Kargil War Thread - VI

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Postby RayC » 17 Nov 2006 14:06

Loose talk in Messes is not authentic as loose statement on a forum without proof.

What could the brass do to get anyone back when there is a war on?

Pakistan at the time would be just waiting to kowtow to India?

Even during the 1971 War, one General's son, was known to the Pakistan military brass, was captured during the Battle of Daruchian. He came back only after the War!

I sure want to know so that I can educate the brass to wake up.

In fact, do reply soon since I will be visiting Delhi and staying with the brass!

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 14:51

RayC wrote:Loose talk in Messes is not authentic as loose statement on a forum without proof.


Srinjoy's quote on a diary being kept in which tiwari recorded the torture of his fellow Indians is authentic.

RayC wrote:What could the brass do to get anyone back when there is a war on?

To begin with simple stuff really. Highlight the issue in all major news dailies and news channels both national as well as international. Talk about how Pakistan is a habitual offender of Geneva convention. Put them on the spotlight.

This is what airforce did and had they not done it Nachiketa would have met the same end.

After we recovered Kalia and other jawans why was the issue of geneva convention violation not highlighted?

And more importantly what is the sanctity of LOC or any line for that matter when one of my country men has been captured by the enemy on the other side of that line?

If we don't have the balls to cross into our own land which is illegally being occupied by Pakis, under the pretext of not crossing LOC, we should not join the army.

Infact I would have liked it if JATS and other regiments present would have taken the initiative in there own hands, crossed the LOC, searched Saurav and others, even if it meant a break in chain of command and a court martial.

This is how you instill fear in the heart of the enemy. You capture one of mine, I am coming after you with all my might and you better pray to your heavens to save your ass. Next time the enemy thinks ten times before he tries the same mis-adventure.


RayC wrote:Pakistan at the time would be just waiting to kowtow to India?


And should we care?


RayC wrote:Even during the 1971 War, one General's son, was known to the Pakistan military brass, was captured during the Battle of Daruchian. He came back only after the War!


Looks like we never learn.

RayC wrote:
I sure want to know so that I can educate the brass to wake up.

In fact, do reply soon since I will be visiting Delhi and staying with the brass!


I did answer some points. I will update this post a little later with more things that we should do.

If you do not mind me asking who are you and how are you planning on educating the brass?

Regards,

-Digvijay Pratap Singh Deora

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Postby saty » 17 Nov 2006 14:59

RayC Sir, I request and beg you not to reply to this Chap, after starting with general statements regarding all else exepct kshyatiyas were no men in India (in other threads) he is now making free ranging allegations of lack of courage against all and sundry.

Responding to trolls will just encourage them and force meaningful discussions to turn to akhara style topic.

Saty

PS> BRF should have a warning sign along with (Post a reply) :: "DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

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Postby saty » 17 Nov 2006 15:00

Admins suprising what folks get away with on BRF these days!! :eek:

Tut tut.

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 17:46

Digvijay wrote: After we recovered Kalia and other jawans why was the issue of geneva convention violation not highlighted?


Not highlighted? How did the issue come into public consciousness if it hadn't been highlighted? The brass certainly messed up in not informing Lt. Kalia's family, but the press had picked up the story and run with it.

If we don't have the balls to cross into our own land which is illegally being occupied by Pakis, under the pretext of not crossing LOC, we should not join the army.


True. And I don't think you did join the Army, so all's well that ends well. After all, chest-thumping on an open forum where membership is free, is soooo much easier!

Infact I would have liked it if JATS and other regiments present would have taken the initiative in there own hands, crossed the LOC, searched Saurav and others, even if it meant a break in chain of command and a court martial.


And I (and dare say even the majority of the forum members) would have liked it if you had the ability to talk sense or else the courtesy to shut the **** up, but alas, life isn't so kind to us all...

This is how you instill fear in the heart of the enemy.


No, this is how you make a mockery of yourself on a public forum.

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Postby Surya » 17 Nov 2006 18:10

It sounds like Deepan Gill

Such brilliance should not be allowed to languish, do we have a fidayeen squad somewhere where we can use his skills.

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 18:17

Digvijay wrote: Are you denying that Saurav Kalia was captured and tortured?


No.

Are you denying that our brass DID NOTHING to get him back?


Yes. If you are claiming that they did nothing, the burden of proof rests with you.

And remind us again why should we respect this brass ?


For one, they didn't magically become brass. They worked their way up the ranks. Their responsibility towards their institution and the nation is not something you can fathom unless you've lived that life. And I am willing to bet you have not, otherwise you wouldn't be jumping up and down all over the forum with your radical ideas on how to instill fear in the enemy by crossing the LoC and searching for a captured soldier and in the process disobey direct orders and risk being captured in much larger numbers. So, you need to respect anybody who has worn the olive green because, by definition, they are all your betters.

And read Srinjoy again.


No, it YOU who needs to read that book again. And you need to tell us WHERE in that book, Srinjoy claims that Nachiketa heard the screams of tortured Indian soldiers, since that was your advice to CPrakash a few posts ago.

So do not discount what has been written by Srinjoy as hearsay just because you do not like it.


