The IAF History Thread

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raj.devan
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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby raj.devan » 17 Mar 2014 09:40

Thank you Jagan. Thats something I never knew.

The list of 54 servicemen was first produced in Parliament in 1979, and gets furnished in its original format everytime a question is asked in the Lok Sabha. The last time it was produced was last year by AKA. The list is itself probably filed by the MoD for easy retrieval everytime the issue crops up.

But I have a question: There have been cases of Indian POWs being jailed in Pakistan for years and decades after the war they were captured in concluded. What is the motive behind keeping them incarcerated for so many years? Would it not be easier and cheaper to simply repatriate them as soon as possible?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 17 Mar 2014 16:07

raj.devan wrote:
The list of 54 servicemen was first produced in Parliament in 1979, and gets furnished in its original format everytime a question is asked in the Lok Sabha. The last time it was produced was last year by AKA. The list is itself probably filed by the MoD for easy retrieval everytime the issue crops up.


The facts as i know them - the MoD did not compile this list - nor did the IAF assist in anyway in compiling this list. But you are right when you say it was published in the Lok Sabha as an answer to a question. The list was in circulation for years before .. and when the question was asked in Lok Sabha, someone without consulting records - and worse, just being lazy, republished this non-official list and it became an 'official' one.

raj.devan wrote:
But I have a question: There have been cases of Indian POWs being jailed in Pakistan for years and decades after the war they were captured in concluded. What is the motive behind keeping them incarcerated for so many years? Would it not be easier and cheaper to simply repatriate them as soon as possible?


The cases i hear about are ex-spies and never really applied to actual soldiers from the wars. I am not aware of specifics of actual wartime POWs returning decades later .

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Ankit Desai » 18 Mar 2014 01:05

Jagan sir and Samir Chopra's book review article in The Hindu

Taking off from their detailed and incisive analysis of the air war in 1965 in their first book, The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965, the duo of P.V.S Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra, two of India’s leading modern military aviation enthusiasts and chroniclers, have come up with another engaging book on the air war in the Eastern theatre during the 1971 India-Pakistan war titled Eagles over Bangladesh. In the absence of adequate archival information, the authors have reinforced the book with painstaking interviews with numerous IAF and PAF veterans of the conflict. I was rather surprised the authors chose to concentrate only on the IAF’s air campaign over Bangladesh while a better contested aerial battle was concurrently going on in the Western Sector. Combining the aerial battle on both fronts would have offered greater value to any student of air power or modern Indian military history.


-Ankit

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 21 Mar 2014 07:51

raj.devan wrote:

The list of 54 servicemen was first produced in Parliament in 1979, and gets furnished in its original format everytime a question is asked in the Lok Sabha. The last time it was produced was last year by AKA.


As a matter of coincidence.. I found these today.. the transcript of the Q and A Session from Lok Sabha in December 1978.

1. The answer was filed by the Minister of state for the ministry of External Affairs and not the MoD.
2. To set matters straight, the list only has about 40 names and not 54. and 21 out of these 41 names are of IAF personnel, including one who was missing from the 65 war (Flt Lt Babul Guha)
3. And contrary to what is usually believed, the statement clearly says "188 names conveyed to us by Pakistan.. the remaining names are based on the information received from relatives etc.. of the detainees and conveyed to the Pakistani government". It seems that rather than some sort of secret evidence that the government had, it was essentially depending on the families to come up with the list which in turn was submitted to the Pakistani government.
4. The statement also says that "We do not have precise information regardign the dates since they were detained"

Essentially a hasty statement filed in the parliament by the MEA without consulting the MoD or the IAF, and essentially based on the information submitted by the families.


