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Indian Army History Thread

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 19:25

dinesh_kimar wrote:On This day, fifty years ago, the GOC of 17 Mountain Division, Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh (then a Major General) disobeyed orders and refused to vacate the strategic Nathu La pass in Sikkim, as demanded by the Chinese......and agreed to by certain Indian "higher ups".

At the time, India was not a nuclear power (though China was !), and had recently suffered a humiliating defeat in Chinese hands.More importantly, Gen. Sagat Singh did not have support from his Corps Commander. Undeterred, he carefully positioned his Infantry and artillery assets, ensured proper communication of his various field units (VK's excellent Blog),briefed and mobilized the men under his command...............and hit the Chinese!!!

The Chinese soon joined in an ugly battle.However in the face of the well prepared and brave Indian Soldiers of 17th Mountain Division (Jats, Rajputs and Gurkhas) , the Chinese suffered about 300 causalities and eventually called a cease fire. They realized that the Indian Army was no push over.

For his tenacity, stubbornness, and for doing the right thing for his country though his bosses did not support him, a thousand pranams from me to the great soul, one of India's boldest and most innovative soldiers', Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh.


Dinesh, my thanks for posting this. You have recounted one small aspect of what Gen Sagat Singh did. He was one of the main architects of the 71 victory - against orders again ! http://www.rediff.com/news/special/gene ... 161208.htm

He is one of India's legendary generals including PS Bhagat, Harbaksh Singh, Hanut Singh who not only scripted brilliant victories but were men of such high moral fibre and total commitment that even today they are revered. None of them got their due - Bhagat due to the government and the other two due to jealous superiors. Hanut sir and Sagat sir were our finest battlefield commanders bar none. Our country was the looser. Do read up on them and post links on them on this thread.

Quiz - in which operation did Gen Sagat Singh lead a brigade and again in a lightning strike - his trademark.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 19:28

Another quiz - the Corps Commander who castigated Gen Sagat Singh for his action in NEFA also ended up superseding one of the most popular and most capable Generals we have ever produced. Name both.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Anoop » 19 Dec 2017 19:59

Lt. Gen. Jagjit Aurora was the Corps Commander at the time. I dont know who he superseded.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Anoop » 19 Dec 2017 20:01

Liberation of Goa

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 20:45

Anoop wrote:Liberation of Goa

Correct on Goa. Wrong on Gen Aurora. It was Gen Bewoor who advocated retreat in face of Chinese and thankfully Sagat sir disobeyed and we did not loose NathuLa. Later Bewoor took over as chief instead of Gen Bhagat. A great shame and a shock to all.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Anoop » 19 Dec 2017 21:10

Sir,

The Wiki page on Gen. Bewoor says he was Dy Chief from 1967 to 1969, although he was previously Corps Commander of 33 Corps. An article on the 1967 Nathu La episide in the CLAWS journal in 2014 mentions Gen Aurora as being the Corps Commander at the time of the incident.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 21:18

Hmmm but Gen Veekays book clearly mentions Gen Bewoor as Corps Commander. Some more investigation needed perhaps ? Why don’t you do so and educate all of us.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Anoop » 19 Dec 2017 22:00

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/personnel/chiefs/33-gg-bewoor.html

Page 144 mentions Lt. Gen Aurora as being the Corps Commander and the two even crossing the border during an inspection. This article, also by Gen V K Singh, suggests that the casualties in the action might have soured their relationship, though Gen Aurora was supportive of the decision to stand firm at Nathu La.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... RVszp87_ye

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Dec 2017 22:46

http://veekay-militaryhistory.blogspot. ... 4.html?m=1

Read this fully, it will clear everything. Bewoor was Corps Cmdr first and ordered withdrawal from Jep La and Nathu La. Nathu La was under Sagat Singh’s DIV and he refused. They attacked and he responded. The other Div had withdrawn and Jep La was lost for ever. Bewoor was furious and censured Gen Sagat Singh. Gen Aurora then relieved Bewoor who had moved on to his new posting and suggested demarcation and offered to walk to see if they would contest or not.

