INA History Thread

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Postby parikh » 15 May 2007 23:50

Johann , indian soldiers have been joining the BIA and the East India Company since the start of our occupation ,they won many VC in WWI and also charged machine gun nests in WWI when there no fascists to fight and no INC and no sight of freedom.
The indian soldiers needed a job the British had one available ,the indian soldiers did their job well and fought well as a unit.

As for mercenary units ,Indian mercenary units called Purbias existed before the East India Company times and fought for the highest bidder and fought real well ,the remanants of them joined the East India Company.

They indian soldiers signed up for economic reasons to fight for the interests of an occupying force so why should the Indian army of today or nation recognize their role pre independence or be grateful to them.
There is enough native martial history pre East India Company times for the Indian army to be proud off.

I am sure the german army of today does not shed tears about the lack of regimental history and tradition for their SS combat divisions (unlike the BIA the SS fought for Germany) , maintaining it is incompatible with their current ideology.

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Postby Johann » 16 May 2007 00:56

indian soldiers have been joining the BIA and the East India Company since the start of our occupation


The profile of the Indian men who joined as officers in WWII couldnt have been more different than the days of the EIC.

These were not people who needed jobs, or who were driven by personal rivalries, or even just because they came from a background of professional soldiering.

parikh wrote:they won many VC in WWI and also charged machine gun nests in WWI when there no fascists to fight and no INC and no sight of freedom.


In many respects for India, WWI was very similar to WWII.

You had the same surge of Indians actually voluntarily contributing money to the war cause, volunteering for the war effort, etc.

And like WWII, there was a distinct claim that this was a war to preserve liberal ideals, that if India collectively sacrificed it would gain in exchange greater self-rule.

You had Wilson's 14 points proclaiming self-determination as a right, etc.

The disappointment of the failure of the Raj to live up to put real power in Indian hands after the war ended led *directly* to mass agitation in Punjab where so many of the soldiers came from, which produced the Rowlatt Act, which produced more resistance, etc.

You had *exactly* the same thing happen in Ireland - during the war few bothered cheering the IRA while their men were fighting against the Germans and the Turks. It was what the British did after the war that transformed people.

The ideals that WWI aroused among the masses were a big part of what compelled the INC to make the transition from a party that pressed for greater opportunities for the Indian elite, to a mass party that pressed for the interests of the majority.

I am sure the german army of today does not shed tears about the lack of regimental history and tradition for their SS combat divisions (unlike the BIA the SS fought for Germany) , maintaining it is incompatible with their current ideology.


The SS and the German Army were two quite different forces.

Today's German Army officer corps continues to strongly identify with its predecessors.

At the unit level there is no ties to the past, including its pre-Nazi past, and that has had a very negative effect on the Bundeswehr's capabilities.

The Prussian, and later German Army never seized power in its history. It was not an intriguing political army, but a sober and professional one.

In fact the German army plot to kill Hitler, take power and make peace with the West in 1944 was a one of a kind aberration in its history.

The fundamental problem lay not in the German army, but the militarism of German nationalism. It was the German nation that had to change, not the German army.

In the end the two things that matter most about armies are obedience to political authority, and military professionalism.

If they have both qualities, they should be respected, regardless of how we feel about the regime that employed them - that is because both of these qualities are rare and wonderful things, *PARTICULARLY* in combination with each other.

Any state or nation that inherits such an army would be foolish to undervalue, undermine or throw it away based on how it felt about the kind of regime that employed such an army in a previous era.

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Postby saty » 16 May 2007 11:50

Johann wrote:
Any state or nation that inherits such an army would be foolish to undervalue, undermine or throw it away based on how it felt about the kind of regime that employed such an army in a previous era.


Agree

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Postby saty » 16 May 2007 12:16

I personally find the "what if" debates exteremly fascinating (too much in love of Ghalib and his Yeh hota to kya hota I guess)

Interesting questions have been raised

1) Would Bose have been a democrat?
2) Would he have better integrated the Indian polity?
3) Could he have provided a counter weight to the partition.
4) Could he have created a militarily more dominant state than us today? Would that have been a good or a bad thing?

Who knows? But JCage to answer them we must look at Bose the man; and not Bose the Forward Bloc founder because a lot of the actions are taken in the context of the scenario which may not fully reflect what the Bose really wanted.