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 31 Mar 2014 23:11

Man's best friend, arguably the puppy, the dog has stood by him since the early days of flight.
The dog appears in the very first pictures of the Wright brothers at Kill Devil Hill. Why is it that
airmen have had the need for a dog as a friend? Here is some answer to that riddle.
It even has a picture of Bonzo, sitting in the Jeep with Field-Marshal Arjan Singh
with No 1. squadron in the Arakans. This picture is also in the photographic archives
of No. 1 squadron in the BR section of WW2. In Praise of the Squadron Dog:

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/ ... Pooch.aspx

Whatever happened to Bonzo. But No 1 squadron had other pooches as mascots.
There is Caesar on the runway at Miranshah:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... rakan.html

The most beautiful picture of all is ACM Moolgavakar, No. 10 squadron IAF, taking off on a sortie
and waving to his dog, who gazes up at him with admirable devotion:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... urris.html

Lastly but not the least are the pictures on BR from the collection of
the irrepressible MPO(Mickey) Blake and the squadron mascots Jezebel and
Sandy from No. 7 squadron:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... /7Sqn.html

Long Live the Squadron dog!
Last edited by vsunder on 01 Apr 2014 06:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 31 Mar 2014 23:17

OT but maybe relevant. The wife of Allan Templeton, who
appears in the account of the Gnat 50 years later by Augustine Johnsingh
here:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/gnat5 ... -gnat.html

has also written a book. Cheryl Kumar Templeton:

http://www.hayhouse.co.in/BookDetails.a ... k6o5cTZf4=

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 01 Apr 2014 05:23

Jagan sahib, couple of months ago I saw this and sent you the link
through the kindness of Doctor saab, I had misplaced your email id.
If I remember right Advani was the navigator on that ill-fated sortie.

http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2013 ... ft-lt.html

I think the circumstances of this one are mysterious and deserve
a look. Others as you have elucidated can have closure. It is
a terrible thing whatever the circumstances, for families not to have some
sort of closure. Moshe Sassoon's widow now lives in Israel. If I recall this
was JBCU( Jet bomber Conversion unit) just bad luck!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2014 07:03

vsunder, Its 258 in the starred question answer.
The Fizzleya MOFOs murdered him and as usual GOI never bothered about what happened to POWs.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 01 Apr 2014 07:44

Yes Ramana, I know it is 258. But Jagan had advanced the thesis that several
of these cases could be resolved and closure brought. I am sure this
is the case, but cases like that of Lloyd Moshe Sassoon seem not so
straightforward. He was seen in captivity and if he was murdered
and if there is a certainty about it, why not say so. I understand
the reluctance of the GoI to initiate whatever action in a International
court, but why not a declaration Flt. Lt. X was murdered in a Pakistani
prison. At this point the family does not know if he was murdered
or his remains were never found etc. A simple declaration in some official
capacity is least the GoI owes a family.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 07 Apr 2014 17:32

The details of the raid over Mianwali and other details concerning
Flt. Lt. L. M. Sasson:


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... 0KcMVflSz5

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2014 21:50

sunder, regarding Sasoon, There was no real hard evidence that he was 'seen' in captivity - . the only lead was the radio announcement that was heard about a 'flt lt shanti' as a POW . then there was some backtracking that mentioned that the confusion was between another POW who was named 'chati' . who was also shot down on the late evening of Dec 4th.

That said, the Pakistanis very early on notified our government about the bodies being recovered

The Indian authorities were later informed by the government of Pakistan that an aircraft had crashed near Khushab on December 4, between 20:00 and 20:30. The wreckage was located at the village of Nana, 15 to 18 miles from Khushab. The pilot and navigator were both killed, and their bodies were buried at the site.




What the Indian government should have done was to put in a process to repatriate the remains back to india (since the Pakistanis seem to have the details of where they are buried).

It can happen even today but the government doesnt have interest.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2014 22:19

Sassoon was apparently paraded as a captured PoW on TV by the Pakistanis, and recognised by Indian colleagues.


Again, appears to be hearsay. The second link that you provided has the data from an official IAF research work by Sqn Ldr R T S Chhina (mispelled as Cheema) and there was no such claim.

