but a Pakistani mole at IAF HQ gave away the flight details to the PAF and they had Sabres waiting to intercept, which of course they did neatly. The article whose picture is attached above was probably referring to that incident but DDM that they are as well, they cannot distinguish between a Canberra and a early WW-2 bomber!

-Vivek


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