The IAF History Thread

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 08 Mar 2010 22:29

Courtesy Vayu

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 08 Mar 2010 23:10

I am sorry about some of the scans coming out cross-eyed, this time Vayu mag was too thick and I had a tough time trying to scan them out in my el-cheapo scanner.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Mar 2010 23:19

OT: do you have the KS-172/K-100 pages ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 10 Mar 2010 17:50

Nayak, thanks for the scans. The PeteWilsons War ARticle was fascinating - esp the details on how they carried out the deception at Bhuj.

No wonder the Pakistanis sent 20 sorties by night against Bhuj to knock out imaginary operations but only four sorties against Jamnagar.

I suspect that this article must have come from contributions to the recent 47 Squadron Illustrated History book

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 10 Mar 2010 18:29

Nayak thanks a ton to you for your wonderful Vayu scans. They are always a delight to read.

Cheers....

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 22 Mar 2010 03:21

For those who dont venture out of the forum (i.e dont visit the main site front page)

Air Commodore T K Sen is publishing his memoirs at his blog at http://tkstales.wordpress.com . In this blog, he covers all the events from his chilhood to his entire career in the Indian Air Force in great detail.

He is starting to write about the 71 war which I promise will be quite informating and entertaining

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 23 Mar 2010 05:16

QUESTION

This article http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ewoor.html by Gp Capt Anant Bewoor VM (Retd) informs us that IL-76 were used to land at Thoise back in 1988, when the runway length was 6050 feet at this 10,000 foot elevation runway, and they did this with 34 tonnes of cargo on board. The picture that accompanies the article shows an An-32 and an Il-76 parked side-by-side on what seems to be a gravel tarmac. The runway is now a 10,000 foot long paved runway.

Does anyone know if in 1988, when that first IL-76 landed there, was that runway paved, or gravel ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Mar 2010 05:49

it had a paved runway at that time.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 23 Mar 2010 08:16

Thank you!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Mar 2010 02:49

Another gem from Kaiser:
http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/201 ... 1-war.html

Some googling reveals that there were multiple PIA losses in 1971 (with pics):
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/view ... =1&t=15751

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Mar 2010 02:52

About time that the lost PIA crew got its due. This is the first time I have seen them being named.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Mar 2010 03:04

I recall our previous discussion on ability to attack Bombay. It seems that there was a plan even in '71:

A two-ship B-57 strike on Bombay harbour, staged through Talhar, was planned but cancelled at the last moment, later during the war, according to Wg Cdr Akhtar Bukhari, the B-57 detachment commander at Masroor who was to fly the mission alongwith the Base Commander, Air Cdre Nazir Latif. Some B-57s had been modified to carry four F-86 drop tanks under the wings to be able to fly a lo-lo-lo profile. Two similar long-range strikes had been flown earlier by Mianwali-based B-57s when they staged-through Rafiqui (Shorkot) to attack distant Agra.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Mar 2010 04:19

The thing that doesnt make sense to me is what advantage that Talhar provided the B-57s. The main base for them was Masroor and Bombay would have been almost the same distance from either of the locations.

If IAF Canberras can fly from Pune to Masroor , then so could they on paper.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Mar 2010 05:18

Aditya G wrote:

Some googling reveals that there were multiple PIA losses in 1971 (with pics):
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/view ... =1&t=15751

This should interest you as well
http://www.historyofpia.com/forums/view ... =1&t=16691
Cessna Shootdown of 1967

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Mar 2010 02:56

Thanks Jagan ... i learnt something new today! Do you know more about a O-2 bird dog that was shot down in the same time?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 26 Mar 2010 04:40

Well that O2 Bird Dog incident happened at around October or Nov 1965. Trevor Keelor claimed the kill - Incidentally Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy was said to be his wingman at that time. One of the occupants of the aircraft was killed, the other was hospitalised.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Apr 2010 07:16

Flight of the Falcon - Book Review from an Indian perspective.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Books ... 2-812.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Apr 2010 07:41

pardon me, google tells me O-1 is birddog and O-2 is skymaster ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Apr 2010 07:45

Rahul M wrote:pardon me, google tells me O-1 is birddog and O-2 is skymaster ?

my mistake. O-1 it is!

