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UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 06 Feb 2016 12:26

sum wrote:^^ While having chai at local chai-store, caught some chatpatta along with chai:

Rustom-2 seems in deep doo-doo with severe weight issues and current engine being unable to handle it leading to uprating requirements and has been given till August to shape up and deliver or the program might mostly be canned.

Also, apparently the Kaveri test in the Il-76 testbed very badly and the true picture was not given outside but inside story was supposedly not too pretty and heard that the blades ever cracked up etc.

Nirbhay also not too good picture with previous failure due to the connector snapping off due to vibrations and lots of tu-tu main-main between QA and designers. However, the project has gone inot no leak mode and no news of whats going on currently

Thats all was forthcoming in particular chai stall.



As usual with calculated leaks the issue is sought to be deflected like in IJT. In case of Rustom-2, a issue is created about non-supply of actuators though as per the rumors circulating, the real issues are over-weight and poor aerodynamic designing of fuselage. The propaganda about high usage of composites has been beaten to death while camouflaging the issue that the ability to optimize the weight of support structure is minimal on which the composite panels are bolted on. I wonder why the usage of Titanium is not being increased to get over the weight problems in "all" the flight capable defense projects.

Kaveri faced problems in "LP" during tests which has nothing to do with high tech & high temperature components that are being whined about by GTRE.

Nirbhay is directly and indirectly a 30 year old project and most of the components are imported, still they have managed to mess it up.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby member_28108 » 06 Feb 2016 17:14

^ Don't be surprised if those controlled leaks actually have a strategic importance

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srai » 07 Feb 2016 06:10

Zynda,

If you look at all aircraft development around the world, you will discover that overweight problem is a more common issue than otherwise. There's usually a dedicated and ongoing effort at weight reduction through various optimization of over-engineered components and materials. It's a long drawn out process.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Shreeman » 07 Feb 2016 12:36

The thing is, manufacturing elsewhere, is better at predicting these overruns and compensating for them and having a plan b.

One could say, nishant out of the window and r2 in the ground via weak engine. bye bye uav aspirations? what is the plan b?

edit -- poor design? it hasnt taken off. forget performance. even saras flew. is it so bad that the wing is useless?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Cybaru » 08 Feb 2016 02:59

Can we get off this doom and gloom? If it's broken, it will get fixed. There is always a learning gap, it will be overcome, that is why there is perhaps no news. If we can put spacecraft on mars, we can do Nirbhay and Rustom.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby member_22539 » 08 Feb 2016 09:42

^You don't get it. Some people want to whine and sulk, and are absolutely uninterested in logical explanations for the way things are and what can be done to fix them.

I sometimes feel that BRF will lose half its membership if things actually start going well and there is no good excuse to whine and moan. :roll:

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby jayasimha » 27 Feb 2016 07:44

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... as-422460/


DRDO claims Nishant programme still alive after crash

26 FEBRUARY, 2016 BY: BETH STEVENSON LONDON
India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) insists its indigenous Nishant unmanned air vehicle programme is alive and well, despite reports it had been shelved after a crash in November.

In fact, DRDO says it is now developing a new variant of the 20-year-old design – a wheeled model called the Panchi.

“A product improvement project, Panchi (wheeled version of Nishant), catering to the army requirement of conventional take-off and landing has been undertaken,” the DRDO says. “The project is in an advanced stage of development. Panchi could be utilised by [the] army for their tactical UAV requirements.”

The surveillance UAV is catapult-launched and parachute-recovered, and it is believed the failed release of the parachute led to the November crash. The army had a requirement for 12 of the type, but it is believed only four were delivered, and all four crashed.


India is keen to have a presence in the UAV market, and in July 2015 Indian company Tata Advanced Systems announced it had teamed with Boeing to develop unmanned systems.

A February 2015 deal between Indian Dynamatic Technologies and the USA’s AeroVironment, meanwhile, will lead to the development of the “Cheel” UAV, derived from the latter’s family of small UAVs.

There has also been speculation India wishes to buy larger Western systems such as the ubiquitous General Atomics Aeronautical Systems MQ-9 Reaper, but its failure to be signed on to the Missile Technology Control Regime could prevent this. The nation has, however, acquired a number of Israel Aerospace Industries Heron UAVs

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 29 Feb 2016 16:45

Bharat Forge to develop indigenous UAV engines

The UAV engine we are doing indigenously. I have told my engineers in Pune that I want to see the engine in one year.


Looks like these are the 100hp engines for Rustom-2.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby member_23370 » 29 Feb 2016 23:32

Good. IA needs armed drones ASAP.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 01 Mar 2016 04:53

Neela wrote:Bharat Forge to develop indigenous UAV engines

The UAV engine we are doing indigenously. I have told my engineers in Pune that I want to see the engine in one year.


