Indian Army History Thread

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Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2006 23:24

Because they realized that if modern process(one vote for one person) is allowed India will be ruled by Hindus who are a threat to their world view and very astitva.

Recall Max Mueller's AIT thesis was just around the corner at that time.

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Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2006 00:44

From Raja Deen Dayal's memoirs

Link: http://www.deendayal.com/index01.htm

[quote]
“In 1885, I was able to secure a group of H.E. Lord Dufferin, Marquis of Ava (the Viceroy) with Sir Lepel Griffin; and having done some photographic work for Lady Dufferin, which was to her entire satisfaction, I was subsequently appointed photographer to H.E. the Viceroy.â€

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Postby Sanjay » 31 Dec 2006 03:16

Ramana, you're probably correct. Hinduism is unlike any other existing religion and does not subscribe to the same world view as other faiths/ civilizations.

However, could it be that our tendency towards introspection has made India's pre-Islamic civilizations peculiarly vulnerable ?

Could it be that we failed to learn and adapt new ways of ruthless warfare ?

As the subject of 1857 has been broached, given that this is the 150th anniversary of the uprising, I was wondering whether it would be appropriate to examine the strengths vs weaknesses of the anti-British forces and the reasons for the defeat of the Uprising.

What would India have been like had the uprising succeeded ? In fact, what would have been defined as success for the uprising ?

Can anyone make an identification of the two types of musket/ arquebusses in this picture ? They appear to be partially of Portuguese design but come from India. Does anyone know from where ?
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/india ... rsaxes.jpg

Similarly, these South Indian muskets, are they of Maratha origin ?
http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/southindia.jpg

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Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2006 05:00

Sanjay,

India Forum on 1857

Lets go there.

The hook type stock of the musket is typical of the Coorg matchlocks. The Victoria and Albert museum has some samples. The other is typical standard musket.

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Postby shyamd » 02 Jan 2007 06:03

French Army’s NCC connection
Patrick is studying aeronautical engineering in Toulouse and his father — a French Army veteran — is keeping his fingers crossed that the young lad will enlist in the French forces to keep the family tradition alive. Had France not abolished conscription in 2001, the father's dream would have come true but now it's a distant possibility.

Lack of inspiration can perhaps explain why youth like Patrick — Pondicherry's French nationals — are shying away from a military career, which their fathers once embraced with pride.

But inspiration was not a scarce commodity a generation ago. And it was the National Cadet Corps (NCC) that steeled their resolve to become soldiers. Jayachandran, 52, would have never joined Armee de Terre (army) and served for 15 years had he not been an NCC cadet during his school days.

A former Corporal Chief, Jayachandran credited NCC with moulding him for a military career. He said, "The training stoked my ambition to become a soldier." At least 25 of the 145 French ex-servicemen in Pondicherry trained as NCC cadets before adopting 'code du soldat francais' (code of the French soldier).

S Sattianandame, a former Sergeant Chief in Armee de Terre and President of French Under-officers' Ex-servicemen Association, said many ex-combatants joined NCC in school. He said the exposure prepared them for a military career.

Another ex-combatant, who served in Lebanon as part of the French contingent in the UN Interim Force, said the NCC training gave him a head start over other conscripts from France. Most conscripts from Pondicherry, during 1970s and 1980s, extended their army careers beyond the prescribed one-year and went on to serve for 15 to 30 years.

Lieutenant Colonel Mouhamad Moustafa, a former intelligence officer in Armee de l'Air, told the Hindustan Times, "We were given equal opportunities in the French forces. I was one of their representatives in NATO and held prestigious appointments in the Prime Minister's office and the home affairs department during my 29-year service."

Ex-combatants are holding counselling sessions for young men in the hope of resuscitating a dying tradition. As Jayachandran says, " We will not let go off this slice of heritage that easily."

