Indian Army History Thread

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Mandeep » 02 Oct 2008 19:01

AMX-13s were not deployed as recce/recon tanks as opposed to main equipment with Indian armoured regiments. They were the main equipment with 2 regiments, 8 Cavalry and 20 Lancers. The tanks in question are from 'C' (Rajput) Squadron, 20 Lancers deployed in Chhamb during the 1965 War where they put up a great performance against the much superior Pakistani Patton tanks. Earlier a detachment from the Sikh Squadron had done well in Ladakh against the Chinese in 1962.

The water course is the Munnawar Tawi not the Ravi River.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2008 23:36

Is there a listing of the Minister of State/Deputy Minister for Defence since 1947? I think there is something in that post.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby malushahi » 07 Oct 2008 22:19

Nice article on the third batch at IMA (in 1948)

http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20081024252109100.htm


Brothers in arms


LYLA BAVADAM


Gentlemen Cadets of the IMA’s Third Regular Course, which celebrated its Diamond Jubilee recently, take a walk down memory lane.


CAMARADERIE, goodwill and an overwhelming sense of lives lived well were in abundance at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the Third Regular Course of the Indian Military Academy (IMA) in Dehra Dun. The Third Course has a unique history and the stories told by its officers go beyond personal recollections and experiences. At one level they are historical anecdotes and at another they are part of a collective memory that binds the former Gentlemen Cadets together.

The meeting of more than 60 officers and their families at the IMA on September 12 went beyond a social gathering. It was a celebration of those who had served during a historical juncture in India’s past. Hundred and eighty-five cadets were commissioned from the IMA on September 12, 1948. The numbers would have been larger, but 67 of their course mates had opted for Pakistan and finished their training at the newly created Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) in Kakul.

The Third Course was shaped by historical events in which it could not help but be immersed. It was the smallest batch ever to graduate from the IMA because of Partition. The uniqueness of the course is also seen in its truncated duration: it was cut short from two years to 21 months in response to urgent military needs of the country and a shortfall of officers in the Army. On passing out, the cadets immediately joined battalions and regiments at the front line. Moreover, while still in training they were deployed for patrolling and suppression of violent activities. Indeed, the IMA is believed to be the only military academy in the world that has used its cadets for maintaining internal security.

The history of the Third Course is closely linked with Partition. About 800 metres down the road from the IMA was a camp of about 10,000 Sikh and Hindu refugees from Pakistan. In the week after Independence, anti-Muslim riots began in Dehra Dun and the IMA suddenly found itself involved in preserving internal security. Lieutenant General Mathew Thomas of the Third Course recalls cadets patrolling on foot and in Bren gun carriers, carrying out ambushes, from August to September 1947.

By October, life in the Academy returned to normal. Some cadets had opted for Pakistan but would leave only after they completed their course. The British officers were making plans for their repatriation. But then there was another bombshell. Lt. Gen. Thomas recounted it thus: “It appeared that the fledgling Pakistani government had made representations to [General] Auchinleck regarding the safety of its cadets at the IMA. There was the possibility of hostilities breaking out between the two countries, and they [the Pakistani authorities] felt they could no longer leave them at Dehra Dun. Auchinleck could not deny their request.”

The transfer of the officers and cadets to Pakistan was codenamed Operation Exodus and remained cloaked in secrecy until the last minute. Colonel Giridhari Singh of the Third Course, and later founder of a business conglomerate, recalled the moment when the cadets were watching a hockey match and “Brigadier Barltrop, the Commandant, entered the field from the goal end and signalled to the umpire, Major Wilson, to see him. We knew at once that all was not well.” It was 5 p.m. on October 17, 1947, when all the cadets were told of the plan. It was met with stunned silence. Eight hours later, after midnight, the Pakistani contingent moved out of the IMA gates with a few belongings (the rest were sent on later) and drove to the Saharanpur air base where 10 Dakotas of the 31 Squadron of the Royal Air Force flew them to Lahore.

The parting was hurried but emotional. Giridhari Singh says he “remembered Captain Gilani addressing us with tears streaming down his face”. And Thomas remembers “emotional farewells, exchange of gifts, borrowings of suitcases and promises to keep in touch… Sadly these were to end in smoke because the two dominions would soon be at war.” The departure of 67 cadets – 66 Muslims and one Christian – was carried out with such secrecy that the next morning the bearers were surprised to see their Gentlemen Cadets missing.