What if questions are best answered if we can get insights into what Bose really thought.

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Postby ramana » 30 May 2007 03:30

Has anyone read Nirad C Chaudhri on S Bose and the INA trials? He wrote this in 1952.

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Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2007 10:16


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Postby ramana » 21 Aug 2007 22:15

Deccan Herald has the following story

Link

[quote]
Elusive personal file of Rash Behari Bose found

From Shishir Prashant, DH News Service, Dehra Dun:



After one year of frantic search, mandarins at the FRI were able to locate the file in which it became clear that Bose had taken one month long leave when the attack took place for which four of his accomplices were hanged.

In the 150th year of the First War of Independence, the elusive personal file of legendary revolutionary Rash Behari Bose, who took leave from the Forest Research Institute (FRI), where he worked to carry out a bomb attack on Viceroy Lord Harding in 1912, has finally been found.
After one year of frantic search, mandarins at the FRI were able to locate the file in which it became clear that Bose had taken one month long leave when the attack took place for which four of his accomplices were hanged.
The file (no 73) also stated that Bose was soon terminated from services after it was found that it was he who masterminded the whole plot of Chandni Chowk in Delhi where the bomb was thrown on the procession of Harding on December 23, 1912.
As the blast ripped through the procession, Harding escaped with minor injuries. But the attack was able to shake the foundation of the British Empire in India.
“It is very heartening to note that the personal file of Rash Behari Bose has been found in our esteemed institution,â€

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Postby Rudranath » 08 Sep 2007 11:11

Manuscript of The History of Azad Hind Fauz (Indian National Army) with MOD
18:46 IST Lok Sabha
[quote]
[b]The manuscript of “The History of Azad Hind Fauz (Indian National Army)â€

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Hitler's secret Indian army

Postby Skanda » 19 Sep 2007 00:06

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm
Hitler's secret Indian army
The information they gave British intelligence was considered so sensitive that in 1945 it was locked away, not due to be released until the year 2021.

Now, 17 years early, the BBC's Document programme has been given special access to this secret file.It reveals how thousands of Indian soldiers who had joined Britain in the fight against fascism swapped their oaths to the British king for others to Adolf Hitler - an astonishing tale of loyalty, despair and betrayal that threatened to rock British rule in India, known as the Raj.

The story the German officers told their interrogators began in Berlin on 3 April 1941. This was the date that the left-wing Indian revolutionary leader, Subhas Chandra Bose, arrived in the German capital. Bose, who had been arrested 11 times by the British in India, had fled the Raj with one mission in mind. That was to seek Hitler's help in pushing the British out of India.

Six months later, with the help of the German foreign ministry, he had set up what he called "The Free India Centre", from where he published leaflets, wrote speeches and organised broadcasts in support of his cause. By the end of 1941, Hitler's regime officially recognised his provisional "Free India Government" in exile, and even agreed to help Chandra Bose raise an army to fight for his cause. It was to be called "The Free India Legion".

Bose hoped to raise a force of about 100,000 men which, when armed and kitted out by the Germans, could be used to invade British India.

He decided to raise them by going on recruiting visits to Prisoner-of-War camps in Germany which, at that time, were home to tens of thousands of Indian soldiers captured by Rommel in North Africa.

Volunteers

Finally, by August 1942, Bose's recruitment drive got fully into swing. Mass ceremonies were held in which dozens of Indian POWs joined in mass oaths of allegiance to Adolf Hitler.

These are the words that were used by men that had formally sworn an oath to the British king: "I swear by God this holy oath that I will obey the leader of the German race and state, Adolf Hitler, as the commander of the German armed forces in the fight for India, whose leader is Subhas Chandra Bose."

I managed to track down one of Bose's former recruits, Lieutenant Barwant Singh, who can still remember the Indian revolutionary arriving at his prisoner of war camp.

"He was introduced to us as a leader from our country who wanted to talk to us," he said.

"He wanted 500 volunteers who would be trained in Germany and then parachuted into India. Everyone raised their hands. Thousands of us volunteered."

Demoralised

In all 3,000 Indian prisoners of war signed up for the Free India Legion.

But instead of being delighted, Bose was worried. A left-wing admirer of Russia, he was devastated when Hitler's tanks rolled across the Soviet border.

Matters were made even worse by the fact that after Stalingrad it became clear that the now-retreating German army would be in no position to offer Bose help in driving the British from faraway India.

