UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

[abhischekcc]

Forgive my ignorance, but can some one (moderately) enlighten me about rotary wing drones, or drones which can hover?

Much thanks.

[Raj Malhotra]

Rakall-san,

Please please do not provide info to "Raj Malhotra"
he is neither Raj nor Malhotra

Admins, BR has reached a kind of maturity and there are many people with insider information and there need to be an avenue to watch lurkers

I have a log of "Raj Malhotra" entire list of questions, anyone who need to see it, please email me, the dude is asking too many questions,

Lkawamoto, I know who Raj Malhotra is, having met him on BR meets for the past 6-7 years. He is neither a lurker nor a person with inside info or in any way linked to the defence/security industry in his day job.

He paid for the meal on the last BR meet for which his generosity is gracefully acknowledged.

Hi

I think we should let Lk be happy, he might even get a orgasm in night pretending to be James Bond 007 who caught a major spy and BBasu is making amorous advances at him. or such like thing

[Arun_S]

Lkawamoto : You have misunderstood, I and most BR Admins know very well who Raj Malhotra is. Please stop painting him.

[JaiS]

Lockheed and Kaman to develop new optionally piloted version of K-Max external lift helicopter

[Bolasani]

Have there been any experiments at launching and recovering UAVs from an airplane.

I was just thinking that might be a useful addition to an AWACS system to extend its range.

[Sanjay M]

Lockheed's Polecat Suffers Crash

This thing is a super-cheap UAV, that's made from rapid-prototyping machines. Its cost of development was a record low.

[Sanjay M]

UAVs Being Studied for Anti-SAM Role

[Harry]

http://www.orbat.com/site/cimh/special% ... ya_PTA.pdf

[Vick]

http://www.orbat.com/site/cimh/special% ... ya_PTA.pdf

Harry, can the air target imitator and/or the towed target be adapted or modified into a towed decoy for a fighter aircraft? Has the IAF or ADE given any intention of following that path?

[Harry]

I think the payload can be adapted to another aircraft although the use of it as a towed decoy is not known. It should theoretically be possible.

[Rupak]

http://www.orbat.com/site/cimh/special% ... ya_PTA.pdf

Harry, can the air target imitator and/or the towed target be adapted or modified into a towed decoy for a fighter aircraft? Has the IAF or ADE given any intention of following that path?

The target imitator was originally developed for training Army air defence units, primarily AAA L60/L70s.

The Lakshyas also tow banners for in the TTU role where the results air-air of live firing exercises are recorded using shells with dyes.

[Vick]

The target imitator was originally developed for training Army air defence units, primarily AAA L60/L70s.

The Lakshyas also tow banners for in the TTU role where the results air-air of live firing exercises are recorded using shells with dyes.

So, the imitator and the towed target act more as visual cues rather than radar or IR cues?

[Rupak]

Vick
Originally yes. The target imitator acts as an IR cue not a radar cue. This is a later devlopment. But the bulk of IR SAMs with the Army/AF also require a visual cue.

The towed unit can provide all types of cues.

[Vick]

The towed unit can provide all types of cues.

So there is hope yet of a towed decoy although it is a bit bulky in its present avatar. It's all a matter of if the IAF wants it or not.

[Arun_S]

Harry, can the air target imitator and/or the towed target be adapted or modified into a towed decoy for a fighter aircraft? Has the IAF or ADE given any intention of following that path?

The target imitator was originally developed for training Army air defence units, primarily AAA L60/L70s.

The Lakshyas also tow banners for in the TTU role where the results air-air of live firing exercises are recorded using shells with dyes.

I believe now they use a acoustic Doppler Miss Distance Sensor (measures the shock wave and acoustic signature). DRDO showed it at AI-07. See this image:

P1010656 Doppler Miss Distance Indicator

[Raj Malhotra]

[Lakshya has lot of potential to be developed as :-

Recce UAV
Basic UCAV
Ground launched cruise missile and later air,ship,sub launched cruise missile

Anti Radiation missile
Decoy device, ground launched with jammers
Its components can be used for towed decoys/jammers


But I wonder whether there is any interest from forces or even if DRDO has funds to work out the same

[Arun_S]

Western NGO psy-op engine has been parroting the Lakshya graduating into a cruise missile. The 700Kg Lakshy's range is 500Km.