I am only discounting your misrepresentation of what was written in the book.

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 19:13

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: After we recovered Kalia and other jawans why was the issue of geneva convention violation not highlighted?


Not highlighted? How did the issue come into public consciousness if it hadn't been highlighted? The brass certainly messed up in not informing Lt. Kalia's family, but the press had picked up the story and run with it.



You are clueless anoop to the point that you are actually lying. It is an enormous dis service to a fallen soldier where you are trying to defend the very people who let him and others down. Press did not get a whiff of it till the damage had already been done.

If we don't have the balls to cross into our own land which is illegally being occupied by Pakis, under the pretext of not crossing LOC, we should not join the army.


Anoop wrote:True. And I don't think you did join the Army, so all's well that ends well. After all, chest-thumping on an open forum where membership is free, is soooo much easier!


Yes I did not join the army but do not worry my clan has shed enough blood to defend this country from invaders of all kinds. But I am not sure about you though.

Infact I would have liked it if JATS and other regiments present would have taken the initiative in there own hands, crossed the LOC, searched Saurav and others, even if it meant a break in chain of command and a court martial.


Anoop wrote: And I (and dare say even the majority of the forum members) would have liked it if you had the ability to talk sense or else the courtesy to shut the **** up, but alas, life isn't so kind to us all...


Looks like I pressed a raw nerve! Anoop Bete it is far too easy to be abusive sitting behind the comfort of a PC. Any way I will not stoop to your level.

This is how you instill fear in the heart of the enemy.


Anoop wrote: No, this is how you make a mockery of yourself on a public forum.


No. Mockery was made of India when our soldiers were tortured and killed and we sat there like morons doing nothing. If you cannot digest this start wearing some bangles from tomorrow.

-Digvijay

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 19:21

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: Are you denying that Saurav Kalia was captured and tortured?


No.

Are you denying that our brass DID NOTHING to get him back?


Yes. If you are claiming that they did nothing, the burden of proof rests with you.

And remind us again why should we respect this brass ?


For one, they didn't magically become brass. They worked their way up the ranks. Their responsibility towards their institution and the nation is not something you can fathom unless you've lived that life. And I am willing to bet you have not, otherwise you wouldn't be jumping up and down all over the forum with your radical ideas on how to instill fear in the enemy by crossing the LoC and searching for a captured soldier and in the process disobey direct orders and risk being captured in much larger numbers. So, you need to respect anybody who has worn the olive green because, by definition, they are all your betters.

And read Srinjoy again.


No, it YOU who needs to read that book again. And you need to tell us WHERE in that book, Srinjoy claims that Nachiketa heard the screams of tortured Indian soldiers, since that was your advice to CPrakash a few posts ago.

So do not discount what has been written by Srinjoy as hearsay just because you do not like it.


I am only discounting your misrepresentation of what was written in the book.


Apeshit Anoop. It is just idiots like you who unfortunately kissed there way up the army food chain to become generals.

Here is what Dr. NK Kalia(father of Saurav) wrote to the president of India:

"I believe the news was kept secret from the media in India. Had the government and media intervened about the safety of these soldiers as in the case of Flt. Lieut. Nachiketa they could have been saved. "

Now ofcourse the entire world is wrong and Anoop is the only one correct.

-Digvijay

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Postby Surya » 17 Nov 2006 19:28

"My Clan" Here we go again about the great warrior castes.


Hmm - yes your clan sacrificed a lot but like you they went and fought to the death - letting the invaders win.

On the other hand someone like Shivaji was smarter, as he retreated when required and kept harrying and hounding.

Sometimes warriors can be brave but foolish and beaten by evil and cunning villians. History and OUR history is full of that.

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Postby JCage » 17 Nov 2006 19:48

Out of respect for Ramana, I didnt say anything so far, and I daresay most members on this forum have been extraordinarily patient with you.

But you really take the cake.

Your clan apart, what have you done?

So you are basically strutting around on the forum based on the achievements of your "clan"?

ROTFL, then every fellow on this forum can claim some relation, some direct blood relative or clan or the like that should automatically grant him "respect".

Anoop asked you for the evidence about your screams business. Provide it.

Secondly,

"Apeshit Anoop. It is just idiots like you who unfortunately kissed there way up the army food chain to become generals. "


So let us get this straight. Generals are not be to trusted and Anoop is to be abused for looking through your bombast, but you of course are better and know more than either because of your clan?

And you feel that you deserve to be taken seriously?

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Postby CPrakash » 17 Nov 2006 20:01

I am still waiting to hear where the 'Nachiketa heard screams of Kalia' came from.

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Postby Jagan » 17 Nov 2006 20:13

Digvijay,

Check your email.

Jagan

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Postby Harry » 17 Nov 2006 22:01

Anoop wrote:
Harry wrote:Nachiketa had already written about how the Pakis treat their POWS. Who else could he have been referring to?


I don't know - maybe himself?? What I do know is that the book "Despatches from Kargil" by Srinjoy Chowdhury, does not mention that Nachiketa heard any screams.


