The IAF History Thread

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Nov 2011 18:49

even a line drawing animator...

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 22 Nov 2011 18:57

RB has some drawing and diorama experience.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2011 19:40

Folks - this is my interpretation of rajanb's exciting account of witnessing a Sabre kill in 1965
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVRnQnpZwM

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 10 Dec 2011 21:47

Nicely done shivgaru.

I remember that Cooke's Gun Camera film is shown in "Salt of the Earth" (though not exactly afzal khan';s sabre, possibly the second or the third one). This was there in one of your videos - I think that shows V K Neb's kill or the Boyra Kills. cant find that right now..

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 10 Dec 2011 21:51

Jagan wrote:Nicely done shivgaru.

I remember that Cooke's Gun Camera film is shown in "Salt of the Earth" (though not exactly afzal khan';s sabre, possibly the second or the third one). This was there in one of your videos - I think that shows V K Neb's kill or the Boyra Kills. cant find that right now..


Thanks Jagan. I think Rajan brings out the excitement that a young man would have felt (rather than the anxieties of an old fogey) - but the entire narrative was too long - more than 15 minutes if narrated slowly and in full and it is difficult to get that much footage.

I have the Neb video and the port wing looks great as it gets ripped - but decided against using it.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Surya » 10 Dec 2011 22:28

great job shiv

watching the hunter in flight brings back fond memories

it is still one of the most beautiful fighters

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Dec 2011 23:52

respect is due dr sahab

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 10 Dec 2011 23:57

great work saar ji, put it in BR twitter stream.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby suryag » 11 Dec 2011 04:37

Shiv saar nice set of emotions in your voice, how nice if we have a version peppered with Rajanji's/his friends expletives

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 09:37

suryag wrote:Shiv saar nice set of emotions in your voice, how nice if we have a version peppered with Rajanji's/his friends expletives

Actually I got a recording of rajan's voice, but the recording quality was not usable. I have more or less read out exactly what he typed (on a previous page of this thread) - but had to edit out passages to fit it with the visuals. The original recording I got was 14 minutes long and incomplete. My edited recording was 7 minutes, and I had to chop that further to 4.5 minutes.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Dec 2011 13:11

shiv wrote:
suryag wrote:Shiv saar nice set of emotions in your voice, how nice if we have a version peppered with Rajanji's/his friends expletives

Actually I got a recording of rajan's voice, but the recording quality was not usable. I have more or less read out exactly what he typed (on a previous page of this thread) - but had to edit out passages to fit it with the visuals. The original recording I got was 14 minutes long and incomplete. My edited recording was 7 minutes, and I had to chop that further to 4.5 minutes.

Great job!!! Posting it in Facebook

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 11 Dec 2011 13:28

Shrinivasan wrote:Great job!!! Posting it in Facebook

Please also post a link to rajan's original story which was inspiring to me
viewtopic.php?p=1191675#p1191675

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Dec 2011 15:05

Amazing use of narrative written and different clippings joined together, truly genius, I trembled with excitement watching this video, very grateful and thankful to you Shiv ji for producing this!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Dec 2011 05:58

Great work Hakeem Sahib!

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 12 Dec 2011 12:37


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2011 01:39

rajanb,
ACM PC Lal writes about the fight you witnessed in IIT Khragapur in his memoirs available in google books.


My Years with IAF by ACM PC Lal

See page 133.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 15 Dec 2011 04:43

What was the assessment of the Mystere aircraft, as it performed in two wars? How did it stack up against the Sabre/Starfighter/other Pak aircraft, and how did the pilots feel about it? Apologies if this has been covered in a previous post.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2011 04:53

Its a ground attack plane and did a great job. It shot down quite a few different PAk planes.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 15 Dec 2011 05:59

ramana wrote:rajanb,
ACM PC Lal writes about the fight you witnessed in IIT Khragapur in his memoirs available in google books.

See page 133.


Ramana, unfortunately he did not write much about the combat.. just a line or two. But it was good in a way as that generated our curiousity and ultimately led to the best chronicling of the aircombat that can be possible (by Samir)...

BTW yesterday was the 40th anniversary of the srinagar air battle in which N S Sekhon laid down his life.. read all about it on rediff

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/the-f ... 111213.htm

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2011 09:11

I just saw it as I was travelling. Shiv! Fantabulous! :D Thanks for adding this piece of history for others to watch and savour.

Suryag: If I had put the expletives in the written narrative, it would have had all your ears burning red. What with two agrarian punjabis giving vent and the other one a Gujarati and me with lingo that would make a florid East Ender brit go red in the face!

Thanks Jagan and Ramana.

BTW, ACM PC Lal's son was one year senior to me in college and a friend. My dad knew PC Lal well.

And Lt. Gen. J. S. Arora's son was in our class that year.