Looks like these are the 100hp engines for Rustom-2.

Rustom-2 prototypes will be powered by the Rotax 914F3 engines. The production models are supposed to be powered by 200 HP diesel engines powered by Tech Mahindra. But where is Rustom-2?!!!

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Vipul » 14 Mar 2016 17:27

Defence Ministry all set to equip all infantry units with UAV squad.

The defence ministry is set to clear an army proposal to equip all infantry and mechanised battalions with a new squad of mini-unmanned aerial vehicles for deeper insights into the battlefield. While the UAVs will have a limited range of 10 km, they would provide vital intelligence for ground troops.

A proposal to purchase 1,800 mini-UAVs, along with ground systems and support, is likely to get the goahead at a defence ministry meeting this week, followed by approval by the defence acquisition committee, senior officials told ET.

Defence Ministry all set to equip all infantry units with UAV squadThe planned purchase will also boost the private industry as it will be categorised as a 'Make in India' project, with the potential of orders increasing exponentially over the next few years. Officials said the plan is to raise 600 UAV squads - each consisting of three 'birds', a ground control system and a heavy vehicle.

These squads will be attached to all infantry and armoured battalions of the Indian Army, which currently rely on information from other units that operate longerrange UAVs such as the Heron and Searcher of Israeli origin. Infantry battalions posted in conflict zones do occasionally purchase and operate mini UAVs, but they are not yet part of standard equipment.

Following the defence ministry's clearance, the army is set to float tenders for the UAVs. At least a dozen Indian companies are expected to bid for the contract and several of them have tied up with foreign vendors for technology transfer.

The move to have competitive trials for the mini-UAV project has also thrown questions on an Indo-US project that was cleared at the political level. The high-profile Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, which was even discussed between PM Narendra Modi and US President Barack Obama, included an understanding that US firm AeroVironment would tie up with Bengaluru-based Dynamatic Technologies to develop a new light UAV for tactical reconnaissance for the army.

The army is looking for UAVs with a range of at least 10 km at a complete system weight of less than 35 kg. The mini-UAV would need to give remote video feed with allweather capability and loiter time of 45 minutes.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 14 Mar 2016 17:48

Vipul wrote:Defence Ministry all set to equip all infantry units with UAV squad.

The defence ministry is set to clear an army proposal to equip all infantry and mechanised battalions with a new squad of mini-unmanned aerial vehicles for deeper insights into the battlefield. While the UAVs will have a limited range of 10 km, they would provide vital intelligence for ground troops.

A proposal to purchase 1,800 mini-UAVs, along with ground systems and support, is likely to get the goahead at a defence ministry meeting this week, followed by approval by the defence acquisition committee, senior officials told ET.

Defence Ministry all set to equip all infantry units with UAV squadThe planned purchase will also boost the private industry as it will be categorised as a 'Make in India' project, with the potential of orders increasing exponentially over the next few years. Officials said the plan is to raise 600 UAV squads - each consisting of three 'birds', a ground control system and a heavy vehicle.

These squads will be attached to all infantry and armoured battalions of the Indian Army, which currently rely on information from other units that operate longerrange UAVs such as the Heron and Searcher of Israeli origin. Infantry battalions posted in conflict zones do occasionally purchase and operate mini UAVs, but they are not yet part of standard equipment.

Following the defence ministry's clearance, the army is set to float tenders for the UAVs. At least a dozen Indian companies are expected to bid for the contract and several of them have tied up with foreign vendors for technology transfer.

The move to have competitive trials for the mini-UAV project has also thrown questions on an Indo-US project that was cleared at the political level. The high-profile Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, which was even discussed between PM Narendra Modi and US President Barack Obama, included an understanding that US firm AeroVironment would tie up with Bengaluru-based Dynamatic Technologies to develop a new light UAV for tactical reconnaissance for the army.

The army is looking for UAVs with a range of at least 10 km at a complete system weight of less than 35 kg. The mini-UAV would need to give remote video feed with allweather capability and loiter time of 45 minutes.