I did meet one IAF officer who did hear the Flt Lt Shanti annoucnement on Pak Radio (again potential to be confused with Chati). But as far as being paraded on TV - its a stretch - thats the first time I am reading on the blog.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2014 22:21

vsunder wrote:Man's best friend, arguably the puppy, the dog has stood by him since the early days of flight.
The dog appears in the very first pictures of the Wright brothers at Kill Devil Hill. Why is it that
airmen have had the need for a dog as a friend? Here is some answer to that riddle.
It even has a picture of Bonzo, sitting in the Jeep with Field-Marshal Arjan Singh
......................
Long Live the Squadron dog!


I recently heard the story of a rather colourful pilot from the late 60s and 70s who gave his pet dog a ride in a MiG-21 Type 77!

(will never ever happen again in todays world!)

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 08 Apr 2014 02:03

Jagan: Thanks for the various clarifications. Thus the onus is on the
GoI for recovery of remains and positive identification via
DNA. Families deserve closure.
If you do find photos, from the 60's and 70's-80's of various
squadron pooches maybe you can start a separate archives.
Yes, a pooch in the air is not possible but I hope
the tradition of a pooch on the ground remains.

Some of the links are also dead, like the "aircraft of Hindustan"
from the WW2 section on BR. That particular video is still
there and can be accessed, the BR link seems incorrect.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 10 May 2014 08:33

Has this been posted before? Book launch of Air Marshal
Raghavendran's book, with an introduction by Jag Mohan "Jaggi"
Nath of 106 Squadron fame ( recce of Badin SU and subsequent
kaput operation by one Pete Wilson in 1965)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hjCZFoXjE

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Manish_P » 20 May 2014 16:17

Received the sad news over email earlier today...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is with deep regret that I inform you of the passing of one of Rediff.com's finest contributors, Mr M P Anil Kumar, this morning

Paralysed below the neck in a road accident in June 1988, Mr Anil Kumar -- then a fighter pilot for the Indian Air Force, and someone his classmates at the NDA believed would be a future chief of the air staff -- lived the next 25 years at the Paraplegic Centre in Pune.

Refusing to give in to despair, he began contributing articles to the media, using his mouth to painstakingly write articles on a computer (having seen him do it, you cannot believe how difficult it is). His life features in textbooks in Maharashtra schools.

You can read about him here: http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... -kumar.htm

Every article he wrote for us was memorable. I leave you with a glimpse of this most incredible man, a true inspiration to all of us:

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/an-i ... 130904.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/the- ... 130905.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/the-f ... 111213.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/the-f ... 130622.htm
(though he did not mention his role in this matter, it was his tireless efforts that ensured that this young man received justice)

We mourn his loss.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby maz » 08 Jun 2014 23:01

IAF special cover releases at http://indianarmycovers.blogspot.com/20 ... adron.html

Has brief but useful historical info.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Nikhil T » 22 Jun 2014 18:41

Posting a story of my extended family who lost a son in 1971 testing the HF-24 Marut (pics inside the article):

43 YEARS ON, IAF PILOT'S CHILDREN LEARN HOW DAD HELPED TEST TOP GUN FOR 1971 WAR

A touching reunion accorded to widow and children Sq Ldr Arun Keshav Sapre had died testing four-gun firing on HAL's Marut aircraft. This week, for the first time, his widow, children and grandchildren visited his unit in the city on a nostalgic trip

Through most of 1971, the country's armed forces had a premonition that they would be involved at some point or the other in the events that led to the birth of Bangladesh and had begun preparing at full tilt. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited was trying very hard to en sure its four-gun firing mechanism on its marquee fighter aircraft, the Marut Mk1, was ready for use in battle.
The four-firing mechanism had to pass muster of IAF pilots of the Kanpur-based Aircraft and Armament Testing Unit (A&ATU) to be declared ready for service and tests were being carried out at the Jamnagar Air Force station in Gujarat, not far from the border with Pakistan. On November 19, 1971, Sq Ldr Arun Keshav Sapre of A&A TU, who was called up to test the mechanism, bid adieu to his wife and three children -the eldest was barely five -in Kanpur. Little did they know it would be the last time they would see him. Three days later (December 21, 1971), Sapre's family was told of the tragic air crash. His Marut Mk1 singleseater aircraft had nose-dived into the marshy terrain of the Gulf of Kutch. Neither the aircraft nor the body of the pilot was found.