I am going to send it to the two other guys who were standing with me. And my class Yahoo Group.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby rajanb » 15 Dec 2011 10:04

Jagan wrote:
ramana wrote:rajanb,
ACM PC Lal writes about the fight you witnessed in IIT Khragapur in his memoirs available in google books.

See page 133.


Ramana, unfortunately he did not write much about the combat.. just a line or two. But it was good in a way as that generated our curiousity and ultimately led to the best chronicling of the aircombat that can be possible (by Samir)...

BTW yesterday was the 40th anniversary of the srinagar air battle in which N S Sekhon laid down his life.. read all about it on rediff

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/the-f ... 111213.htm


Jagan, Group Captain R S Sanadi was my landlord at the leased apartment I shifted into in my first days in Bangalore in 2001. He passed away soon after, due to prostrate cancer. He was the CO of Srinagar AFB, 1971.

His bro, Wing Commander Sanadi was my next door neighbour (plus drinking buddy) and had retired as a test pilot at HAL. This gentleman's wife, Geeta, was the daughter of the CO of Kalaikunda during the 1965 war! Now settled in Pune.

For me, life is definitely interwoven with many a fine braveheart from all the three services, making it richer and more satisfying.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2011 20:19

rajanb wrote:
His bro, Wing Commander Sanadi was my next door neighbour (plus drinking buddy) and had retired as a test pilot at HAL. This gentleman's wife, Geeta, was the daughter of the CO of Kalaikunda during the 1965 war! Now settled in Pune.
.


That would have been Kishore Sanadi? A good friend of my cousin Kukke Suresh. Met him and sat drinking coke at the Trinity mess as a boy when they drank something else.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby rajanb » 16 Dec 2011 10:39

shiv wrote:
rajanb wrote:
His bro, Wing Commander Sanadi was my next door neighbour (plus drinking buddy) and had retired as a test pilot at HAL. This gentleman's wife, Geeta, was the daughter of the CO of Kalaikunda during the 1965 war! Now settled in Pune.
.


That would have been Kishore Sanadi? A good friend of my cousin Kukke Suresh. Met him and sat drinking coke at the Trinity mess as a boy when they drank something else.


Kishore Sanadi was the third of the Sanadi brothers and a civvy. He was assocaited with a/c and worked with HAL and then for Dunlop. He was also staying there on the ground floor of the same apartment complex.

The Wingco was P.S. Sanadi who was a Gnat fighter pilot and then the test pilot for Gnats which were manufactured/overhauled at HAL BLR.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2011 14:34

rajanb wrote:Kishore Sanadi was the third of the Sanadi brothers and a civvy. He was assocaited with a/c and worked with HAL and then for Dunlop.

Ah of course! Dunlop rings a bell.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby negi » 17 Dec 2011 10:21

Dunlop factory in Kolkata was at one time supposed to produce tires for TU-142M in IN service.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 26 Dec 2011 23:13

Another Old Tale : - Acting Like Santa

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 26 Dec 2011 23:40

fascinating story. if you don't mind me asking, in the long run what happened to pilots from that expansion drive ? how did it impact IAF ?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Jagan » 26 Dec 2011 23:42

Would love to know more about this young pilot - who was he? Wht hapened to him?

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 27 Dec 2011 12:23

Rahul M wrote:fascinating story. if you don't mind me asking, in the long run what happened to pilots from that expansion drive ? how did it impact IAF ?


I find Rahul's question difficult to answer in a few words. The number of pilots pushed through the system was huge. Performances varied tremendously. Some were very good, some run of the mill and some riff-raff.

One has to remember that after 62 there was a patriotic upsurge which brought in many youngsters into the services who would have other wise been take-up by the civil sector. Many of these boys did very well. The rate of induction being high, training standards went down. Initial operational training in the years 64-65 was rather poor for a variety of reasons. 1965 war was fought somewhat non professionally at the higher level. It was however a good grinding stone that created hard-nosed mid level leaders who saw the air force through for the next decade.

The mass entrants faced bleak prospects of promotion in the late 70s. There was a huge lateral outflow. The newly introduced deep selection methods created new problems of morale and motivation. Fortunately, the IAF seems to have weathered all this rather well and seems to be well on route to a bright future.


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Jan 2012 02:54

The IAF search for DPSA was really started after the Pak crackdown on East Pakistan per ACM PC Lal's "My Years with IAF" page 181.

LINK

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 09 Jan 2012 21:08


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 11 Jan 2012 22:00


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2012 10:18

Cross post from misc pictures
Indrajit wrote:Oops have'nt seen that before,I got it while googling and found it here....

http://gnat50years.in/category/operations

The facts in the article above find a mention in the memoirs of the Paki pilot "Nosey" Haider who led the Pathankot raid in 1965.