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Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2007 23:14

Indian POW war diary account.
From The Week, 7 Jan 2007
link: Devilish Dates


Image

Devilish dates - Kallol Bhattacherjee

EXCLUSIVE
View history through the diary of an Indian PoW

Britain ruled India with an iron fist in 1939 as World War II broke out in Europe. With the nationalist movement at its apogee, Indians were in a dilemma. Not joining the Allied war efforts would help the more dangerous Axis powers, while joining the war was no guarantee for quick independence from British colonial rule. Despite misgivings many Indians chose to fight the Nazis. One of these soldiers was 20-something Subedar Jit Singh Sarna.
The story of the late Jit Singh is a window to the greater story of India's contribution to the Allied war efforts in Europe. This story unfolds in a hitherto unpublished diary that Jit Singh maintained while serving as a PoW in a labour camp in Germany. The Sarnas were Sikhs from Rawalpindi in western Punjab. Dedicated to the Sikh gurus, they stretched their religious services from Rawalpindi to Baramulla in Kashmir, where they ran an ashram for mendicants. The three Sarna brothers-Jit, Prahlad and Narinder Singh-were born to Sewa Singh who ran the ashram and a handicrafts business along with his globe-trotter brother Sajjan Singh. The three brothers were expected to join the handicrafts business, but Jit joined the British Indian Army.
Jit married Joginder shortly before boarding a train from Sialkot for the war in Europe. He left on January 18, 1941, and that departure changed their destinies. Joginder slumped into depression and hysteria that stayed with her till 1974.
Before the pain of separation could die down came the news from Europe. "The British first said Jit Singh was missing in action and later on said that he was taken prisoner," recalled his sister-in-law Har Mohini, widow of the late Narinder Singh. From mid 1941 onwards, the Sarna family had no contact with their son in the distant German PoW camp, which was in fact a forced labour camp. Once in a while a letter from Jit would reach the family through the Red Cross, and the family would heave a sigh of relief. "Those were tough days and the letters would trigger Christmas-like celebrations at home," said Har Mohini.
Jit appears to have kept a meticulous record of his ordeals from day one on German soil as an Indian soldier and later as a PoW. Those earlier records are not available. But he did copy those documents on to the tiny diary given to him by the War Prisoners Aid of the YMCA in July 1944. YMCA's letter gifting the diary to the PoWs said, "Not everyone will want to use this book as a diary. If you are a writer, here is space for a short story. If you are an artist, you may want to cover these pages with sketches of your camp, caricatures of its important personalities. If you are a poet, major or minor, confide your lyrics to these pages. If you feel that circumstances cramp your style in correspondence, you may write here letters to be carried with you on your return. This book may serve to list the most striking concoctions of the camp kitchen, the records of the camp sports or a selection of the best jokes cracked in camp."

PoW camp Oflag 79 in Brunswick region of Germany was far from poetic. Oflag was the short of German offizierslager or special PoW camps. On May 27, 1941, Jit arrived at an unnamed PoW camp in Germany and on June 13, 1941 he was assigned the PoW no. 32. The diary which is a document straight from the war zone paints a sordid picture of the PoWs: the prisoners lived on tiny potatoes and kitchen waste, the Nazis tried to get as much work from them as possible. The diary tells that the prisoners cleaned toilets and baths and were part of a low-budget PoW programme that kept the Germans from diverting resources for upkeeping prisoners of war.
In a typical entry for August 24, 1944, Jit wrote, "The camp was picked up as target and was raided at 11.20 a.m. The scene was horrible-nearby barracks, German guardrooms and kitchen were reduced to ashes. Seven bomb craters were created and a good number of anti-personnel ammunition was dropped on the camp."
He then wrote, "The dangers of really heavy air raids are only known to those who survive these terrors of war, half-starved for years enclosed by barbed wire fences."
However, Jit was among the lucky few who returned alive because the Nazis did not gas Indian and British PoWs, only Russian soldiers. His diary does mention gassing of prisoners in parts of Germany and occupied territories. The war ended and Jit was freed at 9.25 a.m. on April 12, 1945. He reached Karachi on June 27 and reported for duty at Jubbulpore on October 17. He continued in the Army for a few more years and resigned in mid-50s to join the family business.

