Kargil War Thread - VI

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 02 Jul 2018 18:32

If we believe the book, the objective was a salami slice invasion through ladakh. Not dislodging us from siachen by blocking nh1.

I was never convinced about the siachien story, however the invasion through ladakh is not entirely convincing enough. There is hardly any population in the ladakh region, how do they intend to sustain a insurgency?

There is more to this than what has been told.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Jul 2018 18:56

one of the objectives mentioned elsewhere was to strangle Ladakh and in particular make it difficult to sustain operations in Siachin. if they could have got the valley to rise up, then maybe even more stretch goals. if they could set up a permanent hold on the mountain tops, then NH1 was lost and with it Siachen

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 03 Jul 2018 01:34

Lalmohan wrote:one of the objectives mentioned elsewhere was to strangle Ladakh and in particular make it difficult to sustain operations in Siachin. if they could have got the valley to rise up, then maybe even more stretch goals. if they could set up a permanent hold on the mountain tops, then NH1 was lost and with it Siachen

Here is nh1.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/vt/data=x ... le=3&w=344

It is only around kargil, it is closer to the loc. Push comes to shove we could have build a alternative for the road under attack.

Moreover the roads are closed during winter due to snow, yet we are able to sustain siachien.closing Nh1 will not stop siachien.

Paks also intruded in to turtuk, where nh1 doesn't even pass.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby arun » 03 Jul 2018 11:23

VKumar wrote:The making of the Kargil disaster, a book " From Kargil to the coup, events that shook Pakistan " by Nasim Zehra, excerpts on dawn.com are a must read.



PDF of Nasim Zehra’s complete book “From Kargil To Coup : Events That Shook Pakistan is available on link in below X Posted post of Sudeep J:

sudeepj wrote:Link to Nasim Zehra's book. I am about 50 pages in and the whining about Indian perfidy is never ending. This is perhaps understandable since she was likely to get shot if she did not provide cover for herself by cursing at the wicked Indians. Yet to get to the juicier parts about the actual operation.

https://chagharzai.files.wordpress.com/ ... zehra1.pdf

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2018 11:34

nachiket wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Why? I dont think she will any key miltary details, she will just have justification for thier behavior.

Just read it. Quite a lot of juicy details in there. Especially about how much Nawaz Sharif and his ministers knew and their different reactions.

Truth be told it was a pretty good tactical move, only thing is the grit/capabilities the of Indian Army , Indian Airforce and Indian Navy in enforcing a blockade like situation on Karachi was shown to be far superior to its junk adversary. Also, if a different Indian political dispension was on top they might have agreed for a redrawn LOC rather than calling in the Airforce.

So now where was the operation doomed from the start.

How could it have been a good tactical move when they failed to anticipate what India's response would be? And failed to make any preparations to deal with it. The Air Force and Navy weren't even consulted. Same mentality as 1965 with deluded paki generals having dreams about bringing India to its knees. Didn't work then and it certainly was never going to work in 1999. The "tactical brilliance" nonsense was Musharraf's attempt to salvage his reputation after the whole thing blew up in his face.


If not for innovation used by the Indian Army and Airforce they could have succeeded in grabbing territory. They were also banking on their assets within India to agree for a ceasefire with loss of face. By grabbing those heights they were in a pretty good situation till they started losing Tololing and other peaks. IAF detection And destruction of the Mantho Dhalo camp was totally unexpected.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jul 2018 14:13

While it shares information from the Pakistani side, the narrative of history is selective - suppressing facts about Hindu majority Jammu and Buddhist majority Ladakh and the research is shoddy

For example, from page 38

India’s enhanced military strength, together with men especially trained in snow warfare at the North Pole

:rotfl:

Personally I feel flattered at this recognition of Indian training capabilities

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jul 2018 19:42

Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

On multiple occasions, the myth of Pakistan being in a winning position occupying territory is perpetrated with the US forcing a retreat. The Indian re-capture of Tololing and Tiger Hill is reluctantly mentioned - that fact of India recapturing Mushkoh Valley and other sectors is completely ignored. The fact that US agreement allowed Pakistan to save its H&D is completely ignored. Instead it is claimed Pakistan still occupied strategic points in July 1999.

It does expose Pakistani greed (of Nawaz Sharif seen as liberator of Kashmir) and perfidy (Musharaff claiming there is no military pressure on Pakistan as Sharif leaves for US and Sharif learning while in US that Tiger Hill has fallen).

