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UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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rkhanna
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 09 Nov 2016 11:25

"About the bolded part - have you came across any company from Pune, by any chance?"

Yes!


" That's why govt funding through reaserch grants are so much crucial for tech start-ups."

There is a special interest lobby group that is working with MOD and DRDO and saying set up incubation Centers in PPP mode. IP shared between Founder and DRDO with the Founder having the ability to export even if MOD dont give order (with ofcourse a restriction list).

i.e Set up R&D pipelines and compensate Founders with market valuations for their Equity. After a set amount of time the Govt must choose to roll the tech/companies into private hands.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 09 Nov 2016 15:55

rkhanna wrote:"About the bolded part - have you came across any company from Pune, by any chance?"

Yes!


A friend's company which fits the description. :mrgreen:

rkhanna wrote:" That's why govt funding through reaserch grants are so much crucial for tech start-ups."

There is a special interest lobby group that is working with MOD and DRDO and saying set up incubation Centers in PPP mode. IP shared between Founder and DRDO with the Founder having the ability to export even if MOD dont give order (with ofcourse a restriction list).

i.e Set up R&D pipelines and compensate Founders with market valuations for their Equity. After a set amount of time the Govt must choose to roll the tech/companies into private hands.


A new fund of 1000Cr is set up by GOI. Dunno how much its useful for UAV developers.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Karthik S » 12 Nov 2016 21:55

http://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-set- ... rom-the-us

India Set To Acquire 100 Armed Avenger Drones From The US

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JTull » 14 Nov 2016 03:55

Apparently, Rustom-2 flight coming soon. Anantha Krishnan had tweet on the subject

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rammpal » 14 Nov 2016 08:35

http://www.aerospacemanufacturinganddes ... nes-power/

"" The small turbines, which rotate at speeds up to 227,500rpm, can run on heavy fuels or natural gas..."

Likely based on COTS turbo.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 15 Nov 2016 00:44

Rammpal wrote:"" The small turbines, which rotate at speeds up to 227,500rpm, can run on heavy fuels or natural gas..."

Likely based on COTS turbo.

Those two lines cannot be simultaneously true.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rammpal » 15 Nov 2016 05:36

Indranil wrote:
Rammpal wrote:"" The small turbines, which rotate at speeds up to 227,500rpm, can run on heavy fuels or natural gas..."

Likely based on COTS turbo.

Those two lines cannot be simultaneously true.


Run on NG, easy.
Heavy fuel - yes, suspect,
Doable with clever re-design of combustion System.

Speed is a non-issue, as even higher speed electric machines are already available - COTS, one example i.e.:

http://www.celeroton.com/en/products/motors.html .

Also, turbo and generator can be pneumatically coupled too, with a slight loss of overall efficiency.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 15 Nov 2016 15:53

Karthik S wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-set-to-acquire-100-armed-avenger-drones-from-the-us

India Set To Acquire 100 Armed Avenger Drones From The US


A not so flattering article on the avenger here

However the article is over a year old and the issues (?) were said to be encountered even earlier... perhaps a lot has changed for the better since then.

Some points in the article quoted :

In April 2009 General Atomics—the California-based manufacturer of the Predator drone—debuted a new and improved, jet-powered version of the iconic robot warplane. But for all its improvements, the Predator C—or Avenger—fell flat with its biggest prospective client, the U.S. Air Force. The flying branch’s Air Combat Command recounted the chilly rejection in its official history for 2011, a copy of which War Is Boring obtained via the Freedom of Information Act.


The satellite-controlled Avenger is faster, stealthier and carries more weaponry than the earlier, propeller-driven MQ-9 Predator B model, also known by its nickname Reaper. The Reaper is currently the U.S. Air Force’s main armed drone, but in its standard version it suffers the same inadequacies that plague the original, 1990s-vintage MQ-1 Predator A. It can’t fly in bad weather and its satellite-relayed control signal tends to lag, which can cause crashes when operators sitting in trailers in the U.S. can’t respond fast enough to problems. It’s also possible to hack the Reaper’s video stream … and jam its GPS.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 15 Nov 2016 16:31

I'm willing to take a wild guess that the current fleet is operated by the CIA or by the USAF in support of CIA missions. There was only one type of armed, stealthy/semi-stealthy strike drone requirement within the USAF and that required the ability to fly into highly contested environments and still perform with a reasonably high confidence despite efforts to disrupt the aircraft's flight performance, data-links, SATCOM etc etc.