Partition also divided the IMA’s assets. The guideline was a 70:30 ratio between India and Pakistan. This Herculean task had its lighter moments. Major Tikka Khan, one of the instructors, was given the task of dividing the library. When he came to the encyclopaedias, Tikka Khan suggested that every alternate volume be given to Pakistan. Fortunately the idea was recognised as absurd and the encyclopaedia sets were divided more sensibly. That is just one story about Khan, better known as the Butcher of Bangladesh (and later the Butcher of Baluchistan) and infamous for atrocities such as throwing infants up into the air and catching them on bayonets as they fell.

Trouble on the northern borders and a shortfall of Army officers resulted in the Indian government pushing for the Third Course to be commissioned even earlier than December 1948. A compromise date was reached and 185 cadets passed out of the IMA on September 12, 1948. Most of the newly commissioned officers went straight into action. Those in the Infantry were sent to Kashmir. Those in the Armoured Corps saw action in Operation Polo for the liberation of Hyderabad.

The India-Pakistan war of 1971 brought the IMA and PMA course mates together again. At that time Lt. Gen. H. Kaul was commanding an armoured brigade in the western sector. By the time ceasefire was declared, Kaul knew that the Pakistani brigade commander was a former Third Course mate. Still camped along the Bein river, Kaul sent word inviting him to lunch. A while later Kaul saw a white flag approaching. It was a Pakistani second lieutenant who said the brigade commander would be unable to accept the invitation. He had apparently been removed from command. Many months later, Kaul was commanding a division in Madhya Pradesh when he got to know that another Third Course mate was in a PoW (prisoner of war) camp in Jabalpur. “I met him and took him out to lunch. We went without an escort since we met as friends and he treated me like a brother,” he recalled.

Others of the Third Course relate similar incidents. Brigadier Balbir Singh Dayal describes how the Third Course kinship helped during the post-1971 delineation of the line of control in the Kargil sector. Dayal says he found the Pakistani sector commander to be “officious” until a point when he suddenly smiled and asked if Dayal was from the Third Course. Once this was established, Dayal says he and the Pakistani officer, Brigadier Safdar Hussain Khan, reminisced about the IMA while young officers of both sides looked on in amazement. The atmosphere in subsequent meetings had “genuine comradeship and fellow feeling… and this amicability and understanding due to the common bond of the Third Course helped in a successful and extremely satisfactory delineation work in the northern sector of Jammu and Kashmir,” said Dayal.

The two officers did their bit in keeping up the spirit that their Commandant Brig. A.B. Barltrop had urged when he announced the partition of the IMA in a Special Order of the Day dated October 14, 1947.

He wrote: “I should like to say a word about the future relations between the Pakistan and the Indian Military Academies. All cadet training establishments the world over have a natural affinity, and it is consequently essential that there should exist between the PMA and the IMA a state of close cooperation and friendship. I am convinced that the officer cadre of both armies have a great part to play in restoring the happy human relationships which are so sorely needed in this country and which have deteriorated so sadly and inevitably as a result of the events of the past two weeks.”

The Third Course has done its alma mater proud, producing 12 Lieutenant Generals, 22 Major Generals, 10 Param Vishisht Seva Medals, five Mahavir Chakras (one posthumous), 15 Ati Vishisht Seva Medals, five Vishisht Seva Medals, three Vir Chakras, two Sena Medals and one Padma Shree. There have been two Army commanders, two commandants of the IMA and one Governor.

The cadets who left for Pakistan formed the First Course of the PMA. Gentleman Cadet No. 391 at the IMA, who became Cadet No. 1 at the PMA, Rahim Uddin Khan, rose to the rank of General and became Joint Chief of Staff in Pakistan and, later, Governor of one of the provinces. Lt. Gen. Saeed Qadir became a Minister and a Senator. Captain Shakir Ullah Durrani became the Governor of Islamabad.

The officers who had left also had successful careers. Major Tikka Khan became the Chief of Army Staff and Major A.B. Rahman became the Governor of Punjab, Pakistan.•

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 15 Oct 2008 07:02

Image

Hav Baz Singh of the Dogra Regiment lobbing a grenade into a stranded Patton tank to ensure it was 'clear'

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby JaiS » 17 Oct 2008 03:20

Has this been posted here before ?

