Kargil War Thread - VI

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 02 Jul 2018 18:32

If we believe the book, the objective was a salami slice invasion through ladakh. Not dislodging us from siachen by blocking nh1.

I was never convinced about the siachien story, however the invasion through ladakh is not entirely convincing enough. There is hardly any population in the ladakh region, how do they intend to sustain a insurgency?

There is more to this than what has been told.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Jul 2018 18:56

one of the objectives mentioned elsewhere was to strangle Ladakh and in particular make it difficult to sustain operations in Siachin. if they could have got the valley to rise up, then maybe even more stretch goals. if they could set up a permanent hold on the mountain tops, then NH1 was lost and with it Siachen

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 03 Jul 2018 01:34

Lalmohan wrote:one of the objectives mentioned elsewhere was to strangle Ladakh and in particular make it difficult to sustain operations in Siachin. if they could have got the valley to rise up, then maybe even more stretch goals. if they could set up a permanent hold on the mountain tops, then NH1 was lost and with it Siachen

Here is nh1.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/vt/data=x ... le=3&w=344

It is only around kargil, it is closer to the loc. Push comes to shove we could have build a alternative for the road under attack.

Moreover the roads are closed during winter due to snow, yet we are able to sustain siachien.closing Nh1 will not stop siachien.

Paks also intruded in to turtuk, where nh1 doesn't even pass.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby arun » 03 Jul 2018 11:23

VKumar wrote:The making of the Kargil disaster, a book " From Kargil to the coup, events that shook Pakistan " by Nasim Zehra, excerpts on dawn.com are a must read.



PDF of Nasim Zehra’s complete book “From Kargil To Coup : Events That Shook Pakistan is available on link in below X Posted post of Sudeep J:

sudeepj wrote:Link to Nasim Zehra's book. I am about 50 pages in and the whining about Indian perfidy is never ending. This is perhaps understandable since she was likely to get shot if she did not provide cover for herself by cursing at the wicked Indians. Yet to get to the juicier parts about the actual operation.

https://chagharzai.files.wordpress.com/ ... zehra1.pdf

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2018 11:34

nachiket wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Why? I dont think she will any key miltary details, she will just have justification for thier behavior.

Just read it. Quite a lot of juicy details in there. Especially about how much Nawaz Sharif and his ministers knew and their different reactions.

Truth be told it was a pretty good tactical move, only thing is the grit/capabilities the of Indian Army , Indian Airforce and Indian Navy in enforcing a blockade like situation on Karachi was shown to be far superior to its junk adversary. Also, if a different Indian political dispension was on top they might have agreed for a redrawn LOC rather than calling in the Airforce.

So now where was the operation doomed from the start.

How could it have been a good tactical move when they failed to anticipate what India's response would be? And failed to make any preparations to deal with it. The Air Force and Navy weren't even consulted. Same mentality as 1965 with deluded paki generals having dreams about bringing India to its knees. Didn't work then and it certainly was never going to work in 1999. The "tactical brilliance" nonsense was Musharraf's attempt to salvage his reputation after the whole thing blew up in his face.


If not for innovation used by the Indian Army and Airforce they could have succeeded in grabbing territory. They were also banking on their assets within India to agree for a ceasefire with loss of face. By grabbing those heights they were in a pretty good situation till they started losing Tololing and other peaks. IAF detection And destruction of the Mantho Dhalo camp was totally unexpected.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jul 2018 14:13

While it shares information from the Pakistani side, the narrative of history is selective - suppressing facts about Hindu majority Jammu and Buddhist majority Ladakh and the research is shoddy

For example, from page 38

India’s enhanced military strength, together with men especially trained in snow warfare at the North Pole

:rotfl:

Personally I feel flattered at this recognition of Indian training capabilities

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 03 Jul 2018 19:42

Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

On multiple occasions, the myth of Pakistan being in a winning position occupying territory is perpetrated with the US forcing a retreat. The Indian re-capture of Tololing and Tiger Hill is reluctantly mentioned - that fact of India recapturing Mushkoh Valley and other sectors is completely ignored. The fact that US agreement allowed Pakistan to save its H&D is completely ignored. Instead it is claimed Pakistan still occupied strategic points in July 1999.

It does expose Pakistani greed (of Nawaz Sharif seen as liberator of Kashmir) and perfidy (Musharaff claiming there is no military pressure on Pakistan as Sharif leaves for US and Sharif learning while in US that Tiger Hill has fallen).