Again the emphasis is only on import based solutions looking for problems. The super urgent requirements of our infantry which is fighting Pakistani Special forces (read terrorists) on daily basis is "first" and foremost:-

BPJs
Bullet proof Shields
Daksh (Indigenous Unmanned ground Vehicles)
Many times larger number of Night sights/Thermal sights compared to current issue rate
Across the board issue of day time optical, reflex sights and laser range finders
Anti-Material Rifles, disposable-light RPGs
Vehicles Mounted HMGs
Sophisticated shooting ranges

But alas everything is indigenous, so nothing will happen on this count and/or everything will happen super slowly.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 14 Mar 2016 18:01

The fake story about Rustom-2 is that there is a problem with import of actuators. The other excuse is that the airframe is overweight, but even then it could have been flown without payload. The Rumors are that the fuselage is badly designed and it cannot even take off. My conspiracy theory is that after the tender was awarded to HAL for 15 Rustom-2, the Israeli lobby got into the act to delay/kill our indigenous UAV. Guess, how sweet it would be to get paid not to do anything.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vishvak » 14 Mar 2016 21:56

Not sure how much problem can there be with import of actuators.
Some comments http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1157437

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby jayasimha » 17 Mar 2016 21:21

India places drones on prohibited and dutiable goods list

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-places-d ... st-1547263

As more drones take to the skies and their cost continues to drop, several countries are looking to regulate the import and use of drones within their borders. The Indian government has decided to revise the Indian Customs Declaration Form to include drones in the list of prohibited and dutiable goods making it compulsory for travellers entering India to declare and pay duty for them from 1 April.
According to the new customs rules, only passengers who carry prohibited or dutiable goods will have to fill the customs form upon arrival. Although there is no ban on the import of drones into India, there are restrictions on their use. It is currently illegal for civilians to use drones in India due to security, privacy and safety concerns.
Why advertise with us
In October 2014, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) announced that until proper rules and regulations are formulated, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) are forbidden from taking to Indian airspace for any non-government agency, organisation or individual without prior authorisation. If you are looking to get permission, you will require approval from the DGCA, Air Navigation Service Provider, the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Home Affairs and other concerned agencies.
Several countries have drafted new rules to respond to the massive growth in sales and series of high-profile security concerns and cases. SZ DJI Technology Co, often touted as the "Apple of the drone industry," recorded sales of about $1bn (£7.1m). According to ABI Research, consumer drone revenues are forecast to reach $4.6bn in 2025.
Regulators, however, are concerned about the difficulty of enforcing new rules to track and monitor drones.
"Even the U.S. is struggling with similar issues. While we are looking at international best practice, DGCA and MOCA are working [with] the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is responsible for homeland security, to allow civilian use of drones without a security component," R N Choubey, Secretary of the Ministry of Civil Aviation told AIN Online. "We are struggling. This is a transition phase. If somebody does something dangerous, we have our standard operating procedures."
Despite the blanket ban on drone usage, many civilians still continue to buy, sell and use drones in India. With no official guidelines in place, drones have been used to film lavish weddings and Bollywood movies. Chinese drones are also openly sold online and in stores in many Indian cities,including Musafirkhana and Manish Market in Mumbai which is, ironically, close to the police commissioner's office at Crawford Market.
However, there have been numerous instances where the use of drones was restricted. In February, nine Ukranian nationals were detained in Tamil Nadu for taking videos and photographs of the Arunachaleswar temple using a drone. Two weeks later, an American citizen was caught taking photos of the Khajuraho temple in Madhya Pradesh using a drone camera.
Government agencies have primarily imported drones for surveillance, monitoring India's borders with China, Pakistan and Bangladesh and maintaining law and order. Apart from military and law enforcement, drones have also been used for wildlife conservation, agriculture, remote monitoring and other uses in India.
"It's true that since there are no regulations, many things remain undefined," said Shinil Shekhar, co-founder of Airpix — a Mumbai-based startup that offers UAV services. "In an unregulated market, there will be irresponsible usage, with its potential threat to public safety. But banning an entire technology just because no regulations have been framed is also not justified."
More about drones:
• Drone Racing League: Everything you need to know about the sport of the future
• India Deployed Combat Jets Mistaking Migratory Birds for Drones
• Eagles trained to take out drones in new Dutch police programme
• CES 2016: Self-flying camera drone from Lily Robotics earns $34m in pre-orders
• Pie in the Sky: Unmanned Flying Drones Delivering Pizza in Russia

