Kargil War Thread - VI

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby satya » 30 Sep 2012 01:55

Ramanajee

Answer lies in term ' direct fire ' & 'indirect fire' & the meaning of two terms as understood by IA was different than one by IAF. Also IA's generals ( ones doing the helo support jaap) were looking for some 'josh' filled action from their IAF counterparts than one with 'hosh' .
And what about the large number of casualties on IA's side that could have been avoided or so as this report hints at ............. ( not without silent nodes in dilli )

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby rohitvats » 30 Sep 2012 02:36

^^^ramana, I am with ACM Tipnis on the use of air-power. He was right in appreciating that application of air power was simply not equivalent just another means to bomb the crap out of NLI sitting on top of those heights. It had far wider ramifications. For example, it clearly unnerved the Pakistan Army and their DGMO in one of the regular telephone calls to Indian DGMO sounded really perturbed and spoke about Indians 'escalating' the situation. He seems to have lost all bluster and bravado of earlier telephonic conversations (Source: Ex-COAS VP Malik's book on Kargil).

Deploying fighters in Kargil required all round mobilization of air assets and I'm sure IAF would have had to rejig deployment patterns to cater for resources diverted to Kargil - they also had to be prepared for escalation in other sectors.

And I guess, you're right in terms of perception about the use of helicopters. These would have been considered as an extension of fire support being given by the artillery.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2012 02:53

rohitvats, While on the subject realize that the IAF had just completed their annual firepower exercises in Pokhran range yet needed a week to get things ready. I think there is a gap there.

---------
BTW in 1965 also the Pakis miscalculated when they launched Op Gibraltar. They never expected India to cross the IB and move towards Lahore.

So some sort of group think was going on that India will play by their rulebooks only and they get surprised when India uses its comparative advantage.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby rohitvats » 30 Sep 2012 03:08

ramana wrote:rohitvats, While on the subject realize that the IAF had just completed their annual firepower exercises in Pokhran range yet needed a week to get things ready. I think there is a gap there.

I think that is not pertinent to the debate. On the contrary, the fire power demo in Pokhran would have meant that formations would have had to be pulled back and then reassigned to their tasks. It would have led to 1-0-1 type of situation rather than 0-1 type if formations were mobilized from their peace locations.


---------
BTW in 1965 also the Pakis miscalculated when they launched Op Gibraltar. They never expected India to cross the IB and move towards Lahore.

So some sort of group think was going on that India will play by their rulebooks only and they get surprised when India uses its comparative advantage.

This fact was captured in one of analysis done on the decision making before and during Kargil. The fact that the decision making was restricted to a very select group of people for secrecy purpose, it led to a closed loop positive feedback type of situation - where arguments were simply reinforced. There was no one to play Devil's advocate.


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Sep 2012 04:02

ramana wrote:BTW in 1965 also the Pakis miscalculated when they launched Op Gibraltar. They never expected India to cross the IB and move towards Lahore.

So some sort of group think was going on that India will play by their rulebooks only and they get surprised when India uses its comparative advantage.
Most definitely a group think was there, with the infamous gang of 4. The argument was that unlike 1965, the situation under a nuclear umbrella had changed. The thinking was India would not escalate and use of air power was an escalatory step in their eyes, which went against their perceived game plan.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby pentaiah » 30 Sep 2012 04:13

rohitvats wrote: :roll:

Well, we do need our entertainment quotient from time to time.... :P


The bravery of young officers , JCOs , NCOs, and ordinary sepoy was never in question
The question is about the out dated leadership thinking and co ordination, if the whole Kargil war was that simple episode like the Nathula exchange with PRC it would be not much to talk about.

The fact that senior officers were censured, a committee was formed to go into near debacle is ample evidence of failures at the top.

If you think it's still entertainment then I can't say any more...
Anyways it's all down the Jhelum river now after what 13 years, the question of how much we have learnt from this Kargil only the next one will reveal.
I will refrain from any more posts on this as I still feel the pain of Lt. Kalias anguish. May his soul rest in peace and his near and dear get solace from the fact that the nation still remembers him.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2012 04:44

For me Kargil is always a perfidy in more ways than one.
It threw to the winds the percieved wisdom that nuke powers dont directly fight for it could lead to escalation. One of the most important roles of nuke weapons is to deter war.
The fact that TSP indulged in aggression, which is the forceful occupation of other country's land despite that being against the UN charter, and didn't get censured by the P-5 speaks for itself
Further the treatment they meted to Lt Kalia and his troop was barbarous and again they did not get to pay the price.
The guy stages a coup and gets invited to Agra under the same benefactors that helped him launch the Kargil perfidy.

