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UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 26 May 2017 16:03

Cross post from the LCA thread - re the interception of a Pak UAV by an IAF Mi 17

Tsarkar sir - Yes. That was my understanding. UAVs are quite fragile as compared to regular aircraft. Even if you don't bring them down, you can make a big mess of their sensors with a few bullets

Here is an old article about some dept. (private firm?) in Khan trying out various things on smaller UAVs/Drones

Marine Sniper In Helicopter Kills A Drone! Black Dart Results

tsarkar wrote:^^ My understanding is Mi-17s do carry a window MMG that can adequately down Falco/CH-1 type UAV deployed by Pakistan. However, if logistics taskings are high, then the MMG might be removed to save space/weight/crew. Boom mounted 23mm gun pods and 57 mm rockets too are not installed as standard for the same reason.


Manish_P wrote:A high caliber AMR could inflict serious damage on a UAV and even bring it down, especially the types the Pakis have

IMHO however a better bet would be a machine gun in the door.. better chance of hitting a moving target whilst being on a shaky moving platform yourself, especially when you dont have a marksman on board


srai wrote:^^^

The IAF didn't have Gaurd back then otherwise one or two Gaurd could have been carried as a sniper.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ashishvikas » 26 May 2017 20:13

#Over2Challakere Here's the 2nd prototype of #Rustom2 ready for 1st flight in a month from #ATR. Reduced weight & new engine. #Tarmak007

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/868114194989580288

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kit » 26 May 2017 20:28

Won't a electronic counter measures system to jam the uav signals produce a no UAV fly zone more effectively and cheaply ?? ..

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2017 20:44

ashishvikas wrote:#Over2Challakere Here's the 2nd prototype of #Rustom2 ready for 1st flight in a month from #ATR. Reduced weight & new engine. #Tarmak007

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/868114194989580288

Thank god for the new engine fairings. The ones on the first prototype are hideous. I really like the guy who is now leading the project. He sounded like a man with a vision.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby tushar_m » 26 May 2017 21:36


Indranil
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2017 22:23

ashishvikas wrote:#Over2Challakere Here's the 2nd prototype of #Rustom2 ready for 1st flight in a month from #ATR. Reduced weight & new engine. #Tarmak007

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/868114194989580288


Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 27 May 2017 01:59

kit wrote:Won't a electronic counter measures system to jam the uav signals produce a no UAV fly zone more effectively and cheaply ?? ..


Currently they are struggling with regulation of small drones since there wouldn't be any monitoring, would it makes sense to have these drones covered under the cell phone network with same frequencies and connected to the cell towers for location information? detours outside the coverage area will force land them.

restricted zones with cell phone coverage can lay virtual zones and also can have jamming add on. They then can grow the coverage area on an on demand basis such as wildlife areas where there is tourist interest but can't expect network coverage.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Sid » 27 May 2017 20:37

Indranil wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:#Over2Challakere Here's the 2nd prototype of #Rustom2 ready for 1st flight in a month from #ATR. Reduced weight & new engine. #Tarmak007

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/868114194989580288


Image


Wow, this got new engine fairing and optimized fuselage. Good job.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kurup » 28 May 2017 11:49

Image

Look at the gap between antenna cover and body ...... poor manufacturing it seems .

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Venu » 28 May 2017 13:07

kurup wrote:Look at the gap between antenna cover and body ...... poor manufacturing it seems .

Unless you are being sarcastic, this Tapas article has not been fully assembled. If its eye sore for our mango eyes, it will be for the developers as well.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 09 Jun 2017 11:03

Chaiwalla news:

The Ideaforge/DRDO Netra has been the biggest flop out there. Now earning an extremely bad reputation. Few incidents highlighted to me

1) A CRPF Commander is probably in the dock now because they have "lost" than 10 drones. And wont touch them with a barge pole. They are extremely Flimsy and extremely unreliable.
2) the IF team could not guarantee in a demo to Kolkata police that the drone could take off from a rooftop and land back on it. (GSQR now require the drones to take off and land in a 3x3m Square that they paint on the ground)
3) Assembly and deployment during Pathankot took so long that NSG deployed without the UAV and it came into the picture MUCH later. Was overall seen as a failure.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby manjgu » 09 Jun 2017 11:06

should buy a 1000 usd DJI drone !!! ..lands on a small table ..30 cm by 30 cm

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 09 Jun 2017 14:39

Ironically a DJI drone was also trialed by the CRPF . lol DHI is a hobby system. Does not perform well in windsheer, Does not yet have the capability to do pre-progammed routes via waypoints.