Pakistan is an opportunist nation that does not believe in growth through hard work but rather through conquest and expropriation of other's efforts. No wonder it is a global pariah. They ignore food for their soldiers who have to survive on grass or mountain goats. Like Germany after WW1, they believe that their military won Kargil but civilian leaders like Navaz Sharif sold them to Washington.

Lastly, one needs to keep in mind India's War Plans for 1971 shared by Air Commodore T K Sen (Member Abhibhushan) on the need to deter Pakistan from military adventurism every 25 years (posted on his blog).

The time period of 25 years represents the time it takes for a new generation of military officers to rise to the top and carry out their misadventures forgetting lessons of the past. In the book, it mentions how advice of 1965 officers was ignored.

Musharraf being an opportunist hoped for gains but when it failed cut loose his soldiers and transferred the blame to Navaz.
Last edited by nachiket on 06 Jul 2018 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed Rank of IAF officer mentioned

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Rahul M » 03 Jul 2018 20:00

x-post

Rahul M wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Link to Nasim Zehra's book. I am about 50 pages in and the whining about Indian perfidy is never ending. This is perhaps understandable since she was likely to get shot if she did not provide cover for herself by cursing at the wicked Indians. Yet to get to the juicier parts about the actual operation.

https://chagharzai.files.wordpress.com/ ... zehra1.pdf

going through the book, it is the first time I am hearing of Op. Koh-i-Paima. I thought the kargil misadvanture was called Op Badr by the TSP ?

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Vikas » 03 Jul 2018 20:02

I still stand by my opinion that ABV chickened out and sacrificed 100's of young men by not threatening to cross the LOC. It was complete lack of leadership by him at that hour just like he vacated the leadership mental during Kandhar Hijack crisis.
In the end, what did India achieve by not crossing the LOC or bombing Pakis to smithereens.
In 2 years, we had attack on Parl, Mushy the killer feted in Agra and terrorism by Islamist unabated.

Next time Pakis pull a threat like this, Just bomb all the Baharia and Defense towns in Bakistan without threatening them or asking them to surrender.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 04 Jul 2018 02:52

One major miscalculation just as in 1965 was the Indian politican cannot accept any loss of territory. Hence the reaction by LBS to cross the IB. This time Pak anticapated crossing the IB and alerted their four fathers.

In the Telegraph, K.P. Nayar wrote in 1999, that ABV did not want to cross the IB, as after the din is over the Pakis would still be holding on to Kargil heights, and after a ceasefire India would have lost the war despite winning the battle as Pakis would get to keep what is occupied in Kashmir.
Nevertheless 21 Corps was moved in open daylight for US to observe and pass on satellite pictures to Pal.

There was another fallback which did not get implemented.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Jul 2018 03:36

tsarkar wrote:Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jul 2018 10:19

ramana wrote:One major miscalculation just as in 1965 was the Indian politican cannot accept any loss of territory. Hence the reaction by LBS to cross the IB. This time Pak anticapated crossing the IB and alerted their four fathers.

In the Telegraph, K.P. Nayar wrote in 1999, that ABV did not want to cross the IB, as after the din is over the Pakis would still be holding on to Kargil heights, and after a ceasefire India would have lost the war despite winning the battle as Pakis would get to keep what is occupied in Kashmir.
Nevertheless 21 Corps was moved in open daylight for US to observe and pass on satellite pictures to Pal.

There was another fallback which did not get implemented.


Not crossing IB but not crossing LOC, again a tough option since we were caught with our pants down while Pakis had prepared and could walk into our side of LCO during Winter.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby sudeepj » 04 Jul 2018 12:13

tsarkar wrote:While it shares information from the Pakistani side, the narrative of history is selective - suppressing facts about Hindu majority Jammu and Buddhist majority Ladakh and the research is shoddy

For example, from page 38

India’s enhanced military strength, together with men especially trained in snow warfare at the North Pole

:rotfl:

Personally I feel flattered at this recognition of Indian training capabilities


Its a completely Pakistani narrative. I suppose there is value in that as far as it helps people in understanding that point of view.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 12:48

ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2018 13:09

sudeepj wrote:Its a completely Pakistani narrative. I suppose there is value in that as far as it helps people in understanding that point of view.