Despite the shock of Partition, the Sarnas flourished, thanks to the demand for brass bells in the US courts and railways. The trauma of war drove Jit to alcohol. He worked in the family factory in Moradabad 17 hours a day and came back home to the bottle. "By late 1960s he drank from morning till night," said Har Mohini. While Jit turned an alcoholic, Joginder grew incoherent due to age. Jit died fighting his private demons in 1974. Some time after his death, his wife got up early one morning fine and healthy, shocking everyone with the sudden recovery. "A holy man came in my dreams and woke me up," she claimed. Joginder, 93, now lives in the Sarnas' residence at Chanakyapuri in Delhi.
All his life Jit could not shrug off the memory of his stay in Oflag 79. The melancholy of those days was captured in a pencil sketch of his camp boots that Jit gifted his nephew in 1968. The sketch still hangs at the Sarnas' residence. Unable to forget the days of shame, Jit would cry before his family while recollecting how the Nazi soldiers would stop the train, force prisoners to defecate by the railway tracks in a row, and take photographs and laugh over it.
Describing hunger in the camps Jit wrote in his log, "Hunger takes you down even up to the extent that distribution of the rotten peelings of potatoes and turnips is well managed and whole-heartedly accepted. Hunger gives a strange feeling and sensation in the stomach. It gives pain as well." To keep hunger, away, prisoners would stop thinking about food and conserve energy by restricting their movements.

The prison log also contains interesting details about the social norms set by the prisoners. Given the acute shortage of necessary goods, the prisoners started a secret barter system among themselves. The unit of transaction in this system was one English cigarette. So one packet of Canadian biscuits cost 40 cigarettes and sweets cost 5 cigarettes. The diary has one page dedicated to "Exchange and Mart" where the exchange rate of nearly 31 items is detailed. One unfortunate pipe smoker had to manage with a mix of cigarette ends, and used and dried tea leaves, while "a cig smoker smoked a whole toilet roll using it for lack of cigarette paper". Needless to say, the "tobacco" was cigs ends and used tea leaves.
The list of PoWs in the diary shows that they came from England, Italy, Australia and New Zealand. Jit was not the only Indian in the camp. The diary mentions names of T.S. Ramakrishnan of Thondikulam village of Palakkad district in Madras Province, Major Anis Ahmed Khan of Aligarh and Udai Singh from Delhi's Mehrauli.
Jit Singh Sarna was an unknown soldier of World War II fighting for a country that colonised his own. Kuldip Nayar, veteran journalist and MP, and an old acquaintance of the Sarnas says the diary is important because it reminds the contemporary generation of a difficult phase in India's history which is being disregarded. As India aspires to be a great power, its legacy to preserve freedom and democracy is rightly recounted by the memory of soldiers like Jit.

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Postby Mandeep » 18 Jan 2007 00:34

Major Anis Ahmed Khan from Aligarh ? This is probably Maj Gen AA Khan who was Director, Supplies and Transport (DST - head of the ASC) at Army HQ 1949-53. A 1924 vintage KCIO (1/14 Punjab Regt) he migrated to Pakistan after retirement where his brother in law Maj Gen Shahid Hamid was the Pak Army's MGO.

This came as quite a shock to the Army. As DST he was privy to all the operational planning for logistics for the entire Indian Army.

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Postby A Sharma » 18 Jan 2007 02:19


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Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2007 22:34

Some links on Force 136

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BIA POWs on end of WW2 and Pay

Postby Jehammond » 26 Feb 2007 21:37

Dear Members,

Does anyone know if Indian soldiers in the BIA received their full back pay on being released and returned to their units in India? How were they treated by the British Indian government on release?

Jack E. Hammond

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Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2007 21:41

You mean POWs?

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Re: BIA POWs on end of WW2 and Pay

Postby Jagan » 26 Feb 2007 21:47

Jehammond wrote:Dear Members,

Does anyone know if Indian soldiers in the BIA received their full back pay on being released and returned to their units in India? How were they treated by the British Indian government on release?

Jack E. Hammond



Jack, they did get the full entitlements they deserved.