He mentioned that he did'nt want to get into the specifics in order to not disturb "Mothers and Sisters". If he himself had undergone such treatment, he would have not come back in one piece. Pg.98 does mention Nachiketa hearing the screams of Saurabh Kalia and his five men, but the information is second or third hand.

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Postby fanne » 17 Nov 2006 22:15

I am surprised at the hostility that Digvijay is facing. I don't endorse his views, I don't approve it (but I don't know if he is wrong or not, you see I am not all knowing). He has been polite and within the parameters of discussion. Can we allow him to discuss without being hostile to him.
Having said that, I endorse the view that Mr. Rayc should not get into this discussion for a simple reason, Mr. RayC is a known quantity and a respectable one at that, by getting into discussion with an anonymous person on a divisive issue would only sully that reputation.

I find many things quite deplorable in BR, but I do not see even half the hostility that Digvijay faces (remember at the end of the day he is playing from our side) towards those issues or posters. How about challenging posters that say that old level of economic growth was Hindu and new one is secular. It is down right derogatory towards a particular faith (apart from being wrong, I would argue that earlier growth was secular and socialist, new one is more akin to Hindu entrepreneurship that had made India the richest country in 95% time of known history).
So let's chill out and stope this secular intellectual jihadism. We can tolerate some difference of view, can’t we?
thanks,
fanne

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Postby JCage » 17 Nov 2006 22:40

What are you talking about?

It has nothing to do with religion or secular or anti-secular or the like. The man has a bee up his bonnet about his clan, and has pretty much made it clear that as far as he is concerned, only his clan (and some other suitably adorned martial races) opposed the islamists etc & he couldnt give a damn about the rest. Seeing this poetry in motion, I can well imagine why these different clans of warriors couldnt cooperate worth a damn, each was probably telling the other he was better. He has wrecked an Indian Army history thread already by pursuing this divisive line of hectoring. It was in the trash can till the admins restored it.

Then he proceeds with his one-two line rejoinders to simple questions, and when asked to back up his claims resorts to abuse and invective. Playing macho, tough talk, and terse rejoinders since one comes from a "clan of warriors" - I mean seriously, what do you expect us to do, cheer him on?

I am sure he can contribute positively to BR, but seriously he needs to lurk some and lose the chip on his shoulder.

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Postby Surya » 17 Nov 2006 22:53

fanne

You mean apeshit and liar etc etc are non hostile words.

1. Many of us have agonised over what happened to Kalia. My desktop background image is Kalia - not a fancy SU 30. The reason - a reminder to everyone who comes to my desk and asks me who it is.

2. Nachi was also brutalised. But somehow he got out unlike the unfortunate Ahuja.

3. It is not like the Army officers deliberately keep people misinformed. Remeber the first 2 weeks were confusing. By then it was too late for these brave men.

4. Some revenge was exacted - but that is not enough. It is not enough - will never be enough - but we wil have to wait and hope for a day - not do a last charge

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 23:24

Digvijay wrote: You are clueless anoop to the point that you are actually lying.


Hmm, let's take a vote here on the forum. Who thinks I am lying? And lying bout what, btw? I clearly stated that the brass erred in NOT informing the family first. Can you PROVE that it was deliberate and not an oversight in the heat of the action when the extent of the intrusion was becoming obvious and causing a lot of political heat?

Who else thinks Digvijay is clueless? He wants soldiers to disobey orders and instead swan off in search of their captured comrade to show they "have balls". So let's see how far up this dereliction of duty has to go in order to be "successful" per Digvijay's standards. So now the battalion(s) are not fighting their battle in evicting Pakistanis, it is crossing the LoC. Ok, crossing where and how, when the approaches have been blocked, in what strength, with what artillery support, with what logistical back-up, for how long and where do they begin and end searching for Kalia? All the way to Skardu? And what would this achieve in the best-case scenario? Care to share your assessment?

It is an enormous dis service to a fallen soldier where you are trying to defend the very people who let him and others down.


It is an enormous disservice to an entire institution to insinuate that you, who have no record of service in uniform except the reflected glory of your clansmen, know how to fight a war and protect your troops. You are nothing but a blowhard and a cad.

Yes I did not join the army but do not worry my clan has shed enough blood to defend this country from invaders of all kinds. But I am not sure about you though.


Let’s see. I have the courtesy not to spread rumors about servicemen on an open forum based on hearsay. I have the ability to quote correctly from a book and not misrepresent it to support my distorted view. I have the humility to listen to people who have served in uniform.

Oh, I forgot. I have relatives and friends serving in the Indian Armed Forces (all three wings) now, as we speak.

Which is more than I can say about you.

Anoop Bete it is far too easy to be abusive sitting behind the comfort of a PC. Any way I will not stoop to your level.


True, sweetheart. Now, if you’ll just take your own advice :D. Climb to my level, is more like it, from where you are now.

If you cannot digest this start wearing some bangles from tomorrow.


Looks like you speak from satisfaction borne of the personal experience of wearing them. Well, it takes all kinds, and I can tolerate cross-dressers too, provided they have a clue of what they’re talking about. That rules you out.
Last edited by Anoop on 17 Nov 2006 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2006 23:25

Surya My beef with JCage was about point 4. IA does not exact any revenge. There are only the vagaries/fortunes of war.