IA also wants Sattelite linked Drones to provide Beyond LOS capability. (specially in mountainous regions)

Added later:
But Ironically 10SF loves the DGI drone. According to them they dont need anything fancy with long range. They need something extremely light with a day/night live payload and quiet. Range 3-5Km is enough for their requirement in desert.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jun 2017 16:19

^^^Goes to show why simple, OTS solutions don't work for the military. And why equipment needs to be manufactured to certain standards and is trialed extensively covering different ops scenarios.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby shiv » 09 Jun 2017 17:03

I keep on repeating that the skill of the photographer is critical. In India we have too many bums with cameras who do not think. Let alone Chini/Russi even Pakis have played the game well for years. They will pick on 3 nubile girls in a crowd of Abduls to show their liberalism

The Tarmak picture in black and white above is magical - it is the same aircraft as the idiotic image above where the wings are cut off and the stupid orange covers can be seen better than anything else .And the image is tilted to boot, the idiot can't even hold the camera straight. The moron has access to places where we will never go and he goes an poops there. Thoo. People without an eye for aesthetics should be banned from using cameras. A prototype may never be pretty especially when 3 stainless steel bins pass for wheels - but a modicum of photo composition can hide warts.

Basic photography lessons will teach you not to cut off body parts and to hold the camera so the image is not tilted like a drunkard waking up.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Prasad » 09 Jun 2017 21:42

:(( You are preaching to the choir saar. Even in that tarmak picture, if you move those buggies out of the frame and do some exposure bracketing, you can cut out the blown windows and get a really nice picture. But HAL sends out underexposed, unfocussed pictures along with its press releases :((

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby manjgu » 10 Jun 2017 05:52

rohitvats...i have a little different view on the matter..i think COTS solutions should be explored for cost/benefit/ease of maintenance pov. as rkhanna said if 10SF can find it useful..i dont understand why is not useful for others. imagine each crpf/RR camp having a DJI monitored from a cell phone... how many times will windsheer be a factor? i dont beleive even a mil standard DJI sized drone will be able to stand windsheer... we keep on looking for uber expensive solutions when much cheaper 'horses for courses' solutions are available.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby manjgu » 10 Jun 2017 06:08

i saw the DJI in operation recently ..it was launched by two young boys from poolside situated on the 18th floor of a hotel in KL.. it was evening time and the weather in KL was windy with prospects of rain..yet the drone went about doing its stuff ...the mobile interface/UI was so easy to understand and drone was easy to operate... and it landed on a side table from where it was launched..in the next flight the boys caught it in midair as it just hovered above their heads... i think they took the drone to about 600 ft and the view was absolutely stunning... very sharp video...

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rohitvats » 11 Jun 2017 21:28

manjgu wrote:rohitvats...i have a little different view on the matter..i think COTS solutions should be explored for cost/benefit/ease of maintenance pov. as rkhanna said if 10SF can find it useful..i dont understand why is not useful for others. imagine each crpf/RR camp having a DJI monitored from a cell phone... how many times will windsheer be a factor? i dont beleive even a mil standard DJI sized drone will be able to stand windsheer... we keep on looking for uber expensive solutions when much cheaper 'horses for courses' solutions are available.


Systems being used by 10 Para SF is not an example of success or otherwise of a system. Every soldier in a SF battalion undergoes higher degree of training and has the authority to take initiative. Plus, the reason for which 10 Para SF might find it useful might well be because of their nature of ops and deployment.

These conditions are most likely to not be available in case of line infantry regiment. Irrespective of cost or ease of maintenance, a system needs to demonstrate tolerance to operational environment. Sure, don't let the inability of a system to meet the extremes of ops requirement from induction for other scenarios. Get different system for that. But if a system cannot operate in low temperatures or wind sheer a typical army/RR/CRPF camp will be subjected to in Kashmir or heat of Punjab plains or Rajasthan, then it is of no use.

In the example you quoted, if the said drone did not rise up to 600 feet or land back exactly where it did, it would not have made a difference to the team. Or anyone else. Of course, loss of drone is not being considered here. But same cannot be said about operational environment. Imagine CRPF using the said drone for surveillance of forested area/area beyond hillock around a ROP and summer temp of Chattisgarh playing havoc with the drone's electronics? Or monsoon not permitting ops?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby rkhanna » 12 Jun 2017 11:58

>>Plus, the reason for which 10 Para SF might find it useful might well be because of their nature of ops and deployment.
<<

That is very much so. The DJI system is seen as a direct aid to their Point Man only. In the desert with less LOS limitations and where sound travels its a boon. They dont need to to fly farther or do anything more fancy.

