Kargil War Thread - VI

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Postby Mihir » 07 Nov 2006 22:36

Any idea whether RayC's interview was published?

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Postby Sadler » 07 Nov 2006 23:34

Harry wrote:http://www.easternbookcorporation.com/moreinfo.php?txt_searchstring=11389

http://www.indiaclub.com/shop/SearchRes ... tock=18696


Thank you.

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Postby Sharma » 08 Nov 2006 10:08

@Sadler

Do not buy it now . We are publishing the revised version soon with added postscript about Gen's remarks w.r.t. "Line of Fire" and his answers to allegantions put on army by many officials after first release of his book.

If you want I may send you courier you a copy.

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Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2006 23:41

No, my interview has not been published.

But I was presented Musharaf's Line of Fire.

Total humbug.

A megalomaniac, who thinks he is the Second Coming of Christ!

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Postby Lalmohan » 08 Nov 2006 23:57

RayC wrote:No, my interview has not been published.

But I was presented Musharaf's Line of Fire.

Total humbug.

A megalomaniac, who thinks he is the Second Coming of Christ!


are you sure you have the right religion there RayC? :D

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Postby RayC » 09 Nov 2006 00:55

The second coming of Christ is a big happening to save the world.

It is from that aspect that I drew the analogy.

He thinks everyon else is an ass and he alone is Rambo and but for him the world will collapse!

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Postby svinayak » 10 Nov 2006 04:28

Sharma wrote:@Sadler

Do not buy it now . We are publishing the revised version soon with added postscript about Gen's remarks w.r.t. "Line of Fire" and his answers to allegantions put on army by many officials after first release of his book.

If you want I may send you courier you a copy.


Is it possible to make some pages available on the net which can be distributed so that people will buy Gen Malik's book and make it a bestseller.
Gen Maliks reply should be seen as the reply to the Line of Fire from Mush and made as the best seller in India including other languages.

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Postby Vivek_A » 11 Nov 2006 07:59

This is probably not the right thread for it, but when did India drop cluster bombs on TSP occupied Kashmir?

Cluster bomb kills five girls in Azad Kashmir

MUZAFFARABAD: Five young girls were killed when a toy-shaped cluster bomb they were playing with exploded in Azad Kashmir, officials said on Friday. The girls aged between three and six found a small bomblet that was likely fired in 2003 during heightened tensions along the de facto border that divides the Himalayan territory, officials said. “Two girls died on the spot and the other three succumbed to their injuries in hospital early on Friday,â€

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Postby surinder » 14 Nov 2006 22:04

Dear Experts:

Does this scenario described in the following letter to Editor seem a reasonable one? Could India have pulled this one? We did have an overwhelming air-superiority in 1999.

Thanks for responding.

surnder


[i]
http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/14/letted.htm#6

Kargil: what might have happened

....
The air bridge thus made would have maintained the troops on the ground. The forces inserted would then have fanned out to create a perimeter of defence by security critical points to further isolate the Skardu theatre. What might then have happened to our units on Kargil heights and Siachen, and to Karakoram highway?

Where were the forces to “surround the Indian division and annhiliate itâ€
Last edited by surinder on 14 Nov 2006 22:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Sadler » 14 Nov 2006 22:12

Sharma wrote:@Sadler

Do not buy it now . We are publishing the revised version soon with added postscript about Gen's remarks w.r.t. "Line of Fire" and his answers to allegantions put on army by many officials after first release of his book.

If you want I may send you courier you a copy.


I'll wait. When done, could you post details on how it can be purchased online??

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Postby Sharma » 15 Nov 2006 14:43

Final proof checking in process. Will be out of press by 1st week of Dec.

I will let you know how you may get that online

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 19:30

Lalmohan wrote:well, I was helping khanna build his house whilst playing golf with dagar and showing his daughter around the discos of leh, however the more pertinent question is - what did they do after it became clear what was going on

the issue is about threat identification and escalation, not what was happeneing before the threat was identified


Lalmohan,
Since you seem to know Khanna, Malik etc why was Saurav Kalia left to be tortured by Pakis? Why was the media not informed and why was there no retriubution? Should we still believe we were being led by the most able generals who "did not even flinch" when one of our own was captured and tortured? Why was there no "geneva convention violation" appeal made by the Indian army?

Nachiketa's case was handled much better by Air force and he was gotten back alive. NT did hear the screams of tortured jat regiment soldiers whose leader was Saurav. And you are defending such generals.
-Digvijay

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Postby JCage » 16 Nov 2006 19:42

Since you seem to know Khanna, Malik etc why was Saurav Kalia left to be tortured by Pakis?