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 17 Apr 2010 16:54

SOrry, am a civvie and a newbie to defence matters - though very interested in history. Came across the following on wikipedia, and did not know where to ask. Probably this is the best link to post it to. Can somebody comment if it is true - both the incidences:
In June 1965, prior to the outbreak of the 1965 India-Pakistan War, India and Pakistan had a border skirmish in the Rann of Kutch region near the south-eastern coastline of Pakistan. The PAF was tasked with providing point-defence to the Rann of Kutch region to prevent the Indian Air Force (IAF) from intruding into Pakistani airspace and attacking Pakistan Army positions. On 24 June 1965, an IAF Ouragan fighter (Serial No. IC 698), flown by Flt. Lt. Rana Lal Chand Sikka of No. 51 Auxiliary Squadron from the IAF's Jamnagar Air Station intruded into Pakistani airspace. A PAF F-104A Starfighter from No. 9 Squadron intercepted the IAF fighter near Badin in Sindh, Pakistan. Just as the PAF pilot locked on to the Indian fighter and was about to release his AIM-9B Sidewinder Air-to-Air Missile (AAM), much to the surprise and amusement of the PAF pilot, the Indian pilot lowered his aircraft's landing gear (an internationally-recognized sign of aerial surrender). The IAF pilot landed at an open field near Jangshahi village near Badin. The IAF pilot was taken prisoner and released on 14 August 1965 - as a goodwill gesture on the 18th Anniversary of Pakistan's Independence Day - minus the IAF Ouragan fighter, which was retained by the PAF as a trophy and flown by a PAF pilot to an airbase in Karachi. (NOTE: This event is not to be confused with the surrender of an IAF Gnat on 4 September 1965 during the 1965 India-Pakistan War, which is on display at the PAF Museaum Karachi

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 17 Apr 2010 18:21

According to a source (ex-IAF) this guy landed by mistake and certainly did not surrender. He later rose to the position of AVM. Will see if I can get more details.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 Apr 2010 19:44

kenop wrote:According to a source (ex-IAF) this guy landed by mistake and certainly did not surrender. He later rose to the position of AVM. Will see if I can get more details.

I believe that was the Gnat pilot and that 'surrender' was a navigational error. Kaiser Tufail mentions it in his blog; the 'victorious' F-104 pilot hadn't even seen the Gnat that supposedly surrendered to him.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 17 Apr 2010 22:29

Couple of things here.

The Ouragan incident. Pilot strayed over the border - he wasnt intercepted nor surrndered. He had already pranged by the time the Sabres came and saw him. So this story about 'interception and surrender' is bunkum. This is also confirmed in a back handed manner that no PAF publication ever mentioned who the pilots of the intercepting Sabres were - nor gave any credit unlike the Gnat incident in which Flt Lt Hakimullah is given credit.

The Gnat Incident - Kaiser Tufail confirms Hakimullah never saw the Gnat till it was on the ground deploying its chute at Pasrur. Sikand had already made up his mind to land much before the Starfighters arrived on the scene.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/200 ... s-104.html

. Though Hakimullah could not sight the tiny Gnat at the speed he was flying, he learnt from Sakesar that his adversary had slowed down to what appeared like landing speed. Hakimullah set up orbit over the area, wondering if a forced landing was in progress. Shortly thereafter, to his utter surprise, he picked contact with a Gnat taxiing down the disused Pasrur airstrip near Sialkot.

The Official PAF HIstory mentions the same - but in a sneaky way fails to mention that the Starfighter was not in contact with the Gnat - giving the impression that Hakimullah was in contact with the Gnat during the whole incident.

