UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5244
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by srai »

Rakesh wrote:US 'considering' India's Request For Armed Drones For Air Force: Official
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-cons ... al-1765536
Earlier this year, the Indian Air Force had requested the US for General Atomics Predator C Avenger aircraft; the IAF would need 80 to 100 units making it approximately a $8 billion deal
How does the IAF plan to use armed drones in the Indian context? It is not involved in aerial strikes against militants within India and isn't involved in strikes against targets (without air cover that is) in foreign countries.

IMO, bulk of the $8 billion could be spent elsewhere on higher priority items, like more LCA and Rafales. In-service Israeli Heron-II and under-development Indian Rustom-II look to be sufficient for mission requirements of M/HALE category.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

Rex Tillerson Visit: Why Indian Navy Wants Unarmed American Drones
http://www.news18.com/news/india/rex-ti ... 55769.html
However, Indo-US interests will truly align in the Indian Ocean region. “No one nation can monitor the Indian Ocean by itself. It will be in American interest to have a nation of 2-3 nations, including India, with whom they can share intel. A drone can be an effective tool in monitoring the movement of Chinese aircraft carriers, for instance, in the Indian Ocean. Both US and India would want to keep Chinese activities under check in the Indian Ocean.”
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

US looks forward to completing Sea Guardian deal with India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 199416.cms
Vivek Lall, chief executive of US and international strategic development at General Atomics, said sale of Sea Guardian drones is a significant step in cementing the US- India bilateral defence relationship. To be sold at an estimated cost of USD 2 billion, this would help create some 2,000 jobs in the US, he said. The Sea Guardian is a variant of the tested MQ-9 platform which allows for greater interoperability with US and allied forces, Lall said adding that its use that its use by the Indian Navy will also develop the country's credible capabilities, which is significant for Indian maritime security and naval power projection.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ramana »

The jobs number is the standard 1000 jobs/ $1B sales.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5244
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by srai »

^^^
What percentage of that is being invested back in India as part of offsets? How many jobs is it creating in India?
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_V »

I think it is '0'offsets
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by brar_w »

I think the GOI has introduced offset mandates for all foreign military sales. having said that, given General Atomic's size and portfolio they will struggle to offer comprehensive offsets without having to up the overall cost significantly. This is different from a company like Boeing which already has established relationships in India across commercial and defense OEMs and can simply increase orders for the same.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5413
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Manish_P »

India’s 1st Drone Regulations Drafted
Civil Aviation Ministry has, for the first time ever, drafted rules and regulations for using drones in India

#1: Govt. has categorized 5 types of drones: nano, micro, mini, small and large, and the weights of these drones range from 250 gram to 150 kgs.

#2: Drones under 250 grams, which are called nano, won’t be required to have any security clearance for usage. Micro drones, which are 250 grams to 2 kgs, will have security clearance within 2 days.

#3: Drones are henceforth, allowed to be used for photography, medical uses, ad film making and more activities. E-commerce companies can use drones for home delivery and restaurants can use drones for food delivery.

#4: There shall be ‘no-drone’ zones at some specific, important locations like operational aerodromes across the country, within 5-kms radius of Vijay Chowk in New Delhi (because Parliament, Supreme Court and Rashtrapati Bhawan is situated there). Besides, drones won’t be allowed within 500 meters of strategic political and military locations, from mobile platforms such as car, ship or air craft; and national parks and wildlife sanctuaries (unless approved by Environment Ministry).

#5: Except Nano Drones, all other types of drones will be required different clearances from various departments. Air defense clearance is must, so that security authorities are aware of the route of the drone.