I doubt the same requirements work in the mountains jungles (foliage).

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Jun 2017 23:13

Guardian drones coming boys!

The deal, estimated to be worth USD two to three billion, has been approved by the State Department, the sources said.

1. Price is 2-3 billion, its like each drone is 90Mn, compared to a Tejas in range of 40Mn, and this is unarmed
2. the range of 1bn is also quite big

What extra do they have?
1. Capability to operate from ships (not necessarily carriers)
2. Recon/ELINT capabilities
3. HIgher time on station or Loiter
4. Less risk to crew?
5. Cheaper to operate?

Why won't a NLCA serve better?
1. a combat range of 200Km should be enough to cover most of our threat spectrum now with capability to neutralize;
2. we can get 2 lca for 1 drone: both can be at 2 different places no or cover the same place twice...?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Cybaru » 23 Jun 2017 02:09

Drone/NLCA; Different functions, so cannot generally do a straight cost benefit analysis. LCA time in air is roughly 2 hours for reconnaissance mission, that number is probably like 30/50 hours with the drone. How does one compare the economic benefit one gets from having an asset, on station, on call and possibly on demand.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jun 2017 02:36

Cybaru wrote:Drone/NLCA; Different functions, so cannot generally do a straight cost benefit analysis. LCA time in air is roughly 2 hours for reconnaissance mission, that number is probably like 30/50 hours with the drone. How does one compare the economic benefit one gets from having an asset, on station, on call and possibly on demand.

Thanks CybaruJi, my question is geared more towards understanding why do we need this drone instead of our fighter jet. I highlighted some +es and -ves of having guardian v/s NLCA as per my understanding. I do understand that IN are not fools/greedy, therefore, trying to understand why did they want this.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Cybaru » 23 Jun 2017 02:45

:) No ji please.

It's just not possible to refuel and patrol a station using p8 for 30-50 hours. You will need too atleast one extra crew and will need many-many refuellings. I feel, IN wants round the clock surveillance in some pockets and these would be awesome tools to provide such on demand needs. NLCA is a different kind of craft. The P8I can control some of these assets and I believe the BAMS is specifically designed to work in tandem with the P8s. I feel NLCA and Drone comparison may not be apt. Again we really don't know what kind of drones are being bought or approved.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 23 Jun 2017 04:22

GA would do some work to make it work with the P-Is given the P8 will proliferate as it has already. This will probably be the second most P-8 interoperable maritime unmanned UAS after the US Navy's Tritons. Triton's though highly capable and have high potential for growth aren't exactly cheap given their size and performance. Wouldnt be surprised if GA ends up selling more guardians in the export market than NG with the Triton.

One is a maritime surveillance asset while the LCA is a fighter. Why even compare the two?
Last edited by brar_w on 23 Jun 2017 07:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Prem » 23 Jun 2017 04:29

Will Israeli now lower the price for drones they are trying to sell to us?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby darshhan » 23 Jun 2017 08:30

Prem wrote:Will Israeli now lower the price for drones they are trying to sell to us?

Maybe not because israeli products in all probability will be anyway cheaper than US. But there is a way to cut your cost down. Study these imported drone systems including their sensor suites and replicate them on our own homegrown UAVs.

Until then keep on doing daan dakshina to our foreign benefactors.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby sarang » 23 Jun 2017 09:12

you mean like Chinese.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rishi Verma » 23 Jun 2017 10:45

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/us-appr ... 274194.cms

The deal is between $2B and $3B


So any guesses if its $2.001B or $2.999B?

Doesnt this expose a few truths about the DRDO?

1. They havent mastered take off, flight, landing of a drone

2. They havent mastered long endurance flight operations (flying, remote sensing, photu-analysis, action if hostile signature detected)

3. They havent mastered long endurance drone design (composites, engine, fuel, fuel saving techniques)

(note that these are unarmed drones)

4. Soon they will be 40+ years behind in mastering weaponized drones.

(root causes start with all the wrongs in indian system: education, coaching classes, quota system, pooh pooing innovation, lack of "work hard" ethic etc etc... BUT THATS OT)

What message does this deal send out to our armed forces? That DRDO needs to go the DODO way. And it should.

As a minimum the DRDO managenent should resign upon hearing this newj - but they won't.
Last edited by Rishi Verma on 23 Jun 2017 11:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Jun 2017 11:16

yes they should all resign, so for UAV we will abandon all missile programmes and stand Nanga hope wall street personal come and save us who will replace the DRDO top staff.