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airf ... /gnat.html (This is what fricker wrote and reproduced in many books incl the official PaF history)

Sakesar had scrambled another F-104 to the scene, Flown by Flight Lieutenant Hakimullah, it arrived in time to take part, together with the other F-104, in forcing down a Gnat which had strayed from its main formation, and had to contend with 2 F-104s at uncomfortably close quarters. Finding himself over an abandoned airfield (Pasrur), Squadron Leader Brij Pal Singh Sikand seeing no other way out of his predicament, immediately landed his Gnat to save his skin. F/L Hakimullah circled overhead until the capture of the aircraft and the pilot was assured by Pakistani troops.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 18 Apr 2010 18:07

New one from KT's blog

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/201 ... 1-war.html

Air Support in Shakargarh 1971

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 18 Apr 2010 21:33

do we have any PAF aircrafts as war trophies?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Apr 2010 21:42

captured some in '71 but gave them to BAF.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 19 Apr 2010 00:03

Rahul M wrote:captured some in '71 but gave them to BAF.

the deal was that all equipment captured belonged to the new country. they kept em. That stil didnt stop the odd war trophy making it to india. the two AA Guns in Palam are one,as are the various vehicles on display.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 19 Apr 2010 00:57

Aditya G wrote:

Probably this is the sight.. that factored most in the Indian Navy going for the Barak deal in the 90's..
With a decent probability of a handful of ROSE upg Mirages carrying the deadly Exocet, being able to sneak through the Air Defences of the Indian Fleet operating in the waters of the Arabian Sea, the repetition of an operation like the famous rout of Karachi Harbor & Pak navy back in '71 by Styx armed OSA class boats, became a tough call..

Can any of the gurus plz tell when did the Pak Navy/PAF start receiving the deadly Stand-0ff weapon that is the Exocet missile ??

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 19 Apr 2010 19:29

Mig 21 variants still continue in service in large numbers. WHy has the IAF phased out MIG 23 and 27, which were more contemporary than the Mig 21? As I understand, all were suited for fighter - interceptor and ground attack roles.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 23 Apr 2010 19:39

Aditya G wrote:Thus the unit achieved the feat of landing the first ever-tracked vehicles at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO).

BMP-2? Thats the only tracked vehicle in our inventory thats light enough

arun wrote:X Posted. Article larded with some interesting bits of trivia about MI - 26 helicopter operations in the IAF:

IAF MI-26 attains 100% serviceability status

Punjab Newsline Network
Friday, 15 January 2010

CHANDIGARH: <snip> .... While doing so it has achieved the sole distinction of landing a MI–26 at Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) and other high altitude airfields carrying wheeled vehicles, field guns (Medium), Heavy – duty generators, mobile Satcom stations and Bulldozers. <snip>

Bulldozers are tracked and I guess lighter than BMP

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 May 2010 05:13

Some random images gathering dust now brought to life...

A rare image of the Su-7 in IAF colors carrying full payloads:

IAF Vampires in formation in late fifties:

Gnat on finall approach:

Gnats in formation:

A Mig-21FL...

-Vivek Ahuja

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 16 May 2010 08:58

Nice - the Cobras MiG-21 is a find.. never seen it before.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 16 May 2010 18:32

Another Close Air Support article from Kaiser. This one is about Chamb Sector.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/201 ... 1-war.html

I sense a book in the making

Additionally, The war at Halwara is still in its second day at Air Cmde TK Sen's blog

http://tkstales.wordpress.com/tag/halwara-1971/ (in Eight parts)

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 22 May 2010 10:40

Jagan wrote:I sense a book in the making

Uh huh. Can I throw the above quote back to you?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Jun 2010 07:45