Indian Army Quarterly List for 1 January 1912

About Indian Army Quarterly List for 1 January 1912

The information in this database was compiled from the book, The Quarterly Indian Army List for January 1, 1912 by Army Head-Quarters, India, 1 January 1912, printed by Superintendent Government Printing, India, Calcutta, 1912. This book contains a listing of over 40,000 names of British and Indian troops during the British control of India. The British troops seem to contain only the officers of the various units (example: Bengal Lancers) while the Indian listings seem to contain the officers and enlisted, though I am not familiar with the ranks. Apologies are made in advance for any incorrect breakdown of names as I am not that familiar with the naming patterns in India.

Debra Graden of Leavenworth, Kansas, indexed this book. The quality of printing in this book was rather splotchy and often portions of letters are missing and margins were minimal.Ancestry.com regrets to inform you that Debra Graden passed away unexpectedly. Photocopies of the original data will no longer be available upon request. We are grateful to Debra for the long hours she contributed to making her databases such useful resources to so many people.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 18 Oct 2008 11:35

Here's some images from the 1971 war for adding to the collection:

The ordinary Indian soldier:

Image


The Indian advance into East Pakistan:

Image


Indian Artillery in the Khemkharan Sector:

Image


Evacuating a wounded Pakistani soldier while other Indian troops advance into East Pakistan:

Image


Inspecting an abandoned Pakistani Army Defensive line near Jessore in East Pakistan:

Image


-Vivek

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 18 Oct 2008 11:58

Some more Pics from 71:

The Indian advance in the East: the first few days of the war...
Indian soldiers advance while streams of refugees escape from the fighting into India

Image


KIA: Pakistani soldiers killed in action in East Pakistan trying to resist the Indian advance...

Image


Indian soldiers march towards the frontlines in Jammu:

Image


While in the east the Indian tanks rumble towards Dacca:

Image


A bridge destroyed by retreating Pakistani forces as Indian Forces approach...

Image


-Vivek

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 18 Oct 2008 12:05

General Aurora during a press conference in Calcutta

Image


Surrendered Pakistani troops being marched to the rear by their Indian captors:

Image


Another group of POW being driven to the rear in a lorry...

Image


Indian soldiers being greeted by Bengalis in East Pakistan:

Image


Bengali boys greet Indian soldiers in what by then had become Bangladesh...

Image

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 26 Oct 2008 01:33

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7666985.stm

These are some rare pictures of the India-Pakistan war of 1965. The photographs were taken by Indian photo-journalist Kulwant Roy who covered the war extensively. (Photos: Aditya Arya archive)

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 26 Oct 2008 01:52

Image

Looks like an attempt to re-create the Iwo Jima photo? One of the officers in another of the photos is Lt Col R S Dayal - so the whole set of photos seem to be from the Haji Pir Pass Operation

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby kit » 26 Oct 2008 11:04


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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 26 Oct 2008 11:20


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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby sum » 26 Oct 2008 20:37

Looks like an attempt to re-create the Iwo Jima photo? One of the officers in another of the photos is Lt Col R S Dayal - so the whole set of photos seem to be from the Haji Pir Pass Operation

Was all this operation of no use finally since these were returned due to the Tashkent agreement?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 26 Oct 2008 20:51

Yes, it was returned after tashkent. the alternative was to have let the Pakistani army sit in the indian territory they occupied at chamb/jaurian and khemkaran.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 Oct 2008 00:39


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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Oct 2008 14:56

some sources suggest that a lot of arm twisting was done at tashkent to get both sides to agree - to satisfy a greater superpower conflict agenda

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby sonam_kapadia » 11 Nov 2008 07:11

Some Regimental history on the raising of the 4/3 Gorkha Rifles.

http://www.nawang.com/raising.htm

I have posted this in Multi-media but it seems more relevant here.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Nov 2008 06:55

Lalmohan wrote:some sources suggest that a lot of arm twisting was done at tashkent to get both sides to agree - to satisfy a greater superpower conflict agenda


At that time, we in India thought it was this arm-twisting, which resulted in India returning areas such as Haji Pir that had been won at great cost, that caused the heart attack, and resulting death, of PM Lal Bahadur Shastri.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby vsudhir » 19 Nov 2008 16:40

They fought to the last man for India

A '62 revisit of the legendary Razang La battle where 114 soldiers of the 13th Kumaon fought to the last man and the last bullet against a giant invading PLA force. Also earnt Maj Shaitan Singh his PVC.