Admin I feel the above the post makes no sense and such type of strawman rants should not be entertained.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby asgkhan » 23 Jun 2017 15:28

http://flyzipline.com/product/

Interesting company. They deliver blood across Rwanda using drones. Team has done a Ask Me Anything series in IAMA section of reddit.

Brilliant coding, good design and out of the box thinking.

India needs to ignite and invest in drones. How difficult will it be to undercut the cheap cheeni drones and build a sustainable chain of products and hardware in India ?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby jamwal » 23 Jun 2017 19:16

How reliable is this news about Netra drone ? I saw it for first time maybe 6 years back. They were using off the shelf Logitech gamepads for demo then. If they have not managed to sort out the problems after all these years, then it is more han just disappointing.

It's not like this small drone is doing something very new or unique.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby darshhan » 24 Jun 2017 22:16

X post
Singha wrote:Should be yes
Have done no

Looking at the stellar progress of the rustom2. We missed the boat on money n manpower and are decades behind in drones even to cheen which has ioc massive drones and exporting them all over

We dropped the ball bigtime. Need a igdmp on drones from mid 90s all we did was tinker with nishant nd pat ourselves on importing searcher and heron

Even in quadcopters fr mil use we are nowhere. Our paramils could use it to scout out naxal and jihadi areas but we sitting on thumbs as usual fighting jhadi without using a technology perch...exactly what they want a level playing field

What were top drdo and military strategies doing if not able see the rma in drones 10yrs ahead ? Scientific adviser to pmo and his team?


Among all the major world powers, we are probably the last as far as development and deployment of drones is concerned. The bad news is that we totally missed the bus. The good news is that catching up is not that difficult as lets say aircraft engine technology or stealth technology. Within five years we can catch up with the best. The software part will be more difficult than hardware.

However DRDO is not the optimal agency for developing unmanned technologies. The free and fast flowing world of UAV development will not be served well by DRDO system. The centralised approach that worked for ballistic missile development will not work for UAV development.

A new agency is required which works more on the pattern of DARPA. The purpose should be identify, support and mentor the entities having requisite talent and motivation.

By the way before the current incumbent, does any one remember when DRDO didnt have a ballistic missile scientist as its head?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srinebula » 24 Jun 2017 22:32

It is really sad indeed that even the private sector completely missed out on this.
I was in the toy store today; they had Cheeni flying copters with on-board camera selling for 4K INR.

Your reference to DARPA is very apt. They had been encouraging lot of technologies in a nice way. Our Govt. has announced defence fund recently. I think they can use it to encourage drone enthusiasts. Conduct some DARPA style competetions with good prize money, mentoring, seed funding, etc.,

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby DrRatnadip » 26 Jun 2017 13:23

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/india-k ... 313779.cms

NEW DELHI: India's quest for advanced surveillance drones to keep a hawk-eye on the Indian Ocean Region will now be met through the proposed acquisition of Predator naval drones from the US. But what it really wants is combat drones or unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) in the long run.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srin » 26 Jun 2017 13:42

What's the scenario where an armed drone would be preferred to an manned aircraft ? The primary advantage of drones is endurance and pilot survivability (you can shoot down the drones, but drone pilot is still safe back in airbase).
If the airspace is contested, the drones need to be very stealthy and autonomous. Rules out Predator. Else can be easy shot down by ack-ack.
If the airspace is not contested, why not send manned strike aircraft ?

I get the point of a stealth UAV like Ghatak for a high-risk strike at strategic targets located deep inside enemy territory, and I also get the maritime surveillance using Guardian unarmed drones, but I don't understand when we would use predator (or armed Rustom) drones.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 26 Jun 2017 15:11

If the airspace is not contested, why not send manned strike aircraft ?


The advantage of drones is to maintain constant orbits over an area of interest and if you arm them, they can execute target of opportunity missions where calling out strike may cause an unacceptable level of delay. Now, how much of that is required in the Indian concept of operation envisioned for drones remains to be seen but I believe India does have plans to arm the Rustom at some point (same with Israeli drones if they aren't armed already) which would show a need for this. But that is not in the maritime context which this deal is alleged to cover.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srin » 26 Jun 2017 16:33

^^^
Okay ... but where would we use it ? For instance, would we use an armed Rustom in a scenario like Longewala, where we detect enemy tanks advancing in desert ? Or would we use it in a scenario like Kargil ? Or in some other scenario ?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 26 Jun 2017 19:03

I am not familiar with how they wish to deploy this or how the three Indian services desire to integrate unmanned combat systems into their doctrine. Perhaps others like Deejay or Rohit could speak better to that end.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2017 19:24

Can we have the specs for the Guardian drone please?


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