A&ATU was later rechristened Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) and moved to Bangalore.

On Thursday, 43 years after Sapre’s passing, a small but unusual ceremony unfolded at ASTE when Sapre’s family — his widow, Meena Sapre, children and grandchildren — paid a visit to his unit. It was significant since it was their first as a family and the firstever visit for the children. Making the family proud, Sq Ldr Sapre’s ex-commanding officer, now an octogenarian, and his batchmates from different parts of the country were present “if only to tell Sapre’s children what a brave man their father was”. For the tests which Sapre conducted were to prove decisive in the 1971 war.

Meena Sapre told BANGALORE MIRROR that although risk was part and parcel of a fighter pilot’s life, she had never believed that she would lose her husband so tragically and so early.

“We were only a few years into our marriage,” Meena said. “My eldest daughter, Suneri Gowardhan, was just five-years-old, Rupesh, our son, was only two-and-half and the youngest, Munesh, was only five-months-old when the blow fell. Our children were too small to understand what the loss meant then. But as they grew older, they were always curious about their father and wanted to know about his deeds for the country. I was always told them about his exploits, but I brought them all here to his unit to help them understand the life of a fighter pilot.” Meena revealed that she never gotten over the shock of losing her husband, but is proud that her husband was chosen as a test pilot. “Not all pilots are taken in as test pilots,” she said. “Only the very best the crème de la crème of fighter pilots, get that chance. My husband was one of them. A few hours after the tragic incident we were informed

about the crash. But I still hoped. He was a strong swimmer and I hoped he had ejected. I grew more hopeful when some said they had seen him ejecting. But the terrain where he crashed is marshy. Fishermen flock to the area every day, but I was out of luck. On that day, not a single fisherman had put out to sea. I believed that at least they could have helped us locate his body. But we never got him back.“
LIFE WITHOUT DAD With three tiny children to look after, life was a daunting task for Meena. But she moved on. “We immediately shifted to my husband's native Raipur in Chattisgarh,“ she said. “While rehabilitating the family, the IAF gave us a gas agency from Indian Oil. We named our agency Marut, after the aircraft. I singlehandedly managed to raise the kids. It was difficult, but I managed to nurture all of them without letting them feel the loss of their dad too much. Thought all too short, I always cherish those memories that we had together.“

Sapre's children are now all into the family business. Rupesh Arun Sapre told BM, “We didn't feel the los of dad so much growing up. Mom wa always there for us. But today, when we look back, we miss him a lot. Al though technically we were out of th IAF, we were always in touch with th IAF's traditions and flying. A flyin simulator was set up at home to give u afirst-hand experience of flying. Mom took us to all parts of the country t show us around and helped us to stan on our feet. While none of us were abl to get into services, our children hav shown interest. We all thought tha this is the right time to know what i takes to be as a soldier and pilot. So, ou mom brought all of us here.“

The visit to their Sapre's unit wa not only nostalgic for the family, but also staffers at ASTE. The family was re ceived by ASTE commanding officer, Air Vice Marshal R Nambiar, and was taken around the unit to see test crew memorial, the museum and other fa cilities. As a surprise for the family, the unit had invited Sapre's then com manding officer, Gr Capt Kapil Bhar gava (Rtd) and his course mates, Air Vice Marshal P M Ramachandran (Rtd) and Air Marshal AS Lamba (Rtd).