Great read, IMHO.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby rajkhalsa » 19 Nov 2008 18:14

X-Posting here


Google has started archiving of Life magazine's entire photo archive. Apparently the vast majority of these images have not been published, and go back as far as the 1860s. The resource is a goldmine for people interested in history, and the images come under the fair use agreement.


Their archive of photos of the 1962 Sino-Indian war is by far the most comprehensive I've ever seen, and in impressively high resolution. Here are just ten photos of it from the ~150 the archive holds:

Indian Army soldiers during the conflict with China.
Image

An Indian military policeman, on the Northeast frontier, during the Red Chinese invasion of that border area.
Image

Indian Army soldiers.
Image

Gun being used by troops in fighting the Red Chinese in the mountains of Assam.
Image

Refugee from Tibet.
Image

Citizens watching as the indian Army passes through their town.
Image

The Indian Army training for the boarder conflict with China.
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Women trainees holding rifles, during the conflict with China.
Image

A truck convoy on it's way to the Northeast border-Red China front.
Image

A US plane dropping supplies to Indian troops, during the border war with Red China.
Image

I'm sure the archive of India's other wars are just as impressive. I've found it is easiest using general keywords and the decade when searching.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 20 Nov 2008 04:39

fantastic find! rajkhalsa - thanks for posting these

found some more great color pics when i searched for "india" and "front"

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 20 Nov 2008 05:53

Search on Hyderabad to find some great shots of the Nizam's Army and Razakars during the Police Action of Sept 48

Search on New India to see shots of HAL's Vampire and Prentice assembly line, including some colour shots.

great treasure trove of pics.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby vivek_ahuja » 20 Nov 2008 08:09

Jagan wrote:fantastic find! rajkhalsa - thanks for posting these

found some more great color pics when i searched for "india" and "front"


Some of those color images from the 62 war are a powerful and poignant reminder.

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Re: History and Culture of Leadership in the Indian Army

Postby Dmurphy » 22 Nov 2008 21:41

Dont know if this post belongs here...but its a must read

They fought to the last man for India

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Re: History and Culture of Leadership in the Indian Army

Postby Sontu » 22 Nov 2008 22:12

Dmurphy wrote:Dont know if this post belongs here...but its a must read

They fought to the last man for India


Thanks Dmurphy for this post .
Things to mark..
Unanswered questions

Forty-six years later, the question remains still unanswered: why did we have to fight a war, and why was it that the brave 114 soldiers of the 13th Kumaon had to offer their supreme sacrifice fighting till the 'last man and last bullet' in sub-zero temperature (minus 15 degrees Celsius) at Rezang La on November 18, 1962? What were the causes of that war and what happened afterwards? Who remembers them except a few ex-soldiers and the patriotic crowd at Rewari (Haryana), hometown of most of the martyred Ahirs who had fought at Rezang La? Why does no politician think it a matter of honour to send his children to join the army? Why do we have an important road in Delhi named after Krishna Menon, the disgraced defence minister of the '62 war, and nothing significant to honour the men who gave their lives to save India in Chushul?

Do we have any answers ?

Regards,

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 23 Nov 2008 00:03

An unofficial song by a soldier of the Vikas Regiment aka SFF

http://www.tibetwrites.org/?Not-their-own-wars

Hum hai Vikasi, tibbat wasi
Desh ki shyan bharayenghye

Jab jab humki milega moka
Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

Hum hai vikasi
Chin ne humse chean ke tibbat
Ghar se hame nikala hae
Phirbi bharat ne humko Even then,
Apno ki tara sambhala hae
Ekna Ek din chin ko bhi hum
Nako channe chabayenghye
Jab jab hum ko milega moka
Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

Sichan glaciar main humko
Moka mila dubara hai
Hamare vir jawano ko
Nahin koyi bhi gum
Kargil hoya Bangladesh
Himmat kabhi na hare hum
Jab jab hum ko milega moka
Jaan pe khel dekhayenghye

Jahan hamara mahel potala
Norbu lingka pyara hai
Pujya dalai lama singhasan
Tabse hi nyara hai
Yad karo aun viron ko
Jisne diya balidan hai
Au milkar gayen hum
Jai hamara Tibbat Jai
Jai hamara Tibbat Jai
Jai Hamara Tibbat Jai


TRANSLATION
We are the Vikasi, dwellers of Tibet
We will strengthen the pride of the country

Whenever opportunities arise
we will play with our lives.

