The IAF History Thread

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 07 Jun 2009 23:00

Rahul M wrote:^^^

IIRC I've seen pics of an IAF Mig-29 with the pilots name in a late 80's frontline issue, in a story by manoj joshi. no guarantees though !

Yes you are correct. The name as F/O Chatterjee and the Gound Crew chief name was also painted. I have the issue (unscanned) somewhere.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 08 Jun 2009 16:01

Arjan flew like a butterfly and stung like a Gnat

[Book Review of ICON: Arjan Singh's Biography]

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 03:29

Thanks for that Sunil, another review appears at this link

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/that- ... w/450822/0

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 03:32

Jagan wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:^^^ sorry, does anyone have a link to the vampire pilot story? i can't find it
It should be in the 'PAF opens the account' article - but the photo was actuall published in the book.

Jagan,

What is the name/ISBN of Tufail's book which has the Vampire pilot incident etc.? It seems like something I want to purchase. Thanks!
-Raja

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 03:38

Raja, its Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force.

The article and the rest of his book itself is available on his blog. but the pics arent.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 05:18

Jagan wrote:Raja, its Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force.

The article and the rest of his book itself is available on his blog. but the pics arent.

Thanks Jagan. Just checked amazon.com, it is available for $125!

Unfortunately no sales on eBay

On Tufail's blog post on "PAF Mirages at War" (May 7, 2009) he writes:

A month after the war, the PAF was able to line up 22 Mirages for all to see on the tarmac at Sargodha, while the 23rd Mirage was under maintenance in a hangar. The impressive sight belied claims of any losses that had been incurred by the Mirage fleet during the war.

I smell something fishy here coz I recall an article on B-R where this "no losses of Mirages" claim was debunked coz it seems the French had supplied PAF with more than 23 Mirages (but which was not known publicly) and the PAF simply used the extra ones for the public line-up display to back up their "no losses" claim. It wasnt until the French revealed the existence of "extra" Mirages that the lie was exposed. Anybody remember this article??

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 05:47

ah you havent yet mastered the jedi skills of book search

http://www.dukandar.com/greatairbattles.html

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 06:07

^^^ I have seen that link but it is a paki site albiet with $12.50 price

Have you bought anything from it....only then I can trust it with my CC

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 06:09

Well the credit card processing is done by Yahoo. so it should be safe enough as long as Yahoo is thepayment processor. (just as Google Checkout) .

Most pakistani sites use US based credit card processors. Yahoo is one. 2CO is another popular option.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 06:11

Okie...I might bite the bullet and order from them direct or Insh'allah I might be able to convince one of my neighbors (who is pure) to part with his cc info (I will promise to 'share' the book with him for a month

).

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 06:12

Raja Bose wrote:Okie...I might bite the bullet and order from them direct or Insh'allah I might be able to convince one of my neighbors (who is pure) to part with his cc info (I will promise to 'share' the book with him for a month ).

actually their "look inside the book" feature has three of the pages of the chapter you wanted to read about. the photo IIRC was on page 4 that is not there

http://site.dukandar.com/books/greatairbattlescha2.html

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 06:47

Way ahead of ya

...actually read the whole chapter from Tufail's blog and Dukandar's "look inside" feature but I will buy the book anyways...it is one book written by someone associated with PAF which is not absolute trash or fiction and Tufail seems to have the necessary literary talent as well (unlike Mullah Alam).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jun 2009 07:15

Jagan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:^^^

IIRC I've seen pics of an IAF Mig-29 with the pilots name in a late 80's frontline issue, in a story by manoj joshi. no guarantees though !
Yes you are correct. The name as F/O Chatterjee and the Gound Crew chief name was also painted. I have the issue (unscanned) somewhere.

Decades ago my cousin Suresh was commanding I think) a MiG 21 squadron in Pathankot when I had visited him. I seem to recall that he had the actual cost of the aircraft (in lakhs those days) painted on the nose as a reminder to everyone who dealt with the machine what they were dealing with.