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby d_berwal » 17 Mar 2016 21:28

jayasimha wrote:India places drones on prohibited and dutiable goods list

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-places-d ... st-1547263

As more drones take to the skies and their cost continues to drop, several countries are looking to regulate the import and use of drones within their borders. The Indian government has decided to revise the Indian Customs Declaration Form to include drones in the list of prohibited and dutiable goods making it compulsory for travellers entering India to declare and pay duty for them from 1 April.
According to the new customs rules, only passengers who carry prohibited or dutiable goods will have to fill the customs form upon arrival. Although there is no ban on the import of drones into India, there are restrictions on their use. It is currently illegal for civilians to use drones in India due to security, privacy and safety concerns.
Why advertise with us
In October 2014, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) announced that until proper rules and regulations are formulated, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) are forbidden from taking to Indian airspace for any non-government agency, organisation or individual without prior authorisation. If you are looking to get permission, you will require approval from the DGCA, Air Navigation Service Provider, the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Home Affairs and other concerned agencies.
Several countries have drafted new rules to respond to the massive growth in sales and series of high-profile security concerns and cases. SZ DJI Technology Co, often touted as the "Apple of the drone industry," recorded sales of about $1bn (£7.1m). According to ABI Research, consumer drone revenues are forecast to reach $4.6bn in 2025.
Regulators, however, are concerned about the difficulty of enforcing new rules to track and monitor drones.
"Even the U.S. is struggling with similar issues. While we are looking at international best practice, DGCA and MOCA are working [with] the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is responsible for homeland security, to allow civilian use of drones without a security component," R N Choubey, Secretary of the Ministry of Civil Aviation told AIN Online. "We are struggling. This is a transition phase. If somebody does something dangerous, we have our standard operating procedures."
Despite the blanket ban on drone usage, many civilians still continue to buy, sell and use drones in India. With no official guidelines in place, drones have been used to film lavish weddings and Bollywood movies. Chinese drones are also openly sold online and in stores in many Indian cities,including Musafirkhana and Manish Market in Mumbai which is, ironically, close to the police commissioner's office at Crawford Market.
However, there have been numerous instances where the use of drones was restricted. In February, nine Ukranian nationals were detained in Tamil Nadu for taking videos and photographs of the Arunachaleswar temple using a drone. Two weeks later, an American citizen was caught taking photos of the Khajuraho temple in Madhya Pradesh using a drone camera.
Government agencies have primarily imported drones for surveillance, monitoring India's borders with China, Pakistan and Bangladesh and maintaining law and order. Apart from military and law enforcement, drones have also been used for wildlife conservation, agriculture, remote monitoring and other uses in India.
"It's true that since there are no regulations, many things remain undefined," said Shinil Shekhar, co-founder of Airpix — a Mumbai-based startup that offers UAV services. "In an unregulated market, there will be irresponsible usage, with its potential threat to public safety. But banning an entire technology just because no regulations have been framed is also not justified."
More about drones:
• Drone Racing League: Everything you need to know about the sport of the future
• India Deployed Combat Jets Mistaking Migratory Birds for Drones
• Eagles trained to take out drones in new Dutch police programme
• CES 2016: Self-flying camera drone from Lily Robotics earns $34m in pre-orders
• Pie in the Sky: Unmanned Flying Drones Delivering Pizza in Russia



copy paste do we have rule for it?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby VinodTK » 21 Mar 2016 04:59

India Finalizes $3B Blueprint for UAV Fleets
NEW DELHI — Indian defense forces have finalized a blueprint to procure more than 5,000 UAVs over the next 10 years for about US $3 billion, and tenders will be restricted to domestic companies that can tie up with foreign firms, said a Ministry of Defence source.

Lack of industrial expertise, combined with delays and cost overruns, have stymied past efforts to develop and produce indigenous UAVs for tactical requirements. These efforts also were limited to state-owned companies.

"In the future, the private sector will be involved in a big way to meet all future requirements of UAVs," said an MoD official.

In the next three to five years, the Indian Army proposes to equip UAVs down to the battalion level, while the Air Force plans to have fully operational squadrons of surveillance UAVs and unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAV).

The plan includes the induction of many man-portable mini and micro UAVs for short-range surveillance, and nuclear, biological, chemical detection in the battlefield.

The Indian Army, Air Force and Navy propose to buy tactical UAVs, high-altitude long-endurance (HALE) UAVs, vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) UAVs, and medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) UAVs.

Homegrown Programs Underway

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is developing a variety of UAVs for the services, including:

• Air Force: Three Rustom UCAVs and one ground station at a cost of $60 million; two stealth UCAVs called autonomous unmanned research aircraft (AURA) and one ground station for $75 million; 30 Nirbhay UAVs and unspecified numbers of Lakshya-II remotely piloted high speed target drones at a cost of $531,687 per unit.

• Navy: Three Rustom UCAVs and one ground station for $60 million with 12 more to come; 10 MALE Rustoms at a cost of $225 million; four Pawan mini UAVs for $33.2 million; 50 air- and ship-launched Nirbhay UAVs; three rotary UAVs at a cost of $232 million; unspecified numbers of Netra micro UAVs for $50,000 per unit; and Gagan tactical UAVs at a cost of $55 million with help from Israel.

