Kargil War Thread - VI

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 18 Nov 2006 23:31

Re D

I have on this forum accussed the brass of gross incompetence and lot of corruption but to say that they don't care about the lives of fellow soldiers is stupid.

Any soldier of any rank to whom I ever talked to feels the issue of Lt Kalia to the core of his being.

As what IA did and was doing, a lot of cannot be said on open forum. The very fact that you do not know that IA gave back a lot for what happened means that you neither have any clan in army or you are such a dimwit that nobody deems it fit to talk to you about some hard realities of life.

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Postby Digvijay » 19 Nov 2006 00:18

Anoop wrote:Digvijay,

You continue to embarrass yourself on the forum.



No. You and others by supporting the brass are embarassing yourselves. If after many mutilations this brass of Indian army could not even get a war crimes tibunal setup to corner pakis what good are you. We know this brass would not venture deep into "our own territory" to recover its captured soldiers and would not collect and present evidence of torture so that a case of war crimes in violation of geneva convention can be filed against pakis. No man worth his salt can appreciate the likes of Khanna/Malik etc.

Anoop wrote:Let's check with another source (A Ridge Too Far by Amarinder Singh, pages 53-54) for the veracity of these claims of leave by the 15 Corps Commander, in the first place. Lt. Gen. Kishen Pal was on leave in Delhi on May 3 to attend to his wife's surgery. When he got word of the sighting of the intruders at Banju, he ordered 3 Inf Div. to reinforce 121 (I) Bde and returned to Srinagar. Patrols were sent out starting from May 4, but due to weather conditions, they sighted the enemy only on May 7 and made contact on May 8 and came under heavy fire. By this time, all operational commanders were at their HQ, including the much reviled (in the press) Maj. Gen. Budhwar. That puts paid to the theory that senior officers were on leave at the time Lt. Kalia was captured.

Now, why is their presence/absence irrelevant? To understand this, you must view the operations as a whole, instead of just in terms of Lt. Kalia's patrol.

Note that all the above was happening in the Yaldor-Batalik sub-sector up north. By May 11, the extent of intrusions were becoming clear even in the Dras sector further south. By May 12, the number of battalions in contact with the enemy were more than 5 and casualties were already taken.

Lt. Kalia's patrol went out on 14 May in the Kaksar subsector and was captured on May 15.

Why do I emphasize the different sectors? Take a look at the map to see how much farther into Indian territory the intrusions were in the Yaldor-Batalik and the Dras-Mushkoh sectors than in the Kaksar sector, where Lt. Kalia was captured.

So here's the situation at the time of Lt. Kalia's capture - intrusions had been detected in 3 sectors, two of which were much further into Indian territory than the one in which Kalia was captured, casualties were already taken, recce helicopters had already been fired upon and hit. A war was on. Now as acting CO 4 Jat, you hear that one patrol is missing, the other patrol sent for assistance was fired upon and took casualties, and later you hear through radio intercepts that the first patrol was captured. By now, your Bde is breathing down your neck to fix the intrusions and prepare to reverse them; they've given you reinforcements in the form of a company of 28 (RR), 14 Sikh and a battalion of 14 JAK Rifles.


So - do you go off in search of a missing patrol of 4 (which you hope will be returned at the end of the war) OR do you occupy positions on Point 5299, 4885 and 5305 and destroy all maintenance lines for the enemey posts on SW Spur, Junction and Saddle?

If you are Digvijay, you'd do the former (or claim to do so on a website, of course; real life has a way of enforcing Darwinian selection much sooner). Thankfully for us, Maj. Shekhawat of 4 Jat accomplished the latter by 22 May and held the posts in the face of heavy artillery until 2 June when he was seriously wounded.

One can see that even at the unit level, they were overwhelmed with their current tasks of reversing the intrusions and taking casualties in the process.

What of the higher formations, you ask? Well, your bete noir Lt. Gen. Kishan Pal, GOC 15 Corps, had accomplished the task of inducting 3 Bde HQ, 19 Inf. Battalions, 4 Regts of Field Arty, 2 Regts of Medium Arty into the sectors within a span of 26 days. That was his job, it was not to "take up the case of Lt. Kalia with the international press".



You go in underprepared with an unacclimatised army for high altitudue with inadequate clothing and ask your jawans to climb up the hills to flush out the enemy is what was done in Kargil. So stop trying to fool people. Your food chain is out building there house and holidaying. Get it through your head. If an army unit is captured, when there is a previous record of tortures by pakis, you CANNOT EXPCECT your men to come back in one piece at the end of the war. This is soldiering 101. You have to go in and mount an operation to free them. As far as job description goes malik and khanna were utter and complete failures. The density of men lost in the kargil war are highest compared to any other war. This is becauese our men were led by nincoomphs.
Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote:So you want us to believe in fate? If this or that would have happened Nachiketa's fate would have been x and not y. Grow up man. You do not rely on fate you rely on your own actions to save your men. Army knew from day one that Saurav has been captured. Yet THEY DID NOTHING.


I am quoting this gem of yours so that forumites can contrast it with my post above on what the Army did, in response to your accusation that THEY DID NOTHING. Enough said.


Well remind us what they did specifically to get Saurav and his men out. Painting a blue sky does not help.

Digvijay wrote:Now you may be ok with this inaction but I am not. Blame squarely falls on Malik and Khanna and the 4 jat chain of command. By your logic any soldier captured would not be freed or attempted to be freed till pakistan actually gives him up. This is utter and complete non-sense.


Anoop wrote:Really? And it makes complete sense that 4 JAT, accompanied by Gen. Malik and Lt. Gen. Khanna, would go all the way to Skardu to release Lt. Kalia? Can you read a map, son? Do you know the anything at all about military operations? Didn't your clansmen tell you about it or weren't you paying attention?