Of late much quite effort seems to be put on Lakshya. Eg. Digital Auto-Pilot, New IMU/INS (Inertial Measurement Unit), New Engine.

I have a nagging suspicion that the now famously quoted future Indian naval cruise missile stands on this base, but will be a much lighter & superior airframe

[Sanjay M]

http://www.physorg.com/news94812789.html

[Sanjay M]

The Wasp does rescue, and not mere recon:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/play.html?pg=2

[Ved]

......I am usually very wary of technological advances which their creators plug as revolutionary. I have never seen an example of any technology having anything more than an incremental effect on the battlefield..

Not really, if one sees the tremendous impact on the battlefield of various RsMA ..... the bow & arrow, horse cavalry, the rifle, the tank, air power, PGMs, satellites and their integration into a networkcentric environment, etc.... I think they all made a huge, measurable difference on the battlefield.

[rakall]

The target imitator was originally developed for training Army air defence units, primarily AAA L60/L70s.

The Lakshyas also tow banners for in the TTU role where the results air-air of live firing exercises are recorded using shells with dyes.

So, the imitator and the towed target act more as visual cues rather than radar or IR cues?

The towed target can and does carry radar and IR cues.. it carries Ljunberg lenses in the towed target for radar cues & IR flares for IR cues.

[shetty]

NAL To Organize Micro Air Vehicles Urban-Environment Demonstration For United States

[Sanjay M]

Russia blocks Global Hawks for SKorea, by claiming they violate MTCR:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurp ... 70513.aspx

Hmm, that's interesting. We always think of MTCR exclusively in terms of missiles, but UAVs can act as a sort of cruise missile, I suppose.

But I don't see why Russia would be more concerned over growing S.Korean power as compared to Japan, which would have the most to be concerned about.

I assume it's because Russia doesn't want to see N.Korea at too much of a disadvantage, since N.Korea serves a useful purpose of containing Japan, a Russian rival.

[Sanjay M]

India gets its aerostats from Israel, while Pak gets them from USA:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/ ... 70519.aspx

[JCage]

Strategy Page and its BS. Pak decided against purchasing the aerostats. The same was admitted by the US head honcho in charge of clearing all the razzmatazz for Pak.
But they have purchased AN/TPS-77s- good targets for Kh-31's.

Indias decision to move ahead on its aerostat system is, in part, motivated by the recent success of LTTE rebels in Sri Lanka, using single engine commercial aircraft to bomb military targets (without much success, but the potential of such low flying aircraft was demonstrated.)

What c0ck and bull stuff SP comes up with..India decided to go for the Aerostats a long time back, but waited to see the results of the trials for the first 2, and will order 4 more. 13 are required in all, but it will be a gradual affair.

[Shreeman]

Any one know what this might be?

[Jaeger]

Any one know what this might be?

erm... the new all-aspect stealth ROBOCOPter(tm) with hingeless, bearingless, mostly-rotorless & bodyless technology?

[Shreeman]

Any one know what this might be?

erm... the new all-aspect stealth ROBOCOPter(tm) with hingeless, bearingless, mostly-rotorless & bodyless technology?

Sarcasm apart, its a serious question. It does not appear to be a photoshop experiment, and seems to be an actually flying device, with what might be hebrew on it. Look through the slideshow. If this is a hoax, its quite an elaborate one. Otherwise, its an interesting technology.

[Jaeger]

erm... the new all-aspect stealth ROBOCOPter(tm) with hingeless, bearingless, mostly-rotorless & bodyless technology?

Sarcasm apart, its a serious question. It does not appear to be a photoshop experiment, and seems to be an actually flying device, with what might be hebrew on it. Look through the slideshow. If this is a hoax, its quite an elaborate one. Otherwise, its an interesting technology.

400% PBUH explanation: 3D render onlee, then reworked into image with PS. you can see more images @:

coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2022.html?theme=light

v. clearly PS'ed... and the text is certainly not Hebrew, looks more like Klingon or something.

[Shreeman]

Sarcasm apart, its a serious question. It does not appear to be a photoshop experiment, and seems to be an actually flying device, with what might be hebrew on it. Look through the slideshow. If this is a hoax, its quite an elaborate one. Otherwise, its an interesting technology.

400% PBUH explanation: 3D render onlee, then reworked into image with PS. you can see more images @:

coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2022.html?theme=light

v. clearly PS'ed... and the text is certainly not Hebrew, looks more like Klingon or something.