I think squadron commanders have some leeway in this regard, and the painting of names may have less to do with ego issues and more to do with responsibilities of looking after an expensive thoroughbred and keeping it a safe and effective flying machine.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Jun 2009 07:40

shiv wrote: Decades ago my cousin Suresh was commanding I think) a MiG 21 squadron in Pathankot when I had visited him. I seem to recall that he had the actual cost of the aircraft (in lakhs those days) painted on the nose as a reminder to everyone who dealt with the machine what they were dealing with.

That was quite a well known incident in IAF and quite a novel one too in the history of any airforce! In fact, if you look carefully, you can spot WingCo Suresh's handiwork on one of the MiG-21s in the movie Vijeta

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 09 Jun 2009 07:57

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/al ... -1971.html

The Alize 1050 in 1971...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Jun 2009 08:17

That Alize article was a great read!

Guys, I think the practice of painting the aircraft cost was started by some top brass during the 70s. I have a photo of a Canberra from pune with is cost painted as 60 Lakhs . So it was across many different squadrons.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 09 Jun 2009 09:41

^^^ Yeah that was actually a very interesting read...never really came across many articles if any about these exotic birds...if I remember correctly these were the only prop fighter bombers still in op service with the IN (or for that matter the Indian Armed Forces) in a way it would have been very exciting for those operating these amazing machines considering they were the last of their kind and marked a massive change in type of aircraft operated by the Indian Armed Forces ( I guess a bit like the guys who operated the A1 Skyraider that was used in the Vietnam war) and they truly showed their worth during the 71 war

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jun 2009 09:53

andy B wrote:^^^ Yeah that was actually a very interesting read...never really came across many articles if any about these exotic birds...if I remember correctly these were the only prop fighter bombers still in op service with the IN (or for that matter the Indian Armed Forces) in a way it would have been very exciting for those operating these amazing machines considering they were the last of their kind and marked a massive change in type of aircraft operated by the Indian Armed Forces ( I guess a bit like the guys who operated the A1 Skyraider that was used in the Vietnam war) and they truly showed their worth during the 71 war

The French Navy continued to use the Alize till 2000. In early 1972 - there was an airshow at Lohegaon Airport Pune to mark the 1971 victory. I recall being quite startled by the speed and appearance of power of a low flying Alize that had been flown in for the show.

krishna_j · Post by **krishna_j** » 09 Jun 2009 23:59

Raja Bose wrote: On Tufail's blog post on "PAF Mirages at War" (May 7, 2009) he writes:
A month after the war, the PAF was able to line up 22 Mirages for all to see on the tarmac at Sargodha, while the 23rd Mirage was under maintenance in a hangar. The impressive sight belied claims of any losses that had been incurred by the Mirage fleet during the war.
I smell something fishy here coz I recall an article on B-R where this "no losses of Mirages" claim was debunked coz it seems the French had supplied PAF with more than 23 Mirages (but which was not known publicly) and the PAF simply used the extra ones for the public line-up display to back up their "no losses" claim. It wasnt until the French revealed the existence of "extra" Mirages that the lie was exposed. Anybody remember this article??

As far as i know - '71 war PAF Mirage losses - this is another "myth" ; as per various other sources also incl a recent article on PAF Mirages by Usman Shabbir in June '09 UK based Aeroplane Monthly

- Dassault before the '71 war end , supplied only 1 replacement to the PAF for a pre war '69-70 Mirage III EP crash - (remember AMD are famous for extracting every penny with no freebies and notoriously expensive spares) .

Also there have been pointers to a Mirage III EP kill on 11 dec 1971 by a Gnat of 18/23 sqn which has also been debunked as a myth for lack of any evidence

- will wait for jagan to publish his "in the works" '71 air war book and any new tales

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 10 Jun 2009 01:52

krishna_j wrote: As far as i know - '71 war PAF Mirage losses - this is another "myth" ; as per various other sources also incl a recent article on PAF Mirages by Usman Shabbir in June '09 UK based Aeroplane Monthly

Is it different from this article?
http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/200 ... t-war.html

(i know the authors are different - I want to know if they are differences in terms of content).