• Army:Three Rustom UCAVs and one ground station at a cost of $60 million and 12 more in the future; 10 Rustom-2 UCAVs for $342.3 million; 12 Nishant UAVs at a cost of $5 million each; and three hybrid mini-UAVs and one ground station for $350,000.

DRDO is also supplying about 25 Netra micro UAVs to Indian paramilitary forces at a cost of $50,000 per unit.

An MoD source said that in the next two years, fresh tenders will be floated for a variety of UAVs, and that a concept study has been started on development of a bomber UAV and a fighter UAV.

Major programs that have been finalized for the Army include induction of 500 mini and macro UAVs and an unspecified number of HALE UAVs; for the Air Force are an unspecified number of UCAVs, 95 micro unmanned aerial systems and an unspecified number of small VTOL and mini unmanned aerial systems; for the Navy are 95 micro unmanned aerial systems and unspecified numbers of HALE UAVs costing around $200 million.

In addition, DRDO also has an independent unmanned surveillance air vehicle on the drawing board, which is similar to the X-45 and X-47 developed in the US and is also scouting for a partner to develop a solar-powered HALE UAV.

Currently Indian defense forces are operating Israeli-made Searcher Mark I, Searcher Mark II, Heron and Herop UAVs and the Indian-made Nishant UAV.

Neela
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 21 Mar 2016 13:07

^^
Confused onlee. Nirbhay UAV?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 21 Mar 2016 17:19

Must be Prasun Chorgupta

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 22 Mar 2016 05:08

some yarn around the Nirbhay UAV, typically its launched from a canister, however they can choose to launch it with its wing in the extended position say from a catapult, similar to the one used for Nishant. Dual rails of Helina are mounted under the wings, the missile has a EO ball in the nose, it goes terror camp hunting with 4 Helina missiles and maybe after couple of hours of loitering in contested space in terrain masking mode comes back to land like the Panchi using wheels or if the sea harrier is an inspiration, they should modify it to land like the sea harrier

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby member_29350 » 22 Mar 2016 08:41

Not sure whether it comes in here but here goes

A ‘ROVer’ of a different kind, this


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/spe ... 381842.ece

Planys has built a remotely operated vehicle (ROV), or an underwater robot in simple terms, which it has started using for industrial clients to test their underwater structures. The ROV is meant to be used in shallow waters. That, the NDT expertise that is built into and the analysis that can be done gives the founders the confidence that they have got a world-beater of a product.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 30 Mar 2016 12:57

Rustom II - High res here: http://www.airliners.net/photo/2410756/L/

ANyone having clarity on Rustom-I and Rsutom-H . Wiki mentions this.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 08 Apr 2016 17:50

India in talks to buy US Predator drones

While this is a good development if true, its also shows the failed planning where the cross border terrorist threat was being fought for the last 15 years after both these events have passed,
the Kargil war after which armed forces should have woken up to the priority of sub conventional warfare and
the start of Usage of Predators in Af-Pak region.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 09 Apr 2016 04:21

We would also need expendable UAVs that cost much less than an AMRAAM, so losing them to air to air missiles is sustainable. The advantage is 90% of our target zone is right across the border so the endurance and size requirements are very less.

Also, any attempt to create a South Asian 'Biosphere' of sorts where money is siphoned from the American outsourced defence MIC as part of the 'Make in India' program and then is used to subsidize paki mil purchases should be resisted. Even if seen as a by-product that is against common sense.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Viv S » 28 Jun 2016 06:05

India Seeks Predator Drones from US

Vivek Raghuvanshi, Defense News

NEW DELHI - Within days of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Washington this month, and India's entry into Missile Technology Control Regime backed by President Barack Obama, New Delhi has sought to buy Predator drones from US-based General Atomics through the Foreign Military Sales program.

The letter of Request (LoR) for purchase of 22 of the unmanned aircraft for the Indian Navy was sent to US June 17, an official of the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) said.

The Indian Navy wants to use the Predator drone, which can fly at an altitude of 50,000 feet, for maritime surveillance over the Indian Ocean, said an Indian Navy official.

India has bought weapons worth $10 billion in the last ten years through the FMS route, but New Delhi wants to shift this defense relationship from simply purchasing weapons to co-developing and co-producing them.

To that end, India and the United States set up the Defense Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI), a forum for identifying joint projects that could meet the “Make in India” requirements spelled out by the Indian government.

Two major programs being considered in that context include transfer of technology for the proposed Indian aircraft carrier and sharing of engine technology.
There are positive signs of an early conclusion on transfer of technology for the carrier, the MoD official said.