I can go on and on.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby khukri » 30 Sep 2012 06:08

ramana wrote:For me Kargil is always a perfidy in more ways than one.
It threw to the winds the percieved wisdom that nuke powers dont directly fight for it could lead to escalation. One of the most important roles of nuke weapons is to deter war.
The fact that TSP indulged in aggression, which is the forceful occupation of other country's land despite that being against the UN charter, and didn't get censured by the P-5 speaks for itself
Further the treatment they meted to Lt Kalia and his troop was barbarous and again they did not get to pay the price.
The guy stages a coup and gets invited to Agra under the same benefactors that helped him launch the Kargil perfidy.

I can go on and on.

Not just Lt. Kalia and his troop, Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja as wel, and it should have been the government's responsibility to make an international issue out of this - which we didn't do enough for.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby pentaiah » 30 Sep 2012 07:04

Yes indeed I have been banned earlier for my rants on this matter. So mum(s) is flower of the season and I stay mum

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Philip » 01 Oct 2012 07:00

The nation still suffers from a hanegover of the '62 syndrome and the reluctance to use air power.Only LBS,IG and Rajiv G broke the mould with the '65, '71 wars and Lankan/Maldivian operations.One reason why is that we have yet to integrate the services into a unified fighting machine /theatre commands,where the combined assets are used in ops regardless of service background.For example,look at how the RN and USMC used their Harriers in GW2 and Afghanistan.Air power whether operating out of an airfield or flat top are meant to deliver the goods.

The challenge now is to see that another Kargil does not take place on the Chinese border,given the highly rigid and sabre-rattling coming from the PRC right now over the island disputes with Japan and ASEAN maritime states.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Oct 2012 08:33

Philip wrote:The challenge now is to see that another Kargil does not take place on the Chinese border,given the highly rigid and sabre-rattling coming from the PRC right now over the island disputes with Japan and ASEAN maritime states.
As long as we continue to invest at the minimum levels we do today, unlikely PRC will risk a venture with India. For PRC venture to succeed, PRC would have to weaken us internally or exploit TSP to fight us. Do not think the current and likely "normal" trajectory will yield PRC anything on the border.

Let us see, what comes out of the Arun Singh committee report. There is talk a four star general to be appointed in the integration role. It is half assed and I do not like it, but still better than having nothing on the table.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Avik » 01 Oct 2012 11:09

The bravery of young officers , JCOs , NCOs, and ordinary sepoy was never in question
The question is about the out dated leadership thinking and co ordination, if the whole Kargil war was that simple episode like the Nathula exchange with PRC it would be not much to talk about.


Pentaiah : Dont know how much you really know about the Army, but the Army does not function like a bollywood phillum plot where the young turk throws away the shackles imposed by his elders to go forth and embrace the world!!
The plans , the axes of advance, the timing of attacks, the coordination with other combat elements, the arty, engr, signals support that precedes any battle requires tremendous staff work. The actual attack is the outcome of all the preparation that has gone in much before- a lot of that work, including formation leadership is carried out by senior officers from levels of Lt Colonel and above. To therefore, claim that only YOs , ORs and NCOs fought while the senior officers twiddled their thumbs in Badami Bagh or Udhampur or Delhi is really a piece of ghastly fiction. You sound very Pawki like since Pawkis claim that their young officers and soldiers fought very well in 65 while their senior leadership screwed up.
The same leadership that you diss, was imaginative enough to come up with plans like deploying three armr divs in parallel axes two years later.

The fact that senior officers were censured, a committee was formed to go into near debacle is ample evidence of failures at the top.

The IA and its leadership is not free of blemishes, but to somehow undertake a vault of imagination to say that the senior leadership was good for nothing in Kargil is really a reflection of ones ignorance about military matters

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby srin » 01 Oct 2012 20:02

Is it possible that if Army had its own CAS assets (attack helos, light fixed-wing aircraft) that it might have attempted to take care of things without Airforce or CCS fearing "escalation" ?

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby pentaiah » 01 Oct 2012 20:11

Please I never said good for nothing, and you have to do some research and read the Kargil reports
To exactly find out that what you say about co ordination, well though out and orchestrated response did not happen.....