There is no way you can get that out of this price point or this family of systems. What the USAF got out of those efforts was essentially an optionally manned B-21 further down the road and the RQ-180 which isn't expected to do strike. The former will of course be primarily a manned bomber with the latter most likely being ISR focused but its safe to assume at a price point that is a multiple of what the Avenger family costs.

David Axe has a long history of reading reports that are by their very nature are dated and transient and assuming that the facts stated within them are universally applicable forever. He had been regurgitating historic DOT&E reports on the F-18E/F and F-35 long after subsequent DOT&E reports claimed those same issues from he earlier reports were either under control or completely solved.

GA developed the Predator-C based on their own requirements and perhaps those of the CIA...There were no requirements that we know of from the USAF to improve X Y Z compared to the Predator. Needless to say if those require improvement GA will no doubt be given funding to do so. Similarly, if an outside customer wants those things improved then GA will do so and charge them for it. Much the same way the Predator's have evolved.

At the moment the USAF does not require a drone in the Predator-C class so any improvement you see GA perform on the aircraft are their own internal investments and therefore you would not see these changes or their affect on the overall capability be reflected in any official USAF report. Having said that, I'm highly skeptical of the 100 UAV deal being primarily for the C-variant.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 15 Nov 2016 16:47

I tend to agree with your points

However w.r.t Indian requirements, unlike the USA, we do not have the luxury to assume that the airspace will be uncontested (on both flanks)

Not unless we have dominant stealth (or regular) air and/or land power knocking out the enemy air and ground defences first, the resultant total air superiority then allowing for freedom of uncontested UAV operations

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 15 Nov 2016 16:55

However w.r.t Indian requirements, unlike the USA, we do not have the luxury to assume that the airspace will be uncontested (on both flanks)


There are limits to where the Avenger can go. Its more survivable compared to the other variants in its family but it is by no means a stealthy penetrating attack drone capable of doing those sort of missions. That would be something the J-UCAS was developing and would not be within the scope of this aircraft. I don't think anyone will confuse this aircraft with that. This gets you into areas where the Predator would struggle to go, and would get you there at a higher altitude, faster speed and with a larger, and more diverse payload. That's about it. It naturally retains high commonality with other systems within the family to keep costs low. If you want a more survivable and more flexible Predator, you can buy an Avenger. If you want something that looks and does what the J-UCAS, or FCAS are/were supposed to do, you don't even consider it.

In fact if the USAF ever seriously considers the Avenger, it won't be for its survivability or the ability to perform better in contested environments. It would be for its ability to house the MS-177 and similar payload, and future land-attack directed energy payloads, particularly the HELLADS program the DOD has been working closely with GA. They have had the Predator-C proposed to house a version of this DEW on a few occasions and it remains an unfunded priority.

Predator C Avenger Flies With MS-177 Long-Range Sensor

http://www.uasvision.com/wp-content/upl ... ED-C-2.jpg

Image

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 15 Nov 2016 17:09

If you want a more survivable and more flexible Predator, you can buy an Avenger.


IMVHO that is a very (if not the most) critical point.

How much more survivability and flexibility does the Avenger give over the Predator/Reapor... considering our dear neighbours (both to the west and the east) capabilites AND at what costs

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 15 Nov 2016 17:27

How much more survivability and flexibility does the Avenger give over the Predator/Reapor... considering our dear neighbours (both to the west and the east) capabilites AND at what costs


That would really depend upon what you ask for in it, and of course since it is a GA product, and the last few upgrades are currently company funded there is really no official USAF assessment to go by to figure this out. The IAF would naturally do their system analysis to see which variant fits into their mission needs the best if indeed all this talk of the Predator family is accurate.