When the Indian revolutionary met Hitler in May 1942 his suspicions were confirmed, and he came to believe that the Nazi leader was more interested in using his men to win propaganda victories than military ones.

So, in February 1943, Bose turned his back on his legionnaires and slipped secretly away aboard a submarine bound for Japan. There, with Japanese help, he was to raise a force of 60,000 men to march on India.

Back in Germany the men he had recruited were left leaderless and demoralised. After mush dissent and even a mutiny, the German High Command despatched them first to Holland and then south-west France, where they were told to help fortify the coast for an expected allied landing.

After D-Day, the Free India Legion, which had now been drafted into Himmler's Waffen SS, were in headlong retreat through France, along with regular German units.

It was during this time that they gained a wild and loathsome reputation amongst the civilian population.

The former French Resistance fighter, Henri Gendreaux, remembers the Legion passing through his home town of Ruffec: "I do remember several cases of rape. A lady and her two daughters were raped and in another case they even shot dead a little two-year-old girl."

Finally, instead of driving the British from India, the Free India Legion were themselves driven from France and then Germany.

Their German military translator at the time was Private Rudolf Hartog, who is now 80.

"The last day we were together an armoured tank appeared. I thought, my goodness, what can I do? I'm finished," he said.

"But he only wanted to collect the Indians. We embraced each other and cried. You see that was the end."

Mutinies

A year later the Indian legionnaires were sent back to India, where all were released after short jail sentences.

But when the British put three of their senior officers on trial near Delhi there were mutinies in the army and protests on the streets.

With the British now aware that the Indian army could no longer be relied upon by the Raj to do its bidding, independence followed soon after.

Not that Subhas Chandra Bose was to see the day he had fought so hard for. He died in 1945.

Since then little has been heard of Lieutenant Barwant Singh and his fellow legionnaires.

At the end of the war the BBC was forbidden from broadcasting their story and this remarkable saga was locked away in the archives, until now. Not that Lieutenant Singh has ever forgotten those dramatic days.

"In front of my eyes I can see how we all looked, how we would all sing and how we all talked about what eventually would happen to us all," he said.


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Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2008 10:04

The BBC story has a lot of psy-ops. First of all Indian soldiers did not sing up to fight fascism. They were in the Army when the Viceroy declared war on Germany and the troops were sent to fight.

I am reading "A Hundred Horizons" The Indian Ocean in the Age of Global Empire by Sugata bose.

he hasa couple of chapters on INA. The German sub in which Netaji traveled was U-180. The Japanese sub he transferred to was 1-29.

The expatriate population of South East Asia contributed a lot to make the INA successful. About $2M Straits $ a month by 1943. So it was not only the soldiers but expatriates who made the INA possible.

More bye and bye.

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Postby Lalmohan » 17 Feb 2008 13:05

ramana wrote:The BBC story has a lot of psy-ops. First of all Indian soldiers did not sing up to fight fascism. They were in the Army when the Viceroy declared war on Germany and the troops were sent to fight.



I have read a number of books where the motivation for the many young indian officer volunteers (after the war started) is stated as joining the greater fight against fascism in order to win for india the right for freedom and self determination - "the brits will have to recognise us as equals". It is unlikely that many of the jawans would have understood these concepts well.

The IA also went through a major expansion and restructuring - not least to mobilise for war in North Africa and Malaya - and then following the Singapore debacle when effectively it was rebuilt as a much more modern fighting force - going on to fight the grisly Burma campaign

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Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2008 00:23

Kati wrote:
ramana wrote:I dont know if there is any bearing but there was a Maj Gen Kiyani of the INA who reverted back to TSP and became the governor of Gilgit area and had two commendations from Subash Chandra Bose and Ayub Khan. need to see if this Kiyani was any way related to him.


Ramana, you helped me recall a lot of memories. many years ago I did a thorough research on Azad Hind Fauz. Partly curiosity, partly due to "bhakti and shaddha" to Netaji, and partly to family lineage since I had a relative who was in Gandhi brigade of Azad Hind fauz.

There were two Kiyanis in Azad Hind fauz: (i) Mej. Gen. Md. Zaman Kiyani who headed the first Division, and (ii) Lt. Col. Inayat Kiyani, who headed the Gandhi brigade (where my relative, with a rank of a major and an army doctor joined).