"The first phase of carrier cooperation has begun during Prime Minister Modi's visit to Washington,” said the official, requesting anonymity to discuss the program. “The information exchange agreement that was concluded will allow now for consulting contracts relating to carrier design. So, carrier cooperation is well on its way. I am hopeful that the project on jet engine technology cooperation will be concluded this summer.”

That would permit GE to both assemble the F414 engine in India while collaborating with Indian research and development institutions to design the upgraded variant with greater thrust for both the US Navy and the Indian Air Force," says Ashley Tellis, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

An official in the Ministry of External Affairs said defense programs meeting the Make in India mandate could take off sooner when based on co-development and information sharing.

In the Make in India track, India is currently considering the acquisition of a twin-engine fighter aircraft which will be in addition to the 36 Rafale fighters proposed to be bought from France.

Defense contractors, including Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the United States and Saab of Sweden, are aggressively pitching to co-produce a twin-engine fighter aircraft in the Make in India category.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rakall » 26 Oct 2016 16:51

ADA has put out a tender for "Work Package for Structural Design & Analysis of Improved GHATAK Configurations" !!!

Seems like there is a silghtly improved version of the concept for UCAV (AURA as it was known before)

https://www.ada.gov.in/currentdocs/EOI-2.pdf

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 08 Nov 2016 00:07

Acquisition of 600 mini UAVs cleared for infantry. Question is which one. HAL, NAL, DRDO, Tata, Kadet Systems, Dynamtic all have solutions. this will be an interesting space to watch.

MoD clears defence deals worth over Rs 82,000 crore.

“The DAC has also approved the purchase of 598 mini-UAVs under the ‘Buy Indian’ category. These UAVs will be for the infantry,” said an official. The UAVs will be used for aerial surveillance of areas upto five to seven kilometres ahead of the area of responsibility.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vivek_ahuja » 08 Nov 2016 08:26

@Indranil,

I haven't been on this thread in a long time. Have you, or someone else here, done a status report on the current state of the Rustom UAV program? Is it dead in the water, dead on arrival, or just encountering a painful gestation period?

Last I read was that it was Rustom-II was in taxi trials. And then total silence from the program.

-Vivek

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 08 Nov 2016 10:58

It is struggling. It is terribly overweight. Paanwala says that Tech Mahindra has made some headways into the 200 hp diesel engine though.

ADE needs to pull up its socks (but I am not that hopeful). A lot of private majors and HAL are collaborating with global majors in developing* MALE UAVs.

*You know what developing means.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 12:01

Why isn't any of the big private companies taking up drone development?? Making small drones is not that much of an issue from money POV. OTOH I know a number of small companies/startups willing to work but do not get any funding from VCs or from Govt..


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rishi Verma » 08 Nov 2016 12:28

JayS wrote:Why isn't any of the big private companies taking up drone development?? Making small drones is not that much of an issue from money POV. OTOH I know a number of small companies/startups willing to work but do not get any funding from VCs or from Govt..


Who won't be "willing to work" if funding is provided? If they have a track-record and have a business plan then VCs will arrive uninvited, vultures smell flesh from hundreds of kilometers away.

In India there are few fundamental problems (for example long lead time resolving legal issues) . If say L&T starts developing drones, a few years later the the talented team will leave with the IP and all and start their own outfit. Who will ensure swift justice to L&T? And justice delayed is justice denied.

Long way ahead for India to be a developed nation. At least with Modi we have stopped going in reverse.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 08 Nov 2016 13:47

Rishi Verma wrote:
JayS wrote:Why isn't any of the big private companies taking up drone development?? Making small drones is not that much of an issue from money POV. OTOH I know a number of small companies/startups willing to work but do not get any funding from VCs or from Govt..


Who won't be "willing to work" if funding is provided? If they have a track-record and have a business plan then VCs will arrive uninvited, vultures smell flesh from hundreds of kilometers away.

In India there are few fundamental problems (for example long lead time resolving legal issues) . If say L&T starts developing drones, a few years later the the talented team will leave with the IP and all and start their own outfit. Who will ensure swift justice to L&T? And justice delayed is justice denied.

Long way ahead for India to be a developed nation. At least with Modi we have stopped going in reverse.


I would suggest you talk to some of the people who are working in tech start-ups (real tech not some stupid recycled e-commerce website stuff) and see for yourself, what is the situation in India.

And why R&D over people leaving - Pvt company has all the freedom to do whatever it takes to retain talented people. Give anyone enough money and freedom and one would never leave the company. There is nothing unfair in leaving company, its the part and parcel of Capitalism.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 08 Nov 2016 14:56

I work for a VC Firm that has done DD on 3 Indian Drone Start ups. Rejected 2 and am currently finalizing a termsheet for a third.

