UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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srai
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srai » 23 Oct 2017 04:30

Rakesh wrote:US 'considering' India's Request For Armed Drones For Air Force: Official
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-cons ... al-1765536

Earlier this year, the Indian Air Force had requested the US for General Atomics Predator C Avenger aircraft; the IAF would need 80 to 100 units making it approximately a $8 billion deal

How does the IAF plan to use armed drones in the Indian context? It is not involved in aerial strikes against militants within India and isn't involved in strikes against targets (without air cover that is) in foreign countries.

IMO, bulk of the $8 billion could be spent elsewhere on higher priority items, like more LCA and Rafales. In-service Israeli Heron-II and under-development Indian Rustom-II look to be sufficient for mission requirements of M/HALE category.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2017 23:56

Rex Tillerson Visit: Why Indian Navy Wants Unarmed American Drones
http://www.news18.com/news/india/rex-ti ... 55769.html

However, Indo-US interests will truly align in the Indian Ocean region. “No one nation can monitor the Indian Ocean by itself. It will be in American interest to have a nation of 2-3 nations, including India, with whom they can share intel. A drone can be an effective tool in monitoring the movement of Chinese aircraft carriers, for instance, in the Indian Ocean. Both US and India would want to keep Chinese activities under check in the Indian Ocean.”

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 25 Oct 2017 01:59

US looks forward to completing Sea Guardian deal with India
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 199416.cms

Vivek Lall, chief executive of US and international strategic development at General Atomics, said sale of Sea Guardian drones is a significant step in cementing the US- India bilateral defence relationship. To be sold at an estimated cost of USD 2 billion, this would help create some 2,000 jobs in the US, he said. The Sea Guardian is a variant of the tested MQ-9 platform which allows for greater interoperability with US and allied forces, Lall said adding that its use that its use by the Indian Navy will also develop the country's credible capabilities, which is significant for Indian maritime security and naval power projection.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ramana » 25 Oct 2017 02:47

The jobs number is the standard 1000 jobs/ $1B sales.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srai » 25 Oct 2017 04:05

^^^
What percentage of that is being invested back in India as part of offsets? How many jobs is it creating in India?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Oct 2017 16:14

I think it is '0'offsets

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 25 Oct 2017 16:27

I think the GOI has introduced offset mandates for all foreign military sales. having said that, given General Atomic's size and portfolio they will struggle to offer comprehensive offsets without having to up the overall cost significantly. This is different from a company like Boeing which already has established relationships in India across commercial and defense OEMs and can simply increase orders for the same.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Manish_P » 06 Nov 2017 10:54

India’s 1st Drone Regulations Drafted

Civil Aviation Ministry has, for the first time ever, drafted rules and regulations for using drones in India



#1: Govt. has categorized 5 types of drones: nano, micro, mini, small and large, and the weights of these drones range from 250 gram to 150 kgs.

#2: Drones under 250 grams, which are called nano, won’t be required to have any security clearance for usage. Micro drones, which are 250 grams to 2 kgs, will have security clearance within 2 days.

#3: Drones are henceforth, allowed to be used for photography, medical uses, ad film making and more activities. E-commerce companies can use drones for home delivery and restaurants can use drones for food delivery.

#4: There shall be ‘no-drone’ zones at some specific, important locations like operational aerodromes across the country, within 5-kms radius of Vijay Chowk in New Delhi (because Parliament, Supreme Court and Rashtrapati Bhawan is situated there). Besides, drones won’t be allowed within 500 meters of strategic political and military locations, from mobile platforms such as car, ship or air craft; and national parks and wildlife sanctuaries (unless approved by Environment Ministry).

#5: Except Nano Drones, all other types of drones will be required different clearances from various departments. Air defense clearance is must, so that security authorities are aware of the route of the drone.

#6: However, drones which are less than 2 kg, and flying within 200 meters, can fly without any clearance, once registered with the Civil Aviation Ministry. In future, Govt. may allow drones for carrying passengers as well! (Uber, please take notice)

#7: Govt. has said that strict privacy protection laws will be implemented, for using drones. The operator of drones cannot film or record anyone, without permission, and the the route cannot be altered, once approved.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 06 Nov 2017 12:05

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/920913696611647488

The @DRDO_India airborne synthetic aperture radar is currently undergoing tests. Here is what the Rustom-H configuration looks like.