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Hind_Fauz

After the fall of Rangoon, and the surrender of Azad Hind fauz, ...and after much water flew down Ganga, when the fauz members were acquitted, they appealed to Nehru for jobs in the Indian Army in independent India. Nehru had a strict order not to hire a single Azad Hind personnel. Zaman Kiyani, a very fine and accomplished lt. general, went to see Nehru, he literally cried and begged to him to give him a havildar's job. But nehru stood his ground. This made a large number of muslim Azad Hind personnel get disillusioned with independent india for which they sacrificed blood, toil, sweat and tears. many like zaman Kiyani, Inayat Kiyani, Habibur Rahman, Shah Nawaz Khan (whom Netaji suspected of being a british spy toward the fag end of the war) went and settled in Pakistan.
For the other soldiers and officers, mostly hindus (including my relative) and sikhs, it was a long battle. That's a different story.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby Paul » 19 Sep 2008 09:38


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Re: INA History Thread

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2008 21:21

Its crucial to remember the INA for its demise and non recognition of its role has imapcts even now and maybe for a long time.

Telegraph, Kolkota, 26 Sept 2008

A SPECIAL FORCE
- Patriots from another land


Women against the Raj: The Rani of Jhansi Regiment By Joyce Chapman Lebra, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, Price not mentioned

Buried in the historical, sociological and political information of Joyce Lebra’s readable book is the fascinating tale of four obscure, but indomitable, women who might be called non-resident Indians. But unlike today’s NRIs, Meenachi Perumal, Ammaloo, Anjalai Ponnusamy and Muniammah Rengasamy, girls from Malaya’s rubber plantations, gave without seeking any return when they joined the Indian National Army as teenagers to fight for a motherland they had never seen.

The Netaji legend has been done to death but in spite of the many books, including Lakshmi Sahgal’s A Revolutionary Life: Memoirs of a Political Activist, not enough is known about the simpler girls who rallied to Subhas Chandra Bose in Malaya and Burma. If only result legitimizes work, these Ranis, as Rani of Jhansi Regiment soldiers were called, did not achieve much. But their determination “to die for India” (quoting Rasammah Bhupalan, another local recruit) continued the Indian tradition of female service and sacrifice that is Lebra’s underpinning theme. She says Bose’s choice of name for the regiment was a conscious attempt to exalt “the ideology of the Cosmic Mother, of India as Mother, Bharat Mata”. Citing revolutionaries like Kalpana Dutt and Bina Das, Lebra argues that “the ideological, literary, and religious incarnations of the Mother reached their most complex and distinctive expressions” in Bengal where they also inspired political activity.

Not that she depicts Bose as an obsessive Bengali. On the contrary, when a woman recruit replied in Bengali to his question in English, Bose retorted angrily, “I don’t understand you. What makes you think you’re so special or I’m so special because we are Bengalis?… Remember this: I’m Indian first, I’m Indian second, I’m Indian third, I’m Indian every time. I’m always just Indian.” Rasammah, who told Lebra the story, “has refused to live in India after partition. ‘This is not the India we fought for,’ she says.”

Such vignettes make Lebra’s slim volume special, and it’s a pity there aren’t more. In fact, the first five chapters, 59 out of 108 pages (excluding an epilogue in which P. Ramasamy, an Indian Malaysian academic, argues that the INA encouraged post-war anti-British political activity) racily summarize history without any surprises for readers in India. Moreover, they are marred by printer’s devils and errors of fact. Far from being killed like the English in Kanpur in 1857, inmates of the Lucknow Residency were famously rescued in what became a stirring legend of British Indian history. Sri Aurobindo did not become “prominent” as “founder of Auroville”. Auroville was inaugurated 18 years after his death. Sri Aurobindo’s philosophical writings brought him renown.

Though she taught Indian history at Colorado University, India in general is definitely not Lebra’s forte. Where she scores is in tracking down the four surviving Ranis who greeted her with “Jai Hind!” and the INA’s raised-fist salute, saying they were ready to fight again. Muniammah, a tapper’s daughter who attended a Tamil estate school for five years, was only 13 when she insisted on enlisting. “The only thing on our minds was freeing India from the British. We were willing to give our lives to the cause.” A photograph by the author shows the aged, but cheerful, Muniammah saluting in her wartime cap.