- Why did we reject the first 2?-

Tech was basic. Primarily COTS and assembly. (Tech Expertise was limited to Aerodynamic Fiberglass body building, COTS Software / Hardware integration). Minimal Encryption and Durability for Military Ops. Or way too many "influential people" on their advisory boards". Such as Ex bureaucrats. etc.

Nothing going to get into things like quality of founding team, track record, experience, etc etc

Few Points/ Observations.

NO VC will fund a company with a 100% revenue exposure to the Indian Armed Forces. / Government. Way too much corruption in the tendering process etc etc. Everybody loves drones today. The Commercial / Industrial market is way more juicy. and thats whats most people are angling at. Regulation ambiguity has made this avenue a big question mark for now?

JayS is correct to a degree. No Start-up founding team will let a strategic acquire them 100%. Most founders want to build businesses and dont want quick monetization or exits.

Strategics will buy a start-up with the enough legal and monetary clauses to ensure that the Founders have enough "skin in the Game" and the IP will remain in house for a substantial period of time. No Strategic is going to let a "founding team" leave that quickly. Have seen it happen number of times.

Secondly: Getting these "Big Players" such a Tata and Mahindra in invest/take over drone startups has not always proven to be the be the best experiment. 2 Case in point are Tata and Mahindra. Both have very large and substantial Cash Cow business and defence is simply NOT a priority for them. They simply (irrespective of the press releases) have bigger fish to fry and concentrate their resources. One of the drone start-ups even entered a tender with a large conglomerate Name (whitelabling themselves) and the tender failed because the conglomerate refused to bribe.

TATA bought a Drone Tech Start up after the Founders were unable to raise funding for additional prototypes. They have done ZIP with that tech and whatever they have is pretty substandard. L&T also bought a tech team - They are still struggling with their Fixed Wing last I heard.

Which are the companies that are succeeding in private Def Manufacturing? Companies where military production is an extension of core business competency (Kalyani, L&T, Shipyards). and Companies that have deep rooted Political ties (Ambani/pipavav).

Lastly - When it comes to Drones. The Israelis and Germans are willing to sell their previous gen Mini/Micro UAV drone tech to Indian manufacturers(for royalties) at throw away prices. The Cost advantage of Indian grown company is getting eroded. The Israelis and Germans come with their brand stamp that further de-risks the big guys atleast in perception

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rishi Verma » 08 Nov 2016 15:05

Excellent data points and real world stories from rkhanna. I would think drones have wider applications (worldwide) than military or gov. If the start-ups have a killer application and excel in handling it funding is possible. Chinese are making civilian drones by the millions.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 08 Nov 2016 16:15

one other point. regarding SME's entering Def Manuf / Govt Tendering. First these companies put in money of their own (usually bootstrapped) to put build a prototype. IIM/IIT alum have the benefit of their incubation centers. Once they have prototypes built they then need money for testing / Demo to various Mil Commands.

Lets say after spending all this money they apply and WIN a tender. And lets say the tender is for 60 Drones. They have to put an x% of money with the Government as a Bank Guarantee (BG) so that to adhere to delivery timelines. This money they DO NOT HAVE. VC will not fund this money. Let say they even have the money for this BG they then need money for a production line. - VC will fund this (against a guaranteed order /cashflows) but a VC takes about 4-9 months to part with its money. Time the Winner of the tender doesnt have because his first batch of Drones is due to be delivered within 6 months. So its a catch 22. A Start up needs to be well funded to win a tender and deliver. But a VC will not fund a Startup till its won a tender


None the less I have seen some amazing tech and People in the space - Specially in Software, Payload and Back end Data/Image Analytics that will blow your mind. The future of this country is in good hands :)

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Singha » 08 Nov 2016 16:32

we need large reaper+ sized drones for corps and above level applications. this is where a huge gap exists.

I agree the small and medium drone needs can be met with local production or even trailing edge cheap designs from abroad as you mention.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 08 Nov 2016 17:36

With 100% overweight airframe Rustom 2 with piston engines is dead. Only solution is to radical overhaul by use of turboprop engines rather than piston engines.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 09 Nov 2016 02:22

HAL has a dedicated department for UAV development now.

Alpha designs is ready to assemble Elbit's Hermes 900.

Tata is working with a myraid of companies. I think for the big ones it is tying up with Boeing. It already has stakes in the Piaggio's Hammerhead.

