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UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 28 Aug 2017 23:16

Indranil wrote:The Rustom is finally moving forward with the zeal it should. I like its current project manager a lot. He knows his stuff and demands that user don't give a best of all worlds requirement specification.

Anyways, they are preparing for a modified Rustom II with AUW of 2.7 Tons. The eight prototype will be the first one of this kind. More composites, new outboard pylons, wing tanks, engine nacelles, indigenized SATCOM radome etc.Timeline: 30 months.


It's good news. IIRC Rustom 2 was supposed to be 1000kg empty with 500kg fuel and 350kg payload. The airframe turned out to be 700-800kg heavier, hence more powerful engines were required. 200-180hp instead of 115 hp.

So 2700kg AUW sounder right. There will be some weight gain due to bigger engines & more fuel but perhaps saving also due to more composites.

Though I think that DRDO should go the whole hog & use turboprop engines which will end the issue about playing catch up with weight. As new avatar may weight 3500kg AUW instead of 2700kg.

Can you provide more details? Are 6 prototypes flying? How many test flights have taken place etc etc ? Weapon firing?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 30 Aug 2017 23:08

Okay,

VRDE has selected the diesel engine for the Rustom. It is looking for a piggyback ECU for fuel control. But what is this base engine. Can somebody identify.

Here are the characteristics:
Four stroke, Four cylinder, Common rail, Turbocharged, intercooled diesel engine. 2.2 ltr, 115 kW at 4000 rpm.

Derivative of Mahindra's mHawk engines?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby abhik » 30 Aug 2017 23:36

Tata motors also has an engine with nearly same specs (used in Safari).

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 31 Aug 2017 01:14

You are right. Tata's Varicor 400 engine is a one-to-one match.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2017 15:47

Manufacturing “diesel” piston engines for aviation/aircrafts is tough and 200hhp was always a bridge to far away (within reasonable weight limits). Military wants diesel for high energy density and piston engines for good fuel efficiency but weight, power loss and vibrations is a major problem with 200hp or above diesel engines in aviation industry. Off course now there are some aircraft diesel engines with power output of say 150-300hp but the weight is 200-400kg. Note that Turboprop engine of 250kg can have an output of 1000hp but at higher cost and lower fuel efficiency. Major propeller driven aircraft and even UAVs like Predator/Reaper and Eitan have gone in for turboprop engines. I think that we should stop trying to plough a lone furrow. Put in Garrett Turboprop engine of 500-750hp which is already manufactured by HAL in Rustom and accept some decrease in loiter time. Rather than continuing to struggle in power-weight-time loop. Another problem with diesel is that not only it derates but can also flame out at high altitude above 20,000 feet (with diesel becoming viscous and engine having difficulty in re-starting) As our primary area of concern are Himalayan/Mountains hence HAL-Garret turboprop makes way more sense as it would have adequate reserve power to reach higher altitude (say even 70,000 feet) compared to 25-35,000 feet of piston engines. If we intend to stick with piston diesel engines then 300-400hp makes more sense, to break through power/weight curve plaguing Rustom.

More reading

http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/diese ... ion#page-7
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-de ... -aviation/
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... rst-flight

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2017 15:49

Indranil wrote:Okay,

VRDE has selected the diesel engine for the Rustom. It is looking for a piggyback ECU for fuel control. But what is this base engine. Can somebody identify.

Here are the characteristics:
Four stroke, Four cylinder, Common rail, Turbocharged, intercooled diesel engine. 2.2 ltr, 115 kW at 4000 rpm.

Derivative of Mahindra's mHawk engines?


There was web talk of Lycoming 200hp diesel engine whose Technology was to be absorbed by Mahindra (but it might be rumor or fantasy of an internet teenager)

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2017 16:08

http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saurav-jha/desi-uav-efforts-taking-flight-for-india-10879-748301.html


.............

While the target weight for the Rustom is roughly around 1800 kilograms (kgs) (AUW??), the current prototypes are about 400 kgs over that benchmark (or 700kg?). Moreover it is unlikely that the final variant will be less than 2100 Kgs (empty?? or AUW??). With that figure in mind and typical margins for capability growth, DRDO has decided to fit the Rustom-2 with new diesel engines.
As such the two existing 125 HP Rotax 914 engines (one on each wing) are slated to be replaced by new 200 HP class diesel engines supplied by Lycoming. Interestingly, the new engine configuration is slated to be indigenized with a domestically developed equivalent as a result of a collaborative effort between DRDO's Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (VRDE) and Tech Mahindra.


My guess is that target was

Empty weight 1000kg
Fuel 500kg
Payload 350kg

What we have is;-

Empty New target Weight of 1700kg while in reality it might be 2100kg at present
Fuel 500kg
Payload 500kg with new actual target being 350kg
Requirement for combat load of say (200kg??) dropped??