Here's a question for you, Digvijay. After Lt. Kalia's body was returned to India on 2 June, was it the job of the Army to file a case against Pakistan for war crimes or was it the job of the Govt. of India? Does the Army have the authority of appeal to an international body or is its jurisdiction limited to providing proof of the enemy's war crimes? What other proof was required other than the mutilated bodies of the soldiers? So, tell me again, where the IA brass fall short?

I knew this was coming. So army men are tortured and killed by pakis and Malik/Khanna were trying there level best to get a war crimes case filed against the pakis and govt stalled them! Awesome!

Dude you may be close to these people but spare us this non-sensical line of reasoning.


Anoop wrote:
----------------------

Admins, do you really want this line of discussion to continue? If one doesn't refute this garbage, it takes on a life of its own and suddenly, Lt. Gen. Khanna and Gen. Malik become personally responsible for not saving Lt. Kalia. There has to be some semblence of reality to the claims trotted about on an open forum, don't you think?


Buck stops at the highest point(s) of the pyramid. Ofccourse if Malik and Khanna do not want to be accountable that is another matter. THEY BOTH are responsible for what happened to Saurav.

-Digvijay

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Postby svinayak » 19 Nov 2006 00:41

This may help to get the correct perspective and big picture.
This time line also reveals that Kargil was a geo-political war
which some people in BR do not accept.



KARGIL TIMELINE


1998


June 1998 - first and most important warning was a June 2, 1998 note, personally signed by the then Intelligence Bureau Director, Shyamal Datta
In June 1998 the Kargil Brigade Intelligence Team (BIT) reported that ammunition supplies were being dumped and that terrorists had been seen in Skardu, Warcha and Marol awaiting infiltration through the Kargil sector.


July 1998 - July, Intelligence Bureau informants reported the deployment of M-11 missiles on the Deosai Plains and new mine-laying activities.

Aug 1998 - In August, the BIT and the Intelligence and Field Security Unit reported the presence of terrorists preparing to cross the LoC. Pakistani artillery flowed in as winter approached, a reversal of the normal practice.

Oct 1998 - Pervez Musharaff appointed COAS
By October, RAW was sufficiently concerned about developments to issue an express warning about the prospect of a "limited swift offensive", pointing in particular to the "constant induction of more troops from peacetime locations like Mangla, Lahore, Gujranwala and Okara into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir." Its assertion that a war was possible provoked an immediate challenge by the Director-General of Military Intelligence, and an inconclusive verbal discussion followed.

Nov 1998 - Northern Command, in its own internal assessments, recorded that November 1998 saw a three-fold increase in Pakistani troop movement in the Kargil sector when compared with November 1997. Vehicular movement doubled, while pack-animal movement increased nine-fold. As late as November 1998, the Intelligence Bureau's Leh station issued warnings that Pakistan was "training Taliban troops who were undergoing military training as well as learning the Balti and Ladakhi language." These irregulars, the warning stated, were likely to be inducted into the Kargil sector during April 1999.


1999



Feb 1999 - On February 9, 1999, troops of the 5 Para Regiment spotted movement on the top of Point 5770, a strategic height in the southern Siachen area on the Indian side of the LoC.

Feb 1999 - The Lahore Declaration was a historic declaration signed by the Indian Prime Minister, Mr. A. B. Vajpayee, and the Pakistan Prime Minister, Mr. Nawaz Sharif, in Lahore on February 21, 1999.

Mar 1999 - Again, on March 4, between eight and ten Pakistani soldiers were seen removing snow from a concrete bunker to the west of the summit of Point 5770. That evening, fire was exchanged over the area.

Strangely, the Siachen-based 102 Infantry Brigade removed the officer who had reported the intrusion, Major Manish Bhatnagar, not the Pakistani troops who had occupied the position. On the eve of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's visit to Pakistan, it is likely that India had no desire to initiate a bruising exchange of fire on Siachen. The 121 Brigade, which ought to have been told that Pakistan troops had demonstrated aggressive intent in an adjoining area, was not even informed of the development.

For one, despite both the flow of intelligence on possible infiltration in the Kargil sector, troops were actually pulled out from frontline positions. Soon after the loss of Point 5770, 9 Mahar Regiment was removed from its defensive positions along the Yaldor Langpa stream and stationed at a rear position near Leh. The 26 Maratha Light Infantry, which protected the crucial infiltration route from Mashkoh to Dras, was also pulled off forward duties.

Despite the summary removal of approximately a quarter of its troops, there is evidence to show that 121 Brigade did act. Troops were withdrawn from the Mashkoh area for just 80 days in the winter of 1999, down from 177 days in 1997 and 116 days in 1998. Yaldor was left undefended for 64 days from February to April, where troops had been withdrawn for 120 days in 1997 and 119 days in 1998. Kaksar, another key area, was undefended for just 38 days, where it was left open for over 200 days in previous years.


April 1999

April 11 - India says it has successfully test-fired a longer-range model of its Agni ballistic missile.

April 14 - The AIADMK withdraws support from the ruling coalition. President K.R. Narayanan asks the government to seek a confidence vote in parliament.

April 17 - India's 13-month-old BJP-led government falls after losing a confidence motion by just one vote. This may have been a trigger for Pakistan to be aggressive in Kargil

April 26 - India's parliament is dissolved and early elections are called. This may be one of major reason for the Pakistan Military to start the aggressive operation in Kargil.

Why was it that commanders in Leh and Srinagar were so slow to respond not just to the intelligence warnings that were available, but to the growing worries of their own subordinates?

General Malik argued that no troops were withdrawn by XV Corps from 3 Infantry Division's area of responsibility. This is, without dispute, true, since 9 Mahar and 26 Maratha battalions remained around Leh. Yet, General Malik's letter does not explain why General Budhwar chose to pull back soldiers needed to guard the LoC to rear positions when both intelligence warnings and field commanders believed threat levels were escalating.