Interviewing them in their homes through an interpreter must have been an arduous task for Lebra, who is of almost the same vintage. But she was already familiar with the subject, having written about Rani Lakshmibai’s exploits and INA-Japan relations. Used to wartime “comfort women”, the Japanese did not take the Ranis seriously. But Aung San, Burma’s charismatic nationalist leader who was murdered after independence, was so impressed that he asked Bose to raise a similar regiment of Burmese women. These Ranis were young, of humble origins and unlettered but they enjoyed an advantage over British Indian soldiers who escaped the brutality of Japanese PoW camps by joining Bose. As Lebra says, “from the Japanese perspective, the INA was tainted from the start” because “surrender did not exist in Japanese military rhetoric or practice”. In contrast, the Ranis fought because, to cite Promita Pal, “the sacrifice of our lives will reduce the whole of the British empire to ashes”.

Even the suggestion that most Malayan recruits were “the lowest of the low” and joined up to escape “racial slurs” and “the silent contempt in which they were held by Chinese and Malays” cannot flaw Meenachi’s heroism in volunteering for the Jan Baz “suicide unit”. The end was an anti-climax for girls who happily rose at dawn for gruelling training, marched with a rifle, tramped the Burmese jungle and refused to salute Japan’s flag because the Japanese did not salute India’s. As Muniammah lamented, “Our turn to fight never came; we had to retreat in 1944 by train.” One Rani tried to commit suicide rather than go back. Others signed a petition in their own blood begging to be sent into combat. It was not that they saw no action. Their camp was bombed right at the start, and Josephine and Stella were killed when their retreating train was attacked.

Bose saw his girl soldiers as symbolic of Lakshmibai. Just as the INA created a model of equality and harmony, the discipline and organization of the Ranis set an example of female empowerment. Or would if India had taken greater notice of humble Indian Malayan women who fought for a distant and virtually unknown motherland. Meenachi, Ammaloo, Anjalai and Muniammah may not be the only survivors. If India will not, the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, which sponsored Lebra, should commission a Tamil-speaking researcher to track down other forgotten INA survivors in the region for a more focussed chronicle of diasporic patriotism.

SUNANDA K. DATTA-RAY


Integrating women soldiers into the Indian armed forces was delayed by fifty years with a lot of fuddy/duddy arguements from koi hai saabs..

We can have a BR page for these forgotten heroines.

Also it might stiffen the IA's fighting spirit if they had a unit on the INA in their course work on how nationalistic ideas shape and form Armed forces. It wasnt all pacifist struggle for the Independence.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby ssmitra » 26 Sep 2008 22:34

ramana wrote:Its crucial to remember the INA for its demise and non recognition of its role has imapcts even now and maybe for a long time.

Telegraph, Kolkota, 26 Sept 2008



Integrating women soldiers into the Indian armed forces was delayed by fifty years with a lot of fuddy/duddy arguements from koi hai saabs..

We can have a BR page for these forgotten heroines.

Also it might stiffen the IA's fighting spirit if they had a unit on the INA in their course work on how nationalistic ideas shape and form Armed forces. It wasnt all pacifist struggle for the Independence.


This must have been said before, but I am sure the current IA has a course on the INA specially since their passing out song is "Kadam Kadam Badhai ja".

A very interesting discussion guys. This thread has become one of the best reads ever.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby Karan Dixit » 27 Sep 2008 03:17

Correct me if I am wrong but the formal name of Indian Army during Raaj was Royal Indian Army not British Indian Army.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby Jagan » 27 Sep 2008 03:27

Karan Dixit wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but the formal name of Indian Army during Raaj was Royal Indian Army not British Indian Army.



Nope, neither Royal Indian Army nor British Indian Army is correct - its just Indian Army.

However regiments within the IA may have Royal Prefix - eg - Royal Garhwal Rifles, Royal Indian Artillery etc

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby ssmitra » 27 Sep 2008 03:36

There once was a DD serial based on the red fort trials and I remember it being one of the most electrifying episodes I ever saw and had some of the best actors ever. This just came to mind after reading this thread. any of the old timers remember which series it was and if it can be watched. I would like to keep it for my daughter. She is only 11 moths right now but one day she will see it.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby Venkarl » 29 Sep 2008 13:25

Few war book titles on Indian Army+SAS ---Pre Independence Era

http://www.warbooks.com/brit.html

Sorry if already posted

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby shyamm » 30 Sep 2008 23:16

ssmitra wrote:There once was a DD serial based on the red fort trials and I remember it being one of the most electrifying episodes I ever saw and had some of the best actors ever. This just came to mind after reading this thread. any of the old timers remember which series it was and if it can be watched. I would like to keep it for my daughter. She is only 11 moths right now but one day she will see it.