The ones who went to the INA however had their pensions, and awards cancelled. The INA veterans however became eligibble for the freedom fighter pension from the government.

join up at sagongs.ipbhost.com (basically a medal collector / researcher forum) but has a better historical approach to the pre indep army than any forum i know.

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PVC winners

Postby vardhank » 28 Feb 2007 11:51

Can someone help me with this?
'Param Vir Chakra' on DD had a segment about an armoured corps officer, possibly attached to poona horse, who brings down a PAF aircraft with a carbine, and earns his PVC by crawling ahead of the CO's tank and manually identifying/neutralising landmines. And I believe the PVC was not posthumous.
Sorry it was ages ago that I saw this, can't remember who it was. Tried looking through wikipedia and the indian army site, but none of the winners seems to match the profile. Can anyone identify him?
Is it just that the TV programme overdramatized events? And does anyone know if the programme ever made it to video/DVD?

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Postby Sri » 28 Feb 2007 18:04

I remember the program too... but sorry don't know the name. But the fellow who cleared the mine by crawling in front of the Comadant's tank was a Sapper officer...

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Re: PVC winners

Postby Jagan » 28 Feb 2007 18:12

vardhank wrote:Can someone help me with this?
'Param Vir Chakra' on DD had a segment about an armoured corps officer, possibly attached to poona horse, who brings down a PAF aircraft with a carbine, and earns his PVC by crawling ahead of the CO's tank and manually identifying/neutralising landmines. And I believe the PVC was not posthumous.
Sorry it was ages ago that I saw this, can't remember who it was. Tried looking through wikipedia and the indian army site, but none of the winners seems to match the profile. Can anyone identify him?
Is it just that the TV programme overdramatized events? And does anyone know if the programme ever made it to video/DVD?


Ah that PVC award episode was for 2/Lt Ram Raghoba Rane, who was also a WW2 veteran (it appears he was commissioned from the ranks?).

It shows a Jap zero being downed and not a PAF aircraft - though I dont know if that part is actually true but or some dramatization.

he got the PVC in the 1947-48 War

-Jagan

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Postby vardhank » 01 Mar 2007 12:17

Jagan,
Many thanks.
I was about eight I think when it first aired on DD (missed the Kargil-era rerun of this episode), and pretty much every enemy was a Pakistani :D
The Poona Horse bit I remember must have been on another segment.

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Postby Mandeep » 16 Mar 2007 23:25

The regiment which led the advance on Rajauri and which took part in the action in which the late RR Rane got his PVC was the Central India Horse. Commanded at that time by the late Maj Gen K. Zorawar Singh, MC (then a Lt Col of course).

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Postby ramana » 17 Mar 2007 21:42

Can we say that the senior most officers in the Indian sub-continent are FM Sam Maneckshaw and Marshal of the Air force Arjan Singh as they are FMs dont retire?

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Postby Mandeep » 17 Mar 2007 23:21

Absolutely right. The oldest officers are Maj Gen UC Dubey and Lt Gen K. Bahadur Singh, commissioned from Sandhurst in 1929 and 1930 respectively.

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Postby Cain Marko » 28 Mar 2007 22:09

Alright, here is something that totally blew me away -

Recently read on an internet forum from an ex-serviceman poster that India actually almost tried to pull a "falklands type" op on Diego Garcia during Indira Gandhi's time. :eek: :shock:

Anyone know anything about this that can be discussed in public ?

Regards,
CM.

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Postby svinayak » 28 Mar 2007 23:18

Cain Marko wrote:Alright, here is something that totally blew me away -

Recently read on an internet forum from an ex-serviceman poster that India actually almost tried to pull a "falklands type" op on Diego Garcia during Indira Gandhi's time. :eek: :shock:

Anyone know anything about this that can be discussed in public ?

Regards,
CM.


What time frame? Is it 1980-1983 time frame?

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Postby Cain Marko » 28 Mar 2007 23:48

Acharya wrote:What time frame? Is it 1980-1983 time frame?


I'm guessing in the 70s cause he did mention that it had something to do with the USS enterprise in the BOB area. It was supposed to be done with a good deal of support from the soviets, a brigade level op :shock:

But could've been later too.