General Malik also pointed out that the headquarters of 70 Infantry Brigade was inducted into the Dras area in October 1998, suggesting that the Army was indeed taking the warnings it received seriously. However, he omitted to mention the critical fact that only its headquarters' staff, not the fighting force, had been deployed when fighting broke out in May 1999.

With a dissolved parliament confrontation in the border is usaully avoided.



May 1999


May 1999 - Chinese moves in LAC Ladhak
"Chinese had inducted one company in the area opposite Chantze, with the rest of the battalion waiting in the wings," Malik discloses in the book. He says it was not only at Kameng, but the Chinese army enhanced its level of activity along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh as well from where some of the forces had been thinned down to be redeployed in Kargil.

"This enhancement in PLA activities along the LAC coincided with the start of the conflict in Kargil" Malik says which at military level, indicated a demonstrative support to Pakistan. Malik says this ran contrary to Beijing's assertions in recent years that it was pursuing an independent foreign policy and that its relations with Pakistan would not be at the cost of India. The Chinese forces also made a show of force in Demchok, in eastern Ladakh, constructed a track from Spanggur to south end of Pangong lake and a track in Trigg heights. He says India also received intelligence reports that PLA's Director in the Department of Armament had visited Islamabad during the conflict to help Pakistan army overcome its critical deficiencies in conventional armament, ammunition and equipment.

This may be one of the reason for not sending aggressive rescue missions to bring back captured Indian battalions. With only a caretaker government in India running the show there was a serious situation of China and Pakistan together attacking India.

May 4 - Lt. Gen. Kishen Pal was on leave in Delhi on May 3 to attend to his wife's surgery. When he got word of the sighting of the intruders at Banju, he ordered 3 Inf Div. to reinforce 121 (I) Bde and returned to Srinagar. Patrols were sent out starting from May 4, but due to weather conditions, they sighted the enemy only on May 7 and made contact on May 8 and came under heavy fire. By this time, all operational commanders were at their HQ, including the much reviled (in the press) Maj. Gen. Budhwar.


May 7 - Chinese Embassy Bombing in Kosovo - China US relationship problem. This bombing and an escalation is unexplainable. This event may have kept Chinese from entering the war in Kargil looking at the international publicity given to Chinese reaction.

May 11 - By May 11, the extent of intrusions were becoming clear even in the Dras sector further south. By May 12, the number of battalions in contact with the enemy were more than 5 and casualties were already taken. Lt. Kalia's patrol went out on 14 May in the Kaksar subsector and was captured on May 15.

May 16 - 6 choopers discovered in Kargil sector

May 24 - First report of infilterators.At a meeting of the Unified Headquarters in Srinagar on May 24, 1999, General Pal insisted that there "were no concentration of troops on the Pakistani side and no battle indicators of war or even limited skirmishes."

May 26 - India unleashes two waves of air strikes to flush out guerrillas on its side of a Kashmir ceasefire line, sharply raising temperatures in the region. The next day India confirms it has lost two fighter jets which Pakistan says they shot down.

May 28 - In Kashmir, a stinger missile brings down an Indian helicopter killing all on board. Lt. Gen. Kishan Pal, GOC 15 Corps, had accomplished the task of inducting 3 Bde HQ, 19 Inf. Battalions, 4 Regts of Field Arty, 2 Regts of Medium Arty into the sectors within a span of 26 days.


June 1999


June 12 - India and Pakistan hold "businesslike" talks over their Kashmir dispute but fail to resolve it; India says Pakistan tried to infiltrate the Turtuk Sector and puts the death toll at 267 Pakistanis and 86 Indians.

June 16, 1999 -The External Affairs Minister, Mr. Jaswant Singh has said his visit to Beijing has led to better understanding between India and China on regional and global issues, including the security perceptions of the two countries. Speaking to newspersons in Beijing at the end of his two day visit, he said new initiatives are already on the anvil.


July 1999


July 4 - India says it has recaptured the strategic Tiger Hill on its side of a military line of control in Kashmir.

July 9 - In Kashmir, the Indian army reports that it has all but ousted the infiltrators from the Batalik zone on India's side of the ceasefire line.

July 17 - India signals the end of the flare-up with Pakistan by announcing that all infiltrators have withdrawn from Indian-held Kashmir.

July 26 - India says its troops have cleared all infiltrators from their side of the Line of Control that divides Kashmir.
Last edited by svinayak on 19 Nov 2006 01:02, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby CPrakash » 19 Nov 2006 00:42

Atish Anoop and others,

There is not much we can do to get rid of Digvijay. He has not broken any forum rules and it may be unfair to call the admins to ban him just because his views fall in a minority.

Look at it this way, if he wasnt arguing his bigoted and narrow view, we wouldnt really know what kind of people exist out there. It is up to us, the Forum members to straighten him out, rather than calling upon the forum mods - which i think is the easier way out.

Fanne,

You werent here in the earlier threads , right from the time he started posting about his rajput blog. Its not surprising if forumites patience has been stretched.

Digvijay,

You still havent put forward your bright ideas on how you would have solved the problem . Put yourself in teh Army chiefs seat and then the Colonel of the Jat units post and enlighten us what you would have done to liberate kalia and his men.

We are willing to learn. :P

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Postby Lalmohan » 19 Nov 2006 01:34

All, this is futile and a waste of bandwidth

let us accept that all opinions have been provided and there exist two or more schools of thought. lets agree to disagree

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Postby ramana » 19 Nov 2006 01:39

Lalmohan, Its not as simple as that of just disagreement. What DV is promoting is at its core undermining the idea of India by promoting the questioning of the upper ranks by the lower ranks as to motivation and incapability. DV type of arguements have to be countered and put to rest if we believe ina democratic India.