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 23:26

Harry wrote: Pg.98 does mention Nachiketa hearing the screams of Saurabh Kalia and his five men, but the information is second or third hand.


If it's page 98 of the book "Despatches from Kargil" by Srinjoy Choudhury, then it is not Nachiketa who is being referred to. The person in question is the Major who relates the story to the author. That person did not hear anything, it was his conscience at not saving Lt. Kalia.

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Postby JCage » 17 Nov 2006 23:35

This was posted elsewhere by someone in the know:

We wiped out the battalion (5 NLI) that captured him along with their SSG element, we obliterated half of their brigade HQ including the brigade commander (he must have given the orders for Kalia to be killed). What more....

Kalia was actually killed by the SSG, and such acts don't bring glory. It is to be noted that after the Kargil war, 1 SSG was castigated for their poor performance.


Like Ramana said, the vagaries of war. And some semblance of justice for those six men.
Last edited by JCage on 17 Nov 2006 23:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 23:37

Digvijay wrote: Apeshit Anoop. It is just idiots like you who unfortunately kissed there way up the army food chain to become generals.


Thankfully, the "idiots" who made their way up the Army food chain to become Generals are infinitely more qualified than I am. The English language lacks adequate comparators when talking about them and you in the same breath.

"I believe the news was kept secret from the media in India. Had the government and media intervened about the safety of these soldiers as in the case of Flt. Lieut. Nachiketa they could have been saved"

Now ofcourse the entire world is wrong and Anoop is the only one correct.


No, it's just you who remains clueless. What we have here is Dr. Kalia's perception. And it is completely understandable; after all it is his son who died.

Now, where do YOU come off, twisting his accusation into veritable proof of deliberate wrong-doing on an open forum?

You are now a marked entity on this forum. Fall in line with established norms of conduct - that includes being careful in your choice of words when making accusations - or you will be made to leave.

I don't have to come from a martial clan for you to take this warning seriously.

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Postby Digvijay » 18 Nov 2006 00:00

Surya wrote:"My Clan" Here we go again about the great warrior castes.


Hmm - yes your clan sacrificed a lot but like you they went and fought to the death - letting the invaders win.

On the other hand someone like Shivaji was smarter, as he retreated when required and kept harrying and hounding.

Sometimes warriors can be brave but foolish and beaten by evil and cunning villians. History and OUR history is full of that.


Surya,

Unfortunately for India what you are repeating here is what Marxist historians of India want us to believe. Let me ask you a question and you can reply to me on my email address, as BR usually discourages discussion on medieveal history, why is it that in India more then 85% of population is still Hindu? Why is it that Iran got converted within a couple of years but not INdia? Please no sufi / saint conversion junk.

-Digvijay

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Postby Digvijay » 18 Nov 2006 00:12

All,
To say it is Saurav's father's perception is just a travesty. How can one be so illogical? We have two cases in front of us: Air Force and Army. Air Force handled it one way and suceeded. Army did'nt and failed. Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that army's handling was incorrect?

Unless we have the courage to analyse our own mistakes and acknowledge them we will be repeating the same mistakes again. We know about similar situations in 1971 too.

So if someone has read Malik's book: Does he touch upon this topic at all? If so what does he say.

Also on Page 98 in Srinjoy's book the reference of keeping a diary is clearly of Nachiketa. How Srinjoy got the information, as in whose narration he has jotted down, is largely irrelevant because it is correct.

Now to the audience, I was asked to provide a reference and I did provide it. Now can any one of you refute what has been provided with another reference? Trying to kill the source of Srinjoy's book, whether he was one eyed major or three armed colonel is not too relevant.

-Digvijay
Last edited by Digvijay on 18 Nov 2006 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Surya » 18 Nov 2006 00:18

Ramana

no disagreements.


The right way would be to humiliate the sick excuses for a human being by bringing them to a public trial.

However we will have to wait for better days

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Postby Surya » 18 Nov 2006 00:34

Digvijay

the Hindu percentage thingy is beyond the scope of this forum -

Please lets not go into this "if you do not agree with me you are a marxist jhollawallah theory".

There are no absolutes ( guess which philosophy allows for this).

I have always admired the bravery of our frontier states of oldbut not their brains.

Yes it is nice to read " the fort doors were thrown open and the warriors road to their last fight ". Waste - utter waste.

You have to take the time to understand what Shivaji did to see that if the Rajputs and others had used such tactics they would have won a lot more.

Take the time - read the differences in how Shivaji's MArathas tackled the invaders, take a look at the forts, the selection of location - it is brilliant military strategy- which is what is needed - not just bravery

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Postby CPrakash » 18 Nov 2006 00:39

Digvijay wrote: Air Force and Army. Air Force handled it one way and suceeded. Army did'nt and failed. Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that army's handling was incorrect?


There are a couple of things that I would like to point out. I had followed the Kargil war quite closely - and so did many of the members here. When was the first time we heard about Kalia and his soldiers? That they were missing from a patrol. There was absolutely no information that they were POWs. Did the pakistanis announce on radio or tv that they had captured these guys ? No.