Regards,
CM.

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Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2007 00:19

Maybe thats why Tom Clancy has a grouse against Mrs. G in a couple of his books! He has a couple of US jets buzz the IN carrier and create big waves to splash the ship.

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Postby Kakkaji » 29 Mar 2007 01:11

Cain Marko wrote:Recently read on an internet forum from an ex-serviceman poster that India actually almost tried to pull a "falklands type" op on Diego Garcia during Indira Gandhi's time. :eek: :shock:


I think it is hot air. In this "Falklands" situation, India would have been Argentina, and USA would have acted like the UK. Even if Indian forces had taken DG in the beginning, there is no way the Indian forces, so far away from their home bases, would have been able to withstand the US assault backed by USN Carrier Task Forces that would have followed. It would have been a military rout, a loss of national prestige, and a disaster for the economy which was not doing so great at the time.

Those who float these scenarios, are usually the loony types in India, or the ultra-right wing nuts in the US for whom IG was anathema. But IG was too canny to fall for such idiocy. Let us consider how IG actually conducted war and peace in the 70's:

1. Agreed not to launch war when the army said it was not ready and could not guarantee victory: March 1971

2. While the army was getting ready, launched a PR offensive to generate sympathy for India's cause worldwide, and to undercut the moral ground under the feet of "too clever by half" Nixon and Kissinger.

3. Launched war in December 71 when the army said it was ready, and when the enemy had overextended itself through his stupidity and arrogance.

4. Did not stop war when, on the verge of victory, Nixon and Kissinger threatened with the Seventh Fleet. Did a cold-headed threat assessment, and decided India could hold off for a few days till victory was achieved in the East.

5. Stopped war immediately after fall of Dhaka, despite the desire of hotheads to finish of West Pak once for all. Once again cold-headed assessment that continuing war will undermine the moral upper-hand that India had, and would allow Nixon/ Kissinger to intervene militarily and through the U.N., and undo the gains of the war achieved so far.

6. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, and Pakistan became a US base, she did not make India join the conflict on behalf of Soviets.

Would such a person have embarked upon a foolhardy venture like attacking Diego Garcia? Much as Tom Clancy types would like to demonize her, she was not like the tinpot dictators of Argentina and Pakistan, who launch wars without thinking through the consequences.

Having spent some of her formative years in the UK, IG knew how to pinch the US/ UK in their weak spot by showing them the mirror on the colonialism/ imperialism/ dictator-support issues. There was no need to take them on militarily and face the consequences. Instead she continued to be a thorn in their side by her hectoring, and held the moral high ground until she lost it after imposing the emergency.

I think such speculative trial balloons are floated by motivated people. The net effect is that these posts are picked up and re-posted all over the internet to reinforce an anti-India constituency among those Americans whose minds are still stuck in the cold war era (We have a prominent representative on BRF also :wink: ) .

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Postby ramana » 04 Apr 2007 22:55

From Hindu

History

A mutiny revisited

MOUSHUMI BASU

The mutiny of 1683 in Bombay is special as it was the first instance of a major revolt from within against the East India Company.


Image


Deceptive peace: A print showing the countryside from the late 17th century.

AS we mark 150 years of the Sepoy Mutiny this year, a lesser known but nevertheless significant mutiny that preceded the 1857 event by nearly a century and a half comes to mind. History, social and political history in particular, has an ingenuous way of repeating itself. A few years back, while browsing through files at the Oriental and India Office collections at the British library, I came across a reference that caught my eye. In a certain file of the Secret Committee of the East India Company, lay documented the events of a mutiny led by none other than the Commander-in-Chief of the British garrison, Captain Richard Keigwin, against the Company in Bombay in 1683. History has it that Keigwin, appalled at the misconduct and the tyranny of the Company towards its own servants, threw in his lot with the rest of his regiment in seizing the administrative controls of the island from the hands of the Company for well up to a year.