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srin » 31 Aug 2017 18:36

Looks like 180 HP diesel engine ...
Project: Development of 4-Strok Horizontally Opposed 4 Cylinder Engine for UAV
Reason for closure: Change in User Requirement from 130 HP Gasoline Engine to 180 HP Diesel Engine

Source: From here ... thanks to Ramana. Page 60.

ramana wrote:Folks please download and read this report. It clears up lot of anxieties about OFB, DRDO and DGQA.....

ramana wrote:2016-2017 Parliament committee report on OFB functioning Issued March 2017...

Many infrastructure projects to be completed in 2017. Lots of monitoring by even Parliament.
Maj. Gen Khanduri is going gang busters.



LINK

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 31 Aug 2017 18:44

It is well known from tenders that ADE is going for 180hp engine with preferred output of 200hp. I am trying to say that even 180hp will be less and in any case 180hp diesel engine is not the preferred configuration anymore for a UAV the size of Rustom-2. Therefore we/India should go for HAL Garrett engine which we are already manufacturing. Rather than struggling with new inadequate technology which seems like a fad.

My guess is that:-

Empty Weight is around 2100kg (rather than 1000kg)
Payload will be around 500kg (rather than 350kg)
Combat load should be around 200-500kg rather then being Nil
Fuel requirement would go upto 1000kg ( I am assuming that UAV is big enought to house anything upto 1500kg in wings & fuselage tanks)

Therefore total AUW which was estimated at around 1800kg would be ~3000-5000kg. The only way to meet this situation is way more powerful engine turboprop which is indigenously available and will also be lighter than piston engines.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 15 Sep 2017 19:30

ADE is building a large UAV, euphemistically called UAVTD. It is outsourcing a variety of the works to be completed in 33 months. They will build four prototypes. The UAV will have stealth features and will also carry payloads externally.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Zynda » 15 Sep 2017 19:47

TD meaning Tech Demonstrator? Anyways, all good news to hear that diff labs are playing around with stuff.

If it is not sensitive...which part of the work is being outsourced? Design, analysis or manufacturing?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 15 Sep 2017 22:10

No, it is not sensitive. Otherwise, I would not post here :D

1. Activity-1: Aerodynamic design, CFD analysis, air intake design and analysis, air load estimation, wind tunnel data analysis of UAVTD configuration

Job Description:
a. Generation of required CAD model for aerodynamic design and analysis
b. CFD analysis of UAVTD configuration with and without air intake
c. Air intake design and CFD analysis
d. Air load data generation
e. Wind tunnel test support and data analysis
f. Aero-data generation using results from WT tests, CFD analysis and empirical methods
g. Miscellaneous CFD analysis activities
h. Documentation of design and analysis activities

2. Activity2 - Design Testing and Integration of propulsion system for UAVTD

Job Description:
1. Fuel system design
2. Preparation of QTP and ATP for fuel system component
3. Development of compressed air and fuel igniter setup for Aircraft flight/Taxi trials
4. Integration and testing of propulsion system component in ground/Taxi/Flight.

3. Activity-3:Design and Development of UAVTD Airframes AF 1&2, AF 3&4)

Job Description:
a. Preliminary and Detail design of UAVTD Airframes
b. Development of AF 1 & 2
c. Development of AF 3 & 4 with additional features
d. Finite Element Analysis
e. Aeroelastic Analysis
f. Generation of Manufacturing Drawings
g. Drawing Applicability List
h. Structural Testing
i. Preparation of CEMILAC Documents

4. Activity 4: Supports in Fabrication of Composite test laminates, test features, airframe components etc.

Job Description:
1. Fabrication of out of autoclave (OOA) processed test laminates/sandwich configurations for various material/structural property evaluations for design allowable/knockdowns at different environmental conditions including raw material batch qualification. Materials to be evaluated are carbon/epoxy prepregs, glass/epoxy prepregs and Rohacell foam core sandwiches.
2. Fabrication of different features with co-curing / co-bonding for feature level test data for design validation and fabrication of the wing skins with and without stealthy features along with the leading edges.

5. Activity-5: Characterisation (Physical / mechanical & thermo-mechanical / non-destructive / structural) and test data generation of Composites

Job Description:
1. Non-Destructive testing of the fabricated monolithic panels.
2. Physical characterisation of the monolithic laminates. This includes thickness measurements, volume fraction calculations, density measurement etc.
3. Subjecting the samples to desired environmental condition parameters as per relevant standards.
4. Subjecting both the saturated / unsaturated (ambient condition testing) samples to the following tests: Design allowables of more than 1500 samples (+10%) for CFRP and GFRP materials in RTD, RTW and ETW conditions; with and without notch a. Tensile data b. Compression data c. In-plane shear data (IPS) d. Inter-laminar Shear Strength (ILSS) data e. Flexure test data f. Glass transition data (Tg) Firm has to follow the work instruction sheets issued by concerned officer during execution of job.