The army *might* have known thru radio intercepts and all (but who can confirm it?) - even if they did figure out thru intel what do you expect them to do - send a SF Force to skardu with a higher probability of failure?

Even if you hear so-and-so is a POW, you are expected to make a note of it and then wait for the war to end. Not mount rescue missions 100s of miles into enemy territory

Nachiketa survived because his captured was announced and showed on TV. once it was a public fact, even if the IAF had completely forgotten about him, he would still have come back.

Just go to the Tribune Archives - all the reports this this this this only mentioned they were missing - where exactly did this canard that their capture was announced on pak radio/tv come from?

Added Later: Okay there are references about the radio skardu annoucement of Lt V K Kalia (not Saurabh) . But the point still stands - armies dont mount rescue operations to 'liberate' POWs.

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Postby Digvijay » 18 Nov 2006 01:04

Surya wrote:Digvijay

the Hindu percentage thingy is beyond the scope of this forum -

Please lets not go into this "if you do not agree with me you are a marxist jhollawallah theory".

There are no absolutes ( guess which philosophy allows for this).

I have always admired the bravery of our frontier states of oldbut not their brains.

Yes it is nice to read " the fort doors were thrown open and the warriors road to their last fight ". Waste - utter waste.

You have to take the time to understand what Shivaji did to see that if the Rajputs and others had used such tactics they would have won a lot more.

Take the time - read the differences in how Shivaji's MArathas tackled the invaders, take a look at the forts, the selection of location - it is brilliant military strategy- which is what is needed - not just bravery


Surya,
Send me an email and I promise that you will be convinced that your perception right now is incorrect. Due to BR guidelines I do not want to engage in medieveal history discussion here.

Just for the record guerilla warfare was first perfected by Maharana Pratap and later Shivaji adopted it.

-Digvijay

PS: My profile has a link to my web page and the profile there has my email address.

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Postby Digvijay » 18 Nov 2006 01:13

JCage wrote:What are you talking about?

It has nothing to do with religion or secular or anti-secular or the like. The man has a bee up his bonnet about his clan, and has pretty much made it clear that as far as he is concerned, only his clan (and some other suitably adorned martial races) opposed the islamists etc & he couldnt give a damn about the rest. Seeing this poetry in motion, I can well imagine why these different clans of warriors couldnt cooperate worth a damn, each was probably telling the other he was better. He has wrecked an Indian Army history thread already by pursuing this divisive line of hectoring. It was in the trash can till the admins restored it.

Then he proceeds with his one-two line rejoinders to simple questions, and when asked to back up his claims resorts to abuse and invective. Playing macho, tough talk, and terse rejoinders since one comes from a "clan of warriors" - I mean seriously, what do you expect us to do, cheer him on?

I am sure he can contribute positively to BR, but seriously he needs to lurk some and lose the chip on his shoulder.


Jcage,
Prejudices once formed are very hard to shake. If you are serious and sincerely believe what you have written above do send me an email and I will clear all your misconceptions. You can find my email address on my website, which my profile has a link to.

-Digvijay

Anoop
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Postby Anoop » 18 Nov 2006 05:10

Digvijay wrote:To say it is Saurav's father's perception is just a travesty.


To say that IA top brass deliberately suppressed the truth about Kalia's capture, without a shred of proof is even more of a travesty.

Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that army's handling was incorrect?


And why is it so hard for you to accept that if the timings had been reversed, Nachiketa may have well suffered Kalia's fate? Nachiketa was captured on May 27 amid great fanfare by the Pakistanis - he was their trophy; they didn't want to lose the publicity battle. Besides, by that time, the war was fully on, the IAF had been committed, daily press briefings were on, the media was already looking for stories. The Pakistanis couldn't very well do to Nachiketa what they had done to Kalia. In contrast, Kalia was captured on 15 May, at which time, even the extent of the intrusions were not known. The Army was coming to grips with the situation, the media was still finding their feet and looking for stories and the capture of Kalia was hardly the publicity equivalent of "shooting down" and IAF jet and capturing the pilot. All of which meant that Pakistan did not feel any heat on this issue until it was too late.

What does this have to do with the IAF's handling of the situation? It had more to do with Pakistan's need for positive publicity (in terms of capturing a pilot and then returning him safely).

Pokes a hole in your convenient theory, doesn't it? Such is life.


Also on Page 98 in Srinjoy's book the reference of keeping a diary is clearly of Nachiketa.


Wrong. You simply have not followed the narration and keeping harping on what is patently incorrect. Unfortunately for you, proof by repetition is not a valid call on this forum.

For the benefit of forumites, I am going to reproduce the relevant section here.

Page 97 last two paras:

Haunted Eyes talked of Fl. Lt. K. Nachiketa, captured after his MiG-27 flameout on 27 May, not long after Lt. Kalia was taken.

"The air force is so much better ....they kicked up such a fuss, the Pakistanis were forced to send Nachiketa back. Why didn't we do that? Why? This is something you must write about".


Page 98 first two paras:

He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurabh Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, the wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.