#6: However, drones which are less than 2 kg, and flying within 200 meters, can fly without any clearance, once registered with the Civil Aviation Ministry. In future, Govt. may allow drones for carrying passengers as well! (Uber, please take notice)

#7: Govt. has said that strict privacy protection laws will be implemented, for using drones. The operator of drones cannot film or record anyone, without permission, and the the route cannot be altered, once approved.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by JayS »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920913696611647488
The @DRDO_India airborne synthetic aperture radar is currently undergoing tests. Here is what the Rustom-H configuration looks like.
Image in tweet.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

I have a feeling that ADE is designing a jet-powered UAV. Or may be a new iteration of Nirbhay. But most likely, it is the first.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

Now this is a very welcome change. I have been suggesting this for a while now. One cannot build a parallel to HAL in a couple of years. It has to be built ground up. Start from medium sized UAVs, light trainers and transport and move up. SEF does not build capability. It just lines some already wealthy pockets.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/11/imports-iffy-indian-army-scouts-60-all-indian-spy-drones.html

1. Am I sensing a change in tone of Shiv Aroor's recent articles towards desi hardware. If yes, it is welcome.
2. ADE has its work cutout. Here comes competition.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Thakur_B »

Indranil wrote:I have a feeling that ADE is designing a jet-powered UAV. Or may be a new iteration of Nirbhay. But most likely, it is the first.
HAL had plans for one with a wingspan of 30 meters (avenger for comparison has a wingspan of 20 meters) and an endurance of 50 hours. I suppose that is where HTFE-25 fits in.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=4&q ... UAV-family
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

HTFEs first target was jet trainers.

HAL is screwdrivering sone Israeli drones. The true drone revolution is actually happening in the private sector, not so much among the big guys. But the smaller ones.
tandav
BRFite
Posts: 722
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by tandav »

In related news... did the chinese shoot down a drone

http://zeenews.india.com/india/indian-d ... 63772.html
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14332
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_V »

Even the Chinese claim it crashed.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by manjgu »

a Tv channel is showing a program on Omnipresent Tech ..a UAV startup of 3 ex IITans....
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

The Indian drone that crashed in China could be a goldmine for Chinese weapons engineers
https://theprint.in/2017/12/07/if-the-f ... echnology/

By Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd)
The news we are waiting for is whether the UAV crashed on its own or more worryingly, was brought down by the Chinese.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5244
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by srai »

^^^
The Chinese clone is coming :P
Eric Leiderman
BRFite
Posts: 364
Joined: 26 Nov 2010 08:56

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Eric Leiderman »

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/drone-d ... eststories

indian private industry showing its capability.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

Drone Designed By Indian Start-Up Could Track China's Military Moves
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/drone-d ... es-1784952
NewSpace Research and Technologies did all research and development of the aircraft in-house, which is being validated by aerospace major Boeing
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rakesh »

India kicks off a $2 billion procurement of Sea Guardian drones
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/12/i ... ement.html

Govt-to-govt deal with US will add to $5 billion of American arms already in the pipeline

On Wednesday, the government disclosed India’s next major defence purchase from the United States – the procurement of Sea Guardian unmanned aerial systems (UAS) to patrol the waters off the Indian coastline. The contract for an estimated 22 Sea Guardian drones will be worth approximately $2 billion. Like most defence platforms that New Delhi has bought from Washington over the last decade, this deal is being pursued on a government-to-government basis, and with no manufacture in India. The defence minister told Parliament in writing today in response to a Member’s question: “Request for Information (RFI) for Predator ‘B’ Sea Guardian [drones] was issued to the US Office of Defence Cooperation on 14.11.2017 (November 14) and response is awaited”. “Procurement of Predator ‘B’ Sea Guardian is being progressed under Buy (Global) category [of the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016] and no transfer of technology is envisaged”, stated the minister’s response. In June, a joint statement after Prime Minister Narendra Modi met President Donald Trump in Washington D.C. noted that the US has offered India the sale of Sea Guardian Unmanned Aerial Systems, to “enhance India’s capabilities and promote shared security interests.”

The Sea Guardian will add to $5 billion worth of weaponry already in the pipeline from the US. That includes four Boeing P-8I Poseidon maritime aircraft for a billion dollars; one C-17 Globemaster III for $366 million; $3 billion worth of helicopters – including 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy lifters – and a $700 million order for 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers. The Sea Guardian, built by US firm General Atomics, is the naval version of the legendary Predator B armed drone (also termed the MQ-9 Reaper), with which the US has killed terrorists in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen. India had asked for the armed version, but Washington has only offered the unarmed Sea Guardian, which performs maritime surveillance. Travelling at 300 kilometres per hour at 50,000 feet, the Sea Guardian flies 14-hour missions to monitor waters 1,800 kilometres from base. It sends imagery in real time to a ground control room on base, which flies the drone through a two-way data link. Pointing out that India is the first non-NATO country to which Washington has agreed to export the Sea Guardian, US industry experts tell Business Standard India’s designation as a US “major defence partner” opened the doors for the sale.

