UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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brar_w
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by brar_w »

^ That exposes the limitations of the kill chains, autonomy, discrimination and targeting. It is far simpler to set up a LM for a SEAD attack where you have someone in the loop and a designated area and target type that you are going after. Add infantry, softer targets, urban, and a myriad of different supply vehicles, commercial vehicles, launchers, assembly points and you are basically using a manned platform (not an unmanned platform) where the "man" is located off-site which turns the fight into basically a race to keep your networks up / deny your opponent the spectrum to use its networks. This is limiting from a kill chain, networking, and other support perspective. The sheer number of targets or potential targets of interest will just overwhelm you unless you have a manned ISR asset in the loop that is able to pass on targeting information in real time. This is a problem even with more sophisticated UCAV concepts like the BAE Taranis, Neuron, or US j-UCAS. The air-vehicles look great, but the real issues in employing them for anything besides a niche mission set has to do with EMCON, secure LPI/LPD high bandwidth networks, autonomy, target discrimination and completing kill chains. When you expand the potential target set (by bringing them closer to say a strike-fighter or a bomber like target set) you have to solve for these challenges and no one has really done so at the moment. They are a great option when you have pin point target coordinates, and just need a truck to launch weapons or when you have a fairly narrow target set (like SEAD) and have other ISR assets to suppor them. Or when you have a limited number of targets (like COIN) and a man always in the loop to make decisions. But when you don't know what and where you targets are, UAV's become a fairly poor option. Same thing with Cruise Missile based stand-off attack - Very little utility if the enemy is relatively mobile, uses loads of decoy tactics, and is capable of degrading your weapon efficacy using a combination of EW, cyber, Air Defenses and mobility. This may change with the next gen. autonomous systems but we are probably at least a generation away from seeing that.
nachiket
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by nachiket »

hnair wrote: All these are very expensive solutions against cheap unguided rockets. It would have been cheaper for them to launch loitering munitions over Gaza and let them take out the launchers accurately. But it couldn’t, probably due to FOV issues when flying among buildings etc. similar issues exist in forests or hills too
Wouldn't the same FOV issues apply to the Litening pods and other targeting equipment aboard Israeli fighter jets as well? I am wondering if the decision not to use drones (at least publicly) is more because of the optics of doing drone strikes in densely populated civilian areas. Yes air strikes will give similar results mostly, but in the minds of people around the world, using drones has a different impact.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by hnair »

nachiket, I was talking about loitering UAV/munitions of a cheap nature that was considered a game changer. The manned fighters have cueing done from multiple sources even before they take off, since their targets are more conventional and immobile (buildings).

brar_w has expanded on the need for a human in the kill chain, probably because the automatic discerning in a cluttered environment is still not fool proof. So you are right on the risk of bad optics. Already the 200 odd collateral damage is proving to be the core of anti-Israel narrative among influential segments even in US
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Prasad »

What is the Cost-benefit here wrt using loitering munitions vs aircraft delivered pg bombs? Given that the Israeli AF doesn't have to contend with air defense?
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by nachiket »

Yes that is another thing to consider. The advantage of drones in not putting a human pilot at risk is useless in the Israeli case since Hamas doesn't even seem to have MANPADS to defend with unlike any self respecting jihadi in other parts of the world. Not that it would matter much since the variety of PGM's available to the Israelis would enable them to strike from outside the range of any MANPADs anyway.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by hemant_sai »

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-gaza-uav

If Iran is progressing on UAvs like this, what are we really doing? OR is it chinese drone showcased as their own?
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by kit »

hemant_sai wrote:https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-gaza-uav

If Iran is progressing on UAvs like this, what are we really doing? OR is it chinese drone showcased as their own?
like their 5th gen fighter ? i would take their UAV news with a bit of salt., the iranians seem to pro in their dummy making

