Indian Army History Thread

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shiv
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Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2007 17:50

Dunce-ing wrote:Ban me!


dun -

oh and your name "dancing" is inappropriate according to forum guideliines - so I chose one for you.

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Postby ramana » 19 Jun 2007 02:50

From Tribune, 18 June 2007


[quote]
How India won the ’65 war
Y.B. Chavan’s diary reveals the inside story

by I. Ramamohan Rao


Image

Y.B Chavan

Image
Lal Bahadur Shastri


India fought four wars with Pakistan and one with China. Though officers have written about them, there is no official history. The latest book, 1965 War — The Inside Story, based on Y. B. Chavan’s diary, is by former Union Home Secretary R.D. Pradhan. Chavan was the Defence Minister during that war and Pradhan was his personal secretary.

Chavan replaced Krishna Menon as Defence Minister after the 1962 debacle. A confidant of Morarji Desai, Chavan was the first Chief Minister of Maharashtra. Maharashtrians saw in Chavan the 20th century Shivaji. His main task was to rebuild the Army and boost the morale.

Gen Ayub Khan of Pakistan was a man in a hurry. Before India could rebuild the Army, he was keen to acquire Kashmir. As a member of the Baghdad Pact, Pakistan had received arms assistance from the US, particularly Patton tanks, F-104 star fighters, Sabres and B-57 bombers.

Pakistan had a trial run in the 1965 summer by invading the Rann of Kutch. Before the Indian Army could mobilise troops, a ceasefire was brought about by the intervention of British Prime Minister Harold Wilson.

Soon after, Pakistan planned the infiltration in Kashmir, hoping that the people would rise in its favour. The Operation Gibraltar was spearheaded by infiltrators. However, the people of Kashmir reported the presence of Pakistani infiltrators to the Indian Army. In the operations, Pakistan lost important strategic points like the Haji Pir Pass. Gen Ayub Khan, however, decided to invade Chhamb. Through Operation Grand Slam, Pakistan almost succeeded in its objective.

Pakistan launched the attack on September 1. The Army formations in Chhamb came under heavy artillery. Chief of Army Staff General J. N. Chaudhury was in Srinagar. Chavan started preparing for the Emergency Committee of the Cabinet.

At 4.45 p.m., Gen Chaudhury and Air Marshal Arjan Singh, the Air Chief, walked into the South Block and sought Chavan’s approval to provide air support to Army troops fighting the Pakistan Army onslaught led by tanks. Pakistan was trying to occupy the Akhnoor bridge and cut off Jammu and Kashmir from India.

Pradhan says, Chavan gave the green signal to the IAF to attack Pakistani forces moving towards Chhamb. It was the first time that the IAF fighters were deployed. The promptness of the decision and the quick mobilisation and action by the IAF, Pradhan says, saved the nation from a major catastrophe.

Chavan also approved the Army Chief’s suggestion to attack Pakistan in the Punjab along the international border. The diary reads: [b]“Had no time to consult ECC (Emergency Committee of the Cabinet) or Prime Minister. Took decision of their advice and asked them to go ahead. COAS (Chief of Army Staff) asked for signal to go ahead for Punjab action, which I gave.â€

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Postby Rahul M » 19 Jun 2007 12:16

ramana, this sure is politically incorrect but would appreciate very much if you post in normal font size. it's very distracting and irritating.

I really appreciate the importance of the big font part, but I stil think the underline option would have been sufficient to differentiate that part from the rest of the article.

being an admin, that sets bad example IMO.

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Postby Kartman » 21 Jun 2007 15:02

vsudhir wrote:
Boy, took the sheen off a few sacred cows.

Read it all.


Yeah, read it all... all rather old hat, and pretty superficial at that !
Who knows, mebbe the Part 4 onwards might be better... but I, for one, ain't holding my breath over it :roll:

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Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2007 16:30

vsudhir wrote:Assuming you know what you're talking about, could you pls provide a rebuttal and instances of these superficialities you just happened to mention in passing.


With respect vsudhir - I was unable even to find the name of the author of that article (and I left a comment to that effect).

The problem with your request above is that this is exactly the way the classic "you farted" allegations work and you are inadvertently aiding that.

For example there is an article on the net that speaks of the usual 800,000 soldiers. 80,000 muslims killed and 2000 dead in Gujrat.

The allegations in the article are numerous and one false premise builds up on another. Quotes convenient to the writer's viewpoint are posted and inconvenient facts are left out.

If one is asked to post a point by point rebuttal - the "rebutting" person is walking into a trap in which he has to spend time rebutting certain false or misleading premises made by the original writer, and any unrelated facts that one quotes will count as being non relevant to the rebuttal.