Point is clear the best battlefield commander of the Indian Army ever saved our bacon in 67 and then again in 71 but did not get his due because of Bewoor and others. Read Gen Sinha’s book as well. He specifically says this as well and expresses anguish but doesn’t take names. PS Bhagat would have been perhaps the finest Chief - VC, battle experience and tremendous intellect and loyalty from troops and next in line after Sam. Whole army was in shock when games were played and he wasn’t made chief. Bewoor had nothing to his credit.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 20 Dec 2017 00:03

^ Gen. Sagat probably pioneered joint IA-IAF Ops. He was one of first commanders to use helicopters in warfare , and transports as bombers (DH-4 Caribou).

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Anoop » 20 Dec 2017 07:02

Thank you Sir.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Dec 2017 11:50

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Gen. Sagat probably pioneered joint IA-IAF Ops. He was one of first commanders to use helicopters in warfare , and transports as bombers (DH-4 Caribou).


Yes the air bridge over the Meghna. Deejay can tell you more.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2017 12:10

Is it true that Gen Sagat Singh took (and completed) the paratrooper course at 40 years of age?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 20 Dec 2017 12:52

Aditya G wrote:Is it true that Gen Sagat Singh took (and completed) the paratrooper course at 40 years of age?


Over 40 years. Yes. He did two jumps a day to accelerate the process. He was made CMDR of Para Bde and felt he had to do this to earn respect of the troops.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2017 09:04

A village in Andhra Pradesh that has contributed soldiers since WWI to Indian Army.

Please watch and share the pride.

https://twitter.com/CyberCoolee/status/ ... 4756461569

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Karthik S » 29 Dec 2017 09:22

ramana wrote:A village in Andhra Pradesh that has contributed soldiers since WWI to Indian Army.

Please watch and share the pride.

https://twitter.com/CyberCoolee/status/ ... 4756461569


Good to know, always wondered lack of south Indian martial races such as Thevars, Nairs in AP.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Dec 2017 11:05

Kartik, did you mean AP specifically ? In case you were wondering about the South in general there is a huge and growing number of officers from South India in the army espeiclly the infantry. I noticed this trend a long time ago and have wondered about this for some time. Just as an anecdote read all the citations for KC, AC in the last 20 years.

Ramana sir great link. Thanks. I’m thirsty to see the full video.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Dec 2017 11:15

Ramana sir, I was thinking it might be worth making attempts to use this thread to link current Indian army to its real ancestors - Indian empires like the Cholas, Vijaynagar, Sikhs, Marathas etc. For example 9 Grenadiers is the 1st Mewar Infantry with an unbroken history from 1300. I’m sure we will find lots of such nuggets if we search.

What do you think sir ?

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Dec 2017 11:23

Dinesh Kumar, I was having a chat with Gen Satish Satpute the other day. He was GOC 21 Corps during Parakram. The talk veered to Gen Sagat Singh and he told me he was 2lt in 17 Div when Gen Sagat Singh was Div Commander. Btw Anoop be confirmed Bewoor was Corps Commander though he said he doesn’t remember an order to withdraw. Anyway he was full of praise for Sagat Singh and said he used to speak to even officers like him and he found it very motivating. He was a true offensive general.

I also told him that I was a big fan of Gen Hanut and he said I haven’t worked with him but everyone I’ve ever spoken to has only said great things about him. That’s how legends live for ever - in hearts of people.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2017 12:04

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Ramana sir, I was thinking it might be worth making attempts to use this thread to link current Indian army to its real ancestors - Indian empires like the Cholas, Vijaynagar, Sikhs, Marathas etc. For example 9 Grenadiers is the 1st Mewar Infantry with an unbroken history from 1300. I’m sure we will find lots of such nuggets if we search.

What do you think sir ?



I agree whole heartedly.

I have Maj Sarbans Singh's book Battle Honors of Indian Army that traces regimental histories of BIA and State Forces.

I wish BRF was more web friendly so we could share the pictures easily.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby shiv » 29 Dec 2017 12:28

Karthik S wrote:Good to know, always wondered lack of south Indian martial races such as Thevars, Nairs in AP.

Karthik san. Please pardon me but there are some things we users of this imported tongue English need to understand.

There is no such thing as martial race. There are no naturally martial tendencies in humans. The term martial race was used by the British, among other things to chamcha-ify and to make jackasses out of tribes who would fight well for and die for the British in exchange for praise and privileges. These sad delusions were proven wrong by the vicious fighting of the Mukti Bahini and of Tamils in Sri Lanka.