Again I apologize for posting on this thread and breaking my reluctance to do so.
I will try better and harder not to go back to those days..
The last thing I do is watch the current crop of Bollywood movies,
Thank you though.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 01 Oct 2012 20:17

srin wrote:Is it possible that if Army had its own CAS assets (attack helos, light fixed-wing aircraft) that it might have attempted to take care of things without Airforce or CCS fearing "escalation" ?


the army would also have to have political clearance for its air mission

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya G » 02 Oct 2012 10:22

Should have taken approval - but would they? IMHO the long standing efforts by the Army to gain offensive power in its own air wing is to allow them more control and decision on deployment. Just like the Pak Army Aviation kept on supporting the NLI without PAF being involved at all.

Lalmohan wrote:
srin wrote:Is it possible that if Army had its own CAS assets (attack helos, light fixed-wing aircraft) that it might have attempted to take care of things without Airforce or CCS fearing "escalation" ?


the army would also have to have political clearance for its air mission

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Oct 2012 12:26

reading the recent paper, it suggests that there may have been incomplete understanding in the army about what the iaf cas assets can actually do in mountainous terrain, and the iaf's natural reluctance to commit to a mission that is difficult to deliver on
the army having cas assets of its own, may not have made that much difference in this scenario

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby keshavchandra » 08 Oct 2012 15:58


Kargil War : In the eyes of an eminent Pakistani Journalist, Mr. Najam Sethi
A very detailed explanation of the pakistan army's step by step planning and action.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby member_22872 » 09 Oct 2012 06:46

^^^ Does anyone know how we came to know about the conversational details between Mush and Gen. Aziz? was it the Chinese who tapped their conversation? Americans?

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby sum » 09 Oct 2012 08:32

^^ Why cant it be the Indians?

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Shrinivasan » 10 Oct 2012 00:13

sum wrote:^^ Why cant it be the Indians?
Correct, it could have been anyone... Amreeka, Chinese, Pakees, Ruskies or Yindoos. Everyone had an axe to grind here... there were enough elements within Pakee land who wanted to toast his Mush!!!

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2012 02:24

venug, During the kargil perfidy, the MUTU press indicated that it was the massa that provided the tapes. Now so far as we know mass goes on overdrive to protect any signs of TSP malfeasence. However that didn't stop the SLIME from claiming massa provided the tapes as Indians obviosuly cant do it!

Same BS was spouted during the 26/11 terrorist attack that massa taped the terrorists calls.

Much later it came to be revealed that those SIM cards were among a batch that were allowed to be purchased in India by known TSP fellow travellers.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby disha » 10 Oct 2012 04:48

venug wrote:^^^ Does anyone know how we came to know about the conversational details between Mush and Gen. Aziz? was it the Chinese who tapped their conversation? Americans?


Venug, it is always Massa who will provide the information to SDRE Yindoos to avoid full scale war., or some sort of world destroying event like a nukular flashbulb. They have the technology to snoop on all cell phones, land lines, sat phones, telegrams etc., they also have their CIA and other secret service intertwined with ISI.

Our intelligence agencies are always at the mercy of information from massaland and that will ensure any government in dilli can take ownership of sellout charge to Massa.

Thinking about it, the above is currently the best way. Just remind yourself of the following quote from Dr. Shiv:

Confucius say "Chinaman see photoshop, smile at inside seclet, and closs post arr over Internet. Indian see photoshop express surprise and let cat out of bag"

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2012 05:01

OK here is the incomparable K.P. Nayar(not the WKK Nayyar) writing in the Telegraph

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110216/j ... 589277.jsp

Indian intelligence intercepted a conversation between Musharraf and his chief of staff, Lieutenant General Mohammed Aziz, in which the latter was heard telling Musharraf, who was on a visit to Beijing, that the army’s Kargil conspiracy was proceeding as planned and that Sharif and his cabinet must not be allowed to scuttle those plans. India sent R.K. Mishra, a journalist and confidante of Brajesh Mishra, Vajpayee’s principal secretary, to Islamabad, accompanied by Vivek Katju, joint secretary for Pakistan in South Block, for the tapes to be played to Sharif.


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2012 05:11

And about the LGBs used in KArgil

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120206/j ... 098135.jsp

It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy.


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby saip » 10 Oct 2012 07:00

About those Kargil tapes I read somewhere that the recording on the Paki side was clearer than the Chinese side the implication being that it was recorded on the Paki side. Then I also heard of the criticism that we should have never publicized those tapes as by doing so we revealed our capabilities and alerted the pakis to them.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby member_22872 » 10 Oct 2012 07:13

ramana ji, disha ji:

If I remember, I read the news about Indian intelligence tapping the phones, if true, interesting, but not sure. SIM cards thing is new to me, sometimes God works in mysterious ways to help us.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby sum » 10 Oct 2012 08:16

SIM cards thing is new to me, sometimes God works in mysterious ways to help us.