We are the Vikasi
The Chinese snatched Tibet from us
and kicked us out from our home
Even then, India
kept us like their own
One day, surely one day
we will teach the Chinese a lesson
Whenever opportunities arise
we will play with our lives

In the Siachen glacier
we got our second chance
Our young martyrs
have no sadness whatsoever
Whether it is Kargil or Bangladesh
we will not lose our strength
Whenever opportunities arise
we will play with our lives

Where there is our Potala Palace
and lovely Norbu Lingka
The throne of the Dalai Lama
was dear even then
Remember those martyrs of ours
who sacrificed with their lives
Let’s sing together
Hail to our Tibet!
Hail to our Tibet!
Hail to our Tibet!




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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2008 23:15

What do folks think of the Osprey Publishing's series on India?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 24 Dec 2008 15:08

someone, probably baljeet was looking for pics/videos of pak POWs of '71 war.

here is a short snippet.

[youtube]gnfbsBI7guc&feature=related[/youtube]

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 24 Dec 2008 23:02

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5264/04ja7.jpg

Which artillery piece is this?

Also the US air dropped supplies after the war right? Not before it?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 24 Dec 2008 23:53

Aditya G wrote:http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5264/04ja7.jpg

Which artillery piece is this?

Also the US air dropped supplies after the war right? Not before it?


The 25 Pounder gun of WW2 fame.

Yes the american airlift help came after the war and not during.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rishi » 25 Dec 2008 01:03

The Aurora puzzle and other images of Indian leaders in 1971
Afsan Chowdhury

Of the more interesting encounters that I have had with players of the 1971 war, General Jagjit Singh Aurora would be one. I was doing a radio series for the BBC radio on 1971 and in this connection I went to India in 2003. I met different kinds of people and some were easy to connect while some were difficult to pin down. The late J.N. Dixit, India's foreign policy guru, was very welcoming and despite his robust reputation as a hawk, he came across as much more mild than I had expected. At his Delhi residence he was very hospitable and on one matter what he said seemed quite intriguing. He claimed that more Muslims than Hindus had crossed over to India. This was rather unexpected information going by conventional wisdom though he gave his reasons firmly. I did play that interview on air and it received some protests as well. But then Dixit was in charge of the refugees in 1971 and in a later phone call to him from Dhaka, he stood his ground and was even a bit brusque. I put all the angles and views on air but I still wish there was more thorough research on this issue.
Pranab Mukherjee and his Congress Party was then out of power. However, as a Bengali junior Minister in 1971, I expected some quality information and he had in fact agreed to the interview eagerly. He was the first on my list. However, as soon as I put down the tape recorder and everything down and after polite small talks asked about 1971, he said that he couldn't answer any questions as he was a member of the cabinet in 1971 and thus was under an oath of secrecy.
I was quite dumbstruck as Indians in general are willing to discuss their finest hour and it was more than three decades back but that's how it stood that evening. We descended into uncomfortable small talk and at one point I asked, if he could say anything that would not be a breach. So he stated a few things which weren't great secrets but it was interesting. Like he had gone on a mission to different countries of the world arguing the case for India but even the pro-Indian countries had said that they didn't want an end to 'Pakistan' or that they wanted West Pakistan intact. Well, that wasn't bad and after a few more quotes I thought it wasn't a total loss. Interestingly, the only other person who used the same argument to refuse an interview to my Kolkata colleague Kalpana Prodhan was the man in charge of West Bengal in 1971, then under presidential rule, Siddharta Shankar Roy. Why both the two major Bengali politicians refused to discuss 1971 I'll never know.