Raj Se Swaraj ? in the mid-eighties
sadly the serial was taken off air midway due to political interfernce

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Re: Hitler's secret Indian army

Postby Baljeet » 01 Oct 2008 01:22

Skanda wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm
Hitler's secret Indian army
This was the date that the left-wing Indian revolutionary leader, Subhas Chandra Bose, arrived in the German capital. Bose, who had been arrested 11 times by the British in India, had fled the Raj with one mission in mind.


Only some Brit Jack Ass will call our legendary leader with resolve, guts and steel spine nationalist leader a leftist. SC Bose once said, "India is not ready for Gandhian type Democracy, there are so many ills afflicting India, we need to cure them first before we become a democratic nation"

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby HariC » 23 Jan 2009 20:34

Greetings on an day to remember and commemorate.

As the Mukherjee commission found out, he didn't die in that plane crash,
there was no such plane crash to begin with.


debatable but for another thread.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Karna_A » 24 Jan 2009 04:29

The role of Soviet Union has to be seen in Netaji's whereabouts. Also Shastri died in Tashkent under suspicious circumstances, Homi Bhabha plane crashed so did Scindia's. You would never see a Laloo/Mulayam/Arjun Singh plane crashing.
http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_060603.htm
The question is whether Stalin has exchanged Netaji for some very important Russian prisoner in the hands of the British
Jawaharlal Nehru and others were aware of Netaji's imprisonment in the erstwhile Soviet Union after World War II. But they did not want him to return to India as it would wreck the Govt. and the Congress party.


Rupesh wrote:Netaji will always remain an inspiration for patriotic Indians. Jai Hind!!!

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2009 05:45

Hindu

Netaji died in Taihoku, no need for more research: Italy envoy

And superb self goal by IITians. Too much test taking skills and not enough buddhi!

IITians demand homage to extremist leadersNetaji's b'anniv

Omendra Bharat, state president of the party, said: "It is strange that people remember Jawaharlal Nehru, Lal Bahadur Shastri and other moderate leaders, but they have completely forgotten the extremist leaders."


What an idiot totally Macaulayised!

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Karna_A » 24 Jan 2009 06:12

The problem is Kangress has been so far to the left that even centerists parties look like Right Wing and centrist leaders look like Extremists as below. Even BJP is more a centrist party than right wing. There is no yet true right wing party in India. Maybe its time for one, so atleast the definition of center becomes clear.


ramana wrote:Hindu

Netaji died in Taihoku, no need for more research: Italy envoy

And superb self goal by IITians. Too much test taking skills and not enough buddhi!

IITians demand homage to extremist leadersNetaji's b'anniv

Omendra Bharat, state president of the party, said: "It is strange that people remember Jawaharlal Nehru, Lal Bahadur Shastri and other moderate leaders, but they have completely forgotten the extremist leaders."


What an idiot totally Macaulayised!

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Keshav » 24 Jan 2009 11:25

I honestly don't believe a Left or Right exists in India. It just seems like politicians will do whatever is necessary to stay in power, which leads to contradictory positions and haphazard decisions.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 11:48

HariC wrote:Greetings on an day to remember and commemorate.

As the Mukherjee commission found out, he didn't die in that plane crash,
there was no such plane crash to begin with.


debatable but for another thread.


Maybe we can start it off here. I will move the relevant posts to another thread shortly.

The one stop for any info on the controversies is http://missionnetaji.org/

The crusade to get the GoI and other govts to make public some documents related to the (alleged) death of Netaji was lead by a HT journalist in Delhi named Anuj Dhar. It also has scanned copies of the reports of the 3 commissions.

I tried to be a dilettante air crash investigator, and came to the conclusion that it is very likely that Netaji did die in the crash. The passengers were traveling in a Sally bomber, (which has very narrow interiors) and Netaji was sitting behind the cockpit, next to a fuel tank (which would have ruptured in the crash). Netaji succumbed to burn wounds.