AM Raghavendran's article says:
So I went to the Station commander, Group Captain Roshan Suri, and asked him for permission to take up a four air craft Combat Air Patrol over the airfield at 5.30 PM. He said he would think about it. I kept going to him, phoning him or intercepting him when he visited the squadrons during the day. At first he said he would let me know. Then he said that the ORP aircraft were not to be touched and so I must get eight aircraft on the line before he could authorize it. I had only about ten aircraft available in Pathankot altogether at that time but managed to get eight serviceable and went back to him in the afternoon. He said he would let me know.


Nosey Haider says on page 136-137 of his book "Flight of the Falcon"
"I read in a recent article by the IAF Air Marshal Raghavendran, The Day the PAF Got Away that at that very moment, he as a Gnat Squadron Cmdr at Pathankot had been trying to convince his Base Commander. Group Captain Suri, to authorise a CAP before dusk! But God was guarding us Zambos as the dithering commander had refused to authorise the CAP, to save flying effort. Bless him for his obduracy"

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Abhibhushan » 17 Jan 2012 18:05


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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby shiv » 19 Jan 2012 07:46

How India brought down the US’ supersonic man
Yeager’s hatred for Indians was unconcealed. According to Ingraham, he spent the first hours of the war stalking the Indian embassy in Islamabad, spouting curses at Indians and assuring anyone who would listen that the Pakistani army would be in New Delhi within a week. It was the morning after the first Pakistani airstrike that Yeager began to take the war with India personally.

On the eve of their attack, the Pakistanis, realising the inevitability of a massive Indian retaliation, evacuated their planes from airfields close to the Indian border and moved them to airfields near the Iranian border.

Strangely, no one thought to warn General Yeager.

Taking aim at Yeager
The thread of this story now passes on to Admiral Arun Prakash. An aircraft carrier pilot in 1971, he was an Indian Navy lieutenant on deputation with the Indian Air Force when the war broke out.

In an article he wrote for Vayu Aerospace Review in 2007, Prakash presents a vivid account of his unexpected encounter with Yeager. As briefings for the first wave of retaliatory strikes on Pakistan were being conducted, Prakash had drawn a two-aircraft mission against the PAF base of Chaklala, located south east of Islamabad.

Flying in low under the radar, they climbed to 2000 feet as they neared the target. As Chaklala airfield came into view they scanned the runways for Pakistani fighters but were disappointed to see only two small planes. Dodging antiaircraft fire, Prakash blasted both to smithereens with 30mm cannon fire. One was Yeager’s Beechcraft and the other was a Twin Otter used by Canadian UN forces.

Fishing in troubled waters
When Yeager discovered his plane was smashed, he rushed to the US embassy in Islamabad and started yelling like a deranged maniac. His voice resounding through the embassy, he said the Indian pilot not only knew exactly what he was doing but had been specifically instructed by the Indian prime minister to blast Yeager’s plane. In his autobiography, he later said that it was the “Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger”.

Yeager pressured the US embassy in Pakistan into sending a top priority cable to Washington that described the incident as a “deliberate affront to the American nation and recommended immediate countermeasures”. Basically, a desperate and distracted Yeager was calling for the American bombing of India, something that President Richard Nixon and his Secretary of State Henry Kissinger were already mulling.

But, says Ingraham: “I don’t think we ever got an answer.” With the Russians on India’s side in the conflict, the American defence establishment had its hands full. Nobody had time for Yeager’s antics.

However, Ingraham says there are clues Yeager played an active role in the war. A Pakistani businessman, son of a senior general, told him “excitedly that Yeager had moved into the air force base at Peshawar and was personally directing the grateful Pakistanis in deploying their fighter squadrons against the Indians. Another swore he had seen Yeager emerge from a just-landed jet fighter at the Peshawar base.

Later, in his autobiography, Yeager, the subject of Tom Wolfe’s much-acclaimed book “The Right Stuff” and a Hollywood movie, wrote a lot of nasty things about Indians, including downright lies about the IAF’s performance. Among the things he wrote was the air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis “kicked the Indians’ ass”, scoring a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing 34 airplanes of their own.

Beyond the fog of war
The reality is that it took the IAF just over a week to achieve complete domination of the subcontinent’s skies. A measure of the IAF’s air supremacy was the million-man open air rallies held by the Indian prime minister in northern Indian cities, a week into the war. This couldn’t have been possible if Pakistani planes were still airborne.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby Raja Bose » 19 Jan 2012 08:58



Yeager is a perfect example of an uneducated boorish Khan redneck who thinks the world revolves around him - nothing new there. No wonder his best friend was another egomaniac called Jackie Cochran who could not live down her defeat in elections by a Sikh and once knowingly violated Turkish (or Armenian I forget) airspace believing that the air force of that country would let her go since she was "Jackie Cochran".