Arundhati, Mujib Bahini and KB Lal
One Bengali official who readily agreed to talk was Ambassador Arundhati Roy, India's iconic envoy to the UN when it turned down the CTBT or nuclear treaty. She was then a member of the Indian PSC, a constitutional post, in a cavernous colonial building and talked freely about the days of 1971. She was a junior official but she had good connections with the politicians who later formed the Mujib Bahini. Her observations were interesting rather than significant but it did show the fissures and cracks both within Mujibnagar but also hinted at the ones within the Indian Foreign Ministry. She also put me in touch with the Defense Secretary of India in 1971, K.B. Lal, who was much past 80 years, very ailing but so formidable a person that the venerable diplomat and PSC member forbade me to ever divulge to him that it was she who had given me his telephone number.
K.B. Lal, all the things above and as warned, had a razor sharp mind. I am amazed at the way he spelt out all that had happened. He didn't divulge any super secret but used the same intelligence and wit as he must have to ensure that India was battle ready to describe the complex nature of the war. He was not responsible for designing the war strategy but making sure that supply, co-ordination and policy were in harmony. He spelt out the real politik of international politics that year which it seems was not just better than that of Pakistan, but that of the US too. Maybe the then Soviet Union even was painted into a diplomatic corner and forced to be a closer friend of India than it wished to be.
There were several other Indian officials who provided information and analyses like Subramaniam, Rai and others but as I went from one interview to another I was searching for Gen. Aurora and coming across a blank wall. It was quite intriguing. How I thought was India's most well known field commander not be in touch with the army? Yet he seemed almost invisible. A contact in the Indian army liaison office went so far as to tell me that his latest address was unknown.
My journalist friends also tried but couldn't locate him. Finally, I was rescued by my friend Wasi Ahmed, then at the Bangladesh High Commission. Apparently, Bangladesh was in touch with him and a few phone calls later we had an appointment.
Aurora and his missing medals
Gen. Aurora lived in the older, aristocratic part of New Delhi. When I rang the bell the caretaker and cook opened the door and I saw smack ahead of me on the wall the blown up picture of that moment which we all recognize, the moment of the surrender of Pakistan to the Joint forces. Niazi was signing his surrender and Aurora was happily accepting that. At that moment time, history and the people all stood still in their extreme misery or joy, depending on who it was.
He was enfeebled now and the recent passing of his wife had greatly affected him. Others planned, executed and led the war but he fought it and was there forever as a witness to surrender.
The interview was nothing spectacular but he made a number of points including the difficulty of planning a war in a much unknown terrain, the role of the Mukti Bahini as an assisting force, the military plan to victory by taking Dhaka etc. He talked about Niazi as well and though both were Punjabi, didn't seem overtly fond of him as some claim.
He came across as a conventional military mind with a sense of military superiority. In the usual post-interview small talk, he stated that civilian politicians shouldn't meddle with the military. Oddly, he mentioned Sheikh Mujib as an example of fiddling with or ignoring the military and paying a price. Did he mean that by raising the Rakkhi Bahini, Mujib had belittled the mainstream army and paid a price? I didn't pursue it as it was a whole sector.
We shook hands and departed but I kept thinking what had made this man a pariah of sorts in the Indian establishment mainstream? He told me that he had joined the Akali Dal, the party of the Sikhs along with several top Sikh military officials after Operation Bluestar or attack on Sikhdom's holiest temple, the Golden temple. Operation Bluestar saw his 1971 colleague Gen. Sahbeg Singh fight Indian forces and die. But the problems had a longer history, it seemed.
The question was, what was the reward given to Aurora for his great achievement? The more I dug the less I was sure. The General had not been given a single gallantry award for his 1971 achievement. This was to me a shock. Of course, Pakistan's Gen. Niazi makes a song and dance about it in his book but for his own self-serving reasons. Yet, could they be true?
One response that came from a journalist covering military matters was even more intriguing. Apparently, he said, there were some looting and other incidents after the Dhaka surrender which resulted from a breakdown of military discipline. Indira Gandhi, India's triumphant Prime Minister, was furious at Aurora for having allowed it to happen and tarnishing India's image. Refusal to give him a medal for war efforts was his punishment.
Who knows what the fact was but we do know that something went wrong and even the sweetest military victory of India turned somewhat sour for one and many. I am glad I took his and the interview of others and they remain as records.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 25 Dec 2008 01:17

. The General had not been given a single gallantry award for his 1971 achievement. This was to me a shock. Of course, Pakistan's Gen. Niazi makes a song and dance about it in his book but for his own self-serving reasons. Yet, could they be true?

..................