Being a “Category 1” system under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), Sea Guardians are they are tightly controlled because of their presumed ability to also deliver nuclear weapons. MTCR member countries are required to adopt a “presumption of denial” for all requests for “Category 1” systems, except on pressing national security grounds. So far, Washington has cleared sales of the Sea Guardian only to US allies that are engaged in active combat operations in alliance with US military forces. Operators include France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and the United Kingdom. According to a The New York Times report in June, pro-Indian US congressmen facilitated the Sea Guardian clearance. After three Indian requests to the Pentagon, Senators John Cornyn and Mark Warner wrote to Defence Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to clear the sale, to “advance U.S. national security interests and protect U.S. jobs.” India’s own RPV development programme is relatively primitive. Updating parliament today, the defence minister revealed: “The development of Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Rustom-II is an indigenous effort wherein majority of the sub-systems like airframe, landing gear, avionics systems, flight control systems and datalink systems have been developed indigenously through various private industries. Sub-systems like propulsion systems, sensor systems and payloads have been currently imported for which indigenous development has been undertaken through sister DRDO labs [Defence R&D Organisation laboratories]”.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

ADE has called for:
1. RCS studies on different scale-models
2. CFD studies on flying-wing UAV, and
3. Manufacture of various parts of an UAV-TD which has engine nacelle and nozzle.

Aura, or something else?
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7793
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Prasad »

Ghatak?
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

Aura=Ghatak=IUSAV
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by JayS »

Indranil wrote:ADE has called for:
1. RCS studies on different scale-models
2. CFD studies on flying-wing UAV, and
3. Manufacture of various parts of an UAV-TD which has engine nacelle and nozzle.

Aura, or something else?
Can you email me the link..? Thanks.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

I did. But now I have found out what it is. It is not jet powered, at least UAV TD is not. It will be a test platform for low cost testing of subsystems before they go onto developmental UAVs.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

I made a critical mistake here. Should have let IDRW write an exclusive, before revealing that I was wrong :D
nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 992
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by nvishal »

$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone

Compare that to what we bought from Israel - an armed heron drone for $40 million each
https://www.timesofisrael.com/india-to- ... 400m-deal/

Something not right?
jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1696
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by jaysimha »

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF SHORT
RANGE REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT SYSTEM (RPAS) FOR THE
INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdf
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by chola »

nvishal wrote:$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone

Compare that to what we bought from Israel - an armed heron drone for $40 million each
https://www.timesofisrael.com/india-to- ... 400m-deal/

Something not right?
Probably includes training, support and spares? But if $91M is truly the case, I rather put that money into a second Vikrant or even the 65K-ton carrier being put on ice by the MOD for being too “expensive” than some unarmed drones.
vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by vasu raya »

It stands to conjecture that US wouldn’t provide us with armed drones until local UAV programs make progress there, until then its asymptotic negotiations

SANT is also ready...
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by brar_w »

$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone
So this only buys you the drone? What about training, modifications to support Indian data-links, Indian SATCOM terminals etc, what about the sensor package and logistics? Any offsets involved? Taking a top line and dividing it by the projected number may work with the largely ignorant (on defense matters) MSM, but if you are discussing something in a forum that has a higher level of discourse then it is definitely not adding much imho.
It stands to conjecture that US wouldn’t provide us with armed drones until local UAV programs make progress there, until then its asymptotic negotiations
There are quite a few reports out there that there may be a sale of armed drones quite different and separate from the Sea Guardians which will act in the MS capacity. The US itself does not arm its UM-BAMS systems and intends on using them to Surveil large swaths of oceans where it is cost prohibitive to provide large number of manned MPA orbits.