Not being a contested airspace penetrating system doesn't mean it can't perform in contested environment, it just means that it will have to do so in conjunction with SEAD/DEAD efforts.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohiths » 15 Nov 2016 18:25

If we get the Avenger it will be a diplomatic breakthrough. It is an amazing platform with excellent stealth characteristics and we can take out terrorists in pakistan at will. Although I don't think USA will sell us any drones any time soon

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 15 Nov 2016 18:42

rohiths wrote:If we get the Avenger it will be a diplomatic breakthrough. It is an amazing platform with excellent stealth characteristics and we can take out terrorists in pakistan at will. Although I don't think USA will sell us any drones any time soon


Perhaps I'm not seeing what you are. I'm just seeing modest RCS reduction work on the Predator family to enhance its survivability. Compared to what is possible now, or what was possible even a decade or two ago, it still falls short in terms of the ability to be hard to target.

Stealthy unmanned design of the mid-late 1990's -

Image

And of the early 2000's -

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohiths » 15 Nov 2016 18:58

^^It may not be the stealthiest US drone but definitely enough for Pakis. My guess is that the RCS would be less than 0.1sq m

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 15 Nov 2016 20:13

What is 'definitely' enough in this context? This isn't a penetrating strike aircraft when pitted against even a half decent integrated air defense system (RCS alone does not get you there). It is however an asset and higher capability when you factor in other IAD suppressing missions that the IAF could bring to bear. Again, if you want to go deep inside PAK territory you would have to defeat whatever surface launched threats they have and plus also deal with aerial threats. This UAV can't deal with all of that. If you want a loiter system that can hang around while you fight the contested air defenses then this will help since it has lower RCS, flies higher and faster than the rest of the Predator family and pretty much any other off the shelf option available at the moment.


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby sum » 16 Nov 2016 05:56

^^ Matches what Chai wallahs had mentioned a year back about Rustom-2 being on the chopping block and real desperation being shown by ADE to avoid the fate.

However, it was mentioned that it had been given last chance and some time till mid of this year to demonstrate something or else face the can. Looks like ADE managed to extend it till year end but need to see if they can pull it off ( chaiwallahs were very pessimistic on this though due to severe techincal difficulties and the terrible reputation earned by the ADE designed Nishant in IA service :( :( )

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby nachiket » 16 Nov 2016 06:21

I wonder if DRDO would have been better off trying to build something around the same size and weight as the original MQ-1 Predator or the old Heron (not Eitan). The Rustom II's empty weight seems to be 800kg more than the MTOW of the Predator if wiki is right, naturally requiring at least twice the power. Maybe they should have first concentrated on developing the Rustom I into something more than a TD. Or perhaps a new design using a single Lycoming engine (same one as on the Rustom I) but better able to accommodate mission avionics etc.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Sid » 16 Nov 2016 06:31

Those engine boxes on Rustom-2 are painful to see.

Just like Rustom 1, was there any commercial airframe they could have leveraged to fast track the program?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Bart S » 16 Nov 2016 06:50

Manish_P wrote:
If you want a more survivable and more flexible Predator, you can buy an Avenger.


IMVHO that is a very (if not the most) critical point.

How much more survivability and flexibility does the Avenger give over the Predator/Reapor... considering our dear neighbours (both to the west and the east) capabilites AND at what costs


We probably need a hi-lo mix, and likely medium and ultra-low options as well. Not all of this is for wartime or going into contested airspace. We have a massive meed for drones with good endurance and advanced sensors such as FLIR to just monitor major swathes of land along the western border, South Kashmir mountains, Maoist infested territories and some areas in the Northeast. And we need all this in peacetime, ideally without having to pay a premium on every one of those drones for self defence features that we will rarely use.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 16 Nov 2016 08:56

And seas

If I am not mistaken the initial request for the drones were for use by the Indian Navy.

For covering the vast maritime borders and the island chains

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Venu » 16 Nov 2016 10:09

Anantha Krishna(tarmak007 fame) says that Rustom2 made its successful first flight. God Speed!

A photo or video would be icing on the cake.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Pratyush » 16 Nov 2016 10:28

With impending predator purchase, the rustom becomes just another science project.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Nov 2016 10:39

Pratyush wrote:With impending predator purchase, the rustom becomes just another science project.


Not really, we will need numbers in the future, from providing imagery for LOC artillery duels to suicide missions on decapitation attacks to battlefield reconnaissance. We will need more and varied numbers of Drones , a few dozen predators is a stop gap arrangement.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohiths » 16 Nov 2016 10:52

Pratyush wrote:With impending predator purchase, the rustom becomes just another science project.