I request you not to use that term again. There are however, people with long martial traditions like the Gurkhas. In Karnataka the Kodavas (Coorgis) have a strong martial tradition. Gen Thimmaiah and Gen Cariappa were Kodavas

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby dinesh_kimar » 29 Dec 2017 15:16

^ AK Sir, you are right. However, being an army brat, I request we not talk negatively abt fellow Officers (Gen. Bewoor) . As one poster said, no more blue-on-blue.
The situation , as i understand , was something like this.

After 1962 war defeat, the IA had opened its eyes to a possible 2 front war. In 1962, the situation was one of utter confusion. Proper planning and positioning of troops for strong defensive posture was not done at all. The IA, after 1962, diligently put to use various "Lessons Learnt" and "SOPs". One such SOP went something like this:
In event of Chinese hostilities in Sikkim - Nathu La sector, IA would vacate the Nathu La and Jelep La posts and fall back to their Division HQs. The 2 posts were considered "forward observation posts", and not core divisional "AOR".

In 1965 War,the Chinese made threatening noises, and IA HQ issued fall back orders to 17th Div (Nathu La) and 27th Div(Jelep La). The 27th Div likewise vacated Jelep La, and this was "promptly occupied by the Chinese". Gen. Sagat Singh , however, kept his cool and the rest is history. (Here, one can imagine the plight of the mango abdul, being threatened by the Chinese, recently victorious in 1962, 10 ft tall and a nuclear power to boot. The only Indian heroes on could look upto for inspiration were horse riding swordsmen from 200 + years ago. Apparently, even the horses were imported. Heroes always existed in various wars, but until the advent of Bharat Rakshak, were a well kept government secret. The Indian psyche for a hero is something like "so-and so already did something in xxx time, even i must live upto and deliver this standard".)

As I have read, Gen. Bewoor was Corps Commander from 1964-66, and Gen. JS Arora from 1966 onwards. The skirmish in 1967 had Gen Arora as Corps commander. (Both these generals were furious with Gen Sagat Singh for not following SOPs in place and falling back.)

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Karthik S » 29 Dec 2017 19:08

shiv wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Good to know, always wondered lack of south Indian martial races such as Thevars, Nairs in AP.

Karthik san. Please pardon me but there are some things we users of this imported tongue English need to understand.

There is no such thing as martial race. There are no naturally martial tendencies in humans. The term martial race was used by the British, among other things to chamcha-ify and to make jackasses out of tribes who would fight well for and die for the British in exchange for praise and privileges. These sad delusions were proven wrong by the vicious fighting of the Mukti Bahini and of Tamils in Sri Lanka.

I request you not to use that term again. There are however, people with long martial traditions like the Gurkhas. In Karnataka the Kodavas (Coorgis) have a strong martial tradition. Gen Thimmaiah and Gen Cariappa were Kodavas


Although I meant martial traditions just like you gave example of the Gurkhas, a doubt in this regard, so people with centuries of martial traditions don't become martial race? So are the vikings, samurai etc can't be called martial race but just people with martial traditions? Don't genetics come into play in this regard like generations of war fighting has to have some effect on the "race/genetics".

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby shiv » 29 Dec 2017 19:23

Karthik S wrote:
Although I meant martial traditions just like you gave example of the Gurkhas, a doubt in this regard, so people with centuries of martial traditions don't become martial race? So are the vikings, samurai etc can't be called martial race but just people with martial traditions? Don't genetics come into play in this regard like generations of war fighting has to have some effect on the "race/genetics".

You can dismiss the genetics part. The genes don't change because of job done. Besides - if you look at the genetics principle of "survival of the fittest" what happens in war is that the fittest and bravest die and their genes are wasted, The infirm and old remain behind and reproduce with excess women - it is their genes being passed on. Yet the same populations produce warriors. So don't bring genetics into the picture here. If people have been tasked with collecting and cleaning nightsoil (feces/shit) for generations - do they become a "race of shit collectors"? They do not. Generations of fishermen do no make genetic fishermen.

Race is a racist term which has been thrown around a lot by our colonial masters. Very recently the government has removed a law that existed in our law books that recognized "criminal races". So the police - when tasked with finding a criminal - would arrest an entire village. This is documented by late Sankaran Nair - ex RAW director in his autobiography.