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Postby Anand K » 19 Nov 2006 01:57

AFAIK, POW rescue ops are very rare...... so many things have to fit together. The great Patton himself landed in trouble when his Task Force Baum, a POW rescue mission, ended in a total FUBAR. Story goes that one reason he tried this stunt was to rescue his son-in-law. Anyway, this was after the Malmedy Massacre and maybe they thought the Germans might summarily execute the Allied POWs as they retreated deep into Germany.

They were perhaps influenced by the success of the Cabanatuan Raid a few months before...... (This raid was recently made into a movie starring Joseph Fiennes and Connie Nelson as the Heroine of Manila, Margaret Utinsky). This raid was successfull only because they had the support of a large band of Filipino militia, good intel from Utinsky's networks, the prison itself was close to the border and HQ was pretty sure the POWs would be executed by the Japanese. They had seen proof of Japanese hospitality at abandoned POW camps and fiascos like Operation Rimau (anyone remember the Star TV miniseries based on this episode?). Well, executed would be a kind word...... apparently batches of POWs in these camps were packed tight into underground bunkers and burnt alive.

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Postby Anoop » 19 Nov 2006 03:16

Digvijay,

You are the nincompoop (and what's more, you don't know how to spell it).

So let's look at your reasoning - the brass erred in asking non-acclimatized soldiers to take back the hills - false, of course, but I think I'll just use your stupidity against you. Yet, according to you, they should have asked those same soldiers to mount operations deep into enemy territory!!

Seriously, boy, stop this nonsense. You don't know the first thing about warfare, terrain, selection and maintenance of objectives or force build-up, do you?

The density of soldiers killed in Kargil was the highest in any war? Are you off your rocker? Do you know that during Kargil, a force recovering higher altitude from an entrenched enemy that had artillery support was the lowest ever when compared to enemy casualties? Your bombast no longer surprises me - what are you, all of 12 years old?

I knew this was coming. So army men are tortured and killed by pakis and Malik/Khanna were trying there level best to get a war crimes case filed against the pakis and govt stalled them! Awesome!


And yet you have no answer! Doesn't speak much for your smarts, does it? I repeat my question - what has the GoI done to file a case against Pakistan for war crimes conducted during Kargil?

Then go on to tell me - what have YOU done to get the Pakistanis punished for Kalia's torture?

By the way, I am not close to anybody, least of all Gens. Khanna and Malik. What you're seeing is the utter rejection of your line of accusation based on published evidence and boy, am I having fun rubbing your nose in the dirt.

Buck stops at the highest point(s) of the pyramid. Ofccourse if Malik and Khanna do not want to be accountable that is another matter. THEY BOTH are responsible for what happened to Saurav


If that were true, the President of India, the Commander-in-Chief of Indian Armed Forces, is responsible for what happened to Lt. Kalia. Puts a little wrinkle in your crusade, doesn't it, boy?

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Postby Anoop » 19 Nov 2006 03:26

CPrakash wrote:Atish Anoop and others,

There is not much we can do to get rid of Digvijay. He has not broken any forum rules and it may be unfair to call the admins to ban him just because his views fall in a minority.


Prakash, I have a feeling Digvijay will get himself banned, with no outside help. Btw, I am not calling for his ban. I merely wondered whether the admins decided to tolerate deliberate slander of retired officers. I take back my request for the admin to have a quiet chat with this fellow; I am having waaay too much fun watching the little tick tie himself in knots.

The problem is not that his views fall in a minority - it is that his views are uninformed, uneducated and amount to slander of specific people on a public forum based on hearsay. He does not even know what he is quoting from a book, far less have the capability to understand a fluid situation.

Notice how he evades all questions on what he specifically has done to get justice to Lt. Kalia's memory? All he has done here is accuse two retired officers of incompetence and worse, deliberate neglect of their soldiers' well-being.

If you think I'm going to sit by and let that slide, especially since it's coming from a complete dimwit, you're mistaken.

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Postby Anoop » 19 Nov 2006 03:37

Digvijay wrote: If an army unit is captured, when there is a previous record of tortures by pakis, you CANNOT EXPCECT your men to come back in one piece at the end of the war. This is soldiering 101. You have to go in and mount an operation to free them. As far as job description goes malik and khanna were utter and complete failures.
.

I love it when a pimply faced teenager takes it upon himself to tell us what Soldiering 101 means. Especially when he steps on his own poop in the next sentence. So, genius, tell us - did the IAF "go in and mount an operation to free" Nachiketa? He did come back, didn't he?

I am waiting with bated breath to hear what this operation you would mount is. So far, all the mounting here has been done on your rearside, with your pants around your ankles (figuratively speaking, of course...but those bangles you wear sure made a din :D)

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Postby Anoop » 19 Nov 2006 03:44

Digvijay wrote:captured soldiers and would not collect and present evidence of torture so that a case of war crimes in violation of geneva convention can be filed against pakis. No man worth his salt can appreciate the likes of Khanna/Malik etc.


Let's see. What evidence that Lt. Kalia was tortured in captivity is missing at the moment? The bodies were handed back to India by Pakistan in the full glare of media publicity just preceding their FM's visit. The post mortem report by IA's doctors show evidence of torture prior to death.

Tell me again, what evidence remains to be collected and presented, that Lt. Gen. Khanna and Gen. Malik have obstructed?

You are not even half a man and you're worth nothing. So it stands to reason that you can't appreciate anything.

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Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2006 13:10

Anoop no admin could have done a better job of making chutney out of biased views than you have done.

BRF has always depended on the presence of clear and free thinking people who will vehemently oppose what they see as wrong without the need for crude blunderbuss admin action which is reserved for extreme cases.