Was extensively reported in DDM at that time:

Arrested J&K cop was ‘undercover agent’ who planted SIMs used by 26/11 attackers

Among the four policemen picked up by the Jammu & Kashmir Police for alleged links with militants is a man who as an “undercover agent” earlier “provided SIM cards to the Lashkar-e-Toiba, which were subsequently used by the militants involved in the 26/11 Mumbai attacks”.


The story of Mukhtar Ahmad Sheikh belongs to the murky world of counter-insurgency, in which the police have been infiltrating militant ranks with their moles to gather intelligence.

Sheikh, a resident of Rang Parestan in Rainawari, Srinagar, was made a ‘follower’ in the police after his brother — who the police considered a “valuable source” — was killed by militants. Before joining the police, Sheikh drove an autorickshaw in Kolkata.

Sheikh was soon promoted to the rank of constable for “exemplary work” in counter-insurgency. Sources said that he had worked with four top police officers, and played key roles in several major operations against militants.

After 26/11, the trail of SIM cards recovered from the militants killed in Mumbai led to Sheikh’s dramatic arrest in Delhi in December 2008.


As reported by The Indian Express on December 7 and 8, 2008, Sheikh had been on an undercover mission to infiltrate the Lashkar, and had successfully planted 22 SIM cards in the organisation — a few of which were used by the militants involved in the 26/11 attacks.

Information about these SIM cards, J&K Police had said, had been provided to the “concerned authorities” for keeping a watch three months prior to the Mumbai attacks.

Sheikh was released soon — especially after J&K Police protested, saying that his arrest had blown the lid off an “important undercover operation”.

Maybe the US loaned this constable from their ranks and provided required training too since SDREs are incapable of such cloak and dagger stuff.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby nachiket » 10 Oct 2012 08:36

saip wrote:
About those Kargil tapes I read somewhere that the recording on the Paki side was clearer than the Chinese side the implication being that it was recorded on the Paki side. Then I also heard of the criticism that we should have never publicized those tapes as by doing so we revealed our capabilities and alerted the pakis to them

This is an excerpt from one of B Raman's articles.
There are two kinds of telephone intercepts -- landline and mobile conversations inside a country and overseas calls through satellites. Interception of internal calls require the presence of a human agent in the telecommunications set-up of the targetted country to give technical access to the landline or mobile station. Any release of an intercepted internal call could endanger the human agent. Intelligence agencies therefore generally never do it. Interception of overseas calls do not require a human agent. The danger of exposure is less.


http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/27raman.htm

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Shrinivasan » 10 Oct 2012 17:48

^^^ Brilliant work by Mukthar bhai...
Taking Raman's writing along with the Hakleef people had about exposing the tapes points towards some deep mole who provided those tapes.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Oct 2012 18:54

we heard in recent articles on indian muj members being interrogated that the ISI and lashkar are now much more paranoid than usual about being infiltrated by raw agents. good! their efforts will be diverted into counter intel ops and they will continuously suspect each other, making for great team dynamics! they will suspect all their comms links, they will doubt their couriers... they will doubt each other
i'm lovin' it!

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2012 19:13

Jundal might be deep cover.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Shrinivasan » 10 Oct 2012 21:26

Lalmohan wrote:we heard in recent articles on indian muj members being interrogated that the ISI and lashkar are now much more paranoid than usual about being infiltrated by raw agents. good! their efforts will be diverted into counter intel ops and they will continuously suspect each other, making for great team dynamics! they will suspect all their comms links, they will doubt their couriers... they will doubt each other
i'm lovin' it!
so more green or green attacks... a continuous conflict of Pure vs Purer vs Purest... this needs to be encouraged... we need to credit every pig kill in Kashmir to amazing intelligence within Pakland mentioning assorted bases, villages, towns etc which would trigger purges and counter purges... loving it...

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Hari Sud » 12 Oct 2012 03:19

Gentlemen

Can somebody post the transcript of Najam Sethi's interview on Kargil operation.

He has some glaring errors & omissions, all in favour of Pakistan. After all he is a Pakistani too, although he may not like previous military government.

1. He says that Siachen jights were occupied by Pakistan prior to 1984. But that winter in 1984, Pakistani Army vacated the posts, which the Indian army quitely occupied during operation Meghdoot.