I don't think US will sell the Reaper or Avenger version to us. Best case we can get the MQ-1 Predator version. None of the European countries have offered drones to us. Russia does not have anything worth buying. We have already purchased from Israel. Looks like drones are import proof for the next 5 years

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JTull » 16 Nov 2016 14:06

DRDO's combat drone Rustom-2 flies for the first time

BENGALURU: After a considerable delay, Rustom-2, India's long endurance Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) finally completed its first flight early on Tuesday in Challakere, about 200km from Bengaluru.

The UCAV, which is in the medium-altitude, long endurance (MALE) category of vehicles, sources in the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) which developed the vehicle, said "met all the expectations" during the first flight.

First scheduled in late 2013, the three-year delay of the first flight had only added to the timeline, which is punctuated by other delays during development- even as the Indian armed forces are increasingly looking outside the country for combat drones with deals already struck with Israeli firms.

Rustom-2, the developers, however, claim will be an aircraft unlike any other UAV in the ranks of our forces. It has a wingspan of more than 20m and an endurance of 24-30 hours.

Equipped with contemporary technology, it will need a runway to takeoff and land unlike traditional UAVs, which makes it more trustworthy. Compared to Rustom-I, the advanced version will have enhanced aerodynamic configuration, digital flight control and navigation system.

"Besides, it will also have automatic takeoff and landing capabilities, this version of Rustom is comparable to some of the best in the world," sources in ADE said.

While the ADE hopes to bag orders from all the three wings of the armed forces— army, navy and the air force— its ability to stick to deadlines and also give a good quality platform will be key. The Indian army, which had inducted DRDO's earlier UAV Nishanth, had to face several crashes and is contemplating junking it with no fresh induction planned.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Pratyush » 16 Nov 2016 14:17

How can you say that it will not be repeat of Arjun and T 90 situation. When the rustom has not even passed flight test.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohiths » 16 Nov 2016 15:35

Pratyush wrote:How can you say that it will not be repeat of Arjun and T 90 situation. When the rustom has not even passed flight test.

It may well happen but atleast we have the capability of building a good drone. I wish we had not signed the MTCR.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby prashanth » 16 Nov 2016 16:25

Combat Drone Rustom-2 Completes Maiden Flight

This link has a picture of Rustom 2 on a runway. Not sure whether it is genuine. LD pod shown in models is missing.
Last edited by prashanth on 16 Nov 2016 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2016 16:35

Such projects should have been given to private companies ideally those small start-ups with some really motivated kids. GOI could have given few crores each to 2-3 teams and ask them to fly prototypes.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2016 16:38

Sid wrote:Those engine boxes on Rustom-2 are painful to see.

Just like Rustom 1, was there any commercial airframe they could have leveraged to fast track the program?


Couldn't agree more. Those rectangular engine boxes are such an eyesore. Even by intuition some non-engineer would have made a better fairing. It looks terrible. :((

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2016 17:27

rustom2 power is only 200hp vs some 700hp on CH5 and 900hp on the Reaper.
payload is also very poor vs the other two.
and its not a whole lot smaller than other two

the reaper is pretty amazing...a proper armed turboprop fighter

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 16 Nov 2016 17:44

^^^

Do we have any engine in the 1000 hp range in development?

HAL's HTT-40 uses Honeywell Garrett TPE331-12B turboprop rated at 1,100 hp

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2016 18:23

very similar engine to the reaper then.

we have no piston, turboprop or turboshaft engine in development at all.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 16 Nov 2016 18:31


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 16 Nov 2016 18:33

Singha wrote:very similar engine to the reaper then.

we have no piston, turboprop or turboshaft engine in development at all.


HAL has HTSE 1200 hp engine program for helicopters.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby jamwal » 16 Nov 2016 18:45

From picture, it looks like a twin engined drone.
Didn't knew.
Video from DRDO Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=609159935930409

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2016 20:01

Singha wrote:
we have no piston, turboprop or turboshaft engine in development at all.


HAL developing HTFE-25. Same core will be used for HTSE-1200. Another version for UAV is also in plans. There was tender few months ago which was looking for partners for manufacturing.


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