“It was an amazing experience,“ s said Rupesh. “They are all over 80 and s some of them are unable to walk with out support. Yet, they had taken the trouble to travel to the unit just to e spend time with us. We learnt so much e about our father from them. We were g told that our father's sortie was crucial s for the IAF in getting operational clear ance for the Marut fighters. His course o mate told us how creative he was and d how he always thought `out of the e box' to achieve the designated tasks. It e is an unforgettable experience.“

t t CRUCIAL MISSION r One senior retired officer at IAF re vealed that Sapre was often referred s as 'Saper' in the unit. “That is because he never backed off from a challenge,“ the officer said. “Ahead of the war with Pakistan, we had to clear the aircraft for four-gun firing. The aircraft had proved very unsteady due to vibrations during four-gun firing and the problem had to be sorted out.
It was a scary task, but Sapre readily volunteered to do whatever was demonstrated by HAL engineers.
There was no trouble with two second-long bursts of four-gun firing.
But then it was decided to test for four seconds. While flying over Samrat range near Jamnagar, the Marut went into the Gulf of Kutch and was never found.“

Marut fighter jets successfully took part in the Indo-Pak war a month later and none of them were lost in air-toair combat. In fact, a squadron of Maruts destroyed Pakistani tanks and artillery units in the decisive battle of Longewala on the morning of December 5, 1971.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 24 Jun 2014 07:48

Here are two scanned (in part) pages from the official HF-24 history book which indicates why gun firing trials are such a big deal. These are the sorts of issues that the LCA will have to deal with in its gun firing trials. Kelik on image to see enlarged version
Image

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 25 Jun 2014 08:04

New article - Adolf Hitler's test pilot in Bangalore
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/index ... le&id=1179

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Kashi » 02 Sep 2014 13:35

Ajai Shukla seems to have some harsh words for the IAF in his article on rediff today

Does IAF need this self-congratulatory nonsense?


This is on the performance of the IAF during the '65 war.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby merlin » 02 Sep 2014 13:58

And here is the link to his article - http://ajaishukla.blogspot.fr/2014/09/t ... pened.html

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby member_27862 » 05 Sep 2014 07:56

merlin wrote:And here is the link to his article - http://ajaishukla.blogspot.fr/2014/09/t ... pened.html


Guys, I think the celebrations are a kind of remembrance for all the air warriors who took part in the operations. Just because our propaganda was not akin to what the Pakis did with John Fricker's book, does not mean that our boys were lacking in delivering the punch. PAF may have heroically told the stories of their Alam, Sajjad and Rafiqi, the IAF or the Indian government has till date never undertaken any major effort to tell the stories of our boys in 1965. And naturally Ajai Shukla is exploiting this void of dearth of good material to pay homage.

I just wish Mr Shukla would have read the painstakingly researched excellent account of 1965 war written by Jagan as well as various articles on BR and by Pushpinder Singh in the past, he would have clearly seen that the celebrations are beyond chest beating of any kind. The celebrations are to remember all the boys who stood for India at a time when things were not clear. The IAF learnt the meaning of 'fog of war' in 1965 and I am sure it has done good to them. At the same time we have had a Rathore, a Neb, a Devayya, a Cooke (the most underrated IAF ace pilot whose story stands as tall as Alam) and all those strikers from various squadrons who undertook daring missions against Sargodha, Badin etc etc. The celebrations are a tribute to all the unnamed warriors ,who have finally been acknowledged in this tribute to their valour and sacrifice.

And Mr Shukla, you can take your interrogative brand of journalism, full of half found truth and unaccounted prose, to a crony publisher, who shares your clouded vision of mistaking a homage celebration with self praise and earn some brownie points with like minded individuals. BTW the PAF has a Nishan e Haider waiting for you on this one. Cheers

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2014 08:43

Well said Sameer Joshi. There was nothing in the celebrations to warrant Shukla's mocking tone and tasteless jibes at those who actually fought and delivered in 1965. Can he claim the same? I think this article of his was in phenomenally bad taste & based on little to no research. Citing that paid hack Fricker as a good source? Oh please.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby rohitvats » 05 Sep 2014 08:54

Karan M wrote:Well said Sameer Joshi. There was nothing in the celebrations to warrant Shukla's mocking tone and tasteless jibes at those who actually fought and delivered in 1965. Can he claim the same? I think this article of his was in phenomenally bad taste & based on little to no research. Citing that paid hack Fricker as a good source? Oh please.