Pakistan is an opportunist nation that does not believe in growth through hard work but rather through conquest and expropriation of other's efforts. No wonder it is a global pariah. They ignore food for their soldiers who have to survive on grass or mountain goats. Like Germany after WW1, they believe that their military won Kargil but civilian leaders like Navaz Sharif sold them to Washington.

Lastly, one needs to keep in mind India's War Plans for 1971 shared by Air Commodore T K Sen (Member Abhibhushan) on the need to deter Pakistan from military adventurism every 25 years (posted on his blog).

The time period of 25 years represents the time it takes for a new generation of military officers to rise to the top and carry out their misadventures forgetting lessons of the past. In the book, it mentions how advice of 1965 officers was ignored.

Musharraf being an opportunist hoped for gains but when it failed cut loose his soldiers and transferred the blame to Navaz.
Last edited by nachiket on 06 Jul 2018 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed Rank of IAF officer mentioned

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Rahul M » 03 Jul 2018 20:00

x-post

Rahul M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Link to Nasim Zehra's book. I am about 50 pages in and the whining about Indian perfidy is never ending. This is perhaps understandable since she was likely to get shot if she did not provide cover for herself by cursing at the wicked Indians. Yet to get to the juicier parts about the actual operation.

https://chagharzai.files.wordpress.com/ ... zehra1.pdf

going through the book, it is the first time I am hearing of Op. Koh-i-Paima. I thought the kargil misadvanture was called Op Badr by the TSP ?

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Vikas » 03 Jul 2018 20:02

I still stand by my opinion that ABV chickened out and sacrificed 100's of young men by not threatening to cross the LOC. It was complete lack of leadership by him at that hour just like he vacated the leadership mental during Kandhar Hijack crisis.
In the end, what did India achieve by not crossing the LOC or bombing Pakis to smithereens.
In 2 years, we had attack on Parl, Mushy the killer feted in Agra and terrorism by Islamist unabated.

Next time Pakis pull a threat like this, Just bomb all the Baharia and Defense towns in Bakistan without threatening them or asking them to surrender.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 04 Jul 2018 02:52

One major miscalculation just as in 1965 was the Indian politican cannot accept any loss of territory. Hence the reaction by LBS to cross the IB. This time Pak anticapated crossing the IB and alerted their four fathers.

In the Telegraph, K.P. Nayar wrote in 1999, that ABV did not want to cross the IB, as after the din is over the Pakis would still be holding on to Kargil heights, and after a ceasefire India would have lost the war despite winning the battle as Pakis would get to keep what is occupied in Kashmir.
Nevertheless 21 Corps was moved in open daylight for US to observe and pass on satellite pictures to Pal.

There was another fallback which did not get implemented.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Jul 2018 03:36

tsarkar wrote:Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jul 2018 10:19

ramana wrote:One major miscalculation just as in 1965 was the Indian politican cannot accept any loss of territory. Hence the reaction by LBS to cross the IB. This time Pak anticapated crossing the IB and alerted their four fathers.

In the Telegraph, K.P. Nayar wrote in 1999, that ABV did not want to cross the IB, as after the din is over the Pakis would still be holding on to Kargil heights, and after a ceasefire India would have lost the war despite winning the battle as Pakis would get to keep what is occupied in Kashmir.
Nevertheless 21 Corps was moved in open daylight for US to observe and pass on satellite pictures to Pal.

There was another fallback which did not get implemented.


Not crossing IB but not crossing LOC, again a tough option since we were caught with our pants down while Pakis had prepared and could walk into our side of LCO during Winter.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby sudeepj » 04 Jul 2018 12:13

tsarkar wrote:While it shares information from the Pakistani side, the narrative of history is selective - suppressing facts about Hindu majority Jammu and Buddhist majority Ladakh and the research is shoddy

For example, from page 38

India’s enhanced military strength, together with men especially trained in snow warfare at the North Pole

:rotfl:

Personally I feel flattered at this recognition of Indian training capabilities


Its a completely Pakistani narrative. I suppose there is value in that as far as it helps people in understanding that point of view.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 12:48

ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 13:09

sudeepj wrote:Its a completely Pakistani narrative. I suppose there is value in that as far as it helps people in understanding that point of view.