Martha Nussbaum's recent article discussed elsewhere is an example of such writing, as is this authorless article.

The author gradually builds up a case based on a particular way of portraying the army, and then proceeds to draw parallels with armies of other nations. No effort is expended on any detail about whether his thrust is relevant to his portrayal of the Indian army, or that the examples he uses are in any way relevant to the Indian army.

It is a well written article of a debatable collection of statements by an author whose name is not clearly mentioned.

To me these are serious faults. You are already doing this anonymous chap a great favor by using BRF to give him and his views thousands of hits. You want someone on this forum to do a point by point rebuttal in an article in which the anonymous author clearly holds the initiative - having said all sorts of things first.

It's like saying "You are a b*st*rd. Now prove me wrong"

Things should not work that way. It is teh author of the blog who has to substantiate a lot of things that he says, rather than getting others to rebut what he writes.

I might post some points that he makes and ask for him to substantiate - but he is not going to come to on here and be slaughtered. But then again - I might not. he is getting good traffic from here for what I agree is a very superficial analysis. Time pass.

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Postby vsudhir » 21 Jun 2007 16:54

Point taken, doctor.

Shall remove my posts above.

Thx.

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Postby shiv » 21 Jun 2007 17:03

While the world has flattened, the Indian Army has added to its hierarchical structure along with a significant increase in numbers.

I would like to know what is the connection between the first half of the sentence and the second half before I can talk about support or rebuttal

While all this has happened, there has been no talk of reduction in numbers ala the western armies. The US, UK and French military training schools are either outsourced or largely manned by civilian employees.


Military training outsourced? Examples please. Also an analysis of how these nations might have such a large body of capable civilian military trainers based on their history and what they have been up to in the past 20-50 years.

No modern army worth its name runs its own logistics; their logistics is totally outsourced.


Please name some armies that are worth their salt. I would like to be educated on how the effectiveness or role of an army can be measured in terms of salt? Is this some new kind of currency that is being mooted on the economists blog?

Can we have a leaner army that is as effective an insurance for the nation’s future? Arguably, yes.


And arguably NO. Look at the stress thread and you find that there may be a need for more men for COIN. And the "totally outsourced" army that is worth its salt, the US army is hiring

Notwithstanding this pontification, acquisition of modern military equipment and implementation of latest military strategy in the current geopolitical scenario should have led to a concomitant reduction in the strength of the army


Should have? "latest military strategy"? What is he/she talking about? Whose strategy? Details. details. Where are the details?

The author has written a beautiful and hard hitting article , but Martha Nussbaum is better at it.

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Postby Kartman » 21 Jun 2007 17:12

vsudhir wrote:Wow. Your confidence indicates that either you're in the know in such matters or you resort to passing judgement without clarified reasoning.


Much though I'd like to pretend that I'm "in the know", fact is I'm not...
Which is all the more reason why I consider that article superficial... esp. given poor ole me, with my limited powers of reasoning, can see it for what it is - a series of cherry-picked facts, buttressed by shallow conjectures, that build upon each other to reach the writer's (possibly) preconceived view of things... with the occasional conspiracy theory thrown in for good measure, just to spice things up :roll:

Assuming you know what you're talking about, could you pls provide a rebuttal and instances of these superficialities you just happened to mention in passing. Would be glad to hear a fact-based, logical rebuttal of the points that column made.


Problem is, where does one start ?
I started-off doing exactly what you're suggesting, but I just got inundated with so many instances that I gave up... and that was before I even got started on Parts 1 and 2 :oops:

Would dearly love to know that our fauj is not falling behind.


Whether our fauj is falling behind or not, the above article doesn't convince either way. I could write an equally shallow article proving that it's not falling behind...

Thx in advance.
(Though, admittedly, am not holding my breath either about a reasoned response from your side.)

Wise move... holding the breath tends to atrophy one's brain cells :(
He ain't getting no rebuttal, at least not from me... enough free publicity/hits as it is.

/Have a nice day.


Wish you an even better day than I've had so far :)

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Postby rohitvats » 22 Jun 2007 10:54

The fact that the author goes to compare Indian Cricket Team’s performance with that of Indian Army, shows the level of serious thought behind this article. Only if a war was as easy as a Cricket Match. Everyone lives to play another day.
So 1962 was unmitigated disaster (as if the Army asked for this war and what about one Mister “Chachaâ€

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Postby Kartman » 22 Jun 2007 14:25

Rohitvats, others: the article (or rather, series) is so pedestrian that it's best not to waste our breath over it. As shivji said, this just gives the numbskull who wrote it undue publicity/hits...