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 10 Jun 2009 09:29

hi guys , i stumbled over this article so i would like to share http://www.indianmilitaryhistory.org/ia ... _kills.pdf , please ignore if discussed.

portion where Chuck Yeager gets busted is cool ....

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Jun 2009 18:48

vdas wrote:hi guys , i stumbled over this article so i would like to share http://www.indianmilitaryhistory.org/ia ... _kills.pdf , please ignore if discussed.

portion where Chuck Yeager gets busted is cool ....

One of the great mysteries of BRF ..... where did Harry disappear to?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Jun 2009 18:50

HariC wrote:
krishna_j wrote: As far as i know - '71 war PAF Mirage losses - this is another "myth" ; as per various other sources also incl a recent article on PAF Mirages by Usman Shabbir in June '09 UK based Aeroplane Monthly
Is it different from this article?
http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/200 ... t-war.html

(i know the authors are different - I want to know if they are differences in terms of content).

Both are similar in scope - have similar content but have some differentiating points in each. In effect you will need to read both the articles to get a complete picture. It was a weird coincidence that both articles were out at the same time .

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Jun 2009 19:31

WRT to the loss of Mirages in PAF during the war, IIRC there was an article based on de-classified CIA/State Department documents about Mirages being supplied to PAF by either Turkey or Jordan (Turkey i think) but htey were too late in coming. The same were paraded to make up for the loss of Mirages in PAF inventory. Let me see if i can dig it out.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Jun 2009 19:32

those were starfighters from Jordan. After the war three F-5s from Libya joined the picture. The newspapers of that time were replete with Mirage III claims but these were all Ack ack claims which were notoriously inaccurate. The IAF itself made one probable claim over murid (the indian pilot died as well but it was most likely a F-86 air combat). atleast one 'needle nosed' type on ground (possibly some other type) and atleaset one 'damaged' by a Gnat over pathankot . The official Indian history seems to set right these claims - the tally shows zero Mirage III claims overall.

correction: The official indian history claims the following

1 Mirage III destroyed by 'air action on the ground' which corresponds to the claim above
1 claimed as a probable for AA fire.
0 in air to air combat

krishna_j · Post by **krishna_j** » 11 Jun 2009 22:56

Jagan

posts on '71 war will no longer suffice - with a plethora of original research recently published from the other side of the border - hopefully you will come up with something equally big - hopefully in print form

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jun 2009 23:20

shiv wrote:
andy B wrote:^^^ Yeah that was actually a very interesting read...never really came across many articles if any about these exotic birds...if I remember correctly these were the only prop fighter bombers still in op service with the IN (or for that matter the Indian Armed Forces) in a way it would have been very exciting for those operating these amazing machines considering they were the last of their kind and marked a massive change in type of aircraft operated by the Indian Armed Forces ( I guess a bit like the guys who operated the A1 Skyraider that was used in the Vietnam war) and they truly showed their worth during the 71 war
The French Navy continued to use the Alize till 2000. In early 1972 - there was an airshow at Lohegaon Airport Pune to mark the 1971 victory. I recall being quite startled by the speed and appearance of power of a low flying Alize that had been flown in for the show.

I have fond memories of this marvelous aircraft.
Beautiful design as well as a joy to fly.
The Rolls Royce Dart engine had a very distinctive sound.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Jun 2009 07:22

The copy I bought was delivered today. Wow what a book! - long overdue and something that definitely needed to be written from the Pakistani side for decades. (Mansoor Shah's Gold Bird came very close to this but ths one goes further)

The book's 65 air war chapter quotes extensively from our (Samir and mine) own air war book on 65, and it is almost inevitable for me that I have to sometimes read it side by side with mine (and an excuse for my tattered copy to form the background in this photo).