It highlights their national falsehoods that they were winning but something / someone else (US/Nawaz Sharif) took that away.
Also on failure, the FCNA commander begged to be spared "Allah ke Waastey".
And Musharraf's bravado and flip flops that is actually reflective of Pakistani Warrior Machismo
And how much Taqiya is ingrained in Islam & Pakistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jul 2018 13:23

Thats why when I saw the Pakistani Author's name it cannot have some truth and should not be a must read. Miltarilty they had lost but Nasim Zehra's book will hardly admit that. We lost some lives in some the mines and booby traps Pakis put after the agreement of withdrawal. We could have killed many more Pakis but would may unnecessarily lost of a few our own valuable soldiers lives.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Jul 2018 13:41

tsarkar wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

I meant about revealing his identity, i.e., mapping of his BRF handle and his name. If he wanted he could have chosen the same name over here too. There was an earlier mention about this from admins too. Beyond this not for me to pursue.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Haridas » 05 Jul 2018 02:55

tsarkar wrote:Finished reading the book since I got the link in the morning. Many editorial disasters, including notes to editor published and paragraphs being repeated.

On multiple occasions, the myth of Pakistan being in a winning position occupying territory is perpetrated with the US forcing a retreat. The Indian re-capture of Tololing and Tiger Hill is reluctantly mentioned - that fact of India recapturing Mushkoh Valley and other sectors is completely ignored. The fact that US agreement allowed Pakistan to save its H&D is completely ignored. Instead it is claimed Pakistan still occupied strategic points in July 1999.

It does expose Pakistani greed (of Nawaz Sharif seen as liberator of Kashmir) and perfidy (Musharaff claiming there is no military pressure on Pakistan as Sharif leaves for US and Sharif learning while in US that Tiger Hill has fallen).

Pakistan is an opportunist nation that does not believe in growth through hard work but rather through conquest and expropriation of other's efforts. No wonder it is a global pariah. They ignore food for their soldiers who have to survive on grass or mountain goats. Like Germany after WW1, they believe that their military won Kargil but civilian leaders like Navaz Sharif sold them to Washington.

Lastly, one needs to keep in mind India's War Plans for 1971 shared by Group Captain T K Sen (Member xxxxxxx) on the need to deter Pakistan from military adventurism every 25 years (posted on his blog).


It is an insult to call a military officer by a rank lower than what he has earned by dint of his service to the nation. I had good fortune to meet and learn from Air Commodore TK Sen on his many visit to Cupertino/Saratoga, including few BR Bay Area meetings.

The pecking order in IAF in descending order, is as follows:
Air Chief Marshal < Air Marshal < Air Vice Marshal < Air Commodore < Group Captain < Wing Commander < Squadron Leader < Flight Lieutenant < Flying Officer

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Haridas » 05 Jul 2018 03:11

tsarkar wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Sir, May I request you to remove the personal information you are divulging

Group Captain Sen runs a very public blog from which the information has been quoted and has been interviewed by journalist Anantha Krishnan M on his blog as well.

Kindly edit to give the honour due to a person who earned rank of Air-Commodore.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2018 09:51

Indeed a grievous mistake on my part in not referring by his last rank, Air Commodore. Unfortunately not able to edit my post. While newer posts have the edit option, older posts dont.

Needless to say, my respect for him and his service is as high as ever. His father and my grandfather were from the same place - Jessore. His father was a Doctor and my grandfather was the Railway Station Master. It was a very small and less populated world then.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 05 Jul 2018 20:18

Tsarkar, I will edit them.

Ramana


You are no slow coach either.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Manish_P » 26 Jul 2018 10:21

Kargil Vijay Diwas. Shubh Diwas.

My humble respects and ever lasting gratitude to our Service folk, for their courage, tenacity and selfless sacrifices to defend the land of our Forefathers and our way of Life.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 03:01

The Air Marshal is truly a legend! The Air Force is in good hands with men like him. He retired today. Wish him all the best in his retirement innings!

Fortunate to have participated in Kargil mission: Air Marshal SRK Nair
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... -nair.html

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2018 06:30

All the best to AM SRK Nair after a great career.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Aug 2018 21:30

If someone reads this new book on Kargil, please post here, looks to be informative and based on first hand accounts and reports. On my read list, did not find a kindle version.


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 10 Aug 2018 22:18

From this tweet:
https://twitter.com/SKSk785/status/1022716067964182528

More than 70% of our Kargil KIA were less than 22!

Kids, gave their youth for a thankless nation, in a place where you can hardly breath.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2018 02:28

I am re-reading Bill Clinton, Strobe Talbott, Jaswant Singh, Reidel, T.P. Sreenivasan accounts of Kargil.