India's triumphant Prime Minister, was furious at Aurora for having allowed it to happen and tarnishing India's image. Refusal to give him a medal for war efforts was his punishment.


Can someone tell the writer that Aurora was awarded the Padma Bhushan for his war service? Sam got the Padma Vibhushan as well as the CAS and CNS. Officers at the C-in-C level got the Padma Bhushan.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 20 Jan 2009 08:18

Some Kargil Pics - from the book "Heroes of Kargil"

Image
9 Para (SF)

Image
Stingers - two of em

Image
One of which makes its way here

Image
Image
One of the seven POWs - from the images, both look like the same guy

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Khalsa » 20 Jan 2009 09:17

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=49cfb6627f121e7b&q=india%20china%201960s%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dindia%2Bchina%2B1960s%2Bsource:life%26start%3D90%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

I Like this picture of an "unidentified Indian Army Official" ...... LOL. :rotfl:
I guess very few outside India know of our Sam Bhadur !!

A soldier's soldier.
The finest leader of the Gurkha Regiment and one of the most profilic leaders of the Indian Army.

Love the Image.... The fire in his eyes is so well captured.... yet the calm on his face.
Great find of his image from 62

BR needs to buy this ... :D

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby sum » 20 Jan 2009 09:23

Amazing pics, Jagan sir.

Were these stingers ever sent to DRDO for some "in-depth studies" and possible help in indigenous development?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Jagan » 20 Jan 2009 09:42

sum wrote:
Were these stingers ever sent to DRDO for some "in-depth studies" and possible help in indigenous development?


I hope so. Though these pics are not the first we have seen of Stingers from Kargil. I have two pictures downloaded from the Kargil days.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby HariC » 20 Jan 2009 20:20

is there a way to tell if those stingers are still live or have been fired already? with the pakis having fired dozens, there should be more of them around.

By the way the colonel in the group photo is Col Lalit Suri

http://beacononline.wordpress.com/2008/ ... ion-vijay/

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 28 Jan 2009 15:20

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/dis ... extfeature

Requiem for the Tigers
Oct 17th 1987
From The Economist print edition

FROM OUR CORRESPONDENTS IN COLOMBO AND DELHI

THE Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka are facing extinction. Like the great beasts they named themselves after, they were fighting tooth and claw this week against the Indian soldiers sent to disarm them, but it was a losing fight. They were outnumbered, outgunned, running out of supplies and, with the Indians blocking every exit, had no place to retreat to. Guerrillas are no match for orthodox battalions in a pitched battle, the sort that was taking place in the Tigers' stronghold in Jaffna. By Thursday it was estimated that maybe 300 Tigers had been killed, for the death of 57 Indians. Never before in Sri Lanka's civil war had the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, to give the guerrillas their formal name, taken such punishment.

To the interested outsider, and the optimistic insider, it had seemed this summer that Sri Lanka's war was as good as over. On July 29th President Junius Jayewardene and the Indian prime minister, Mr Rajiv Gandhi, signed an agreement that promised to bring peace to the island.

The Tamil guerrillas would lay down their arms. A contingent of the Indian army would keep the peace between the country's Tamil minority and its Sinhalese majority in the blood-stained north-east, where the two communities intermingle. In return the Northern and Eastern provinces, where most Tamils live, would be merged and given a degree of autonomy; the old Eastern province, where the Tamils account for a smaller share of the population than in the north, would later have a chance to say whether it liked this new arrangement. The guerrillas, unlike most Tamils, had wanted a state of their own. Nevertheless, they seemed to have won a pretty good deal. What went wrong?

This week's confrontation began with the suicide of 15 Tigers who had been detained in Jaffna by Sri Lankan soldiers on October 3rd. They swallowed cyanide pills after being told they were being taken to the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo, where they believed they would be tortured. In retaliation, their comrades killed eight Sri Lankan soldiers who had been taken prisoner, then went on the rampage in the east-coast town of Batticaloa, where they butchered some 100 Sinhalese men, women and children. The Indians, stung at last into action, then set out, on October 10th, to destroy the Tigers as a guerrilla organisation.

In retrospect, it seems likely that the suicides could have been prevented. The Indians wanted the captives kept in Jaffna, believing that the decision to send them to Colombo had been taken by people who wanted to sabotage the peace agreement. The cyanide pills were in capsules around the Tigers' necks and could probably have been taken from them. But if this incident had not set off the Tigers, would they not have reacted violently to something else? The massacre of the Batticaloa innocents was a hysterical act by men incapable of compromise.