Anti Submarine operations was one area where the UMBAMS had been lacking for a number of years, but there has been strong movement of late to develop and demonstrate capability this capability and it seems that the Predator family is ahead of even the Triton the USN's preferred BAMS platform for the mission which declares IOC in 2018.

http://mil-embedded.com/news/mq-9-uas-s ... nstration/
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^^brar warrior,
doesnt this deal put us at a risk vis a vis pakis? If there is an integration with our satcom/data links then wouldnt it given the americans a good idea about our practices and capabilities and if required infiltrate as and when needed?Not..lungi shiver..I am sure GoI and Indian military would have weighed these cost benefits much before
vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by vasu raya »

brar ji, the gripe is more about doing COIN stuff using armed UAVs and not about the ASW capabilities, the latter would be a welcome development. There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it

Anyways, Tunneling is quite possible if they retain their original data links in some form even if BEL made equipment is used, actually the NLOS data links are said to be an issue in the local UAV development, so not sure if there is an indigenous alternative yet other than Satcom
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by brar_w »

doesnt this deal put us at a risk vis a vis pakis? If there is an integration with our satcom/data links then wouldnt it given the americans a good idea about our practices and capabilities and if required infiltrate as and when needed?Not..lungi shiver..I am sure GoI and Indian military would have weighed these cost benefits much before
Wouldn't the entire point of the modifications be to introduce Indian SATCOM and data-link solutions? How is Dassault being allowed to do this on the rafale? Wouldn't it give the French " a good idea about ...". How is this any different from what has and is being done on the P-8?
brar ji, the gripe is more about doing COIN stuff using armed UAVs and not about the ASW capabilities, the latter would be a welcome development. There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it
The IN expressed interest in a BAMS platform to augment the P-8s (one would assume this). The MOD moved this and finally requested Sea Guardians from the US via a G2G route to support a specific mission and role.

BTW, How well does the P-8 I do COIN?
There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it
Ok.
Last edited by brar_w on 26 Dec 2017 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ArjunPandit »

brar ji, that was a geniune pooch ...honestly i have the same fear but no idea on any of these either...and thats why i asked this question to you
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by brar_w »

ArjunPandit wrote:brar ji, that was a geniune pooch ...honestly i have the same fear but no idea on any of these either...and thats why i asked this question to you
There are professionals in the Indian Navy and the MOD that are subject matter experts in these areas that will have to approve any such deals or modifications to allow them to safeguard, as much as can be safeguarded on any foreign purchase, the data and the operations of these drones. Again, this applies to all foreign sourced systems. Do you have fears that Thales or Dassault will pipe into any modifications that the IAF may do to the Rafale's ESM suite over the years? What about the Russians vis-a-vis their gear? or the Israelis that are currently supplying drones?
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^brar sir, I completely understand get your point from the surface, I obviously dont possess the same depth as yours so unable to get it. Perhaps this question should have been to newbie forum.
Lastly, the interests of israelies, french and ruskies are in general not at odds with ours..but khan is a different story, they have a proven history of active sabotage (LCA, Cryogenic engines). I am sure you know better
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Indranil »

jaysimha wrote:REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF SHORT
RANGE REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT SYSTEM (RPAS) FOR THE
INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdf
Definitely a chance that ADE missed with Rustom-1.

Meanwhile, the production of the first 65 hp Wankel engine for Panchi has been completed.
nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 992
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by nvishal »

brar_w wrote:
$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone
So this only buys you the drone? What about training, modifications to support Indian data-links, Indian SATCOM terminals etc, what about the sensor package and logistics? Any offsets involved? Taking a top line and dividing it by the projected number may work with the largely ignorant (on defense matters) MSM, but if you are discussing something in a forum that has a higher level of discourse then it is definitely not adding much imho
Obviously, the support cost is understood. But what I don't understand is that the cost of each drone and it's support cost is half and half(45+45m).

I don't understand why India would put 2 billion into this. Obviously, I do understand that finding out the ORBAT structure on the other side of border is important before war but wouldn't smaller hand throw drones be appropriate for the job?

Heron that crashed in China seems to have had its navigation controls jammed by the chinese.
Post Reply