Too bad Brajesh Mishra didn't write. Nor Subramanyam Swamy.
Putting all these together Kargil was result of stalemate of Talbott-Singh talks.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 20 Aug 2018 01:29

Is there any material on which area did PA inflitrate first in Nov/Dec 98?

I am trying to find what was PA objective.

Here is a good discussion by Pak panel


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Aug 2018 16:43

I think PA first incursions were in Batalik sector, in the Muntho Dhalo area

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nam » 20 Aug 2018 17:18

Aditya_V wrote:I think PA first incursions were in Batalik sector, in the Muntho Dhalo area


Thanks. Was the intrusion in this areas first or it was the first area detected by us? Lt. Saurav Kalia was captured in the kargil area.

I am trying to find evidence to my theory, that the intrusion had no lofty objectives as forcing us from Siachien. Najam Sethi mentions that PA found posts that were empty and it captured them as it walked in.

Few question i have in my mind
1. The intrusion started in Oct/Nov/Dec 98. When Vajapjee came to Lahore, did Mushraff believe that we haven't found about it? Could it be that Musharaff believe that Vajapee knew about it and he came to negotiate? A reason for his not saluting?

2. If the objective was to interdict NH1, why did they wait until we found out? The artillery attacks started after our response began in May. For nearly 7 months, they just held the height.

3. How was PA confident of finding no opposition that it intruded till Tooling? This place literally overlooks NH1. If the ops were suppose to be secret, why come to a place where it was the easiest to get caught?

4. PA had factored in use of airpower, they had Stingers on peaks. So it is not like they hadn't prepared. They had 7 months to do it.

And the constant mention about only 4 people in PA knew about is nonsense. When 3-4 batallions move out, obviously the batallion commander, division commander would know about it. The supporting aviation assests and their commander would know where they are going.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Aug 2018 10:26

All makes sense, regarding the stingers, the Pakis were victims of their own propaganda
1) that they brought down the mightly Soviet Union, the piddly India air force could do nothing to them.
2) Fizzle ya is the all powerful air force with 100% fleet availability and invincible with Alam shooting 4 Hunters in 30 seconds. Even today PAF chief will never admit that the RD 33 engine is difficult to maintain or shortcomings in the JF-17, what % of parts are actually made in Pakistan, what weapons , what is it AOA etc.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby manjgu » 21 Aug 2018 12:12

q1) I dont think so. If IA had detected the intrusion there is no way ABV would have gone to NaPakistan. It would have finished ABV and BJP's political future.



q2) Those were the winter months..what was there to interdict?? there was no worthwhile military target on NH1. For 7 months they were consolidating their positions..u have to also remember that there side is also snow bound, glaciated and its not so easy to consolidate..bring in supplies during the winter months. The real movement of supplies, reinforcements would have started once the snow melted / reduced on their side.



q3) Its not a question of confidence. They kept on moving forward and were pleasantly surprised that they could come so close to the NH1. Well they also knew that eventually they will be found/caught but the idea is to be at the most advantageous position when the enemy ( IA) response came and be in a place from where they can really dominate NH1. They could also have calculated that once IA finds them in such a position India will sue for peace /talks and they will be in control of max territorty. Apparently the rule on LOC is 'if u capture something and sitting on it its yours' !!


q4) who said they had not prepared?? they were utilising all this while to reinforce their positions..whats the question/argument??

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby manjgu » 21 Aug 2018 12:21

4 people in PA knowing is more from a strategic objective point of view.. ( whatever it was in their minds). That this will give a fillip to insurgent activity in kashmir..cut of siachen .. force india into talks... bla bla... In a youtube , the ISI DG ( analysis) or whatever he was said that ... in a presentation to mushy he had argued that cutting off NH1 will not force IA out of Siachen. IA could still resupply Siachen albeit with more costs/dificulty. So i dont think Mushy also believed cutting of NH1 will force IA out of Siachen. I am of the opinion that Mushy wanted to use Kargil intrusion to force India out of siachen thru talks once they held all the intruded area. IA goes out of Siachen and PA goes out of Intruded areas. and Mushy would be part of PA folklore as their Hannibal !!