The Indians clearly miscalculated. They thought they could convert the Tigers from terrorists into politicians. The Indian high commissioner in Sri Lanka, Mr J.N. Dixit, believed he was on the right track when he got the Tigers to agree to accept almost half (on some disputed accounts, a majority) of the seats on the interim council that is to run the new, merged province. In the end, India's gentle handling of the Tigers proved a failure. Many Tigers had no taste for the agreement in the first place, and decades of mistrust and suspicion did not dispose them to listen to reason once it had been signed. They could not in their hearts abandon the aim of a separate state, and were going to kill and die for it as many of them have this week.

The Indians have found themselves sucked into doing a job that the Sri Lankan army was not—by India—allowed to do earlier. The 5,000 Indian soldiers who came to the island in August have now become 15,000. In Jaffna they have claimed to be using their heavy weapons sparingly, to protect civilian lives, and offensive air power not at all. The only aircraft over Jaffna seem to have been Sri Lankan ones on freelance missions. Officially, all of Sri Lanka's armed forces were confined to barracks.

When they have won the battle of Jaffna, will the Indians win the propaganda battle that is part of it? The Tigers say the Indian troops have committed atrocities. This is almost certainly part of their desperate attempt to drum up support abroad, especially in India's southern state of Tamil Nadu, which is home to 50m Tamils. Another sign of desperation was a reported offer on October 13th by the Tigers' leader, Mr Velupillai Prabhakaran, to talk peace if the Indians would call off their offensive. They were never likely to do that. They wanted to finish the Tigers once and for all. Another truce, followed by another outbreak of fighting, and the Indians could become as hated by the Jaffna Tamils as Sri Lankan soldiers are.

For the present they are not. Many of the Indian soldiers are themselves Tamils, from regiments recruited in the south of India. This helps to account for the relatively mild protest the Indian army's offensive has drawn in Tamil Nadu, from which the Tigers have in the past received arms, money and moral support.

In Delhi there have been the inevitable quivers about "another Vietnam". The opposition Bharatiya Janata party has asked for parliament to be convened immediately for a debate on Sri Lanka. The government is being blamed for not thoroughly disarming the Tigers as soon as the peace agreement had been signed. But there is widespread support for Mr Gandhi's decision to be, at last, tough with the Tigers. Many Indians began to lose enthusiasm for the Tigers last month, when they killed more than 100 fellow Tamils belonging to rival organisations. The subsequent massacre of Sinhalese in Batticaloa confirmed the new scepticism.

The Indian soldiers in Sri Lanka are not there simply on a mercy mission, if that is the right phrase. The regional superpower will not allow persistent instability in its small southern neighbour, if that threatens to spread over the water into Tamil Nadu or to give other powers an opportunity to intervene. This is India's backyard. Few Sri Lankans, Tamils or Sinhalese, have yet recognised this reality of the subcontinent's politics.

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India's forgotten soldiers

Postby arama » 16 Feb 2009 06:00

Despite this neglect, the ordeal of Indians as prisoners of war was as severe as those of the less numerous British and Australian troops who were captured in the fall of South-East Asia. Unlike their British and Australian comrades, they have not published memoirs, nor have they been the subject of historical works. They therefore remain substantially neglected.


Fought with the British in the war against Japan in Singapore, shipped to New Guinea as labor still retained the spirit as soldiers, the real unknown soldiers whose pride remained unbroken after 3 years of hardship.

http://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j37/indians.asp

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Neela » 22 Feb 2009 03:09

Was looking at Google maps to find the Vattakottai fort . Apparently this fort played a role in the Battle of Colachel , which in turn led to permanent eviction of the Dutch East India Company.

The Nair Pattalam became the 9th Battalion of the Madras Regiment


The Battle of Colachel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Colachel
The key element of the Raja's army was his personal army, known as the Travancore Nair Brigade or locally known as the Nair Pattalam. This unit was later integrated into the Indian Army as the 9th Battalion of the Madras Regiment in 1954, and it recently celebrated its tercentenary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Battal ... s_Regiment

I must add this. The view from the fort and the beach is spectacular!! I picked a massive conch from the beach when I was ~10 years old.


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