"I wonder what they thought of us, sitting in their cells undergoing torture. The Pakistanis routinely assault prisoners of war - I have heard that about the officers and men captured in 1971. He must have initially thought we would try and get him back. Slowly his hopes must have faded. He knew he would never get home".


And the conversation between Maj. "Haunted Eyes" and the author continues in that page.

It is clear to anyone who reads this who the "He" referred to as hearing screams on page 98 is, it is the Major, whose narrative is continuing. It is not Nachiketa. And it is further clear that the screams were figurative of the mental agony the Major was undergoing at the thought of Kalia's fate.

Judge the level of credibility of this poster Digvijay, who has not only misinterpreted (wilfully?) the passage in the book, but who lacks the courage to admit he was wrong, and instead, continues to perpetrate the canard.

Now to the audience, I was asked to provide a reference and I did provide it. Now can any one of you refute what has been provided with another reference?


No, you have done no such thing. You banked on the fact that others here haven't read the book. You've been called on it and have come up short. Which is not surprising, considering your posting record.
Last edited by Anoop on 18 Nov 2006 06:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby CPrakash » 18 Nov 2006 07:04

Game Set and Match to Anoop :)

Digvijay you should brush up your comprehension - Harry, please join him

But seriously, I can understand why digvijay got confused and harry as well. Its not helped by the narrative style of writing by the Author.

It is clear that its the Major who is talking about Kalia and not Nachiketa. And the Major is talking figuratively. Its not like he is actually hearing them - just that he 'can imagine what their screams would have been'.

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Postby Surya » 18 Nov 2006 07:31

The same animals who were savaging Somalis - no wonder the Somalis gutted the rats.

As for the future any SSG joker who gets caught by a JAT unit better keep a bullet for himself.

And the swine Presidente who leads them the less said the better

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Postby Digvijay » 18 Nov 2006 14:42

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote:To say it is Saurav's father's perception is just a travesty.


To say that IA top brass deliberately suppressed the truth about Kalia's capture, without a shred of proof is even more of a travesty.



Anoop,
You cannot selectively believe Major Haunted Eyes in one narrative and not the next.

Page 97:
--begin quote
'We virtually killed him,' he said. 'We could have saved Saurav Kalia'.

'How? He was captured.'

'We knew about it. I heard that people actually saw the patrol being captured. I wonder what he thought of us sitting in his little prison cell in Skardu, in POK. He must have hoped to get back. He must have realized we had betrayed him.'

[To say army brass did not know they were captured is utter bonkers. That they did nothing to internationalize the issue before and after Saurav's death is the key issue here. This text in square brackets is not from the book]

After the Pakistanis announced their capture, there was silence for weeks, except the drip-drip of radio intercepts that the major only heard about.

'We used to talk about it. I used to say, We must do something. We must save the boy. No one did anything.'

Lieut Kalia's CO was apparently on leave and the other officers of 4 Jat did not want to take the initiative. They decided to wait and see.

[Same story again. Khanna and Malik were on leave at an inoppurtune time and so was 4 Jat CO. No wonder our soldiers fall through the cracks and we have people here defending the actions of our brass especially when Pakis had been doing this to our soldiers in pretty much all wars fought with them. This text in square brackets is mine]
--end quote

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge that army's handling was incorrect?


And why is it so hard for you to accept that if the timings had been reversed, Nachiketa may have well suffered Kalia's fate? Nachiketa was captured on May 27 amid great fanfare by the Pakistanis - he was their trophy; they didn't want to lose the publicity battle. Besides, by that time, the war was fully on, the IAF had been committed, daily press briefings were on, the media was already looking for stories. The Pakistanis couldn't very well do to Nachiketa what they had done to Kalia. In contrast, Kalia was captured on 15 May, at which time, even the extent of the intrusions were not known. The Army was coming to grips with the situation, the media was still finding their feet and looking for stories and the capture of Kalia was hardly the publicity equivalent of "shooting down" and IAF jet and capturing the pilot. All of which meant that Pakistan did not feel any heat on this issue until it was too late.

What does this have to do with the IAF's handling of the situation? It had more to do with Pakistan's need for positive publicity (in terms of capturing a pilot and then returning him safely).

Pokes a hole in your convenient theory, doesn't it? Such is life.



So you want us to believe in fate? If this or that would have happened Nachiketa's fate would have been x and not y. Grow up man. You do not rely on fate you rely on your own actions to save your men. Army knew from day one that Saurav has been captured. Yet THEY DID NOTHING. Now you may be ok with this inaction but I am not. Blame squarely falls on Malik and Khanna and the 4 jat chain of command. By your logic any soldier captured would not be freed or attempted to be freed till pakistan actually gives him up. This is utter and complete non-sense.


Anoop wrote:
Also on Page 98 in Srinjoy's book the reference of keeping a diary is clearly of Nachiketa.


Wrong. You simply have not followed the narration and keeping harping on what is patently incorrect. Unfortunately for you, proof by repetition is not a valid call on this forum.

For the benefit of forumites, I am going to reproduce the relevant section here.

Page 97 last two paras:

Haunted Eyes talked of Fl. Lt. K. Nachiketa, captured after his MiG-27 flameout on 27 May, not long after Lt. Kalia was taken.