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Postby Lalmohan » 19 Nov 2006 18:00

Digvijay - one final comment. its all very well of you to rant on about the glorious resistance of your clan against invaders (muslims). However, your 'clan' is not the only one and by far not the most successful at that endeavour. My money is on the Assamese, Manipuris and Oriyas as having kept the Mughals (and others) at bay most effectively. Sort of blows a hole in the old martial race theory doesn't it?

it is this I think that people are finding more objectionable about your rants than criticism of the army brass. However laudable your desire to rescue POW's (perhaps fuelled by one too many Vietnam movies), as others have pointed out there are many many issues that the military has to deal with. If you have met Indian army men, and gotten to know them, you will find that they are not quite as callous as you make them out to be.

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Postby Anoop » 19 Nov 2006 18:50

Thanks, Shiv. If I'm getting through to the forum at large, my purpose is served. Digvijay may yet prove to be a useful tool :).

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Postby fanne » 19 Nov 2006 20:10

This thread is almost hijacked!! but then I have learned many new things.

Anyways,
Is there anything that can be done to rescue captured soldiers during wartime (or that would be a major distraction from the war at hand).
Three ideas that has been sort of suggested here are -
1.You publicize the capture before hand and emphasize that they have been captured alive. Maybe that would deter the enemy from executing them
2. Extract revenge (with extra emphasis), or to paraphrase Mr. Ramana proclaim that as vagaries of war and decimate the unit that did anything bad with the PoW. A case in point had been that TSP started raiding our border posts and were decapitating captured soldiers. They were rpayed back in the same coin (perhaps more) and from then on the raiding has stopped. This also says something about Kashmir strategy, maybe we need to take the war to TSP, for every soldier/Civilian killed on our side, if we can have the same on the other side, maybe we will have peace after some time.
3. Pursue a criminal investigation on the mistreatment of PoWs in an international court. This might act as deterrent in the future.
rgds,
fanne

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Postby Ramsey » 20 Nov 2006 10:51

The bodies were handed back to India by Pakistan in the full glare of media publicity just preceding their FM's visit. The post mortem report by IA's doctors show evidence of torture prior to death.


The Bodies has to be recieved in front of the Media glare in the Opened Body sack condition in front of the Pakisthani handling over persons and the Post mortem to be conducted by the Neutral membor instead of IA's Doctor(International Institution).

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 15:33

fanne wrote:This thread is almost hijacked!! but then I have learned many new things.

Anyways,
Is there anything that can be done to rescue captured soldiers during wartime (or that would be a major distraction from the war at hand).
Three ideas that has been sort of suggested here are -
1.You publicize the capture before hand and emphasize that they have been captured alive. Maybe that would deter the enemy from executing them
2. Extract revenge (with extra emphasis), or to paraphrase Mr. Ramana proclaim that as vagaries of war and decimate the unit that did anything bad with the PoW. A case in point had been that TSP started raiding our border posts and were decapitating captured soldiers. They were rpayed back in the same coin (perhaps more) and from then on the raiding has stopped. This also says something about Kashmir strategy, maybe we need to take the war to TSP, for every soldier/Civilian killed on our side, if we can have the same on the other side, maybe we will have peace after some time.
3. Pursue a criminal investigation on the mistreatment of PoWs in an international court. This might act as deterrent in the future.
rgds,
fanne


some wargaming is possible with this...

1: probably a good idea... in the context of kargil, tsp would have had to come out and say either it is them or the mujahideen... in either case, the domino would have been set to fall on their side...

2. it is a little fantastic but... here it is ... mount an operation to capture a high ranking officer from the other side... it may entirely be possible to do this.. and use him for bargaining... in the process get some intelligence from the high ranking potbellied officer... this has a lot of political ramifications... but india had the chips on its side at that point...

3. this should definitely be done... but tsp has a way of denying everything... so they will claim that the very fact that they handed over the bodies to india showed that they treated pows humanely... so this process of handing over has to be documented in video etc with the people shaking hands and some signatures over the videos...

i dont see any point in ramming digvijay for expressing an opinion that there should be an aggressive response to a typically barbaric tsp act.. if you dont have the right ideas, you can wring your hands in despair... why screw the poor chap for his views?

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Postby saumitra_j » 20 Nov 2006 16:24

why screw the poor chap for his views?


In his views, army top brass is incompetent and doesn't care for its people; In his views, army should forgotten its military objectives and instead revenged Saurabh Kalia instead - and that is what is being opposed by everyone.

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Postby Anoop » 20 Nov 2006 16:37

RAMSEY wrote: The Bodies has to be recieved in front of the Media glare in the Opened Body sack condition in front of the Pakisthani handling over persons and the Post mortem to be conducted by the Neutral membor instead of IA's Doctor(International Institution).


This makes sense, so I looked up the Geneva Convention

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

SECTION III

DEATH OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 120

-------
Death certificates in the form annexed to the present Convention, or lists certified by a responsible officer, of all persons who die as prisoners of war shall be forwarded as rapidly as possible to the Prisoner of War Information Bureau established in accordance with Article 122. The death certificates or certified lists shall show particulars of identity as set out in the third paragraph of Article 17, and also the date and place of death, the cause of death, the date and place of burial and all particulars necessary to identify the graves.

The burial or cremation of a prisoner of war shall be preceded by a medical examination of the body with a view to confirming death and enabling a report to be made and, where necessary, establishing identity.


The provisions set out in the first paragraph could not have been implemented by India; they were the responsibility of Pakistan. The provisions of the second paragraph have been fulfilled by India. However, that is not sufficient evidence in a court of law.

Now, let's look at legal avenues to bring Pakistan to justice. In the 20th century, only 4 war crime tribunals have been held, two successful (Nuremberg and Tokyo) and two partially successful (International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda). In all cases, the prosecution had their accused as prisoners. That doesn't clearly apply to the case of Kalia's captors. So how does and to whom does India appeal for retributional justice?