Ever since the BTT fiasco where Shukla's assertion about IAF's selection of Pilatus were rebutted by IAF in strong terms, he seems to have had a bone to pick with IAF.

He was cornered on this article on twitter by ex-IAF types who did tear a new one into him. Ably assisted by @Bharatrakshakvayusena...bloody idiot!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2014 19:22

X-post....
tsarkar wrote:Unfortunately a lot of mindsets need to change. IAF is unwilling look at larger things beyond CAS, and its MiG squadrons religiously practice rocketry, while Sukhoi & Jaguar squadrons practice conventional bombing, despite the obvious vulnerability. It also opposes attack helicopter induction by IA.

Instead it should focus on Air Dominance & Deep Interdiction



tsarkar, I would request you to put down your thoughts on IAF's institutional culture in the IAF history thread from the perspective of an outsider.

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 25 Sep 2014 20:14

X-post...
Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ IAF needs to move out of CAS and get into interdiction. Like they discovered in Kargil, CAS from fast jets requires them to slow down to identify & acquire targets and employ weapons, making them vulnerable to MANPADS. AD systems like RBS70 have been designed to engage aircraft when they slow down to make gun, rocket & bomb runs. Which is why IAF switched to interdiction in Kargil rather than CAS.


IAF would have much preferred to fight the interdiction war. However, it was the IA which required CAS type ops and there was much anger expressed at the lack of IAF focus on CAS! At the time, IA lacked sufficient deep arty assets and own fire support. It had to bunch together its 155mm units to get the firepower it wanted.

The IAF view on Op Safedsagar on what it did versus what it prefers:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... henag.html

The IAF was thus drawn into this battle fought over some of the highest terrain on earth. Never before has any air force been tasked to achieve such military objectives; not to mince words, therefore, this operation by the IAF is, by professional standards, a trailblazer. The types of targets required to be engaged were not conventional target systems that air forces all over are trained to engage. No mobile forces or armored columns, neither industrial targets, nor power plants or railway yards here. No runways to neutralise, or communication networks to paralyse.


What the IAF believes as versus the fact that they do it because IA needs them to do so:

Firstly, in the area of interdiction of enemy supplies, the successful and incessant attacks on the enemy's logistic machine had, over the last few weeks, culminated in a serious degradation of the enemy's ability to sustain himself in an increasing number of areas. The series of attacks against Pt 4388 in the Dras sector was an excellent example of how lethal air strikes combined with timely reconnaissance detected the enemy plans to shift to alternate supply routes which were once again effectively attacked. In this the IAF succeeded in strangling the enemy supply arteries, amply testified to by enemy radio intercepts. The primacy of interdiction targets as opposed to Battlefield Air Strikes (BAS) targets was clearly brought out, as also the fact that air power is not to be frittered away on insignificant targets like machine gun posts and trenches, but on large targets of consequence (like the supply camp at Muntho Dhalo or the enemy Battalion HQ on top of Tiger Hill). Gone are the days of fighters screaming in at deck level, acting as a piece of extended artillery. The air defence environment of today's battlefield just does not permit such employment of airpower anymore, a significant fact that needs to be understood by soldier and civilian alike.


CAS should be left to missiles like Prahaar & Prithvi, supported by helicopters like Apache & LCH.


CAS requires man in the loop guidance because of the constant danger of closely located friendly troops. Missiles like Prahaar and Prithvi are meant for deep strike, not CAS!

You need the ability to call off or abort attacks at the last moment, thanks to the constant element of human errors eg wrong map details wrong target locations of friendlies etc.

Because of the vulnerability of fast jets in CAS mission, we need more Apache & LCH.


You are mixing up effectiveness with vulnerability. Fast jets are more survivable in CAS because they have the speed and energy to ingress and egress rapidly. Helicopters on the other hand, if detected are far more vulnerable. However the very speed that makes fighters more safe, makes them ineffective against hard to locate targets which require eyeball Mk1, even if it in turn is peering into a sensor and risk friendly targets.