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby chetak » 21 Aug 2018 12:29

manjgu wrote:4 people in PA knowing is more from a strategic objective point of view.. ( whatever it was in their minds). That this will give a fillip to insurgent activity in kashmir..cut of siachen .. force india into talks... bla bla... In a youtube , the ISI DG ( analysis) or whatever he was said that ... in a presentation to mushy he had argued that cutting off NH1 will not force IA out of Siachen. IA could still resupply Siachen albeit with more costs/dificulty. So i dont think Mushy also believed cutting of NH1 will force IA out of Siachen. I am of the opinion that Mushy wanted to use Kargil intrusion to force India out of siachen thru talks once they held all the intruded area. IA goes out of Siachen and PA goes out of Intruded areas. and Mushy would be part of PA folklore as their Hannibal !!


Your analysis would be better served if you worked from the point of what the pakis wanted with siachen and more importantly, cui bono?? or "to whom is it a benefit?"

Why do we always forget the cheeni angle?? or would they not benefit most of all??

The PA has long been focussed on siachen, why?? They simply don't have the funds or the will or the capability to occupy the heights like India does.

So ask again, cui bono??

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby manjgu » 21 Aug 2018 12:46

Chetak... i believe its honour, shame which is driving PA just like their previous losses to India. How can the momins lose to the kufr?? I dont buy your argument that they dont have funds or the will or the capability to occupy the heights. They have been confronting us all along the LOC and they dont seem to be short on funds for PA... and i dont believe that they dont have the will ( they wanna occupy whole of India!! not only Siachen) .. or the capability. I will term it as underestimating ur enemy. On the chinese angle..maybe u have a point but then what were the chini doing till 1984 ( when we moved in) ??

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby chetak » 21 Aug 2018 13:04

manjgu wrote:Chetak... i believe its honour, shame which is driving PA just like their previous losses to India. How can the momins lose to the kufr?? I dont buy your argument that they dont have funds or the will or the capability to occupy the heights. They have been confronting us all along the LOC and they dont seem to be short on funds for PA... and i dont believe that they dont have the will ( they wanna occupy whole of India!! not only Siachen) .. or the capability. I will term it as underestimating ur enemy. On the chinese angle..maybe u have a point but then what were the chini doing till 1984 ( when we moved in) ??


the paki army lost the momins - kufr theme a long time ago.

They are getting their asses whooped by their own self created jehadis whom they trained and armed.

Reality has hit them hard, especially the reality of how the financial drain of the paki army has bled their country white and left it at the mercy of the arabs who can now bid and pick up some pieces of the PA on the cheap for degrading menial duties in the gulf.

The cheeni need us off the siachen heights. If we ever vacate, despite any and every agreement, the pakis will take over, reinforced by the hans. We will lose it forever.

Remember, the core BRI seed and idea much predates 1984 when the hans were completely blindsided by India's move into the siachen.

Maybe, unknown to us all, there is an actual strategic thought process in the MOD, after all??.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Aug 2018 13:07

+1, many times people underestimate the Paki threat. To secure India we need to eliminate this threat first.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby manjgu » 21 Aug 2018 13:15

chetak..PA has never been short of funds and never will be. You can believe that reality has hit them hard but I dont. They still live in their self made cuckoo land where victory over India is round the corner...just one more shove and kufr will fall. If reality had indeed hit them hard they would have slackened their terrorist activities..which has not happened either in Kashmir or Afghanistan. .... Well i am not arguing for IA to leave..we have it ..its ours..we keep it.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Aug 2018 13:22

If you read Pakis, reality will not hit 90% of them till thier nation is split again.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby chetak » 21 Aug 2018 13:44

manjgu wrote:chetak..PA has never been short of funds and never will be. You can believe that reality has hit them hard but I dont. They still live in their self made cuckoo land where victory over India is round the corner...just one more shove and kufr will fall. If reality had indeed hit them hard they would have slackened their terrorist activities..which has not happened either in Kashmir or Afghanistan. .... Well i am not arguing for IA to leave..we have it ..its ours..we keep it.



For the PA to be "never short of funds" they have to plunder the public exchequer, one way or the other.

or perhaps you think that the "never short of funds" moolah simply fell into their laps like manna from the heavens??

Reality has not only hit the paki army but also the paki people and an ever increasing number of aam ayeshas and abduls who are now beginning to see the truth and are increasingly asking why there are no schools for their kids, jobs for themselves and why the prices are so high, no??.

why else would bajwa be so desperately blathering on repeatedly about Indo pak trade and it's potential to touch 30 billion $$??

This "trade" is currently sitting at a measly 5 billion $$ and it's mostly via the gulf with the cream being syphoned off by the cunning arabs.
Last edited by chetak on 21 Aug 2018 13:51, edited 1 time in total.


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