Image in tweet.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 22 Nov 2017 05:00

I have a feeling that ADE is designing a jet-powered UAV. Or may be a new iteration of Nirbhay. But most likely, it is the first.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 03 Dec 2017 01:51

Now this is a very welcome change. I have been suggesting this for a while now. One cannot build a parallel to HAL in a couple of years. It has to be built ground up. Start from medium sized UAVs, light trainers and transport and move up. SEF does not build capability. It just lines some already wealthy pockets.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/11/imports-iffy-indian-army-scouts-60-all-indian-spy-drones.html

1. Am I sensing a change in tone of Shiv Aroor's recent articles towards desi hardware. If yes, it is welcome.
2. ADE has its work cutout. Here comes competition.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Thakur_B » 03 Dec 2017 08:37

Indranil wrote:I have a feeling that ADE is designing a jet-powered UAV. Or may be a new iteration of Nirbhay. But most likely, it is the first.


HAL had plans for one with a wingspan of 30 meters (avenger for comparison has a wingspan of 20 meters) and an endurance of 50 hours. I suppose that is where HTFE-25 fits in.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=4&q=HAL-scouts-partner-for-new-UAV-family

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 03 Dec 2017 11:26

HTFEs first target was jet trainers.

HAL is screwdrivering sone Israeli drones. The true drone revolution is actually happening in the private sector, not so much among the big guys. But the smaller ones.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby tandav » 07 Dec 2017 15:03


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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Dec 2017 15:06

Even the Chinese claim it crashed.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby manjgu » 07 Dec 2017 15:56

a Tv channel is showing a program on Omnipresent Tech ..a UAV startup of 3 ex IITans....

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2017 20:37

The Indian drone that crashed in China could be a goldmine for Chinese weapons engineers
https://theprint.in/2017/12/07/if-the-f ... echnology/

By Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd)

The news we are waiting for is whether the UAV crashed on its own or more worryingly, was brought down by the Chinese.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby srai » 07 Dec 2017 20:55

^^^
The Chinese clone is coming :P

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Eric Leiderman » 07 Dec 2017 21:07

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/drone-d ... eststories

indian private industry showing its capability.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 09 Dec 2017 22:10

Drone Designed By Indian Start-Up Could Track China's Military Moves
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/drone-d ... es-1784952

NewSpace Research and Technologies did all research and development of the aircraft in-house, which is being validated by aerospace major Boeing

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2017 02:54

India kicks off a $2 billion procurement of Sea Guardian drones
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/12/india-kicks-off-2-billion-procurement.html

Govt-to-govt deal with US will add to $5 billion of American arms already in the pipeline

On Wednesday, the government disclosed India’s next major defence purchase from the United States – the procurement of Sea Guardian unmanned aerial systems (UAS) to patrol the waters off the Indian coastline. The contract for an estimated 22 Sea Guardian drones will be worth approximately $2 billion. Like most defence platforms that New Delhi has bought from Washington over the last decade, this deal is being pursued on a government-to-government basis, and with no manufacture in India. The defence minister told Parliament in writing today in response to a Member’s question: “Request for Information (RFI) for Predator ‘B’ Sea Guardian [drones] was issued to the US Office of Defence Cooperation on 14.11.2017 (November 14) and response is awaited”. “Procurement of Predator ‘B’ Sea Guardian is being progressed under Buy (Global) category [of the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2016] and no transfer of technology is envisaged”, stated the minister’s response. In June, a joint statement after Prime Minister Narendra Modi met President Donald Trump in Washington D.C. noted that the US has offered India the sale of Sea Guardian Unmanned Aerial Systems, to “enhance India’s capabilities and promote shared security interests.”

The Sea Guardian will add to $5 billion worth of weaponry already in the pipeline from the US. That includes four Boeing P-8I Poseidon maritime aircraft for a billion dollars; one C-17 Globemaster III for $366 million; $3 billion worth of helicopters – including 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy lifters – and a $700 million order for 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers. The Sea Guardian, built by US firm General Atomics, is the naval version of the legendary Predator B armed drone (also termed the MQ-9 Reaper), with which the US has killed terrorists in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen. India had asked for the armed version, but Washington has only offered the unarmed Sea Guardian, which performs maritime surveillance. Travelling at 300 kilometres per hour at 50,000 feet, the Sea Guardian flies 14-hour missions to monitor waters 1,800 kilometres from base. It sends imagery in real time to a ground control room on base, which flies the drone through a two-way data link. Pointing out that India is the first non-NATO country to which Washington has agreed to export the Sea Guardian, US industry experts tell Business Standard India’s designation as a US “major defence partner” opened the doors for the sale.