Thus, the modalities of acceptance of the bodies make no material difference, although I can believe that we erred in conducting a closed door post-mortem.

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 16:41

saumitra_j wrote:
why screw the poor chap for his views?


In his views, army top brass is incompetent and doesn't care for its people; In his views, army should forgotten its military objectives and instead revenged Saurabh Kalia instead - and that is what is being opposed by everyone.


dude, point is that bringing saurav kalia back should/could have been a very good/valid politico-military objective... and that does not seem to have been the case as we know it.

that is sad and makes one feel dejected... why waste a soldier's life... a pilot is expensive to train and one of the few.. ok you bring him back.. even a soldier is rarest of the rare.. what did you do about it... i empathise with the loss, so do you..

anyway, there is a good story for an indian super bond right here...

(i am pandu... panduranga............ in memory of saurav kalia..........) :)

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Postby Anoop » 20 Nov 2006 16:43

rajpa wrote: i dont see any point in ramming digvijay for expressing an opinion that there should be an aggressive response to a typically barbaric tsp act.. if you dont have the right ideas, you can wring your hands in despair... why screw the poor chap for his views?


And Digvijay has the right ideas on how to mount an aggressive response? It would have suited his (lack of) intelligence to wring his hands in despair, but he took it upon himself to accuse the IA's top officers of incompetence in conducting war and not saving Lt. Kalia; juxtaposed with his "ideas" on what had to be done to save Kalia, screwing him is actually letting him off easy.

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Postby saty » 20 Nov 2006 16:44

rajpa wrote:i dont see any point in ramming digvijay for expressing an opinion that there should be an aggressive response to a typically barbaric tsp act.. if you dont have the right ideas, you can wring your hands in despair... why screw the poor chap for his views?


Well Rajpa if that is all that Diggy boy had said it would be quite all right, he would have got some back thumping too. Read what he says, where he goes on to say that all the brass of Indian army are Namard and the Jat battalian being the only one with balls (due to the historical proof) of being THE defender of INDIA against muslims should forwith should have said all balls (pun intended) to army leadership and have broken the only thing that differentiates an army from a mob (discpline) and gone ahead and gotten themselves killed in quest for misplaced glory.

This is what he is being whacked for. You may make you own decisions.

Further as Anoop has said any real ideas on HOW to get it back would be worthwhile, otherwise this will turn into a day dream thread like many others on BRF are becoming.
Last edited by saty on 20 Nov 2006 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 16:54

saty wrote:
rajpa wrote:i dont see any point in ramming digvijay for expressing an opinion that there should be an aggressive response to a typically barbaric tsp act.. if you dont have the right ideas, you can wring your hands in despair... why screw the poor chap for his views?


Well Rajpa if that is all that Diggy boy had said it would be quite all right, he would have got some back thumping too. Read what he says, where he goes on to say that all the brass of Indian army are Namard and the Jat battalian being the only one with balls (due to the historical proof) of being THE defender of INDIA against muslims should forwith should have said all balls (pun intended) to army leadership and have broken the only thing that differentiates an army from a mob (discpline) and gone ahead and gotten themselves killed in quest for misplaced glory.

This is what he is being whacked for. You may make you own decisions.


whatever.. separating the wheat from the chaff...

can somebody here analyse if there could have been a successful local commander level operation to save kalia? i doubt that even if they were all jats/gurkhas/marathas etc (to include all the martial non-martial killer races/castes/insects/birds in india).... it would have required the political military machine of goi+ia to agree to an operation... this is where the entebbe type situation with cooperative "enlightened" political+military thinking comes to mind...

i do sometimes think that our attitude has become too defensive... we used to have the dch vs. gandhi debates.. should look at the "panduranga" as the third alternative.. :)

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Postby merlin » 20 Nov 2006 17:12

I hope that whatever was done to avenge the torture and killing of our soldiers sent a strong enough message to the perpetrators so that these things don't happen again. I sure hope the response wasn't a namby-pamby one.

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Postby saty » 20 Nov 2006 17:34

rajpa wrote:this is where the entebbe type situation with cooperative "enlightened" political+military thinking comes to mind...


I have a question even prior to that one, did we know that Kalia was captured, for sure not missing, but captured. Which means that we knew for a fact that his platoon was not lost in an ambush with bodies in a deep recess in a mountain but was with Pakistan?

Second, if we knew that he was indeed captured, do we know where was he being kept a prisoner?

Point is we were so in dark initially about our enemies on the front line, isnt it a little far fetched to imagine we would even know about their really small detailed plans behind the front lines?

Only then can we even think of a plan correct?

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Postby saty » 20 Nov 2006 17:38

merlin wrote:I hope that whatever was done to avenge the torture and killing of our soldiers sent a strong enough message to the perpetrators so that these things don't happen again. I sure hope the response wasn't a namby-pamby one.


Wild animals dont understand responses, as long as they live they can be expected to behave like this. The only response is to get them before they get us and dont get captured alive, take down 10 before you go down. Which is what the Indian army has done in so many actions before.

Make sure you die weilding a bayonet if nothing else rather than surrender. In 62, in longewala and others. I think they know their enemies very well.

Saty
PS> Sorry I if got carried away in a semi romantic post above.

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 17:39

merlin wrote:I hope that whatever was done to avenge the torture and killing of our soldiers sent a strong enough message to the perpetrators so that these things don't happen again. I sure hope the response wasn't a namby-pamby one.


the brig hq+co and the entire nli that did the act was decimated.

tsp went downhill racing.

i will come back to actual big picture later...

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 17:44

saty wrote:
rajpa wrote:this is where the entebbe type situation with cooperative "enlightened" political+military thinking comes to mind...