Image

their 5th gen fighter "revealed" about 5 yr back

Billed as the country’s most advanced indigenous fighter jet, Qaher-313 is so small that there literally isn’t enough space under its wings for the bombs and missiles that the country claimed it could carry; it doesn’t even have a weapons bay. The cockpit is so small that it can’t accommodate a normal pilot in the ejection seat. :mrgreen:
Pratyush
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Pratyush »

Why should a brave holy warrier of IRG or the Quds force need an ejection seat.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by darshhan »

hemant_sai wrote:https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... s-gaza-uav

If Iran is progressing on UAvs like this, what are we really doing? OR is it chinese drone showcased as their own?
The question is "Do we even a vision or a roadmap for inducting and deploying indigenous UAVs/UCAVs in which highest levels of military are invested?". Because the indigenous UAV journey will start from there. Technology wise it is less of a challenge especially when compared to something like Jet engine development or mastering of Hypersonic technologies.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by darshhan »

hnair wrote:nachiket, I was talking about loitering UAV/munitions of a cheap nature that was considered a game changer. The manned fighters have cueing done from multiple sources even before they take off, since their targets are more conventional and immobile (buildings).

brar_w has expanded on the need for a human in the kill chain, probably because the automatic discerning in a cluttered environment is still not fool proof. So you are right on the risk of bad optics. Already the 200 odd collateral damage is proving to be the core of anti-Israel narrative among influential segments even in US
IIndividual loitering munitions on their own are no game changer especially when it comes to disrupting the warfare. They do have their uses including functioning as a Poor Man's airforce.

It is the SWARM technology that will be the gamechanger. To my knowledge no military or paramilitary has till date deployed or used a Swarm in a combat zone. Although some countries are in advanced phase of development.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by darshhan »

Prasad wrote:What is the Cost-benefit here wrt using loitering munitions vs aircraft delivered pg bombs? Given that the Israeli AF doesn't have to contend with air defense?
It is not about the cost benefit ratio here. The current crop of israeli loitering munitions are specialized for certain tasks like SEAD and taking out vehicles. Against hamas in Gaza Strip, the targets consisted of underground bunkers, tunnels and multistoreyed buildings among other things in a highly dense urban environment. Now to take out such targets there are certain factors involved when it comes to munition type. For eg. Shape of the warhead, metallurgy, type of explosive used and the explosive power or bang produced by the warhead. Now I am pretty sure even a Small Diameter Bomb(SDB) category munition will have more bang and better penetration quality than the loitering munitions currently in service with IDF. Also there are hardly any SEAD targets/Radar stations in gaza strip where Harop type loitering munition would have made a difference. As far as Hamas vehicles and rocket launching pads are concerned, probably since Israeli Air Force fighters were already spending so much time on station, that they received most of the share of targets. Another point is that quantity of air launched PGMs in israeli service must be vastly more than the number of loitering munitions they have. Plus American refills would be a bonus for them.So why waste such precious assets on a mission which can be performed by a cheaper and more numerous munition.

The point is that existing loitering munitions like Harop are meant for a different kind of war. For eg if Israel was fighting against Syria or Egypt(not very likely), it would play a very important role. Here in Gaza there was simply not much use for them.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by darshhan »

^^ one additional point I would like to add here. The skills shown by Israeli Air Force pilots were amazing especially the controlled demolition of multistoreyed buildings by targeting their foundations. Simply on another level. I doubt if many Airforces could carry out such missions. It is like they were practicing such missions for a long time now. So it is only fitting that were brought to do the honors.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Maria »

jaysimha
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

AICTE ATAL ACADEMY FUNDED ONE WEEK ONLINE SHORT-TERM TRAINING PROGRAM (STTP) ON THE TOPIC:
DRONES: CONTROL, NAVIGATION AND GUIDANCE
DATE: 26-07-2021 TO 30-07-2021 VIA ONLINE MODE
https://iitram.ac.in/frontend/Workshop/ ... 052021.pdf
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ArjunPandit »

A Deshmukh
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by A Deshmukh »

ArjunPandit wrote:SJha showing helina armed rustom 1

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/602028235744882688
this is a 2015 photo.
are rustom 1 equipped with Helina inducted now?
Maria
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Maria »

There was a recent Rustom 1 crash which involved the bird being lost after it went into a wall while taking off or landing. I remember it was being purposed for anti-naxal operations.