There is an interesting irony here. All the martial races of India were uniformly defeated by the British with their technology and ability to co-opt Indians by telling them that they are great warriors - so more Indians died fighting for the Brits while the Brits laughed all the way to the bank. Not once did they call themselves a martial race while they ruled the world. That was because the idea was fake. Race was convenient when it suited them and ignored when it was inconvenient.

Vikings were uncultured killers like modern day jihadis. Samurai were special forces, discipline and training. Neither were "martial races"

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Rahul M » 29 Dec 2017 20:12

OT :
samurai were a warrior class, not unlike kshatriyas in India.
ninjas have more of a claim being SF like, but their historicity is doubtful.

fact : the bruts removed some 'races' from list of martial races after people from those regions rebelled in 1857. the current martial race list is a list of those that stood with the bruts during 1857.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Karthik S » 29 Dec 2017 22:50

shiv wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Although I meant martial traditions just like you gave example of the Gurkhas, a doubt in this regard, so people with centuries of martial traditions don't become martial race? So are the vikings, samurai etc can't be called martial race but just people with martial traditions? Don't genetics come into play in this regard like generations of war fighting has to have some effect on the "race/genetics".

You can dismiss the genetics part. The genes don't change because of job done. Besides - if you look at the genetics principle of "survival of the fittest" what happens in war is that the fittest and bravest die and their genes are wasted, The infirm and old remain behind and reproduce with excess women - it is their genes being passed on. Yet the same populations produce warriors. So don't bring genetics into the picture here. If people have been tasked with collecting and cleaning nightsoil (feces/shit) for generations - do they become a "race of shit collectors"? They do not. Generations of fishermen do no make genetic fishermen.

Race is a racist term which has been thrown around a lot by our colonial masters. Very recently the government has removed a law that existed in our law books that recognized "criminal races". So the police - when tasked with finding a criminal - would arrest an entire village. This is documented by late Sankaran Nair - ex RAW director in his autobiography.

There is an interesting irony here. All the martial races of India were uniformly defeated by the British with their technology and ability to co-opt Indians by telling them that they are great warriors - so more Indians died fighting for the Brits while the Brits laughed all the way to the bank. Not once did they call themselves a martial race while they ruled the world. That was because the idea was fake. Race was convenient when it suited them and ignored when it was inconvenient.

Vikings were uncultured killers like modern day jihadis. Samurai were special forces, discipline and training. Neither were "martial races"


OK, this is getting OT but to end this:

Wasn't the example I was looking at. To put it differently, if few generations of a particular group is used to do physical work also has good access to food, they'd definitely be physically more fitter than others. Ex, icelandic and scandanevian people win World's strongest man competition more often than other countries despite having combined population less than that of Delhi. Similar story with the Samoans etc. Instead of nightsoil example, we can take this regarding genetics.

Regarding your "fittest and bravest die", you are mostly talking about last stand, if you look at victorious cases such as Genghis Khan, how many descendants he'd be having now? The remaining Pashtuns, Sikhs, Gurkhas etc can't be called descendants of weak lineage as they were all defeated at some point in time by some other forces, but still they are still associated with good war fighting skills. Is it just because of their warrior tradition or because they are physically and mentally capable of fierce fighting that other population groups may not be able to do so.

I understand your "race theory" of britards, same was mentioned by Hitler about his own population. But with above statements am not putting up an argument. I am trying to understand more from evolution/biological point of view rather than political about a human group/tribe (just not to use the word "race") that is more capable of war fighting than other groups/tribes.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Dec 2017 08:49

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ AK Sir, you are right. However, being an army brat, I request we not talk negatively abt fellow Officers (Gen. Bewoor) . As one poster said, no more blue-on-blue.
The situation , as i understand , was something like this.

After 1962 war defeat, the IA had opened its eyes to a possible 2 front war. In 1962, the situation was one of utter confusion. Proper planning and positioning of troops for strong defensive posture was not done at all. The IA, after 1962, diligently put to use various "Lessons Learnt" and "SOPs". One such SOP went something like this:
In event of Chinese hostilities in Sikkim - Nathu La sector, IA would vacate the Nathu La and Jelep La posts and fall back to their Division HQs. The 2 posts were considered "forward observation posts", and not core divisional "AOR".