Nobody higher up knew what was happening to Kalia or that the patrol had gone missing. Please be aware of LRP procedure, long patrols take their time to return and there is an established chain of procedure. Once it was known what had happened, the IA exacted its measure of vengeance. If you have information to the contrary, please do inform us. I find it infeasible that soldiers were being tortured to death, and that their compatriots would not have taken action despite hearing their screams (as your post implies).


Why was the media not informed and why was there no retriubution?


The entire unit that was believed to have been involved in the incident was decimated, during the course of the war, so in a way, justice was done.
Last edited by JCage on 16 Nov 2006 23:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2006 19:56

JCage, I wouldnt use such language to describe the fortunes of war.
Digvijay has not yet emerged from tribalism. He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat. So dil pe mat le yaar.
Thanks, ramana

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Postby CPrakash » 16 Nov 2006 19:59

ramana wrote:J He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat.


Couldnt have put it better.

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 20:14

JCage wrote:
Since you seem to know Khanna, Malik etc why was Saurav Kalia left to be tortured by Pakis?


Nobody higher up knew what was happening to Kalia or that the patrol had gone missing. Please be aware of LRP procedure, long patrols take their time to return and there is an established chain of procedure. Once it was known what had happened, the IA exacted its measure of vengeance. If you have information to the contrary, please do inform us. I find it infeasible that soldiers were being tortured to death, and that their compatriots would not have taken action despite hearing their screams (as your post implies).


Well the patrol gone missing was discovered rather quickly. The second paltan sent to bring them back was also ambushed. But the army brass just went numb. They for some inexplicable reason did not inform anyone, including, Saurav's parents (which BTW was a breach of protocol as the next of kin are supposed to be informed within a stipulated duration).

Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. They were put in cages not far from each other. Nachiketa was not laid a hand on because his case was on all major newspapers and tv channels both national as well as internaitonal.

But poor Saurav had no such luck. And Malik/Khanna and rest are to be blamed. Do note that Kalia was captured many days before Tiwari's capture.

One version says that Malik etc did not "want a PR disaster" of Indian soldiers crossing LOC.
JCage wrote:
Why was the media not informed and why was there no retriubution?


The entire unit that was believed to have been involved in the incident was literally massacred to the last man, during the course of the war.


Not really. The captured ofcourse were tortured and killed and we did nothing but the Jats did try to take the hills but were asked to "run up the hill and win it".

-Digvijay
Last edited by Digvijay on 16 Nov 2006 20:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 20:16

ramana wrote:JCage, I wouldnt use such language to describe the fortunes of war.
Digvijay has not yet emerged from tribalism. He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat. So dil pe mat le yaar.
Thanks, ramana


Ramana,
What do you mean by this?

-Digvijay

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 20:21

Sharma wrote:Final proof checking in process. Will be out of press by 1st week of Dec.

I will let you know how you may get that online


Sharmaji,

Does our esteemed general touch upon the case of Saurav Kalia at all? Since you know him could you ask him to comment if he has'nt already done so?

And you can also tell him that an Indian is very upset at him because he let some of our brave soldiers be tortured and did practically nothing.

-Digvijay

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Postby CPrakash » 16 Nov 2006 20:42

Digvijay wrote:
Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. T

-Digvijay


Source please

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Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2006 20:54

Digvijay wrote:
ramana wrote:JCage, I wouldnt use such language to describe the fortunes of war.
Digvijay has not yet emerged from tribalism. He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat. So dil pe mat le yaar.
Thanks, ramana


Ramana,
What do you mean by this?

-Digvijay


Digvijay, You know what I mean quite well. In the sum total of your posts you always talk about jats and never about India or Bharat. Either in BRF or IF. While we think of Vasudev Kutumbam (Motto on Lok Sabha) you write only of Jat Kutumbam. This implies a tribal loyalty dating to pre-Islamic era.
JCage with his writing has acquired a marquee status and what I am telling him is not to take it to heart and write stuff to counter your charges as it will acquire a life of its own.

Thanks, ramana

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Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2006 21:07

I see kakaji has jumped on the source bandwagon related to Jcage remarks.

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 23:02

ramana wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
ramana wrote:JCage, I wouldnt use such language to describe the fortunes of war.
Digvijay has not yet emerged from tribalism. He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat. So dil pe mat le yaar.
Thanks, ramana


Ramana,
What do you mean by this?

-Digvijay


Digvijay, You know what I mean quite well. In the sum total of your posts you always talk about jats and never about India or Bharat. Either in BRF or IF. While we think of Vasudev Kutumbam (Motto on Lok Sabha) you write only of Jat Kutumbam. This implies a tribal loyalty dating to pre-Islamic era.
JCage with his writing has acquired a marquee status and what I am telling him is not to take it to heart and write stuff to counter your charges as it will acquire a life of its own.

Thanks, ramana


For the record I am not a Jat and No I do not write about Jats. And secondly Saurav belonged to the jat regiment. I thought it was common knowledge but perhaps I assumed too much.