I have a question even prior to that one, did we know that Kalia was captured, for sure not missing, but captured. Which means that we knew for a fact that his platoon was not lost in an ambush with bodies in a deep recess in a mountain but was with Pakistan?

Second, if we knew that he was indeed captured, do we know where was he being kept a prisoner?

Point is we were so in dark initially about our enemies on the front line, isnt it a little far fetched to imagine we would even know about their really small detailed plans behind the front lines?

Only then can we even think of a plan correct?


does this answer those questions...? seriously... can somebody analyse that...

anoop wrote:
So here's the situation at the time of Lt. Kalia's capture - intrusions had been detected in 3 sectors, two of which were much further into Indian territory than the one in which Kalia was captured, casualties were already taken, recce helicopters had already been fired upon and hit. A war was on. Now as acting CO 4 Jat, you hear that one patrol is missing, the other patrol sent for assistance was fired upon and took casualties, and later you hear through radio intercepts that the first patrol was captured. By now, your Bde is breathing down your neck to fix the intrusions and prepare to reverse them; they've given you reinforcements in the form of a company of 28 (RR), 14 Sikh and a battalion of 14 JAK Rifles.

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Postby saumitra_j » 20 Nov 2006 18:21

i do sometimes think that our attitude has become too defensive... we used to have the dch vs. gandhi debates.. should look at the "panduranga" as the third alternative.. :)


All very well for those who don't fight real wars. Have you noticed how many policemen it takes to capture just ONE armed thug?? And here you are talking about fighting a professional army in some sort of kamandu operation? :shock: [/quote]

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Postby Ramsey » 20 Nov 2006 18:28

Marlin Wrote:
I hope that whatever was done to avenge the torture and killing of our soldiers sent a strong enough message to the perpetrators so that these things don't happen again. I sure hope the response wasn't a namby-pamby one

This is only to the end actuators and what about the upper echelon of the Junta who will be the real perpetrators of the cold blooded murder without getting the blood stains?

The Justice:
Even though it is a tactical failure on this part for India against the TSP during the kargil due to limited stricutres of the status and even though we could not get the perpetrator on hand what we can hope for is " the case has to be Onn in the International Communities with channelisation and keeping the issue alive in HRI and these should be made as the lead examples of the previous warcriminals in the forthcomming scenarious against as the Policy towards the POW's of the Military Junta of the TSP and to be tried under the War Tribunal and bringing them under the justice.

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Postby saty » 20 Nov 2006 18:59

RAMSEY wrote:Even though it is a tactical failure on this part for India against the TSP during the kargil due to limited stricutres of the status .


What exactly was the tactical failure, not getting him out? That can not be said conclusively as of yet. What else?

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Postby rajpa » 20 Nov 2006 22:53

saumitra_j wrote:All very well for those who don't fight real wars. Have you noticed how many policemen it takes to capture just ONE armed thug?? And here you are talking about fighting a professional army in some sort of kamandu operation? :shock:


ok some fantasy meets reality stuff here...

we are talking about abducting some tsp high ranking officer... it might just have been possible...

such commando operations are not unheard of... a famous example: otto skorzeny and the mussolini episode... must be taught in every kamandu course...

the tsp officer you pick would not necessarily be as heavily guarded... war had not started yet... they would think surprise was on their side...

the questions:

1. the communications intercepted: were they tsp or jihadi.. didnt that give an idea that captured indian soldiers were in tsp hands?

2. the weapons being fired... were there any clues that they were regular tsp weaponry...?

if tsp involvement was detected in time, then it was ripe for kamandu action to get a tsp officer in return for kalia....
Last edited by rajpa on 20 Nov 2006 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby RayC » 20 Nov 2006 23:06

You go in underprepared with an unacclimatised army for high altitudue with inadequate clothing and ask your jawans to climb up the hills to flush out the enemy is what was done in Kargil. So stop trying to fool people. Your food chain is out building there house and holidaying. Get it through your head. If an army unit is captured, when there is a previous record of tortures by pakis, you CANNOT EXPCECT your men to come back in one piece at the end of the war. This is soldiering 101. You have to go in and mount an operation to free them. As far as job description goes malik and khanna were utter and complete failures. The density of men lost in the kargil war are highest compared to any other war. This is becauese our men were led by nincoomphs.


Mr Digvijay,


With very plebeian examples, I would like to ask a few questions, if I may.

1. To evict the intruders, do let us know from where Kishen Pal or anyone could have got acclimatised and over prepared troops?

2. If jawans don't climb the mountains to flush out the intruders, may one who who else you have in mind to do the job?

3. Therefore, could I suggest to you that the best option was exercised?

4. Let us not overplay this lack of clothing pizzazz. I commanded a battalion (and I was also in Op Vjiay) in the same sector and involved in an operation during the tenure. We could not even move then during moonlit night, let alone by daytime. We were clothed with the same clothes as was in Op Vijay. We did it then and the troops in Op Vijay did it too. Could we do with better clothing? Pray tell me, if one could get Gucci shoes, would one want Bata?

4. If there is a fire raging in a chemical factory versus a kitchen fire run wild, which one would you address first. Please do see the area of 5299 and then discuss. It was in my AOR when I commanded the unit. It is accessible from the Pak side and the snowfall the heaviest, apart from being avalanche prone. Yes, one should do all to retrieve the patrol, but would you know where they have been abducted to? Northern Area is not a very small area on ground, even if the map indicates it like a postage stamp, even if not smaller. What do you expect to do? Stab in the dark and fritter away the troops you have?

5. Do you grudge Kishen Pal to go to Delhi to be with his wife during a major surgery, which had been postponed many a time because of his dedication to the tasks of 15 Corps? Did he not return immediately leaving his wife on the operation theatre?