In 1965 War,the Chinese made threatening noises, and IA HQ issued fall back orders to 17th Div (Nathu La) and 27th Div(Jelep La). The 27th Div likewise vacated Jelep La, and this was "promptly occupied by the Chinese". Gen. Sagat Singh , however, kept his cool and the rest is history. (Here, one can imagine the plight of the mango abdul, being threatened by the Chinese, recently victorious in 1962, 10 ft tall and a nuclear power to boot. The only Indian heroes on could look upto for inspiration were horse riding swordsmen from 200 + years ago. Apparently, even the horses were imported. Heroes always existed in various wars, but until the advent of Bharat Rakshak, were a well kept government secret. The Indian psyche for a hero is something like "so-and so already did something in xxx time, even i must live upto and deliver this standard".)

As I have read, Gen. Bewoor was Corps Commander from 1964-66, and Gen. JS Arora from 1966 onwards. The skirmish in 1967 had Gen Arora as Corps commander. (Both these generals were furious with Gen Sagat Singh for not following SOPs in place and falling back.)


Dinesh I don't believe I have talked negative about Gen Bewoor. All I said was that he was lack lustre and was the wrong choice as COAS and was wrong as GOC 33 Corps. We lost Jep La and thank God for a thorough professional like Gen Sagat Singh that we retained Nathu La. I will be even more careful in how I word my statements and will ensure I refer to officers by their rank but a serious and unbiased analysis of military history is essential for us to learn the right lessons.

Our finest commanders Gens Sagat Singh and Hanut Singh did not become Army Commanders forget Army Chiefs , Gens Bhagat and Sinha also didn't become chiefs both because of the government. The loss is ours as a people.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Dec 2017 09:17

Another point SOP is not meant to apply to tactical decisions by formation commanders but to day to day operating issues. If you talk about SOP what we did in Kargil was gross violation. Please show me the SOP which says entrenched enemy defences on top of high peaks should be assulated I'm frontal assaults. We should have cut off their supply lines no ? So let's not let a Corps Commander hide under SOP.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Dec 2017 10:24

Give me a body of any rural Indians with a strong roots in their culture and give me a few years and enough good ustaads to train them and I will give you a fine fighting force.

The ingredients for a great fighting force are - our culture and spiritual bedrock, motivation , leadership, winning habit, decent pay and assured welfare of families and izzat of the profession. The Brits picked out people who naturally had the first and then used the other ingredients to build the finest army in the world and used it for their needs. They started with the poorviah soldiers - brahmins of east and the south indians to take on the Rajputs and Marathas. Then they used the Rajputs and Marathas against the Sikhs and then Sikhs against others. Caste is a British corruption of jaati via the caste census. Our scriptures are clear - karma is superior and should be in the ambit of dharma.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2017 10:42

Karthik S wrote: Is it just because of their warrior tradition or because they are physically and mentally capable of fierce fighting that other population groups may not be able to do so.

It is the tradition that makes people eat and exercise properly and be mentally prepared for fighting. Nothing to do with genes. Or "race"

Nowadays any young and fit volunteer can be tuned to be a good soldier. He is imbued with the martial tradition of his army unit during his training.

Please do watch this video
Maratha Light Infantry regt training
https://youtu.be/CpJ8M62mVnQ
See how they look when they start and what they become. These men will give Scandinavian bodybuilder models a run for their money

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 30 Dec 2017 10:50

This gene stuff is baseless Kartik ji. Tradition and culture do have a bearing. In our case all our people are pretty good fighting material.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Karthik S » 30 Dec 2017 11:25

shiv wrote:
Karthik S wrote: Is it just because of their warrior tradition or because they are physically and mentally capable of fierce fighting that other population groups may not be able to do so.

It is the tradition that makes people eat and exercise properly and be mentally prepared for fighting. Nothing to do with genes. Or "race"

Nowadays any young and fit volunteer can be tuned to be a good soldier. He is imbued with the martial tradition of his army unit during his training.

Please do watch this video
Maratha Light Infantry regt training
https://youtu.be/CpJ8M62mVnQ
See how they look when they start and what they become. These men will give Scandinavian bodybuilder models a run for their money


Thanks Shiv ji for making this clear.

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Re: Indian Army History Thread

Postby Karthik S » 30 Dec 2017 11:37

Akshay Kapoor wrote:This gene stuff is baseless Kartik ji. Tradition and culture do have a bearing. In our case all our people are pretty good fighting material.


Thanks Akshay sir.


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