Okay it was being trialled for the CRPF: https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 83069.html

I guess it may not enter the Armed Forces but will be a definite hit with the CAPFS. We shouldn't waste home grown technology even if it means very little.
Indranil
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

Two more are going back to ITR. I expect them to be armed versions. SJha also indicating something to the same effect?

I think Panchi is also getting revived. Tender for 3-bladed constant-pitch propeller. Most likely to be integrated with the 65 HP Wankel engine.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Prem Kumar »

Hope the trials are accelerated. UAVs & UCAVs can be force multipliers in the sectors where we face the Chinese. Satellites cannot keep a 24x7 watch and Herons are expensive. We need robust, cheap, local products.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by NRao »

Not sure if this is teh right thread, but, here goes:

Israel's Semi-Autonomous Robot With Machine Guns is Heading to the Gaza Border

Image
jaysimha
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

Our anti-drone technology can stave off threats: DRDO chief
DRDO’s counter-drone technology uses a variety of methods to neutralise the danger from such aerial attacks, officials familiar with it said on condition of anonymity.
By Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times, New Delhi
UPDATED ON JUN 30, 2021 06:59 AM IST

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 37673.html
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by arvin »

jaysimha wrote:Our anti-drone technology can stave off threats: DRDO chief
Some one in MOD must be dragged over coals for not proactively ordering this DRDO product in numbers to be deployed in all sensitive airports and airbases. This was ready more than a year back and was first deployed in Jan 2020.
Looks like Azerbaijan and Armenia conflict was just time pass - moongphali, pop-corn time for people who make decisions for acquiring these assets. No attempt to visualize similar scenarios could happen here given the pissful loving neighbors we have.

From the above link jaysimha posted:
“The RF/Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) jammer can detect the frequency being used by the controller and jam signals from a distance of 3 km. The laser-based hard kill system can neutralise micro drones at distances between 150 m to 1 km. The system is integrated through a command post,” said one of the officials cited above.

DRDO demonstrated its counter-drone technology to different security agencies at the Hindon air force station in January 2020 and at the National Security Guard (NSG) campus in Manesar in August 2020 and January 2021.
Pretty sure MOD will invite World wide Gobar Tender with Bhest in Class Taqnology for anti drone kounter meajures.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by darshhan »

arvin wrote:
jaysimha wrote:Our anti-drone technology can stave off threats: DRDO chief
Some one in MOD must be dragged over coals for not proactively ordering this DRDO product in numbers to be deployed in all sensitive airports and airbases. This was ready more than a year back and was first deployed in Jan 2020.
Looks like Azerbaijan and Armenia conflict was just time pass - moongphali, pop-corn time for people who make decisions for acquiring these assets. No attempt to visualize similar scenarios could happen here given the pissful loving neighbors we have.

From the above link jaysimha posted:
“The RF/Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) jammer can detect the frequency being used by the controller and jam signals from a distance of 3 km. The laser-based hard kill system can neutralise micro drones at distances between 150 m to 1 km. The system is integrated through a command post,” said one of the officials cited above.

DRDO demonstrated its counter-drone technology to different security agencies at the Hindon air force station in January 2020 and at the National Security Guard (NSG) campus in Manesar in August 2020 and January 2021.
Pretty sure MOD will invite World wide Gobar Tender with Bhest in Class Taqnology for anti drone kounter meajures.
Forget tendering. As per vayu aerospace twitter account orders have already gone to israelis. Mockery of atmanirbhar bharat.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by arvin »

Just checked their twitter account. If its true, the system is passive and is only providing classification and jamming. No hard kill.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by arvin »

https://www.news18.com/news/india/iaf-i ... 29411.html
The Indian Air Force (IAF) issued a request for information (RFI) to seek responses from Indian companies for the counter-drone systems called CUAS, a day after the Jammu attack, which revealed operational deficiencies in dealing with small commercially-accessible drones packed with explosives.