2. He does not give credit to Indian intelligence recording Aziz-Musharraf conversation during latter's visit to China. He thinks, it was taped by China, who gave it America and who in turn gave it to India.

3. He says that Pakistani Army never had chance to fight India in Kargil in 1999. Only less than 500 Pakistani NLI men had occupied the Kargil heights and kept one hundred thousand Indian troops busy.


The main thrust of the interview is hold Nawaz Sharrif blameless and put the blame on Musharraff.

I believe Nawaz knew as much as the Prime Minister got to know about military matters and he let the military men do the planning. Nawaz was looking for a bargaining chip to bargain with Vajpayee over Siachin. Political deniability was in built in the plan. If the things got out of hand, Nawaz will deny it. If Pakistani Army carried the day then Nawaz has a bargaining chip.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Prem » 16 Oct 2012 02:40

Kargil revisited — Imran Kureshi
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\10\15\story_15-10-2012_pg3_6

AThat it was a debacle/fiasco might be correct, but politically, we certainly aided it to be a fiasco. The fact is that tactically it was a brilliant plan; but unfortunately, not a far-sighted one (that was why the former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto is reported to have opposed it). The plan was that when the Indian forces left their Kargil positions for the winter, our Northern Light Infantry (NLI) would march in and occupy these, similar in action to what India did to us in Siachen. The pickets or bunkers in Kargil are so unassailable that India would have to admit defeat and we would bring India to the bargaining table. Indeed, when the NLI marched into these pickets without any resistance they found them well stocked with not only ammunition but also food. The bunkers were so well constructed with concrete and steel on strategic heights they were practically unassailable, especially when the steep slopes around them were mined. What was to be gained? There’s the rub. Of course, India refused to concede defeat or come to the bargaining table. The BJP government had to face elections. It launched an exaggerated propaganda campaign and refused even to acknowledge the defeats and frustration they were facing in their suicidal and ill-organised counteriattack. Thus the best we could hope for was to end up in something like the Siachen situation (but with more strategic territory), where nobody gains anything.

There were unofficial attempts to end the fighting, amongst which was the visit of a noted Indian journalist R K Mishra, and a respected diplomat, Vivek Katju to Islamabad. That was followed by a visit to New Delhi by Pakistan’s former foreign secretary; and then there was a proposal by the US that we endorsed, to send our foreign minister to Delhi (that eventually did not happen). Government also did its best to do crisis management to salvage the peace talks. These overtures sent an apologetic image to both outsiders and our own nation, showing that we too were against this operation. This attitude is the beginning of ensuring this incident to be a debacle.

Now regarding the question of ‘defeat’, the operation was tactically a resounding success. Operation Vijay launched by India was described mainly as a mopping up operation to dislodge the intruders; India lost 600 brave souls and 1,800 wounded. Our losses were 400 gallant jawans who lost their lives, which probably included many wounded who could not receive proper aid up there. Out of 134 pickets taken by the NLI, the Indian army could only vacate 14. The rest were still strongly held by the NLI when we withdrew (with ample ammunition and supplies, courtesy the Indian army). Regarding the famous victory of Tiger Hill by India, Mr Brian Cloughley in A History of the Pakistan Army writes that it was a very costly victory. It seems that we fell for the Indian propaganda as much as the Indians did. It was only a matter of time before the Indian public would have started feeling discontent about the number of casualties being sent home. And the biggest canard is people who claim we left our soldiers to be slaughtered after we sent the signal to withdraw. This is pure and utter rubbish. The withdrawal was organised and executed properly, with India breathing a sigh of relief. Those for what they are worth are the facts of Kargil:


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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Surya » 16 Oct 2012 03:19

yeah well organised retreat leaving behind lots of their own dead :eek:

sure sure


Cretins

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby member_22906 » 16 Oct 2012 09:39

Don't expect anything more from Pakis like Imran to give what they know best - BullS##t-itis...

Najam Sethi is a relatively more balanced political and current affairs commentator. If you follow his interviews (on youtube), he is candid enough to admit that Pakistan can't win a war against India. He has been on the wrong side of the Paki administration for sometime. Uncle wiki says, he had placed under house arrest few years back by ISI.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Oct 2012 10:16

Jhujar wrote:Kargil revisited — Imran Kureshi
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\10\15\story_15-10-2012_pg3_6