Being a “Category 1” system under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), Sea Guardians are they are tightly controlled because of their presumed ability to also deliver nuclear weapons. MTCR member countries are required to adopt a “presumption of denial” for all requests for “Category 1” systems, except on pressing national security grounds. So far, Washington has cleared sales of the Sea Guardian only to US allies that are engaged in active combat operations in alliance with US military forces. Operators include France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and the United Kingdom. According to a The New York Times report in June, pro-Indian US congressmen facilitated the Sea Guardian clearance. After three Indian requests to the Pentagon, Senators John Cornyn and Mark Warner wrote to Defence Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to clear the sale, to “advance U.S. national security interests and protect U.S. jobs.” India’s own RPV development programme is relatively primitive. Updating parliament today, the defence minister revealed: “The development of Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Rustom-II is an indigenous effort wherein majority of the sub-systems like airframe, landing gear, avionics systems, flight control systems and datalink systems have been developed indigenously through various private industries. Sub-systems like propulsion systems, sensor systems and payloads have been currently imported for which indigenous development has been undertaken through sister DRDO labs [Defence R&D Organisation laboratories]”.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2017 05:52

ADE has called for:
1. RCS studies on different scale-models
2. CFD studies on flying-wing UAV, and
3. Manufacture of various parts of an UAV-TD which has engine nacelle and nozzle.

Aura, or something else?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Prasad » 22 Dec 2017 09:16

Ghatak?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2017 12:33

Aura=Ghatak=IUSAV

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby JayS » 22 Dec 2017 14:15

Indranil wrote:ADE has called for:
1. RCS studies on different scale-models
2. CFD studies on flying-wing UAV, and
3. Manufacture of various parts of an UAV-TD which has engine nacelle and nozzle.

Aura, or something else?


Can you email me the link..? Thanks.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 22 Dec 2017 23:15

I did. But now I have found out what it is. It is not jet powered, at least UAV TD is not. It will be a test platform for low cost testing of subsystems before they go onto developmental UAVs.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 24 Dec 2017 10:19

I made a critical mistake here. Should have let IDRW write an exclusive, before revealing that I was wrong :D

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby nvishal » 25 Dec 2017 00:04

$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone

Compare that to what we bought from Israel - an armed heron drone for $40 million each
https://www.timesofisrael.com/india-to- ... 400m-deal/

Something not right?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby jaysimha » 25 Dec 2017 16:39

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF SHORT
RANGE REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT SYSTEM (RPAS) FOR THE
INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdf

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby chola » 25 Dec 2017 17:01

nvishal wrote:$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone

Compare that to what we bought from Israel - an armed heron drone for $40 million each
https://www.timesofisrael.com/india-to- ... 400m-deal/

Something not right?


Probably includes training, support and spares? But if $91M is truly the case, I rather put that money into a second Vikrant or even the 65K-ton carrier being put on ice by the MOD for being too “expensive” than some unarmed drones.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 25 Dec 2017 21:22

It stands to conjecture that US wouldn’t provide us with armed drones until local UAV programs make progress there, until then its asymptotic negotiations

SANT is also ready...

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 25 Dec 2017 21:40

$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone


So this only buys you the drone? What about training, modifications to support Indian data-links, Indian SATCOM terminals etc, what about the sensor package and logistics? Any offsets involved? Taking a top line and dividing it by the projected number may work with the largely ignorant (on defense matters) MSM, but if you are discussing something in a forum that has a higher level of discourse then it is definitely not adding much imho.

It stands to conjecture that US wouldn’t provide us with armed drones until local UAV programs make progress there, until then its asymptotic negotiations


There are quite a few reports out there that there may be a sale of armed drones quite different and separate from the Sea Guardians which will act in the MS capacity. The US itself does not arm its UM-BAMS systems and intends on using them to Surveil large swaths of oceans where it is cost prohibitive to provide large number of manned MPA orbits.