Interesting contrast

The "white" revolt against the Company, at a time when the East India Company's forces were entirely European, forms an interesting contrast to subsequent "native" insurrections in the latter half of the Company's history. Interestingly, the tone of the mutiny has a very contemporary ring to it. Keigwin's mutiny against the Company is in many ways similar to workers' struggles against big multinational companies in the contemporary period. The measures taken by the East India Company to maintain the flow of profits arising from its monopolistic control over trade bear an uncanny resemblance to the current tactics employed by big business houses to retain their competitive hold over markets the world over.

The circumstances leading to the 1683 rebellion tell a fascinating story. An important seaport, Bombay, part of the dowry presented by Catherine of Braganza to Charles II, was acquired by the Company from the British Crown in 1668. Under the royal charter, the Company was given exclusive powers to issue currency, build fortifications, negotiate trade concessions — in short complete juridical autonomy over settlements under its control. While technically it was Surat rather than Bombay that was the seat of the Presidency, Bombay replaced Surat as the headquarters in 1672 due to its strategic location. Under Gerald Aungier, the Company's President, Bombay was transformed into a bustling port town with heavy fortifications and a regular army.

Expensive proposition

Financially, however, the island proved to be an expensive proposition for the Company as the expenditure incurred in governing the island far exceeded the revenue which the population and territory could be made to yield. Each year, "a good part of the money that was sent out to India, and that should have gone to their investment in pepper and silks, was spent on the fortifications and upkeep of a place that produced no commodity of profit for Europe". In 1683-84, the year of the mutiny we are talking about, the total debt of Bombay amounted to 3,00,000 xeraphines alone (James Mill, History of British India, Vol.1, 1826). The Directors, new to the business of government, writes Mill, laboured to correct the deficit by first attempting to raise revenues, and simultaneously reducing the Company's expenses. In doing so, they, however, alienated almost all classes of subjects, including their own men. The people of Bombay felt the weight of taxation, and the Company's officers and men faced retrenchments and reduction in expenses. Periodic revision in salaries, for example, was stalled. Troops were paid at the rate of 380 budgrooks to one xeraphine while the existing exchange rate was much higher — one xeraphine to 580 budgrooks. This created strong feelings of distrust and resentment towards the Company from all sections of its men.

It thus came as a big surprise for the Company's management when on December 27, 1683, the Company's troops rose in rebellion under the command of Richard Keigwin. The ease with which Keigwin was able to displace the Company's administration, forcing it to renounce its authority over the island, showed the unanimous discontent against the injustices of the Company amongst the people. The rebellion, in Keigwin's words, was "disloyalty neither to his King or his country, but only to the East India Company" (Ray and Oliver Strachey, Keigwin's Rebellion (1683-84): An Episode in the History of Bombay, 1917). In a letter addressed to the King, Keigwin offered to manage the island's affairs on behalf of the British Crown until such time as arrangements for direct assumption of administrative responsibilities by the Crown were complete.

Official records provide detailed correspondence amongst the Company's representatives regarding the startling nature of the events. Previously rewarded by the Company for his role in recapturing the island of St. Helena from the Dutch in 1673, the fact that Keigwin should now lead a revolt against the very same Company seemed incredulous. For the first time in the history of the Company, its business interests were being put at risk by those very men employed to defend its interests at sea. It is precisely in this respect that the mutiny of 1683 is so special. Several accounts of smaller mutinies by European units exist in the Company's history in India, but none can be said to be as successful as the one led by Keigwin.

Successful administrator

In his role as Governor of Bombay, Keigwin was almost as successful as his performance as a naval officer on field. One of the first things that Keigwin took on was the reorganisation of the Company's finances. Through careful management of the Company's finances, Keigwin was able to generate enough revenues to cover all the necessary expenses. On November 19, 1684, when he formally handed over the controls to a new administration headed by Sir Thomas Grantham, not only had Keigwin been successful in bringing the deficit down; he also made it a point to hand over to the Company the whole sum of 60,000 xeraphines that he had seized, untouched, proving that a satisfactory government could be carried on, "prestige adequately maintained, troops properly paid, and the Island kept in state of security from outside threats", without undertaking any of the drastic measures executed by the Company.