6. Do you grudge Khanna to go on leave to oversee his house? Or are you the type that feels that military men are not entitled to oversee personal problems and they should never go on leave? Most of the stress suicides are because military men cannot get their normal domestic issues sorted out while on leave because none bothers. And yet, you all do a song and a dance whenever their is a problem because leave is denied owing to exigencies of service.

Please get to understand the workings and problems of the Army and then come out with all your I presume well meaning hypotheses.

7. The 'density of troops killed' was more than any other war because the ratio for attack in the HAA is 11:1 compared to the thumb rule elsewhere of 3:1.

Don't you think it is time to first get to know of tactics and then pontificate?

I shall not be able to reply since I am on a tour for one month in areas where the internet is not accessible to meet my units. So, I am sure you will agree that even retired officers care for their men. So, for Christ sake, learn of the ethos that binds officers to their men and not go ballistics like a cyber warrior, even if well meaning.

Let me assure you that I would join you with all my might at my command on things that are wrong in the military, but when one see statement based on half baked thoughts as portrayed by the media, loose talk in Messes and drawing rooms basically to impress, one cannot but state what is the facts, especially when one has seenl the real McCoy.

So, the Kargil War was led by nincompoops?

You get the Army that you deserve. They are after all a part of you and with your intelligence too!

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Postby KLNMurthy » 21 Nov 2006 09:04

Digvijay wrote:
Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: Are you denying that Saurav Kalia was captured and tortured? Are you denying that our brass DID NOTHING to get him back? Are you denying Air Force got Nachiketa out, who was captured many days later?

And remind us why should we believe this brass is to be respected?

And read


If I may step in, can we all agree that the outrage visited on Saurav Kalia and his men is beyond words, and that there are grave unanswered questions about what our leadership (military as well as civilian) did or did not do about it. I can't get over the fact that Hon. Jaswant Singh made such a big deal of it in the media at the time, and then, suddenly, poof, nothing, no followup. Even the media showed little interest in holding the leadership's feet to the fire and demanding answers. It is one of the things that makes me despair about the moral fiber of our leadership.

Since we are all undoubtedly on the same side on this, what are we going to accomplish by going off on personal ego trips one way or another? If anyone has contacts that can shed some light, that would be welcome. I would dearly love to recevie some meaningful and true answers that tell me that this incident ws not how it seems to me.

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Postby shiv » 21 Nov 2006 09:19

RayC wrote:So, the Kargil War was led by nincompoops?


My mind is abuzz with piskology today starting from the nuke thread in the other forum.

"I am clever. I am competent. I am intelligent. I know. But all other Indians are morons. they are traitors. They are slaves. Only my personal patriotism and intelligence is beyond question"

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Postby srai » 21 Nov 2006 09:42

Like anything else, in hindsight, it is easy to find faults ... :wink:

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Postby manjgu » 21 Nov 2006 10:02

Dear Digvijay,

I know the Kalia family quite well.. we are frequent visitors to each others house ... and I can assure you that they have no complaints with the Army wrt to their son's fate. They understand that it was a war and the Army did whatever could be done under the trying circumstances. They are only pissed off with the politicians and nobody else. Even there, they have words of praise for some of the politicians who supported them during difficult moments.

I was reading a World War II account ( D Day) where the attacking soldiers were instructed NOT to help their wounded / injured comrades so that the momentum is not lost. So sometimes something has to be sacrificed for a bigger objective...

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Postby rajpa » 21 Nov 2006 10:39

shiv wrote:
RayC wrote:So, the Kargil War was led by nincompoops?


My mind is abuzz with piskology today starting from the nuke thread in the other forum.

"I am clever. I am competent. I am intelligent. I know. But all other Indians are morons. they are traitors. They are slaves. Only my personal patriotism and intelligence is beyond question"


Like anything else, in hindsight, it is easy to find faults ... Wink


where is the "wringing hands in despair/anger/frustration/hindsight" icon ?

and the recursive --- where is the "wringing hands in despair/anger/frustration/hindsight/not finding wringing hands in despair/anger/frustration/hindsight icon" icon ?

so on, so forth, ad nauseam ad infinitum.

Other nuggets:

"I am clever. I am competent. I am intelligent. I know. But all other Indians are morons. they are traitors. They are slaves. Only my personal patriotism and intelligence is beyond question. But I wont provide any solutions. Others can."

"Like anything else, in hindsight, it is easy to find musharrafs... "

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Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2006 20:48

After manoj's post I want no more discussion or replies on the subject of what IA did or didnt do. No more posts after mine.
Thanks, ramana

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Postby Digvijay » 21 Nov 2006 23:09

Lalmohan wrote:Digvijay - one final comment. its all very well of you to rant on about the glorious resistance of your clan against invaders (muslims). However, your 'clan' is not the only one and by far not the most successful at that endeavour. My money is on the Assamese, Manipuris and Oriyas as having kept the Mughals (and others) at bay most effectively. Sort of blows a hole in the old martial race theory doesn't it?


Dear Lalmohan,
I am sure all the routes taken by invaders came through Manipur, Assam and Orissa! Or is it a new incarnation of Marxist historians? Not believing your own history is what Indians love to do and you are not an exception. And please do read my earlier post on martial race theory and taking discussion on medieveal history further.


Lalmohan wrote:it is this I think that people are finding more objectionable about your rants than criticism of the army brass. However laudable your desire to rescue POW's (perhaps fuelled by one too many Vietnam movies), as others have pointed out there are many many issues that the military has to deal with. If you have met Indian army men, and gotten to know them, you will find that they are not quite as callous as you make them out to be.


Being too judgemental? Watching too many movies? Sorry havenot seen _any_ movie in more then a year. I have relatives, close buddies serving in the army. We are not talking about a generalization but specific examples. Do not twist my argument.

-Digvijay


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