Anti Submarine operations was one area where the UMBAMS had been lacking for a number of years, but there has been strong movement of late to develop and demonstrate capability this capability and it seems that the Predator family is ahead of even the Triton the USN's preferred BAMS platform for the mission which declares IOC in 2018.

http://mil-embedded.com/news/mq-9-uas-s ... nstration/

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Dec 2017 23:43

^^^brar warrior,
doesnt this deal put us at a risk vis a vis pakis? If there is an integration with our satcom/data links then wouldnt it given the americans a good idea about our practices and capabilities and if required infiltrate as and when needed?Not..lungi shiver..I am sure GoI and Indian military would have weighed these cost benefits much before

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby vasu raya » 26 Dec 2017 00:06

brar ji, the gripe is more about doing COIN stuff using armed UAVs and not about the ASW capabilities, the latter would be a welcome development. There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it

Anyways, Tunneling is quite possible if they retain their original data links in some form even if BEL made equipment is used, actually the NLOS data links are said to be an issue in the local UAV development, so not sure if there is an indigenous alternative yet other than Satcom

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 26 Dec 2017 00:31

doesnt this deal put us at a risk vis a vis pakis? If there is an integration with our satcom/data links then wouldnt it given the americans a good idea about our practices and capabilities and if required infiltrate as and when needed?Not..lungi shiver..I am sure GoI and Indian military would have weighed these cost benefits much before


Wouldn't the entire point of the modifications be to introduce Indian SATCOM and data-link solutions? How is Dassault being allowed to do this on the rafale? Wouldn't it give the French " a good idea about ...". How is this any different from what has and is being done on the P-8?

brar ji, the gripe is more about doing COIN stuff using armed UAVs and not about the ASW capabilities, the latter would be a welcome development. There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it


The IN expressed interest in a BAMS platform to augment the P-8s (one would assume this). The MOD moved this and finally requested Sea Guardians from the US via a G2G route to support a specific mission and role.

BTW, How well does the P-8 I do COIN?

There were reports about spotting Chinese subs by the P8I's but so far haven't heard about any Pak sub being trailed lest the US doesn't like it


Ok.
Last edited by brar_w on 26 Dec 2017 00:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Dec 2017 00:37

brar ji, that was a geniune pooch ...honestly i have the same fear but no idea on any of these either...and thats why i asked this question to you

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby brar_w » 26 Dec 2017 00:40

ArjunPandit wrote:brar ji, that was a geniune pooch ...honestly i have the same fear but no idea on any of these either...and thats why i asked this question to you


There are professionals in the Indian Navy and the MOD that are subject matter experts in these areas that will have to approve any such deals or modifications to allow them to safeguard, as much as can be safeguarded on any foreign purchase, the data and the operations of these drones. Again, this applies to all foreign sourced systems. Do you have fears that Thales or Dassault will pipe into any modifications that the IAF may do to the Rafale's ESM suite over the years? What about the Russians vis-a-vis their gear? or the Israelis that are currently supplying drones?

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Dec 2017 05:51

^^brar sir, I completely understand get your point from the surface, I obviously dont possess the same depth as yours so unable to get it. Perhaps this question should have been to newbie forum.
Lastly, the interests of israelies, french and ruskies are in general not at odds with ours..but khan is a different story, they have a proven history of active sabotage (LCA, Cryogenic engines). I am sure you know better

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby Indranil » 26 Dec 2017 10:34

jaysimha wrote:REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF SHORT
RANGE REMOTELY PILOTED AIRCRAFT SYSTEM (RPAS) FOR THE
INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES
https://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata ... v%2017.pdf

Definitely a chance that ADE missed with Rustom-1.

Meanwhile, the production of the first 65 hp Wankel engine for Panchi has been completed.

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Postby nvishal » 26 Dec 2017 11:19

brar_w wrote:
$2 billion for 22 drones?

That's around $91 million for each surveillance drone


So this only buys you the drone? What about training, modifications to support Indian data-links, Indian SATCOM terminals etc, what about the sensor package and logistics? Any offsets involved? Taking a top line and dividing it by the projected number may work with the largely ignorant (on defense matters) MSM, but if you are discussing something in a forum that has a higher level of discourse then it is definitely not adding much imho

Obviously, the support cost is understood. But what I don't understand is that the cost of each drone and it's support cost is half and half(45+45m).

I don't understand why India would put 2 billion into this. Obviously, I do understand that finding out the ORBAT structure on the other side of border is important before war but wouldn't smaller hand throw drones be appropriate for the job?

Heron that crashed in China seems to have had its navigation controls jammed by the chinese.


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