Ah, its one of them I saw a UFO, lets start a rumor things.

[Jaeger]

400% PBUH explanation: 3D render onlee, then reworked into image with PS. you can see more images @:

coasttocoastam.com/gen/page2022.html?theme=light

v. clearly PS'ed... and the text is certainly not Hebrew, looks more like Klingon or something.

Ah, its one of them I saw a UFO, lets start a rumor things.

Yup... far more interesting is Boeing's A160 Hummingbird Rotary-UAV with 3500nm range & 24hr endurance...

It would be interesting also to explore developments in the area of 'zepplin' UAV's... edurance & altitude need not be too much of a problem, IR visibility will also be low. can a Radar-absorbent material be developed as a coating or even as a primary surface component?

imagine 96hr endurance lighter-than-air UAV's operating at 100,000 feet. Info gathered through SAR/ISAR and IR sensors. Minimal locomotive power needed - plus power for electronics could conceivably be generated through solar cells on the dorsal surface.

at that altitude, i would assume that power comes from specially-adapted turbofans?

this is highly doable...

[Raj Malhotra]

PAC report talks of induction of Rustom UAV, it would seem that this programme is more advanced then we previously thought.

[mandrake]

not only that unlike rumoured as a JV it is indigenous one.

[skher]

Slightly offtopic to this thread but anyhow...

One significant thing which I notice in US is that sarkari organizations like DARPA, US Special Operations Command etc. have strong research ties with all the major universities in the country. They not only fund research in a big way but work quite closely with faculty and students on real world complex problems (not just some menial task such as make so and so washer and nut-bolt). From my personal experience and from what I see around me this is what drives innovation forward and breeds new technology and researchers.

For example, the DARPA Urban challenge which is mentioned here (and the previous Grand challenge)....the guys who competed in building these autonomous vehicles were not 50 year old PhDs with 100s of research papers but mostly ordinary grad students (Masters and PhD students) studying in universities (ofcourse helped by faculty and strong industry backup in case of most universities (including mine)). But if you look at the finished product and what they achieved....totally incredible! So when guys who participated in stuff like this graduate and go to work in research labs and industry they already are heads and shoulders above the rest....cant beat this kind of advantage....one of the reasons why amrika bahadur is still way ahead in terms of technology.

Amerika bahadur has $$ and manhours to waste on things such as:

Quote:

http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~murray/wiki ... ol_Systems

Characterization of Insect Flight Control Systems

The current global objective of the project is to characterize and mathematically formalize (i.e. reverse engineer) the sensory-motor control system of the fly to a degree that its salient features can be used for the design of micro air vehicles and other autonomous systems of interest to the military. Toward this high-level goal, we are characterizing through direct experimentation and modeling the key components of the flight control system including (1) take-off, (2) rubustness to wing gust, (3) chemical tracking, and (4) sensory fusion (of visual and gyroscopic input). In most of our research we are using the common fruit fly, Drosophila, as our model system for studying and extracting flight control algorithms and architecture
.

Of course, Poor Indian Grad Students will go for the honeytrap, maybe advancing American Military Tech, maybe denying India brains for other use. Thing is, America is happy with either.

Unfortunately, this means India will always only have the Sukhoi/LCA to the F-22. (generation+ lag in tech). What to do? Time for Tea.

<end rant>

Not to worry.We seem to be working towards it.Delhi College Of Engineering has a quite a few interesting projects going.Hope DRDO discerns and applies the tactical possibilites arising out of it as soon as possible.Maybe having a liaison/supervising officer[possibly a retd. EME officer] in centrally funded engg.institutions like DCE and NITs would help.

Anyway,it is of great consequence that DCE participated and successfully demonstrated its UAV prototype in last year's International Aerial Robotics Competition.

Here's Hindu's Story:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/07/29/st ... 792000.htm

Another Useful Link For the UAV Thread:

Robotics India DCE Success Story

[mandrake]

http://www.uavindia.com/index.htm

Thats their site, the guy is on orkut as well, i once posted it here, check the ppt presentations.
IIRC i asked them if IAF will use it or stuff, he think said yes i forgot what he said ...

[skher]

http://www.uavindia.com/index.htm

Thats their site, the guy is on orkut as well, i once posted it here, check the ppt presentations.
IIRC i asked them if IAF will use it or stuff, he think said yes i forgot what he said ...