Also, doesn't make sense using a multi million fighter to target sangars, like IAF discovered. An attack helicopter with rockets & missiles or a Prahaar or Prithvi will do the job better & cheaper.


Attack helicopters have weight/altitude restrictions (LCH apart) and Prahaar/Prithvi will simply not get the job done when the area to be covered is huge. No country has ever used BMs like Prithvi for replacing CAS. Interdicting/striking columns/C3I not "dangerously close" to own infantry, yes.

Even at Kargil, point blank bombardment from 155mm guns was not enough to get all the Pakis out, though it was a supporting factor and ultimately it took infantry at the point of the bayonet to get the job done.

So, if CAS has to be reduced, IA has to be built up with own helicopter assets and artillery + organic firepower all the way down to section/unit level. No other way.
IAF opposes IA getting heptrs because it sees that as an erosion of its own asset base, same way it opposed IN getting Connies. Not because it wants to do CAS.

In the US, the USAF similarly took over US Army's C27J fleet. UK's inter service squabbles over resources are also legendary.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 25 Sep 2014 20:15

IAF celebrates 50 years of end of 1965 India-Pak War.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 09 Oct 2014 02:08

A picture to remember:

PM Modi and Marshal of the Airforce Arjan Singh on Oct 8 2014

Image

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby member_27862 » 09 Oct 2014 07:10

IAF 1965 Air Campaign Remembrance Logo. IAF is going all out to pay homage to its veterans in a formal manner.

Image

There will be a 2015 Calendar with digital art recreation of some of the combat scenes. There is also a book coming out.....though I cannot be sure if all these will be commercially available.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Vipul » 09 Oct 2014 07:11

Indians who lorded over European skies in WWI.

The First World War had 1.3 million Indians fighting in every theatre of the conflict. A handful of them fought in the air, and one of them became the first Indian fighter ace. Yet outside the Indian Air Force, which celebrated its 82nd anniversary on Wednesday, there seems to be little awareness about the role of India's air warriors in the Great War.

It all started with a Sikh student studying in Oxford expressing his wish to join the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) in 1917, when the war had reached a crescendo. Sardar Hardit Singh Malik was initially denied permission to join the force; he was instead asked to serve as an orderly in an Indian military hospital. "He had to overcome institutional racism to become a fighter pilot for the British before he took on the Germans," said Harbakhsh Grewal of UK Punjab Heritage Association, one of the organizers of the widely acclaimed 'Empire, Faith, War: The Sikhs and World War One' exhibition in Britain.

A disappointed Malik then went to France to help out the beleaguered French as an ambulance driver. There, too, he asked if he could volunteer in the air force. The French agreed. Malik then wrote to his tutor in Oxford about it, who then took it up with the chief of the RFC and said it would be an embarrassment if a British subject had to be employed by the French. "That's when I heard from General Henderson, chief of RFC, who asked me to see him. After that meeting, I was sent for training and got a commission in the RFC as a fighter pilot," Malik had said in a TV interview in the early 1980s. Malik became the first Indian fighter pilot of the RFC, which became the Royal Air Force during the war. With a precedent thus set, the RFC opened its doors to Indians.

Malik shot down six German fighters in those early days of aerial combat when fighter pilots tried to shoot each other down with pistols and rifles when they came too close to each other. The life expectancy of fighter pilots in those days was just 10 days in combat. Yet Malik survived the war despite being wounded in action.

Malik's squadron also duelled with Manfred von Richthofen, the famous 'Red Baron'. But despite his kills, Malik was officially credited with only two and missed out on the title of 'ace' (a pilot who downed five or more enemy aircraft). That credit went to another Indian pilot, Lieutenant Indra Lal "Laddie" Roy.