I managed to gather photos of the interior of the Sally bomber. I can post them if junta is interested in this esoteric topic.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby RayC » 24 Jan 2009 12:00

One wonders why the govt of free India while praising and remembering all and sundry political people have always low keyed Netaji Subash Chandra Bose (giving the full name since there are people who are mistaking the real Netaji with other non entities in comparison)!

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 12:05

RayC wrote:One wonders why the govt of free India while praising and remembering all and sundry political people have always low keyed Netaji Subash Chandra Bose (giving the full name since there are people who are mistaking the real Netaji with other non entities in comparison)!


Because he is a UN designated war criminal? Similarly, we can ask why the IA chooses to completely ignore the INA - and consider it a dark (and closed) chapter in its history.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby RayC » 24 Jan 2009 12:28

Rishi wrote:
RayC wrote:One wonders why the govt of free India while praising and remembering all and sundry political people have always low keyed Netaji Subash Chandra Bose (giving the full name since there are people who are mistaking the real Netaji with other non entities in comparison)!


Because he is a UN designated war criminal? Similarly, we can ask why the IA chooses to completely ignore the INA - and consider it a dark (and closed) chapter in its history.


The IA chose to ignore INA since they took a stand that anyone who has taken an oath to serve A or B, should not change allegiance, without resigning and changing sides.

The rationale is this that in the Army or Armed Forces, there are many orders given which do not appeal and yet to keep the efficiency, it is to be obeyed and the results obtained, in the interest of whatever govt is in power and follow its policies. That is why discussing politics is a taboo in the Army even now. If each man in the Armed Forces followed his conscience truly, then there would be chaos. Discipline is termed as 'subjugating one's desire for the good of the team'. For instance, a Lt Gen's Committee pruned down the IA to suit the govt's diktat and the consequence was felt in the Kargil War. Should one who has suffered as a consequence go by his conscience and lynch the Lt Gen or opt to do a mutiny against the govt?!

It is taught in the Army that if one does not agree with the govt policies, they should first resign and then as a common citizen take up the cause!

I appreciate the nationalist fervour, which is so right, but then, one has to understand the consequences if an unbridled personal opinion contrary to the govt of the day's policy is allowed to flourish!

Do you think the Sikh officers in Op Bluestar enjoyed storming the Golden Temple? It was their discipline and the fact that they subjugated their personal opinion and sentiments for the good of the Nation and religion is a powerful potion! Kudos to the discipline of the Sikhs involved.

While the case is still murky and foggy, let us say that Lt Col Purohit really let his inner self dictate him to do what he is alleged to have done, is that condonable?.

Does it in anyway mean that the IA should tell him 'Shabash'?

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 13:10

Sir,

I understand what you are saying. However, exceptional circumstances demand exceptions.

We are not the IA, not the BIA. Surely some retrospective reconciliation with an undeniably just cause (The Indian Independence movement) can be facilitated? This can be looked at without judgment, without condemming or wah-wahing either the INA or the BIA.

IMHO only.

Also, OT, if soldiers always "followed orders", then there would be very few culpable for war crimes.

Forumites, any clue how the current Heer and Luftwaffe consider their Nazi heritage/history?

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 13:14

However, the other than the INA, no one has asked for reconciliation, and as last of the INA vets fade away, this will forever be a closed chapter.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby RayC » 24 Jan 2009 14:36

Rishi wrote:Sir,

I understand what you are saying. However, exceptional circumstances demand exceptions.

We are not the IA, not the BIA. Surely some retrospective reconciliation with an undeniably just cause (The Indian Independence movement) can be facilitated? This can be looked at without judgment, without condemming or wah-wahing either the INA or the BIA.

IMHO only.

Also, OT, if soldiers always "followed orders", then there would be very few culpable for war crimes.

Forumites, any clue how the current Heer and Luftwaffe consider their Nazi heritage/history?


As a patriot. you are right.

As a person who has to bear the brunt, I rather be comfortable that people in the ranks do not start questioning orders or have a change of heart and rise in rebellion!

Imagine the JAK LI deciding that they would be 'freedom fighters' allied to the terrorists!

Please understand that we are not gleeful in killing terrorists or even the Kashmiri terrorists of JKLF. It is heart wrenching. But we have to do it. Either the country is saved or it is destroyed.

What is your choice?