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Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2007 08:29

Cross post from the LCA thread

Rakesh wrote:
shiv wrote:Yes - but Rakesh has been rapidly and diligently changing threads as soon as they reach page 9 giving the impression that others can't start new threads.


Forum members are more than welcome to start threads. I create new threads when I see them. Why is this an issue?


Not an issue - but I was surprised to find people on the forum think that they were not supposed to start or renew threads.

Most of these people are newer members who do not know the history behind this. The idea of changing the thread when it reached 340 posts was yours because any thread changes to page 10 after 340 posts.

One of the things that I wanted to experiment with (for continuity) was to wait for the thread to reach 339 posts or even page 10 and then split off the last page or half page as the new thread. The old thread then automatically goes to the trashcan where people can look for it - while the new thread has half a page of posts that serve as continuity. This reduces the break in continuity that occurs when threads are changed. It also reduces admin workload because you don't have to find the url of the last page in the trashcan archive and put it on the first page of the new thread you have created.

One often finds that threads with an animated discussion suddenly goes dead when it is renewed. That can be prevented by allowing it to reach 335 plus posts (well into page 9, or even early page 10) and then splitting off the bottom 5-10 posts as the new thread.

But only admins can do that. That of course does not mean that members should not start a new thread which they can if it has not received due admin attention.
Last edited by Jagan on 05 Aug 2009 03:53, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Splitting into Forum and Site Feedback

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Postby Rakesh » 23 Jun 2007 18:56

shiv wrote:Most of these people are newer members who do not know the history behind this. The idea of changing the thread when it reached 340 posts was yours because any thread changes to page 10 after 340 posts.


You are wrong. It was till page 9, regardless of the number of posts. Then a new thread starts.

shiv wrote:One of the things that I wanted to experiment with (for continuity) was to wait for the thread to reach 339 posts or even page 10 and then split off the last page or half page as the new thread. The old thread then automatically goes to the trashcan where people can look for it - while the new thread has half a page of posts that serve as continuity. This reduces the break in continuity that occurs when threads are changed. It also reduces admin workload because you don't have to find the url of the last page in the trashcan archive and put it on the first page of the new thread you have created.


That is why I provide a link at the beginning of each new thread. Saves all the work that you just explained above.

shiv wrote:One often finds that threads with an animated discussion suddenly goes dead when it is renewed. That can be prevented by allowing it to reach 335 plus posts (well into page 9, or even early page 10) and then splitting off the bottom 5-10 posts as the new thread. But only admins can do that. That of course does not mean that members should not start a new thread which they can if it has not received due admin attention.


Members are more than welcome to start a new thread. Myself, you or one of the other admins can edit the first post of the thread by providing a link to the last page.
Last edited by Rakesh on 23 Jun 2007 19:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jagan » 23 Jun 2007 19:04

Shivs idea of leaving half a dozen posts from the older thread is a better one to ensure continuity of the older thread.

whether more work or less work is ourcourse individual PoV

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Postby Cybaru » 23 Jun 2007 20:49

I am not sure the need for starting new threads for all discussions. Low intensity threads like photography threads and all can last for much longer. Maybe a yearly start of a new thread would be good.

It does not impact the server if there are more than 9 pages to every thread. I suggest that for some threads we let them live much longer instead of archiving stuff. It also leaves continuity and having to answer the same question over and over again for new members. the search button becomes quite useful.

If there are constraints on the database size then its an issue, but in this day and age of cheap storage and servers being offered at 1/20th the price from 2 years ago, I am inclined to think its a non issue.

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Postby shiv » 23 Jun 2007 21:02

Cybaru - in principle there can be no objection to threads running for more than 9 pages. If I recall right the original objection was related mainly to forum formatting which was getting upset beyond a particular number of pages. Even that may have been in an earlier version of forum software - it goes that far back.

My only feeling is that preserving that last few posts on each renewed thread (which is possible using the split thread function available to admins) helps preserve continuity in discussions.

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Postby Cybaru » 24 Jun 2007 07:16

Shiv,

yeah the old software was a little buggier. This one is a bit more robust. I installed and played with it quite a bit when I had the cricket threads going on chanakya 4/5 years ago.

I think for lots of threads like lca/sukhoi one can let them go on and on for years without the need to cull. This also serves a good research tool to have so much data handy..

I have seen other forums that rarely delete threads so new users have a easier time catching up with search function. This helps as it reduces admin workload to cull and police threads. Other users can always direct newbies to a similar discussion and they can catch up pretty fast with the rest of the forum.