-Digvijay

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Postby Digvijay » 16 Nov 2006 23:09

CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. T

-Digvijay


Source please


You can start with Srinjoy's book.

-Digvijay

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Postby JCage » 16 Nov 2006 23:16

ramana wrote:JCage, I wouldnt use such language to describe the fortunes of war.
Digvijay has not yet emerged from tribalism. He still goes on about jats while the forum is discussing about Bharat. So dil pe mat le yaar.
Thanks, ramana


Sorry Ramana, I just meant that when I had asked about the unit that conducted the atrocities, I was told that they were repaid via the war itself, since they practically ceased to exist. I edited my post likewise.

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Postby svinayak » 16 Nov 2006 23:48

Digvijay wrote:For the record I am not a Jat and No I do not write about Jats. And secondly Saurav belonged to the jat regiment. I thought it was common knowledge but perhaps I assumed too much.

-Digvijay


You may have to change your approach in you posts. It contains mostly divisive discussion and class room discussion.

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Postby CPrakash » 16 Nov 2006 23:54

Digvijay wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. T

-Digvijay


Source please


You can start with Srinjoy's book.

-Digvijay


Can you quote what he wrote?

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Postby CPrakash » 16 Nov 2006 23:57

Digvijay wrote: I thought it was common knowledge but perhaps I assumed too much.


If you pepper your post with backhanded insults, you will end up getting more than that in return.

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 00:17

CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. T

-Digvijay


Source please


You can start with Srinjoy's book.

-Digvijay


Can you quote what he wrote?


page 97:
'The air force is so much better . . . they kicked up such a fuss, the Pakistanis were forced to send Nachiketa back. Why did'nt we do that? Why? This is something you must write about.'

page 98:
He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurav Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.
----------

( more there but too sad to write -Digvijay)

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 00:18

CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote: I thought it was common knowledge but perhaps I assumed too much.


If you pepper your post with backhanded insults, you will end up getting more than that in return.


Please keep the wise cracks to yourself.

-Digvijay

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 00:19

Acharya wrote:
Digvijay wrote:For the record I am not a Jat and No I do not write about Jats. And secondly Saurav belonged to the jat regiment. I thought it was common knowledge but perhaps I assumed too much.

-Digvijay


You may have to change your approach in you posts. It contains mostly divisive discussion and class room discussion.


What is classroom/divisive in this discussion?

-Digvijay

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Postby CPrakash » 17 Nov 2006 00:21

Digvijay wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
CPrakash wrote:
Digvijay wrote:
Nachiketa heard the screams of jat regiment soldiers being tortured. T

-Digvijay


Source please


You can start with Srinjoy's book.

-Digvijay


Can you quote what he wrote?


page 97:
'The air force is so much better . . . they kicked up such a fuss, the Pakistanis were forced to send Nachiketa back. Why did'nt we do that? Why? This is something you must write about.'

page 98:
He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurav Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.
----------

( more there but too sad to write -Digvijay)


Hmm, will have to ask srinijoy if he interviewed nachiketa on that.

reg the wisecrack. you should implent your own advice first - you might get better attention

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Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2006 00:44

Ok guys. DV not ment to hurt you. Sorry.
ramana

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Postby Harry » 17 Nov 2006 06:21

Sharma wrote:Final proof checking in process. Will be out of press by 1st week of Dec.

I will let you know how you may get that online


The PoW list on Pg.216 needed some correction or clarification,

Mention - Correction

Sepoy Abdul Hamid - ???? (Missing from the list was Sepoy Amar Khan)
Sepoy Mohammed Ayaz - From 4 NLI, not 5
Sepoy Salik Khan - Shahid Khan
Sepoy Hunar Shah - Hunar ?Sher
Last edited by Harry on 17 Nov 2006 06:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 06:34

Digvijay wrote: page 98:He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurav Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.
----------


A perfect example of how selective quotations can be used to prove any point, depending on one's pet peeves.

Here's the background to this little excerpt. The "He" referred to above is one Major "Haunted Eyes". This Major, as far as the book reveals, did not actually hear any screams (after all, how could he? It's a long way from Skardu, where Kalia was apparently taken); they were merely a product of his concern at the fate of the captured soldiers. He heard about the Kalia incident from a friend in Military Intelligence. Maj. "Haunted Eyes" goes on to say how he would talk about the need to get Lt. Kalia back after the Pakistanis announced their capture. The Major claims that he heard that some patrols saw Lt. Kalia's patrol being captured. The book goes on to claim that 4 Jat's officers did not take any action to bring Kalia back or highlight his fate to the world - whether this is the author's conclusion or the Major's is not clear.