Disloyalty, no matter how high in morals, is not acceptable if one is maintain the sanctity of the Nation, even if the government of the day is pits and one is not too happy with it!

Culpability is the prerogative of the victors. It is not fair, but then that is how it is!

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Aditya G » 24 Jan 2009 16:33

What happened to INA officers and men after we got our independence? Were they commisioned into the IA?

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 16:37

Aditya G wrote:What happened to INA officers and men after we got our independence? Were they commisioned into the IA?


AFAIK all were court martialed or cashiered, many were killed by the Brits. They put a show trial of 3 chaps at the Red Fort, only to have all of India aflame at this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INA_trials

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 16:55

I think we have an INA thread here somewhere. Will move all there posts there.

BTW, the IN has looked at the RIN Mutiny/Naval Uprising of 1946 with a little less shame. Following is the wiki link to the fascinating story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Mutiny

One of the reasons for the Mutiny was the INA trials.

I remember seeing a Sound & Light about the uprising show at the Naval Dockyards (Lion Gate) in Mumbai in 1996 (to mark 50 years).

More recently, the RIN Mutiny has been renamed the Naval Uprising and the mutineers honoured for the part they played in India's Freedom. In addition to the statue which stands in Mumbai opposite the sprawling Taj Wellingdon Mews, two prominent mutineers, Madan Singh and B.C Dutt, have each had ships named after them by the Indian Navy.

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Re: INA History Thread

Postby Rishi » 24 Jan 2009 16:56

BTTT

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby Rahul M » 24 Jan 2009 17:23

any idea why the difference in perception ?

btw, from the wiki link :
Most of the INA. soldiers were set free after cashiering and forfeiture of pay and allowance.[5] On the recommendation of Lord Mountbatten, and agreed by Nehru, as a precondition for Independence the INA soldiers were not reinducted into the Indian Army.

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby SRoy » 24 Jan 2009 22:23

RayC wrote:
Rishi wrote:Sir,

I understand what you are saying. However, exceptional circumstances demand exceptions.

We are not the IA, not the BIA. Surely some retrospective reconciliation with an undeniably just cause (The Indian Independence movement) can be facilitated? This can be looked at without judgment, without condemming or wah-wahing either the INA or the BIA.

IMHO only.

Also, OT, if soldiers always "followed orders", then there would be very few culpable for war crimes.

Forumites, any clue how the current Heer and Luftwaffe consider their Nazi heritage/history?


As a patriot. you are right.

As a person who has to bear the brunt, I rather be comfortable that people in the ranks do not start questioning orders or have a change of heart and rise in rebellion!

Imagine the JAK LI deciding that they would be 'freedom fighters' allied to the terrorists!

Please understand that we are not gleeful in killing terrorists or even the Kashmiri terrorists of JKLF. It is heart wrenching. But we have to do it. Either the country is saved or it is destroyed.

What is your choice?

Disloyalty, no matter how high in morals, is not acceptable if one is maintain the sanctity of the Nation, even if the government of the day is pits and one is not too happy with it!

Culpability is the prerogative of the victors. It is not fair, but then that is how it is!


Extremely lame arguements Brig. Ray

So
1. A bunch of johnnies from JAK LI deserting to Hizbul Mujahedeen == some god forsaken PoW's in Burmese wilderness signing up with INA ... a nationalist Army.

2. PoWs of surrendered mercenary army (true description of the British Indian Army) deciding to fight for their own motherland is treason (even when the master of the mercenaries have left).

3. A bunch of separatists == freedom fighters (their fault being that they wore some uniforms).

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Re: Greetings on Netaji's birthday

Postby RayC » 24 Jan 2009 22:32

S Roy,

Read Philip Mason's 'Matter of Honour' to understand how the mindset was built up.

By your reckoning anyone who mutinies should be reinstated.

Why should the poor Sikhs who mutinied after Bluestar suffer?

Why should the poor bloke who fragged his officers be tried and thrown out?

And why should there not be a trade union in the Armed Forces?

Why should the armed forces not be members of a political party?

I am all for it. The Army should go on strike and demand their rights and pay increase etc. And when Pakistan attacks they do damn all till they get their due.

OK by you?

Indeed, the British Indian Army were a bunch of 'mercenaries' that was milked from a nation of civilians without a spine!

Jaisa kam waisa dam!

Quit posturing after the act.


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