A lot of oldies have to otherwise keep policing discussions to prevent repeating the same thing over and over and sometimes this sometimes causes heavy handedness which is unfortunate.
Last edited by Cybaru on 24 Jun 2007 07:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby shiv » 24 Jun 2007 07:24

I accept what you are saying 400 per cent Cybaru. I personally have no objections to threads running to 20 pages. Need to wait for some more inputs from users and admins on this issue.

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Postby Jagan » 24 Jun 2007 07:40

I can give one advantage (in terms of user friendliness) for limiting threads to 9 (or 10) pages.

When a thread is in 10 pages - you can access all the pages from the links generated at the top of the page - 1 to 10. The links will appear as

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next

So going from one page to any page is merely a single click operation.

But when a thread goes into say eighteen pages, the software truncates the page links - to

Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 16, 17, 18 Next

So going from 18 to page 10 will involve ..... SIX clicks - which is maha-annoying.

its easier to navigate the page by manipulating the URL address. but who wants to do that anyway

Check some forums out there that allows page generation .. say

http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/v ... &start=255 and http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/v ... .php?t=587 (you will need an ACIG account to test drive them)

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Postby shiv » 24 Jun 2007 07:41

Kartman wrote:Rohitvats, others: the article (or rather, series) is so pedestrian that it's best not to waste our breath over it. As shivji said, this just gives the numbskull who wrote it undue publicity/hits...


After Gulf war 2 blogs became overrated. They got the reputation of being maintained by heroes in the middle of war zones telling the truth as opposed to mainstream media.

It has therefore become fashionable for half-assed reporters and lesser beings (if such beings exist) to bleat their own views unopposed from a blog.

While mainstream media can be accused of employing underinformed twits as reporters - that particular defect is not corrected by a blog. The same twit gets to blog. A serious interactive forum gets "peer reviewed" in a sense because anyone who is bullshitting gets taken down fairly quickly.

Unless the overall quality of work in a blog is seriously good I do not think we should give it traffic just to say it is bad. Let the blogger generate his own traffic and his own Google ratings. After all you wouldn't keep revisiting garbage bin to reinforce the view that it's disgusting.

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Postby shiv » 24 Jun 2007 07:48

Jagan - you have a valid point there. I visit an alumni forum in which there is a humor thread with 99 pages currently.

It is impossible to go from page 99 to say page 52 without ten thousand clicks. This is the single most powerful reason for sticking to 9 pages.

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Postby Tilak » 24 Jun 2007 08:03

Cybaru wrote:Shiv,

yeah the old software was a little buggier. This one is a bit more robust. I installed and played with it quite a bit when I had the cricket threads going on chanakya 4/5 years ago.

I think for lots of threads like lca/sukhoi one can let them go on and on for years without the need to cull. This also serves a good research tool to have so much data handy..

I have seen other forums that rarely delete threads so new users have a easier time catching up with search function. This helps as it reduces admin workload to cull and police threads. Other users can always direct newbies to a similar discussion and they can catch up pretty fast with the rest of the forum.

A lot of oldies have to otherwise keep policing discussions to prevent repeating the same thing over and over and sometimes this sometimes causes heavy handedness which is unfortunate.


Let me put in my two..

I'm for archiving ~all threads, if Mods agree. But, I think it would be a bad idea to have threads run for more than single digit page no's and causing usablity issues to users who peruse the thread's regularly. Well, atleast not for the sake of making it easy for new users who find themselves in the middle of threads. The onus of finding info, should be left on them [to rummage through old/archived threads] ie. if ~all were archived/Google [ as phpbb's search feature ###s].

Eg. If I wanted to follow what has been "Posted since my last visit/Display topics for the past n days", where do I start in the above scenario.. Page 111 or Page 112/113..., while the above said feature puts me in the last/fist page. And this doesn't apply for a single thread [memorizing page numbers :shock: ], also bookmark folder size's are bound to increase considerably for each visit, as opposed to bookmarking a single favourite thread with ~9 pages + your ever increasing redundant click's.

Oh Darn.. Jagan beat me to it.. :twisted:

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Postby JaiS » 24 Jun 2007 09:04

Sometimes, some threads just go waaay offcourse, in which snap-locking the old thread and maintaining no continuity in the newer thread can be of some use. JMT !

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Postby disha » 24 Jun 2007 10:10

Jagan wrote:On Karan Thapar's Vilification of Field Marshal Manekshaw (Letter sent to the Editor, Hindustan Times by Gurmeet Kanwal on May 13, 2007)

... By contrast, Karan's own father, General P N Thapar, led the Indian army to a humiliating defeat against China ...

Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (Retd.)
Senior Fellow
Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS)


Now we know the rest of the story! :eek:

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Postby Cybaru » 24 Jun 2007 21:11

Well, how many times do you go back to page 52 from 99 ? Surely only a very few times when you are trying to catch up. Otherwise its only the last few pages, that most would be interested in when catching up, which works just fine as it displays the first few and last few threads in link.

I still think the model where everything is preserved would be useful to track things better.

Storage is pretty cheap. Researching a million articles and posting them on br is not. Think about all the valuable information lost when we do away with such posts.

I suggest a non deletion model. It would only enrich BR further. There maybe some inconvenience involved when catching up, but it would be positive gain at the end of the day.

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Postby JCage » 24 Jun 2007 21:20

Almost all the threads have info which cant be replicated. DRDO, Su-30 threads in particular, not to mention all the others where non archived news is posted.

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Postby ShauryaT » 24 Jun 2007 21:32

I am for all threads to be archived - permanently. I am sure admins would have an idea of the cost constraints and if cost is a constraint then let the forum members chip in. Cannot think of any other reason, for threads not to be archived.

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Postby mandrake » 25 Jun 2007 19:01

Can Ramana please get my registration done in india-forum i cannot post there my id is czar.

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Incorrect Link

Postby Amya » 27 Jun 2007 16:15

The link "Exercise Indradhanush" under "Recent Gallery Updates" on the home page needs to be corrected. It forwards to the "Canberra Retirement" page instead of the "Indradhanush" one.


p.s:I hope this is the right thread to post this.

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Postby K Mehta » 30 Jun 2007 13:42

Can we have a bot report thread? would remove the bot posts from ban list warning thread where only admins are supposed to post. Plz make it sticky, if you do make such a thread.

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Postby Raman » 01 Jul 2007 00:28

The PV-3 walk-around gallery from Aero-India is not working. All pictures give "OBJECT NOT FOUND" errors.

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Postby Jagan » 01 Jul 2007 01:01

Raman wrote:The PV-3 walk-around gallery from Aero-India is not working. All pictures give "OBJECT NOT FOUND" errors.



we have had to organise some of the gallery structures.

Where did you navigate to the galleries from? If it was from some link somewhere else, they are probably outdated. if it is on the BR main site, let me know and we will fix them.

Till then, you can just go to media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero and navigate your way into Walkarounds.

-Jagan

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Postby Raman » 01 Jul 2007 11:00

This is the link that I had bookmarked:
http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/Walkarounds/PV3Walk/

Thank you.

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Postby MN Kumar » 03 Jul 2007 00:46

Not able to access BR. But able to get to the forums thru: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/. I think except the forums no other section is accessible now.

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Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2007 01:38

MN Kumar: The issue has been resolved.

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Postby MN Kumar » 03 Jul 2007 01:51

Thanks Rakesh.

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Postby Amitabh » 05 Jul 2007 20:42

INS Jalashwa is L41, not LPD-41 as written on the ship's page.

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Postby Jagan » 06 Jul 2007 05:22

Just test drove the PhpBB3.0 RC2 version. just one word - awweesommme!!!!

Significant Features

For Users
*Attachments
*Ignore your "Foes"

For Moderators
*Spambots bye bye - thanks to a better Captcha system
*Easy pruning of users - and deletions
*Warnings and Automatic Banning features.
*Merging topics
*Global Announcements and Stickys

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Postby putnanja » 06 Jul 2007 05:32

Cool Jagan! So, when will BR see the new version? :D

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Postby Rahul Mehta » 06 Jul 2007 09:23

Suggestions :

1)Pls blindly copy orkut, or else ....

2)Pls do not delete threads whether they reach 10 page or 100 pages or 1000 pages.

Thanks

.

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Postby skher » 06 Jul 2007 18:25

For Users
*Attachments
*Ignore your "Foes"



What exactly does that imply for a newbie like me?
That I can attach videos and images to my posts and read only the posts of people that I like?

Small Bug in Gen JJ's Bio:
During his tenure with the 7th and 9th Maratha LI and also while on higher command & staff appointments, General Singh has served in Jammu & Kashmir, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim and Joshimath in Uttranchal Pradesh.


Please change Uttaranchal Pradesh to Uttarakhand.

More hyperlinks in the article would help too.Terms like NDA,Maratha Light,PVSM,chief Of Army Staff,First World War,ARTRAC etc. appearing on the page cld lead to corresponding articles on BR.

I think there is a software which makes internal hyper-linking as easy as on wikipedia..[[--link--]].


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