"The air force is so much better ....they kicked up such a fuss, the Pakistanis were forced to send Nachiketa back. Why didn't we do that? Why? This is something you must write about".


Page 98 first two paras:

He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurabh Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, the wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.

"I wonder what they thought of us, sitting in their cells undergoing torture. The Pakistanis routinely assault prisoners of war - I have heard that about the officers and men captured in 1971. He must have initially thought we would try and get him back. Slowly his hopes must have faded. He knew he would never get home".


And the conversation between Maj. "Haunted Eyes" and the author continues in that page.

It is clear to anyone who reads this who the "He" referred to as hearing screams on page 98 is, it is the Major, whose narrative is continuing. It is not Nachiketa. And it is further clear that the screams were figurative of the mental agony the Major was undergoing at the thought of Kalia's fate.

Judge the level of credibility of this poster Digvijay, who has not only misinterpreted (wilfully?) the passage in the book, but who lacks the courage to admit he was wrong, and instead, continues to perpetrate the canard.



Now to the audience, I was asked to provide a reference and I did provide it. Now can any one of you refute what has been provided with another reference?


No, you have done no such thing. You banked on the fact that others here haven't read the book. You've been called on it and have come up short. Which is not surprising, considering your posting record.


I will grant you this point. But it is not the main point of our discussion. Bottom line Saurav and other jawans was tortured and killed, our army brass due to there ineptitude DID NOTHING to bring them back, did not raise a hue and cry about violation of geneva convention, filed no case against any Paki for War crimes, ever. Why?

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Postby CPrakash » 18 Nov 2006 19:25

Its obvious Major Haunted Eyes was talking with the benefit of hindsight .

I for one would like to see some actual reports that said for sure that the Army knew they were captured.

Then again you blame the Generals , then turn back and blame the lower rung officers . Make up your mind.

If you have the best of the solutions - then you can elaborate on how this 'rescue mission' to Skardu can be undertaken

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Postby Anoop » 18 Nov 2006 20:23

Digvijay,

You continue to embarrass yourself on the forum.

Let's check with another source (A Ridge Too Far by Amarinder Singh, pages 53-54) for the veracity of these claims of leave by the 15 Corps Commander, in the first place. Lt. Gen. Kishen Pal was on leave in Delhi on May 3 to attend to his wife's surgery. When he got word of the sighting of the intruders at Banju, he ordered 3 Inf Div. to reinforce 121 (I) Bde and returned to Srinagar. Patrols were sent out starting from May 4, but due to weather conditions, they sighted the enemy only on May 7 and made contact on May 8 and came under heavy fire. By this time, all operational commanders were at their HQ, including the much reviled (in the press) Maj. Gen. Budhwar. That puts paid to the theory that senior officers were on leave at the time Lt. Kalia was captured.

Now, why is their presence/absence irrelevant? To understand this, you must view the operations as a whole, instead of just in terms of Lt. Kalia's patrol.

Note that all the above was happening in the Yaldor-Batalik sub-sector up north. By May 11, the extent of intrusions were becoming clear even in the Dras sector further south. By May 12, the number of battalions in contact with the enemy were more than 5 and casualties were already taken.

Lt. Kalia's patrol went out on 14 May in the Kaksar subsector and was captured on May 15.

Why do I emphasize the different sectors? Take a look at the map to see how much farther into Indian territory the intrusions were in the Yaldor-Batalik and the Dras-Mushkoh sectors than in the Kaksar sector, where Lt. Kalia was captured.

So here's the situation at the time of Lt. Kalia's capture - intrusions had been detected in 3 sectors, two of which were much further into Indian territory than the one in which Kalia was captured, casualties were already taken, recce helicopters had already been fired upon and hit. A war was on. Now as acting CO 4 Jat, you hear that one patrol is missing, the other patrol sent for assistance was fired upon and took casualties, and later you hear through radio intercepts that the first patrol was captured. By now, your Bde is breathing down your neck to fix the intrusions and prepare to reverse them; they've given you reinforcements in the form of a company of 28 (RR), 14 Sikh and a battalion of 14 JAK Rifles.

So - do you go off in search of a missing patrol of 4 (which you hope will be returned at the end of the war) OR do you occupy positions on Point 5299, 4885 and 5305 and destroy all maintenance lines for the enemey posts on SW Spur, Junction and Saddle?

If you are Digvijay, you'd do the former (or claim to do so on a website, of course; real life has a way of enforcing Darwinian selection much sooner). Thankfully for us, Maj. Shekhawat of 4 Jat accomplished the latter by 22 May and held the posts in the face of heavy artillery until 2 June when he was seriously wounded.

One can see that even at the unit level, they were overwhelmed with their current tasks of reversing the intrusions and taking casualties in the process.

What of the higher formations, you ask? Well, your bete noir Lt. Gen. Kishan Pal, GOC 15 Corps, had accomplished the task of inducting 3 Bde HQ, 19 Inf. Battalions, 4 Regts of Field Arty, 2 Regts of Medium Arty into the sectors within a span of 26 days. That was his job, it was not to "take up the case of Lt. Kalia with the international press".