It highlights their national falsehoods that they were winning but something / someone else (US/Nawaz Sharif) took that away.
Also on failure, the FCNA commander begged to be spared "Allah ke Waastey".
And Musharraf's bravado and flip flops that is actually reflective of Pakistani Warrior Machismo
And how much Taqiya is ingrained in Islam & Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jul 2018 13:23

Thats why when I saw the Pakistani Author's name it cannot have some truth and should not be a must read. Miltarilty they had lost but Nasim Zehra's book will hardly admit that. We lost some lives in some the mines and booby traps Pakis put after the agreement of withdrawal. We could have killed many more Pakis but would may unnecessarily lost of a few our own valuable soldiers lives.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Jul 2018 13:41

tsarkar wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

I meant about revealing his identity, i.e., mapping of his BRF handle and his name. If he wanted he could have chosen the same name over here too. There was an earlier mention about this from admins too. Beyond this not for me to pursue.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Haridas » 05 Jul 2018 02:55

tsarkar wrote:Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

On multiple occasions, the myth of Pakistan being in a winning position occupying territory is perpetrated with the US forcing a retreat. The Indian re-capture of Tololing and Tiger Hill is reluctantly mentioned - that fact of India recapturing Mushkoh Valley and other sectors is completely ignored. The fact that US agreement allowed Pakistan to save its H&D is completely ignored. Instead it is claimed Pakistan still occupied strategic points in July 1999.

It does expose Pakistani greed (of Nawaz Sharif seen as liberator of Kashmir) and perfidy (Musharaff claiming there is no military pressure on Pakistan as Sharif leaves for US and Sharif learning while in US that Tiger Hill has fallen).

Pakistan is an opportunist nation that does not believe in growth through hard work but rather through conquest and expropriation of other's efforts. No wonder it is a global pariah. They ignore food for their soldiers who have to survive on grass or mountain goats. Like Germany after WW1, they believe that their military won Kargil but civilian leaders like Navaz Sharif sold them to Washington.

Lastly, one needs to keep in mind India's War Plans for 1971 shared by Group Captain T K Sen (Member xxxxxxx) on the need to deter Pakistan from military adventurism every 25 years (posted on his blog).


It is an insult to call a military officer by a rank lower than what he has earned by dint of his service to the nation. I had good fortune to meet and learn from Air Commodore TK Sen on his many visit to Cupertino/Saratoga, including few BR Bay Area meetings.

The pecking order in IAF in descending order, is as follows:
Air Chief Marshal < Air Marshal < Air Vice Marshal < Air Commodore < Group Captain < Wing Commander < Squadron Leader < Flight Lieutenant < Flying Officer

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Haridas » 05 Jul 2018 03:11

tsarkar wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

Kindly edit to give the honour due to a person who earned rank of Air-Commodore.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2018 09:51

Indeed a grievous mistake on my part in not referring by his last rank, Air Commodore. Unfortunately not able to edit my post. While newer posts have the edit option, older posts dont.

Needless to say, my respect for him and his service is as high as ever. His father and my grandfather were from the same place - Jessore. His father was a Doctor and my grandfather was the Railway Station Master. It was a very small and less populated world then.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2018 20:18

Tsarkar, I will edit them.

Ramana


You are no slow coach either.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Manish_P » 26 Jul 2018 10:21

Kargil Vijay Diwas. Shubh Diwas.

My humble respects and ever lasting gratitude to our Service folk, for their courage, tenacity and selfless sacrifices to defend the land of our Forefathers and our way of Life.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 03:01

The Air Marshal is truly a legend! The Air Force is in good hands with men like him. He retired today. Wish him all the best in his retirement innings!

Fortunate to have participated in Kargil mission: Air Marshal SRK Nair
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -nair.html

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 06:30

All the best to AM SRK Nair after a great career.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Aug 2018 21:30

If someone reads this new book on Kargil, please post here, looks to be informative and based on first hand accounts and reports. On my read list, did not find a kindle version.


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 10 Aug 2018 22:18

From this tweet:
https://twitter.com/SKSk785/status/1022716067964182528

More than 70% of our Kargil KIA were less than 22!

Kids, gave their youth for a thankless nation, in a place where you can hardly breath.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2018 02:28

I am re-reading Bill Clinton, Strobe Talbott, Jaswant Singh, Reidel, T.P. Sreenivasan accounts of Kargil.

Too bad Brajesh Mishra didn't write. Nor Subramanyam Swamy.
Putting all these together Kargil was result of stalemate of Talbott-Singh talks.


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