Honorary Commissions in the Indian Air Force

http://www.stratpost.com/blog-honorary- ... in-the-iaf

1. His Highness, Raja Yashwant Rao Patangshah Vikramshah Mukane, Raja of Jawhar
2. Former Royal Air Force (RAF) officer Rup Chand, conferred the honorary rank of Wing Commander
3. His Highness, Raj Tajeshwar Maharaja Manwant Singh, Maharaja of Jodhpur, conferred the honorary rank of Group Captain
4. J Beaumont, OBE, AFC of the Royal Indian Air Force (RIAF), conferred the honorary rank of Group Captain on February 25, 1950.
5. Sir Thomas Elmhirst, KBE, CB, AFC of the RAF, conferred the honorary rank of Air Marshal
6. His Highness, Sikander Daulat Iftikhar-ul-Mulk Nawab Muhammed Hamidullah Khan Bahadur, Nawab of Bhopal, conferred the honorary rank of Air Vice Marshal
7. His Highness, Sir Pratap Chandra Bhanja Deo, GCIE, Maharaja of Mayurbhanj, conferred the honorary rank of Flight Lieutenant on January 18, 1951.
8. GE Gibbs, GIE, KBE, CBE, MC of the RAF, conferred the honorary rank of Air Marshal on April 11, 1954.
9. Maharaja Umaid Singh, Maharaja of Jodhpur, conferred the honorary rank of Air Vice Marshal on an unknown date.
10. Raja Brajendra Chandra Singh Deo Birhar Bajradhar Narendra Mahapatra, Raja of Ranpur,
11. NR Batra, about whom there is no information,
12. AS Sandhu, Public Relations Officer
13. SK Kulkarni, Public Relations Officer
14. C Ramni Public Relations Officer
15. SD Jadeja, Maharaja of Jamnagar
16. JRD Tata,
17. HS Malik
18. Yadu Nandan Chaturvedi, Public Relations Officer
19. Abhai Deo, Public Relations Officer
20. Sardar Surjit Singh Majithia, Maharaja of Patiala
21. Vijaipat Singhania
22. Sachin Tendulkar
Copyright © 2010 Saurabh Joshi.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 14 Jul 2010 13:10

Warbird pictures - a MiG-23 in Pune

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 15 Jul 2010 18:30

rajatmisra wrote:Mig 21 variants still continue in service in large numbers. WHy has the IAF phased out MIG 23 and 27, which were more contemporary than the Mig 21? As I understand, all were suited for fighter - interceptor and ground attack roles.

First of all Mig-27 has yet to get phased out from active service, although older models have been phased out as with older models of Mig-21. And major reason for keeping Mig-21 in service is because of our budget which often restrict IAF to find relative substitute to this Intercepter. On the top of that we have had its production till 1985 and hence whatever Mig-21s you see are much latest model then even Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and Jaguar in IAF fleet. Mig-21 is much more versatile in its nearest cousin's as you have mentioned.

Yes, one of the biggest reason I forgotten to tell is huge Delay in the arrival of Tejas which hoped to replace entire Mig-21 fleet.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2010 19:30

The following news item brought a smile to my face.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=13195

Women rebuilt Bhuj airstrip destroyed in '71 Pak attack
BHUJ: The nightmare of a squadron of Sabre Jets dropping napalm bombs on Bhuj, leaving behind a trail of destruction, is etched forever in the memory of Hiru Bhudia, 60. Bhudia was among 300 women from Madhapar who were entrusted with the task of reconstructing destroyed Indian Air Force air strip in Bhuj, in what may be termed as India's answer to 'Pearl Harbour'.

"The air strip in Bhuj was completely devastated by Pakistani bombers that dropped 14 nepalm (sic) bombs on the night of December 8, 1971.

Actually Bhuj was an unused decoy air base that was sued as a trap for Paki jets that finally led to the shooting down of an F-104 by a Mig-21

The story appeared in Vayu.

Here are the pages as a pdf (8 mb)
http://rapidshare.com/files/409373561/p ... n.pdf.html

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 15 Aug 2010 07:12

from a recent library acquisition

In Nov 1980, a MiG-21FL of No.47 Squadron, operating from Chabua successfully intercepted a Chinese Illyusin 18 aircraft that strayed into Indian Territory. The aircraft was let go but not before it was photographed by the pilot, Wg Cdr M S Vasudeva, who was the CO of the Squadron at that time

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 15 Aug 2010 12:07

Thanks Jagan for such a priceless finding. It would highly interesting to see for what purpose the Aircraft was let go even it has sufficiently violated our airspace. May be some more finding and research as well as declassifying of secret documents will reveal true picture.