So you want us to believe in fate? If this or that would have happened Nachiketa's fate would have been x and not y. Grow up man. You do not rely on fate you rely on your own actions to save your men. Army knew from day one that Saurav has been captured. Yet THEY DID NOTHING.


I am quoting this gem of yours so that forumites can contrast it with my post above on what the Army did, in response to your accusation that THEY DID NOTHING. Enough said.

Now you may be ok with this inaction but I am not. Blame squarely falls on Malik and Khanna and the 4 jat chain of command. By your logic any soldier captured would not be freed or attempted to be freed till pakistan actually gives him up. This is utter and complete non-sense.


Really? And it makes complete sense that 4 JAT, accompanied by Gen. Malik and Lt. Gen. Khanna, would go all the way to Skardu to release Lt. Kalia? Can you read a map, son? Do you know the anything at all about military operations? Didn't your clansmen tell you about it or weren't you paying attention?

Here's a question for you, Digvijay. After Lt. Kalia's body was returned to India on 2 June, was it the job of the Army to file a case against Pakistan for war crimes or was it the job of the Govt. of India? Does the Army have the authority of appeal to an international body or is its jurisdiction limited to providing proof of the enemy's war crimes? What other proof was required other than the mutilated bodies of the soldiers? So, tell me again, where the IA brass fall short?
----------------------

Admins, do you really want this line of discussion to continue? If one doesn't refute this garbage, it takes on a life of its own and suddenly, Lt. Gen. Khanna and Gen. Malik become personally responsible for not saving Lt. Kalia. There has to be some semblence of reality to the claims trotted about on an open forum, don't you think?

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Postby Atish » 18 Nov 2006 20:56

Ramana and other admins.

Do you think that the sort of discussion that Digvijay brings to the table should be allowed and encouraged in BRF. Or is it another "experiment"?

Do we really need to dissect manliness of Kshatriyas vs others, or Rana Pratap vs Shivaji?

Please inform.

Between Digvijay and Rahul Mehta, if the level of discussion is what it is due to admin indulgence and not lack of time on their behalf. I would like to change my homepage and source of info from BRF to something else.

I do not question admin judgement, but it just seems to be slowly going more and more beyond what I think is apprpriate and informative.

I would appreciate an answer by personal mail too if you deem fit. atish underscore bazi at yahoo dot com.

Thanks and Regards.
Atish.

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Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2006 21:17

Atish, If admins intervene too soon how would Anoop get to counter the incorrect statements? I see that Surya et al are engaging quite well. If we dont allow discourse we will be Stalinist. Will send you an e-mail too.

Satyame jayate.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 18 Nov 2006 21:25

Anoop,
Very good rebuttal and evidence. I hvn't read the book, but from the paras you put in there, it certainly was Major Haunted Eye's recollection..

Digvijay,
Pls refrain from raising clans and castes in such discussions. It betrays a narrow, prejudiced mindset. Also asking the IA to disobey orders and set their own objectives would set a very, very dangerous precedent. What do you want, a professional IA or a set of unruly, savage marauders?

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Postby Anoop » 18 Nov 2006 22:18

Gentlemen,

The key issue is this - how did the IA brass (at any level) become the fall guy on an Indian forum for the atrocities that the Pakistanis committed? The IA had a war to fight and they fought it to the best of their ability. Does a Corps Commander have the time during war to follow up on every individual soldier's well-being or does he devote his energies to fighting the Corps battle, preparing briefings for AHQ and handling the media about the higher direction of war?

Only a complete fool, who has absolutely no understanding of the way such a large organization works even in peacetime, let alone war time, would make the statements that Digvijay has. It shows an appalling lack of understanding, and what's worse, an agenda to smear people's reputations.

The contrast with the case of the IAF has been addressed before - apart from the publicity angle (for Pakistan), the number of casualties the IAF took were far less (about 15 in total?) than those of the IA. It is obviously much easier for them to focus on a single captured pilot, than for the IA for whom a missing patrol is one of many, and indeed a sign that the patrol is in captivity is better than a sign that it has been destroyed, because in the past, IA prisoners have been returned at the end of the war.

The war ended 7 years ago. What has Digvijay done to highlight Pakistani atrocities in the international media? What has he done to press the GoI to file a case against Pakistan for war crimes? What has he done to solicit support among BRites for this purpose?

We all know what he has done to blame IA brass for their purported failure on this public forum. And this is 7 years after the fact. But we are asked to believe that the IA brass, fighting the battle and taking casualties in the tens, if not the hundreds at the time, erred in not pursuing Lt. Kalia's case for 15 days, after which he turned up dead.

I mean, COME ON.....

Letting off steam is all very well, but one must know where to direct the fire, if I may mix metaphors.

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 18 Nov 2006 23:12

Atish wrote: ... Between Digvijay and Rahul Mehta, if the level of discussion is what it is due to admin indulgence and not lack of time on their behalf. I would like to change my homepage and source of info from BRF to something else.....


I don't mind your cursing me, but please curse me ONLY in the threads where I have written a word, so that I may reply back.


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