Kadet systems wanted to modify HAL's Hansa into a MALE.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 09 Nov 2016 02:54

rkhanna wrote:I work for a VC Firm that has done DD on 3 Indian Drone Start ups. Rejected 2 and am currently finalizing a termsheet for a third.

- Why did we reject the first 2?-

Tech was basic. Primarily COTS and assembly. (Tech Expertise was limited to Aerodynamic Fiberglass body building, COTS Software / Hardware integration). Minimal Encryption and Durability for Military Ops. Or way too many "influential people" on their advisory boards". Such as Ex bureaucrats. etc.

Nothing going to get into things like quality of founding team, track record, experience, etc etc

Few Points/ Observations.

NO VC will fund a company with a 100% revenue exposure to the Indian Armed Forces. / Government. Way too much corruption in the tendering process etc etc. Everybody loves drones today. The Commercial / Industrial market is way more juicy. and thats whats most people are angling at. Regulation ambiguity has made this avenue a big question mark for now?

JayS is correct to a degree. No Start-up founding team will let a strategic acquire them 100%. Most founders want to build businesses and dont want quick monetization or exits.

Strategics will buy a start-up with the enough legal and monetary clauses to ensure that the Founders have enough "skin in the Game" and the IP will remain in house for a substantial period of time. No Strategic is going to let a "founding team" leave that quickly. Have seen it happen number of times.

Secondly: Getting these "Big Players" such a Tata and Mahindra in invest/take over drone startups has not always proven to be the be the best experiment. 2 Case in point are Tata and Mahindra. Both have very large and substantial Cash Cow business and defence is simply NOT a priority for them. They simply (irrespective of the press releases) have bigger fish to fry and concentrate their resources. One of the drone start-ups even entered a tender with a large conglomerate Name (whitelabling themselves) and the tender failed because the conglomerate refused to bribe.

TATA bought a Drone Tech Start up after the Founders were unable to raise funding for additional prototypes. They have done ZIP with that tech and whatever they have is pretty substandard. L&T also bought a tech team - They are still struggling with their Fixed Wing last I heard.

Which are the companies that are succeeding in private Def Manufacturing? Companies where military production is an extension of core business competency (Kalyani, L&T, Shipyards). and Companies that have deep rooted Political ties (Ambani/pipavav).

Lastly - When it comes to Drones. The Israelis and Germans are willing to sell their previous gen Mini/Micro UAV drone tech to Indian manufacturers(for royalties) at throw away prices. The Cost advantage of Indian grown company is getting eroded. The Israelis and Germans come with their brand stamp that further de-risks the big guys atleast in perception


rkhanna wrote:one other point. regarding SME's entering Def Manuf / Govt Tendering. First these companies put in money of their own (usually bootstrapped) to put build a prototype. IIM/IIT alum have the benefit of their incubation centers. Once they have prototypes built they then need money for testing / Demo to various Mil Commands.

Lets say after spending all this money they apply and WIN a tender. And lets say the tender is for 60 Drones. They have to put an x% of money with the Government as a Bank Guarantee (BG) so that to adhere to delivery timelines. This money they DO NOT HAVE. VC will not fund this money. Let say they even have the money for this BG they then need money for a production line. - VC will fund this (against a guaranteed order /cashflows) but a VC takes about 4-9 months to part with its money. Time the Winner of the tender doesnt have because his first batch of Drones is due to be delivered within 6 months. So its a catch 22. A Start up needs to be well funded to win a tender and deliver. But a VC will not fund a Startup till its won a tender


None the less I have seen some amazing tech and People in the space - Specially in Software, Payload and Back end Data/Image Analytics that will blow your mind. The future of this country is in good hands :)


Great post. Always a pleasure to hear from people actually working on the ground.

Those ex-bureaucrats or Ex-service person, or "White Elephant" as we used to call them are essential if one wants get any govt contract. And as you pointed out due to ambiguity in regulations, commercial market is a non-starter.

MIl compatibility is an issue with most start-ups. But they do not have money (typically on a few lakh with bootstrapping) to fund development for mil-grade stuff as the HW is quite costly, and sometimes difficult to source. This is again a catch 22 situation. The way I see it is, such start ups could only take off if someone with deep pockets and some passion for tech, who is ready to invest in the Idea and would support for initial few years without much of an emphasize for revenue plan. Of coarse for big companies its not a big deal to invest few crores but they lack the temperament. Even for acquiring, they would more often than not look for a company which has already figured out the tech. That's why govt funding through reaserch grants are so much crucial for tech start-ups.

And the situation you explained in second post in bang on target. The company needs enough financial cushion to absorb all these shocks.

About the bolded part - have you came across any company from Pune, by any chance??


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