Lasting impact

The temporary siege in fact left an indelible impact on the offices of the Company. A separate committee called the Secret Committee was established almost immediately after, to safeguard against any future disruptions in business. The Secret Committee in fact went on to become one of the most important committees in the organisational structure of the East India Company. Entrusted with the specific responsibility of issuing and transmitting secret instructions between the Company's offices in London and colonies elsewhere, the Committee functioned as the Company's war cabinet till the final days of its reign in India.

As the Company gradually increased its hold over other parts of India, there were many more reports of sepoy mutinies that came to light. On September 8, 1764, Lal Paltan, the native regiment raised by Clive, mutinied and imprisoned its officers at Manji. In 1765-66, Robert Fletcher, a British officer, led a small group of soldiers to revolt against the Company in Munger. In 1806, there were reports of yet another native mutiny at Vellore in the Madras army area. In 1844, there were simultaneous reports of "mixed" sepoy mutinies by the 4th, 7th, 34th, 64th and 69th Native Infantry battalions in different parts of the country. The mutiny of 1857 was perhaps the biggest and the most important of all. Collectively, they symbolised growing anger amongst both Indian and Europeans employed in the service of the Company against the Company's Raj in India. While the top management reaped huge dividends for each new plunder, the fruits, much in the same way as now, never did trickle down to those in the field.


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Postby svinayak » 04 Apr 2007 23:59

Kakkaji wrote:1. Agreed not to launch war when the army said it was not ready and could not guarantee victory: March 1971

2. While the army was getting ready, launched a PR offensive to generate sympathy for India's cause worldwide, and to undercut the moral ground under the feet of "too clever by half" Nixon and Kissinger.

3. Launched war in December 71 when the army said it was ready, and when the enemy had overextended itself through his stupidity and arrogance.

4. Did not stop war when, on the verge of victory, Nixon and Kissinger threatened with the Seventh Fleet. Did a cold-headed threat assessment, and decided India could hold off for a few days till victory was achieved in the East.

5. Stopped war immediately after fall of Dhaka, despite the desire of hotheads to finish of West Pak once for all. Once again cold-headed assessment that continuing war will undermine the moral upper-hand that India had, and would allow Nixon/ Kissinger to intervene militarily and through the U.N., and undo the gains of the war achieved so far.

6. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, and Pakistan became a US base, she did not make India join the conflict on behalf of Soviets.

Would such a person have embarked upon a foolhardy venture like attacking Diego Garcia?


Think of some of the reasons why IG did the POKI in 1974. Why not in 1975 or in 1973.

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Postby Kakkaji » 05 Apr 2007 00:19

Acharya wrote:Think of some of the reasons why IG did the POKI in 1974. Why not in 1975 or in 1973.


Don't know. Why don't you tell us?

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Postby Aditya G » 22 Apr 2007 21:06

Wax image of Brigadier KS Thimmaya in Fort Siloso in Singapore:

Image

Image

To comemorate Japanese surrender to the Allied forces in WWII at Singapore. Took these today.

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Postby Jagan » 22 Apr 2007 21:20

Nice pics aditya, was there any copy of the surrender document on display anywhere?

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Postby Arun_S » 23 Apr 2007 02:50

Aditya G wrote:Wax image of Brigadier KS Thimmaya in Fort Siloso in Singapore:

Image Image

To comemorate Japanese surrender to the Allied forces in WWII at Singapore. Took these today.


Aditya: IIRC the Santosa museum also has an adjoining wax display of British and Australian TFTA officers surrendering to Japanese early in the WW-II. Could you also post those photo's to rub it on the proud white progenies of convicts and robbers, down under.

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Postby sunilUpa » 23 Apr 2007 03:17

[quote="Kakkaji
I think such speculative trial balloons are floated by motivated people. The net effect is that these posts are picked up and re-posted all over the internet to reinforce an anti-India constituency among those Americans whose minds are still stuck in the cold war era (We have a prominent representative on BRF also :wink: ) .[/quote]

Hmmm that was posted by an ex-IA officer, whose father received the order for airlifting an ambulance unit. Apparently the operation was called off at the last minute.