So let's see - one Major struggles with his conscience about what he heard from a friend in MI; this is reported in a book, by which time the story is third hand - and this is clinching proof that the IA had bad Generals???

I want this poster to continue posting so we can all see for ourselves what a fine specimen we have here.

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Postby Harry » 17 Nov 2006 06:40

Nachiketa had already written about how the Pakis treat their POWS. Who else could he have been referring to?

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Postby Anoop » 17 Nov 2006 06:56

Harry wrote:Nachiketa had already written about how the Pakis treat their POWS. Who else could he have been referring to?


I don't know - maybe himself?? What I do know is that the book "Despatches from Kargil" by Srinjoy Chowdhury, does not mention that Nachiketa heard any screams.

When challenged about this particular assertion by CPrakash earlier on this page, Digvijay suggested that he read this book. Where, in this book, does it say that Nachiketa heard any screams? In fact, where is there any mention of an interview with/contact Nachiketa in this book?

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Postby Atish » 17 Nov 2006 07:25

Ramana,

I believe the term is "Vasudhaiva kutumbkam", Vasudev has a different meaning.

JCage,

when you say Paki regiment being decimated, do you mean they took some losses or were the wiped out (took very heavy losses). I have heard decimated being used both ways.

Atish.

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Postby Yerna » 17 Nov 2006 07:57

Atish wrote:Ramana,

I believe the term is "Vasudhaiva kutumbkam", Vasudev has a different meaning.

Atish.


Vasudhaiva is not the same as Vasudev. Vasudha = Earth and Vasudhaiva = Whole of earth. So 'Vasudhaiva Kutumbam' means, everyone on earth belongs to the same family.

Added Later: My bad, I misunderstood your post. I see that you are only correcting Ramana's typo.

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 13:58

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: page 98:He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurav Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.
----------


A perfect example of how selective quotations can be used to prove any point, depending on one's pet peeves.

Here's the background to this little excerpt. The "He" referred to above is one Major "Haunted Eyes". This Major, as far as the book reveals, did not actually hear any screams (after all, how could he? It's a long way from Skardu, where Kalia was apparently taken); they were merely a product of his concern at the fate of the captured soldiers. He heard about the Kalia incident from a friend in Military Intelligence. Maj. "Haunted Eyes" goes on to say how he would talk about the need to get Lt. Kalia back after the Pakistanis announced their capture. The Major claims that he heard that some patrols saw Lt. Kalia's patrol being captured. The book goes on to claim that 4 Jat's officers did not take any action to bring Kalia back or highlight his fate to the world - whether this is the author's conclusion or the Major's is not clear.

So let's see - one Major struggles with his conscience about what he heard from a friend in MI; this is reported in a book, by which time the story is third hand - and this is clinching proof that the IA had bad Generals???

I want this poster to continue posting so we can all see for ourselves what a fine specimen we have here.


Anoop,
Are you denying that Saurav Kalia was captured and tortured? Are you denying that our brass DID NOTHING to get him back? Are you denying Air Force got Nachiketa out, who was captured many days later?

And remind us why should we believe this brass is to be respected?

And read

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Postby Digvijay » 17 Nov 2006 14:00

Anoop wrote:
Digvijay wrote: page 98:He had kept a diary and he wrote about Saurav Kalia and his five jawans sometimes, their screams ringing in his ears and also, wild laughter of the men who tore them apart.
----------


A perfect example of how selective quotations can be used to prove any point, depending on one's pet peeves.

Here's the background to this little excerpt. The "He" referred to above is one Major "Haunted Eyes". This Major, as far as the book reveals, did not actually hear any screams (after all, how could he? It's a long way from Skardu, where Kalia was apparently taken); they were merely a product of his concern at the fate of the captured soldiers. He heard about the Kalia incident from a friend in Military Intelligence. Maj. "Haunted Eyes" goes on to say how he would talk about the need to get Lt. Kalia back after the Pakistanis announced their capture. The Major claims that he heard that some patrols saw Lt. Kalia's patrol being captured. The book goes on to claim that 4 Jat's officers did not take any action to bring Kalia back or highlight his fate to the world - whether this is the author's conclusion or the Major's is not clear.

So let's see - one Major struggles with his conscience about what he heard from a friend in MI; this is reported in a book, by which time the story is third hand - and this is clinching proof that the IA had bad Generals???

I want this poster to continue posting so we can all see for ourselves what a fine specimen we have here.


Anoop,
Are you denying that Saurav Kalia was captured and tortured? Are you denying that our brass DID NOTHING to get him back? Are you denying Air Force got Nachiketa out, who was captured many days later and army brass remained clueless on how to respond?

And remind us again why should we respect this brass ?

And read Srinjoy again. Army officers are far more candid talking in the mess. So do not discount what has been written by Srinjoy as hearsay just because you do not like it.

-Digvijay


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