Roy, too, was studying in London and had just turned 18 when he volunteered for the RFC. He got a commission and was placed with no. 56 squadron first before being transferred to no. 40 squadron. In just 170 hours of flying, Roy shot down 10 enemy aircraft, thus becoming a full ace. Roy didn't survive the war. He was shot down in July 1918, aged just 19. He was awarded with a Distinguished Flying Cross posthumously.

Two other Indian pilots who saw action on the Western Front were Lieutenant Srikrishna Welingkar and Lieutenant Eroll Chunder Sen. Welingkar, like Roy, didn't survive, while Sen became a German PoW, released only after the war. Malik joined the Indian Civil Service and had a distinguished career. He became Independent India's first high commissioner to Canada, and Jawahalal Nehru is believed to have made him Indian ambassador to France to use his goodwill among the French to settle the return of French colonies to India. Britain, however, always remembered Malik as the "turbaned young fighter pilot who shot down Germans in the air".

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby member_27862 » 09 Oct 2014 07:38

A couple of snapshots from the digital art being made for the IAF 1965 Air Campaign homage effort. These are in black and white. The originals will be in full colour......The images are off course copyright by the design team who made this.


Image


Image


I guess we all need to thank Jagan and other IAF centric crusaders to inspire us with their back breaking efforts to present the facts.......:) Long live Bharatrakshak
Last edited by member_27862 on 09 Oct 2014 08:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 09 Oct 2014 07:53

Jagan: I just want to point out that Group-Captain Donald Lazarus VrC has linked your book, Eagles over BD on his FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/Gp.Capt.DonLazarus.Vrc

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 10 Oct 2014 02:00

Jagan sir: I noticed, you also did a like, thanks. I was 16 when that event happened, I do not think I will ever see such a spectacle ever in my life, what an event that was, it is obvious it has had a great impact on my life. Sadly two of the people on stage would be snatched away cruelly at a young age, life can be cruel.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 10 Oct 2014 08:02

Sunder thanks for the headsup. Yes i have seen the page very early on and had circulated it on the br iaf fb page as well. I had the opportunity to interview him by phone for my book and ofcourse Wg Cdr Sunith Soares, the fourth man very early on in person in Bombay.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby vsunder » 11 Oct 2014 02:48

If I remember correctly, Wg Cdr Sunith Soares was not asked for the Hall day and the committee for the Hall day got canned later for this oversight, which is really bad form in my opinion. The Wingco has penned his recollections on that fateful day for his school website. Seems the school has produced many gentlemen who took part in ops in 1971. There are a few tidbits in that writeup by the Wingco, all of which I am sure you know, but does not appear in the accounts of that time. The Wingco and Gp. Capt. Lazarus were playing scrabble when the klaxon sounded, and it was Ganapathy's idea to beat up Dum Dum on their return. I recall some AN12 was told to hold by ATC Dum Dum when the 4 guys were doing their barrel rolls.

http://stanislites.org/alumni/node/869

@Sameer Joshi/Jagan: Where or how do you get that lovely calendar, seems a labor of love? I want a hard copy for my office. Does one have to do punishment drill NCC style, fess up what is the secret and when does it become available.
That Canberra raid on SU Badin looks fantastic.


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby JaiS » 05 Nov 2014 18:35

Military history as adjunct of political strategy


India’s military history and wars since Independence have been well-chronicled, though in a piecemeal manner, within the country and abroad by scholars like Sumit Ganguly (The Origins of War in South Asia); Stephen Cohen (Arming without Aiming); Jaswant Singh (Defending India); Srinath Raghavan (1971-A Global History of the Creation of Bangladesh); and Neville Maxwell (India’s China War).

However, only a handful of civilian writers like P.V.S. Jagan and Samir Chopra (Eagles over Bangladesh: The Indian Air Force in the 1971 Liberation War) have written extensively about specific campaigns and battles.


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby JTull » 06 Nov 2014 23:19


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 07 Nov 2014 00:20

Unfortunately Shuklaji is becoming a partisan hack. A colonel level officer is expected to have some balance for next level is brigadier.


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