“The CUAS is intended to detect, track, identify, designate and neutralize hostile UAS. Laser-Directed Energy Weapons (Laser-DEWs) are essentially required as a kill option,” said the RFI.
A start has been made to cover up the gaps. Ideally should have been done a year back but never too late.
Hope Navy and Army also follow suit.
This would also mark the beginning of laser being employed as air defence & kill weapon. Kudos to DRDO for that.
Hope the technology is transferred to both PSU and private companies so that companies can build on the expertise and the system
follows a evolutionary path.
Next step should be to make it vehicle portable something like Raytheon's high energy laser (HEL) on Polaris vehicle.
Mobility will also be useful in CI operations also where terrorists can be smoked out literally and figuratively.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/hyde ... 8VUCKt4hsw

Hyderabad Based Firm Grene Robotics Develops Made In India Wide-Area Drone Defence Dome ‘Indrajaal’
by Swarajya Staff-Jul 9, 2021 07:11 AM
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Manish_P »

I hope more such companies get founded (especially those with ex-Faujis, in various positions) and they find success - here in India, and abroad too. Extremely crucial spokes for any Mil-Ind complex.

Will stay positive.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

Some how we missed this...

https://www.deccanherald.com/business/t ... 47612.html
It was unusual to see a full-scale Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) showcased by a company known more for its earthmovers and Metro coach assemblies. But at the Aero India 2021, Bharat Earth Movers Limited (Beml) was emphatic in projecting its aerospace...
Image
The Beml-Primoco UAV One 150 on display at air show. Credit: DH photo.

------------------------
More info on this
https://www.bemlindia.in/beml_journals.aspx

https://www.bemlindia.in/writereaddata/ ... ne2021.pdf
Pratyush
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Pratyush »

Saar, please check about the company primoco.

It's not even a JV between BEML and them. It's straight up screwdriver giri.

Post the mine plough for tincan scam. Where they are putting BEML sticker on a UK company product. They are pulling this one.

Link

https://uav-stol.com/primoco-uav-one-150/
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

https://indianairforce.nic.in/capital-procurement

RFI for COUNTER UAS ( 2021_IAF_611676_1)
Monday, June 28, 2021
https://indianairforce.nic.in/sites/def ... %20UAS.pdf
REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF COUNTER UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEM FOR IAF
1. The Ministry of Defence, Government of India, intends to acquire ten Counter Unmanned Aircraft System (CUAS) for IAF through indigenous route under Buy (Indian-IDDM)/ Buy (Indian)/ Buy and Make (Indian) category of Defence Acquisition Procedure 2020 (DAP-2020). Only Indian vendors may respond to this RFI. The category of capital acquisition will be decided upon scrutiny of responses to this RFI.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jamwal »

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/what-we ... nst-drones

What We Know About The Indian Armed Forces' Ability To Deploy And Defend Against Drones
When it comes to defence against drones, India appears prepared. The Defence Research and Development Organisation has indigenously developed a portable anti-drone system that offers a combo of detection and destruction.

It involves jamming an incoming drone’s communication systems , when it is still around 3 kms — then destroying it with a laser beam if it penetrates to 1.5 km.

These portable units were deployed in Delhi at Red Fort on Independence Day 2020 and earlier, in February 2020, along the route during US President Donald Trump’s India visit.

To cover a wider swathe, what are known as drone defence domes can be created. These combine integrated meshed networks, multiple honeycombed cells and artificial intelligence.