The site has gr8 pics..how to get them here?

Anyway,Can the IAF use its own money and enterprise [equipment/HR etc.] in funding UAV/UCAV research projects in universities?

If yes,it would be great for local UAV design capabilities and reduce import-based dependencies.

Imagine IIT building a state-of-the-art high altitude deep strike UCAV with IAF funding .

[negi]

Anyway,can the IAF autonomously design/sanction and commission aircraft like UAVs and Drones from their own budget with minimal bureaucratic interference?
If yes,it would be great for local UAV design capabilities.Imagine IIT building a state-of-the-art high altitude deep strike UCAV with IAF funding

Making a RC controlled miniature UAV is one thing and comissioning a full fledged UCAV capable of undertaking missions without human aid is completly diff ball game,I am sure IAF is pretty abreast with the latest developments in the technology which might find application in AF doctrine including UAV/UCAV etc,as of now IAF would be more than happy to see LCA being handed to them in the stipulated time frame.

If that's true, why isn't the IAF researching/acquiring UCAVs/UAVs by the droves to supplement its depleting fleet strength?

Kahan ho guru ? IAF has 32 of Searcher-II UAV's manufactured by IAI-Malat,iirc even the IAI Heron is in service,this apart we have indigenous Nishant

As far as UCAV's are concerned well to be honest no air force in world has a true UCAV in service even the USAF has MQ-1 Predator (a UAV) retro-fitted with two Hellfire missiles to give it limited AtG capability.
I guess a lot of R&D is still needed for a true UCAV (at par with manned combat A/C) to become a reality.

[skher]

My apologies,I should restrict myself to one query per post such that the message is not lost.I have re-edited my earlier post for the same.

The USAF has many seven working prototypes of UCAVs which are in technology demonstrator stage currently.So,it's likely that USAF would have one around operational by 2010.
The Pentagon is also studying swarm intelligence for its Persistent Munition Tech Demo [PMTD or "Dominator"] project.

The PRC is also planning unmanned versions of J-5,J-6 and J-7.

CIA report on UCAV by C.N.Ghosh

In his keynote address at the "International Seminar on Aerospace Technologies: Development and Strategies," at the Aero India, show at Bangalore, in February 2001, Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis pointed out the following:

Uninhabiting the aerial platform is already underway for a variety of applications. While the uninhabited combat air vehicles (UCAVs) are in my reckoning, still at least two decades away, the concept has already taken a firm hold. The stand-alone UCAV is not likely to be progressed directly but will possibly evolve as a directed buddy to other manned aircraft. The UCAV has not only the attraction of keeping combat casualties low, but overcomes human limiting stipulations on Grunching manoeuvres, and stringent cockpit environment for protection and survival of the pilot. This will give it a mind stunning performance, with 30G yanked turns at astounding speeds of 15-20 mach. And all that survivability will be high for ensuring mission accomplishment; high survivability will also give it extraordinary resilience, increasing the reusability factor manifold.

[Vipul]

HAL Hones UAV Skills With Partners.

India’s sole aircraft manufacturer, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), is gaining expertise in building UAVs through partnerships with overseas companies.

HAL has established, on an equity-sharing basis, a joint partnership with Elbit to manufacture simulators and avionics for the Israeli firm’s Skylark mini UAVs. The venture will help HAL develop a mini UAV of its own, a company official said.

Bangalore-based HAL holds 50 percent of the joint venture — HALBIT Avionics — with Elbit holding 26 percent and Merlinhawk, a Bangalore consultancy, holding 24 percent, a HAL executive said. An order for unspecified numbers of simulators and avionics has been placed with the new company, the executive said, but further details about the deal were not disclosed.
The Skylark mini UAVs have been ordered for the Israeli defense forces, but details were not available.

The Skylark could even see action with the defense forces here. A Ministry of Defense official said the Army may buy an unspecified number of mini UAVs, and a request for proposals is likely by the end of this year or in early 2008.

The HAL executive said HALBIT will develop training and simulation systems such as “full mission systems, computer-based trainers, maintenance simulators, virtual training and other airborne avionics.â€

[uavindia]

Hello

I am a team member of the DCE quad rotor UAV discussed here.

However, i would like to let you know that the development on that project has come to a standstill as there was no funding available to the project.

Regards
AK
ankur@coe.dce.edu