There is no doubt that this book is vital addition to any Indo-pak air combat enthusiast.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Jun 2009 07:52

Jagan wrote: The copy I bought was delivered today. Wow what a book! - long overdue and something that definitely needed to be written from the Pakistani side for decades. (Mansoor Shah's Gold Bird came very close to this but ths one goes further)

Which bookstore Jagman, out with it!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Jun 2009 08:03

Directly off the Publishers website in Pak
http://www.vanguardbooks.com/browse.php ... 1&subject=

reasonably priced - shipping kills the deal though.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Jun 2009 10:20

jagan, i cant even lay my hands on your book ..how does one order your book. I checked all book shops in delhi but none of them had a copy..

so how credible is 'flight of the falcon'?? whats your initial assessment...maybe you will provide a photocopy to all jingos !!

manoj

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 12 Jun 2009 10:48

S Sajjad Haider!is he the same "Nosey Haider"?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Jun 2009 13:49

Jagan wrote:Directly off the Publishers website in Pak
http://www.vanguardbooks.com/browse.php ... 1&subject=

reasonably priced - shipping kills the deal though.

How much shipping? Book is $10.- as per site but no shipping rates given.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 12 Jun 2009 14:19

Indrajit wrote: ... is he the same "Nosey Haider"?

Yep, the very same.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Jun 2009 16:50

Manjgu, In Delhi, Manohar Publishers in Daryaganj will have a copy. If buying online try lancerpublishers.com or anveshan.com both have copies.

Raja, shipping is about 11$ to the US.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Jun 2009 00:49

Finally DDM latches on to Tufail's blog and messes it up as usual:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/as-sp ... ne/475330/

Contrary to the Indian view that he was shot down , Tufail claims that Flt Lt Nachiketa’s MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble “caused by gas ingestion during high altitude strafing.”

@Jagan: Thanks for the info. I might put in an order. 1st I will check anveshan.com.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 19 Jun 2009 21:35

I stumbled on this download

http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/admin/P ... werWEB.pdf

The Proceedings of the
2005 RAAF History Conference
Held in Canberra on 12 August 2005

go to page 135 (119 in PDF) - it has a very nice article on Air Chief Marshal P C Lal of 71 war fame. The best I have ever read.

profile of the author

Mr Sanu Kainikara
Sanu Kainikara is a former fighter pilot of the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 21 years of
commissioned service and vast operational flying experience in a number of modern fighter
aircraft. Currently he is the Deputy Director of the RAAF Air Power Development Centre.
Prior to this appointment he taught Aerospace Engineering at the Royal Melbourne Institute
of Technology University, Melbourne and was a consultant to the Air Operations Division of
the Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO), also at Melbourne. He is a regular
contributor to defence related magazines and has published prolifically on air power and defence
issues in the Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter, Fighter Tactics, Australian Defence Force Journal
and The Leading Edge.
Mr Kainikara is a graduate of the Indian National Defence Academy, Defence Services Staff
College and the College of Air Warfare. He holds two Bachelors degrees and a Master of Science
in Defence and Strategic Studies from the University of Madras. His PhD thesis in International
Politics is currently being evaluated at the University of Adelaide.

they dont give his rank. very odd to address someone with 21 years of service as "Mr" . doesnt the RAAF recognise IAF ranks?

BR is mentioned as a source in the end

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 20 Jun 2009 05:34

Mr Sanu Kainikara
Sanu Kainikara is a former fighter pilot of the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 21 years of
commissioned service and vast operational flying experience in a number of modern fighter
aircraft. Currently he is the Deputy Director of the RAAF Air Power Development Centre.
Prior to this appointment he taught Aerospace Engineering at the Royal Melbourne Institute
of Technology University, Melbourne and was a consultant to the Air Operations Division of
the Defence Science an

Thats Wg Cdr Sanu Kainikara

MiG-21Bis [C2281] of No.26 Squadron "The Warriors" at Palam. The letters "SANU" on the nose denote the first name of the Commanding Officer of the Squadron at that time, Wg Cdr Sanu Kainikara
.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jun 2009 06:38

manjgu wrote:jagan, i cant even lay my hands on your book ..how does one order your book. I checked all book shops in delhi but none of them had a copy..

so how credible is 'flight of the falcon'?? whats your initial assessment...maybe you will provide a photocopy to all jingos !!

manoj

Check anveshan.com from the front page of BR main site.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 Jun 2009 16:05

E-mail scans sent by Ex-Mullah Nayakuddin. May his enlightened soul rest in peace....