6. Activity-6: Landing Gear Systems
The landing gear requirement, design, Development, Testing and integration can be divided into following segments:

1. System Architecture for various sub-systems
2. Actuating systems for various sub-systems with interfaces
3. Control interface ( Hardware & software )
4. Structural interface

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 16 Sep 2017 00:18

Zynda wrote:TD meaning Tech Demonstrator? Anyways, all good news to hear that diff labs are playing around with stuff.

If it is not sensitive...which part of the work is being outsourced? Design, analysis or manufacturing?


Same like we saw tender for Ghatak previously. They want people to be deployed at ADE for all this work. So this is not real outsourcing.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Zynda » 16 Sep 2017 00:27

IR, where did you find those tender/task details? Would it be possible for you post the document link here please? I am not able to find them on DRDO or ADE website. Thx

Jay...yeah. It could be of help to some small service companies. Let me at least spread the word around along with the link.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby suryag » 16 Sep 2017 00:32

Why zynda ji, posting the tender link would directly land on idrw

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 16 Sep 2017 01:03

Zynda wrote:IR, where did you find those tender/task details? Would it be possible for you post the document link here please? I am not able to find them on DRDO or ADE website. Thx

Jay...yeah. It could be of help to some small service companies. Let me at least spread the word around along with the link.


Email me at a b c x y z l c a at geemel. Will give u link.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Zynda » 16 Sep 2017 02:25

Thx...email sent. If you have not received it...pls post in GDF.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 16 Sep 2017 19:33

Can anyone guess what sort of UAV is it? Something like Global Hawk?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kurup » 20 Sep 2017 21:21

Indranil wrote:ADE is building a large UAV, euphemistically called UAVTD. It is outsourcing a variety of the works to be completed in 33 months. They will build four prototypes. The UAV will have stealth features and will also carry payloads externally.


Shouldn't they be concentrating more on finishing Rustom 1 & 2 projects first ??

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 20 Sep 2017 21:40

They are. While they are building Rustom 2, they now have very good idea of what Rustom 3 should be.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Gyan » 22 Sep 2017 21:29

Indranil wrote:ADE is building a large UAV, euphemistically called UAVTD. It is outsourcing a variety of the works to be completed in 33 months. They will build four prototypes. The UAV will have stealth features and will also carry payloads externally.


Can you estimate the size UAV from tender data?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 22 Sep 2017 23:34

I wanted to. There was nothing in that gave it away. But it looks like a diesel engine powered MALE.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Neela » 23 Sep 2017 01:36

Indranil wrote:Okay,

VRDE has selected the diesel engine for the Rustom. It is looking for a piggyback ECU for fuel control. But what is this base engine. Can somebody identify.

Here are the characteristics:
Four stroke, Four cylinder, Common rail, Turbocharged, intercooled diesel engine. 2.2 ltr, 115 kW at 4000 rpm.

Derivative of Mahindra's mHawk engines?


Is this the engine tender from VRDE?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby pandyan » 23 Sep 2017 01:54

Could be tata's engine too..it is 2.2 lt as well with various states of tune. Interesting to see diesel engine for uav.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 07 Oct 2017 23:27

Indranil wrote:ADRDE has come up with a bunch of tenders for an autonomous maneuvering mini airship. Salient features:

1. Internal volume: 590 cu. m.
2. AUW: 200 kgs
3. length: 26.2 m
4. Diameter (max.) = 6.55 m
5. Thrust: 2 X 750 N engines (already chosen)
6. Control: 4 fins with movable control surfaces + TVC engines.
7. Landing gear capable of landing at 40 kmph

Image

Seems like this has materialized into a prototype.

Recently, ADRDE is working on Unmanned Small Airship System. This will be an autonomous guided and controlled platform with manual override capability. The Airship would be made up of PU coated fabric and would be filled up with Helium gas. Other systems such as Flight Controller, On Board Flight Controller, Obstacle Avoidance & Warning System, Propulsion System, Fin Control Surfaces, Gondola, Landing Gear etc. would be mounted on to the Airship.

Unmanned Small Airship System can be used for coastline surveillance, coastal area monitoring and Civil Management, Disaster Management, monitoring of airports / vital installations, Intruder detection etc.

Image


In other news, Nakshatra (bigger sized than Akashdeep) tethered airship has been cancelled in early 2017. However, the following has been taken up. I heard Parrikar and other speak about after the surgical strikes.
Tactical Aerostat

A tactical Aerostat system with V/UHF payload has been designed by ADRDE and one prototype hardware is developed in a very short duration. This design was undertaken in response to Army's requirement of an Aerostat system which will be operating at 12000 ft plus height with the payload. The total Aerostat System including Gas Management and Ground Control, is transportable in hilly terrains of 2 nos. of 2.5T military vehicles. This Tactical Aerostat has undergone trial demonstration to users at Tawang in North-East successfully.