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Postby HariC » 23 Apr 2007 03:38

Aditya G wrote:Wax image of Brigadier KS Thimmaya in Fort Siloso in Singapore:

Image Image

To comemorate Japanese surrender to the Allied forces in WWII at Singapore. Took these today.

I found this photograph of the event

Image

you can see brig thimaya sitting on the left.

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Postby ParGha » 23 Apr 2007 04:40

Arun_S wrote:Aditya: IIRC the Santosa museum also has an adjoining wax display of British and Australian TFTA officers surrendering to Japanese early in the WW-II. Could you also post those photo's to rub it on the proud white progenies of convicts and robbers, down under.


Do I sense a whiff of Ozziphobia? ... I thought the point of the picture was to highlight an episode from pre-Indian Army's history, best left at that.

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Postby ParGha » 23 Apr 2007 04:47

Aditya G wrote:Wax image of Brigadier KS Thimmaya in Fort Siloso in Singapore:

Image

Image

To comemorate Japanese surrender to the Allied forces in WWII at Singapore. Took these today.


While I always had a vague bit of trivia about Timmaya having served with MacArthur's staff during the post-war period, never knew this part. Would make interesting reading if someone had some background links.

PS: Speaking of this, I recall reading somewhere that 1st Maratha Light Infantry became the first of Indians to attain Independence - having been part of the Allied Occupation Army in Japan, and thus closer to IDL than any other Indians on August 15th 1947. More information about that will make interesting reading too!

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Postby Aditya G » 23 Apr 2007 13:11

Hi Jagan,

The place is full of artifiacts from that period, but I dont recollect seeing a surrender document - must admit I wasnt looking for one!

Btw this might just be the only wax sculpture of an Indian Army general anywhere in the world.

Image of namesless IA trooper - cannot comment upon the accuracy of the ribbons and insignia. Aussie soldier in the left.

Image

General Percival's surrender to the Japanese invading force:

Image


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Postby merlin » 26 Apr 2007 11:56

Apparently the operation was called off at the last minute.


There have been other operations that were also called off at the last minute, operations that can be considered a pretty big deal. Unbelievable stuff may also be quite true.

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Postby Jagan » 19 May 2007 19:39

Got his on email.

On Karan Thapar's Vilification of Field Marshal Manekshaw
(Letter sent to the Editor, Hindustan Times by Gurmeet Kanwal on May 13, 2007)

Karan Thapar's tirades against Field Marshal Manekshaw are quite obviously motivated by ulterior considerations. Manekshaw was, without doubt, the finest Chief of the Army Staff (COAS) that the Indian army has ever had. He led the Indian army to its greatest victory. It was by all accounts India's finest hour.

By contrast, Karan's own father, General P N Thapar, led the Indian army to a humiliating defeat against China and did not have the spine to stand up to Krishna Menon. He was decidedly the worst COAS ever.

Earlier in the week, Karan gave full play to a silly old fool like Gohar Ayub Khan who has gone to outrageous lengths to sell his third-rate book.

Instead of belittling himself by casting aspersions on Manekshaw's unimpeachable integrity, Karan should take some time off and read some military history about the goings on in Army HQ during the 1962 war and his father's ignominious role in them.

He should then contrast that sordid episode with Manekshaw's handling of the 1971 war and his exemplary conduct over 35 years since then.

Perhaps the experience will teach him to put in some effort into researching his subjects before firing loose volleys.

The Editor would do well to restrain this pesky fellow from misusing the liberty normally given to a columnist by respected newspapers. Ideally, just terminate his contract.

--
Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Retd.)
Senior Fellow
Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS)

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Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2007 07:32

Random reminiscences

8 years ago were were in the middle of looking at Musharraf's musharraf in Kargil as his men broke all downhill skiing records.


FAREWELL HERO: Capt Jayashree saluting the mortal remains of her husband, Major Vivek Gupta, who was killed in the Army operations in the Kargil sector.
Image

SHAHEED MAJOR VIVEK GUPTA

Dunce-ing

Postby Dunce-ing » 04 Jun 2007 16:54

Ban me!


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