AThat it was a debacle/fiasco might be correct, but politically, we certainly aided it to be a fiasco. The fact is that tactically it was a brilliant plan; but unfortunately, not a far-sighted one (that was why the former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto is reported to have opposed it). The plan was that when the Indian forces left their Kargil positions for the winter, our Northern Light Infantry (NLI) would march in and occupy these, similar in action to what India did to us in Siachen. The pickets or bunkers in Kargil are so unassailable that India would have to admit defeat and we would bring India to the bargaining table. Indeed, when the NLI marched into these pickets without any resistance they found them well stocked with not only ammunition but also food. The bunkers were so well constructed with concrete and steel on strategic heights they were practically unassailable, especially when the steep slopes around them were mined. What was to be gained? There’s the rub. Of course, India refused to concede defeat or come to the bargaining table. The BJP government had to face elections. It launched an exaggerated propaganda campaign and refused even to acknowledge the defeats and frustration they were facing in their suicidal and ill-organised counteriattack. Thus the best we could hope for was to end up in something like the Siachen situation (but with more strategic territory), where nobody gains anything.

There were unofficial attempts to end the fighting, amongst which was the visit of a noted Indian journalist R K Mishra, and a respected diplomat, Vivek Katju to Islamabad. That was followed by a visit to New Delhi by Pakistan’s former foreign secretary; and then there was a proposal by the US that we endorsed, to send our foreign minister to Delhi (that eventually did not happen). Government also did its best to do crisis management to salvage the peace talks. These overtures sent an apologetic image to both outsiders and our own nation, showing that we too were against this operation. This attitude is the beginning of ensuring this incident to be a debacle.

Now regarding the question of ‘defeat’, the operation was tactically a resounding success. Operation Vijay launched by India was described mainly as a mopping up operation to dislodge the intruders; India lost 600 brave souls and 1,800 wounded. Our losses were 400 gallant jawans who lost their lives, which probably included many wounded who could not receive proper aid up there. Out of 134 pickets taken by the NLI, the Indian army could only vacate 14. The rest were still strongly held by the NLI when we withdrew (with ample ammunition and supplies, courtesy the Indian army). Regarding the famous victory of Tiger Hill by India, Mr Brian Cloughley in A History of the Pakistan Army writes that it was a very costly victory. It seems that we fell for the Indian propaganda as much as the Indians did.[b] It was only a matter of time before the Indian public would have started feeling discontent about the number of casualties being sent home.[/b] And the biggest canard is people who claim we left our soldiers to be slaughtered after we sent the signal to withdraw. This is pure and utter rubbish. The withdrawal was organised and executed properly, with India breathing a sigh of relief. Those for what they are worth are the facts of Kargil:



Anther Bullcrap, First it was unwashed Abdul Jihadis, now accept NLI but it was a defeat by the Politicans when TSPA was winning and not a miltary defeat, only 14 pickets out of 134 cleared, 600 Indians to 400 TFTA. Havent we seen such claims before like fighter ace Alam shooting 4 hunters in 30 seconds. Crap again, looks like 5 years from now someone in TSP will admit to 2500 causualties which Badmash had stated and how whe saved TSPA h&D>

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby SSridhar » 16 Oct 2012 13:36

Jhujar wrote:Kargil revisited — Imran Kureshi
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\10\15\story_15-10-2012_pg3_6

Look at the Pakiness of equating Kargil with Op. Meghdoot in Saltoro/Siachen and justifying the former on the basis of the latter. How much more ridiculous can a Paki get ? India did not walk into the positions vacated by the Pakistani troops in Siachen, unlike what the PA did in Kargil. India pre-empted the Pakistani move to capture illegally what rightfully belonged to India by virtue of the Karachi and Simla Agreements (leave aside the irrefutable fact that the whole of the erstwhile Princely State of J&K belongs to India anyway). Whereas troops were never stationed in Saltoro/Siachen before 1984, Kargil etc used to be occupied by Indian troops and Indian positions were well demarcated by the 1972 Simla Agreement when CFL was converted into LoC. The Kargil occupation by the NLI was a violation of bilateral treaty, an aggression, an act of war and a severe breach of trust by the PA. Siachen, OTOH, was also a perfidious attempt by Pakistan through cartographic aggression and an attempt to establish a de-facto control through the mechanism of fait accompli by allowing foreign mountaineering expeditions in an area that never belonged to it in the first place and belonged to India legally and even through bilateral agreements. This Paki author is trying to square off one Pakistani perfidy with another of its own and claiming through the skin of his teeth that the PA did unto India what the IA did (not) do into Pakistan. The article itself is a perfidy. Innermost Pakistaniyat in full flow.

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Re: Kargil War Thread - VI

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Oct 2012 17:03

the paqui strategy is that if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth...


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