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 07 Oct 2017 23:57

This Record-Breaking Electric Plane Stomps a Gas-Powered Cessna

Image

dated info but its an electric version of Rustom-1 type airframe

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Oct 2017 04:27

Indranil wrote:
In other news, Nakshatra (bigger sized than Akashdeep) tethered airship has been cancelled in early 2017. However, the following has been taken up. I heard Parrikar and other speak about after the surgical strikes.
Tactical Aerostat

A tactical Aerostat system with V/UHF payload has been designed by ADRDE and one prototype hardware is developed in a very short duration. This design was undertaken in response to Army's requirement of an Aerostat system which will be operating at 12000 ft plus height with the payload. The total Aerostat System including Gas Management and Ground Control, is transportable in hilly terrains of 2 nos. of 2.5T military vehicles. This Tactical Aerostat has undergone trial demonstration to users at Tawang in North-East successfully.

Image


I believe there were three classes of aerostats, nakshatra, akash deep and chakshu with chakshu being the smallest one carrying eo payload. This one might be further development of chakshu.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 08 Oct 2017 09:29

Chakshu was from NAL. It was airship-shaped. Went nowhere.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby enaiel » 10 Oct 2017 20:41

A note on Ghatak's status from ADA's 2015-2016 annual report:

Way Forward:
At the moment no GHATAK aircraft program has been sanctioned to ADA and only funds for developing advanced Technologies have been sanctioned. Using these funds some of the critical technologies will be developed within the country through sponsored projects.


Also, a note on the funding:

Financial Aspect:
a. Commitments for 2016-17 : Rs.43.00 Cr.
b. Cash Out Flow for 2016-17 :Rs.30.00 Cr.
c. Planned Commitments for 2017-18 : Rs. 82.00 Cr.


Draw your own conclusions.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby kit » 13 Oct 2017 23:26

http://idrw.org/combat-drones-how-us-israeli-tango-is-risking-indias-security-scenario/#more-150785

:roll:

Hypersonic weapons regime including China Russia and US

Now this ???? :x

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2017 00:48

Israeli UAV producers face tighter export restrictions
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... io-442076/

Limitations on the transfer of advanced technologies embedded in the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) Heron TP unmanned air vehicle are making a competition with the General Atomics Aeronautical Systems MQ-9 Reaper in India more complicated for the Israeli company.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:36

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/920173201392484352 ---> Scale models of the Ghatak UCAV design getting ready for tests at IITK

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:37

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920171250512666624 --> This is the latest publicly released configuration of India's 'Ghatak' Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:38

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920171859248742400 --> More on Ghatak developments. Scale model at IITK.

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:39

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920172262052978690 --> Ghatak WT model being tested at HAL.

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:40

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920172948022898688 --> CFD simulations on latest Ghatak configuration.

Image

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srin » 20 Oct 2017 16:34

So, I've been curious to understand the scenarios where we'd deploy tactical UCAVs like armed Rustoms/Predators and I'd indeed posted on this thread a while ago, but wasn't convinced. So, while researching (aka Google searching), I was also looking for other scenarios and wondered why nobody has an Interceptor UCAV.

This may be more of a solution looking for a problem, but think about these scenarios:
Scramble: When there is intrusion in airspace in peace time, we scramble fighters from forward bases to take a closer look and warn off the intruders or force or shoot them down if they persist.
CAP: During time of hostilities, we need to likely run CAP missions to patrol airspace and respond quickly to enemy fighters coming in.
Dissuade CAS / Surveillance: We need to ensure that we maintain battlefield air superiority so that adversery doesn't dare use choppers or drones against our land army.

To do all this, and to do without putting our air warriors at undue risk, an interceptor UCAV that can take on aerial targets rather a strike UCAV (predator or Ghatak) would be ideal.

Thoughts ??

PS: If this topic is better discussed in "Design your UAV" thread, I'll move it.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2017 19:58

srin, I think an aeronautical entity has to pursue all viable technologies whether they materialize or not. At least gives them a chance to evaluate tenders and RFP responses.

So this UCAV is being pursued for the distant future.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2017 19:59

What I find interesting is pictures are being tweeted instead of papers being presented.
This gives no chance to critique the program.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2017 01:37

US 'considering' India's Request For Armed Drones For Air Force: Official
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-cons ... al-1765536

Earlier this year, the Indian Air Force had requested the US for General Atomics Predator C Avenger aircraft; the IAF would need 80 to 100 units making it approximately a $8 billion deal


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