When Yeager discovered his plane was smashed, he rushed to the US embassy in Islamabad and started yelling like a deranged maniac. His voice resounding through the embassy, he said the Indian pilot not only knew exactly what he was doing but had been specifically instructed by the Indian prime minister to blast Yeager’s plane. In his autobiography, he later said that it was the “Indian way of giving Uncle Sam the finger”.


I doubt Indira Gandhi or even MoD Babus even knew who Yeager was and cared for his feat of flying faster than the sound of his farts.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby member_20067 » 19 Jan 2012 10:30

what an awesome read Rajanb... just curious.. was there a civil emergency drill or something when pakis came to KGP like a loud Siren..? It seems after the first wave you guys continued the 2 hour lab class.. as if nothing had happened.. in today's world twitter and FB would have exploded with eye witness accounts.. lolz.. also were there any directives on blackout during night raids..in the institute? I am not aware how a blackout is administered at a city or town level.. may be nearest sub-station pulls the switches off .. but what about candle.. etc..? were you guys instructed to paint your window black or cover it with black paper..? My dad used to be in Assam during 62 and he has some incredible tales about blackouts ..

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby ramana » 19 Jan 2012 11:33

Yeager also wrote in his biography that he interrogated captured IAF pilots who were respectful of his aura. However the language he used made me think he was unworthy of that aura.

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Re: The IAF History Thread

Postby rajanb » 19 Jan 2012 12:00

Prithwiraj wrote:what an awesome read Rajanb... just curious.. was there a civil emergency drill or something when pakis came to KGP like a loud Siren..? It seems after the first wave you guys continued the 2 hour lab class.. as if nothing had happened.. in today's world twitter and FB would have exploded with eye witness accounts.. lolz.. also were there any directives on blackout during night raids..in the institute? I am not aware how a blackout is administered at a city or town level.. may be nearest sub-station pulls the switches off .. but what about candle.. etc..? were you guys instructed to paint your window black or cover it with black paper..? My dad used to be in Assam during 62 and he has some incredible tales about blackouts ..


There were no sirens in those days. A couple of days later they were testing out the sirens. And missing a lab was like missing marks for two lab sessions. The lab report of the previous lab and then the lab report of the current one. Life was quite rigid in the environs of the IIT class buildings!

That very night we were supplied with black paper. And we had to keep all the doors closed. Next day trenches were dug. And a notice was circulated wherein the safety procedures were outlined. The next night Kalaikunda opened up with ack ack fire and all with red tracers. A beautiful sight. The hostel evacuated, but those of us who had witnessed the dogfight hung out in the balcony (habits die hard) and watched the awesome sight of Kalaikunda confirming their ack-ack range and cover of fire.

Two nights later we were informed of suspected paradrops by the PAF. So a roster was drawn up and we patrolled the hostel in pairs. I remember that on my watch, I went around with a hockey stick, whereas my partner went around with a polished and sharpened kirpan. He was a punjabi and not a sikh. He was holding it out in front of him and I asked him to keep it in the scabbard because if we turned a corner and ran into some late night smokers one of them might get accidentally impaled on it. :lol:

During the 1971 war, I was in Mumbai during the outbreak of hostilities. The friends I had in the IN, who were used to meeting us over weekends, playing bridge, drinking and having a good time had vanished for about a fortnight. Including a good friend who was a fighter pilot stationed at Lohegaon. We did feel something was amiss. The evening of the attack by the Pakis the roads were deserted by 19:30 hours. I had to walk from Nariman Pt. along Marine Drive, to my PG digs at Warden Road. While I was walking the naval Station at Worli opend fire. Tracers streaming thru the air. Taxis had covered their lights with black paper with just a small slit. Apartments along Marine Drive were blacked out. My two PG mates had already covered all the window panes with thick black poster paper.

A motorcycle cop was the only traffic I saw. He stopped and instructed me to get off the open causeway. I explained to him that none of the cabs were willing to take me and drop me home. He asked me to hop on, drove back to the nearest taxi stand and ordered the taxi driver to drop me off. Which the poor taxi driver did, after he had refused me once.

On reaching home, we all decided to drown a couple of drinks to celebrate our impending victory, had our dinner and decided to go to the 21:30 movie! My car had been returned from the service station. So with lights plastered. We drove off to the New Empire theatre. The sky was beautiful and full of stars. The starlight was good enough to navigate by. Tickets were available and to our surprise the cinema hall filled up! People were gung-ho. And freely chatting with strangers. Amongst those who were there was an acquaintance of mine ( a customer's employee). She, I found out later, was the niece of Field Marshal S.H.F.J. Manekshaw. I did chat with her in later days and we were fellow smokers.The movie, if memory serves me correctly was "The Party" starring Peter Sellers as a "Mr. Bakshi"

And life goes on..... Later when all had returned to base. We met up with our defence mates. Sat on the cramped deck of an OSA and drank to their success at hammering Karachi.


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