Such domes can cover 1,000 sq km or more. A Hyderabad-based company, Grene Robotics has developed what it claims is India’s first-wide area autonomous Drone Defence Dome — “Indrajaal” — which works against UAVS as well as other incoming munitions.
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Post by jaysimha »

https://www.business-standard.com/conte ... 135_1.html
Homegrown DefTech Startup, Big Bang Boom Solutions showcases State-of-the-art, Indigenous Anti Drone System
July 30, 2021 23:30 IST | ANI Press Release
Image
"The IDEX program of the Ministry of Defence has been instrumental towards us getting to where we are. We are now awaiting the most important piece of this exclusive program - Procurement. This will help us plough money into further R & D and create world class systems," says Praveen Dwarakanath, Co-founder of Big Bang Boom Solutions.

The event at Chennai was spearheaded by Lt. Gen Arun, GOC Dakshin Bharath on behalf of the Indian Army and presided over by Hon Governor of Tamilnadu, Shri Banwarilal Purohit and witnessed huge participation of civilians, DefTech startups, industry and various regiments from the south. At the event, all southern India Chakra awardees, and other medal awardees or their next of kin were felicitated.
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Post by jaysimha »

Ministry of Defence Anti-Drone System
Posted On: 28 JUL 2021 5:07PM by PIB Delhi
DRDO has developed anti-drone system to neutralize enemy drone attack. The Indigenous Drone Technology is capable of counter attacks including detection, Soft Kill (for jamming the communication links of Drone) and Hard Kill (Laser based hard kill to destroy the Drone) of enemy Drones. The System is already demonstrated to Armed Services and other internal security agencies.

The indigenous DRDO Counter-Drone Technology is transferred to M/s BEL. Simultaneously Transfer of Technology (ToT) of the Counter-Drone System is offered to other companies.

This information was given by Raksha Rajya Mantri Shri Ajay Bhatt in a written reply to ShrimatiKeshari Devi Patel and Shri KanakmalKatarain Lok Sabha today.

***
ABB/Nampi/KA/DK/RP

(Release ID: 1739951) https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1739951
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by arvin »

^^^
Wow. Things moving at speed of laser on the anti drone front. Hope private sector makes use of this chance. Hope some one comes up with a vehicle mounted solution.
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Post by RajaRudra »

Its time, we should embrace the drones as a mode of transport whole heartedly and encourage private players to invest in the research there. We should start registering and licensing each individual drones(just like two wheelers and four wheelers) and start making guidelines, rules and regulations to stream line the same.

1) This will allow our country setting the rules of the game(other countries may start following that rules)
2) Gives the local players the economics of scale which can be utilized and refined for various other purposes.
3) Even if we are not doing it, other countries will be doing the same(may already be doing, I don't know. Pardon me if so).

In due time, we will have to practice and exercise both the use and denial (of drones) in a large scale.
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Post by Manish_P »

A question... Can the Police forces in sensitive border areas along Jammu, Kashmir, Punjab also be provided with anti-drone weapons (long range anti-material rifles, LMGs)/Tech (Anti-drone systems and teams)?

Often they are the first responders. If locals spot the drones they are more likely to call the police than the military folks.

Suspected drones spotted at 4 locations in Jammu and Kashmir's Samba
Security forces on Monday (August 2) spotted four drones in Jammu and Kashmir's Samba district. The objects were noticed in the intervening nights of Sunday and Monday.

Police sources said the four flying objects were spotted in the Baniyari, Ghagwal, Nad and Ramgadh areas of Samba district. According to reports, the drones were spotted hovering over military establishments in these areas. "Police personnel did not fire at these as they were out of range, but the army was immediately alerted", sources said.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jamwal »

Is Nishant drone still in Indian service?
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Pratyush »

jamwal wrote:Is Nishant drone still in Indian service?
A grand total of 4 were built. All lost.
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Post by jaysimha »

August 15, 2020 - Latest News, Air Power, Ground Force, Technology
BEML teams up with IIT-Kanpur for unmanned aerial vehicles
https://defenceview.in/beml-teams-up-wi ... -vehicles/
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

Project Cheetah set to take off, India to get upgraded & armed drones from Israel
https://theprint.in/defence/project-che ... el/708122/
03 August 2021
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