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Radar - Specs & Discussions

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Postby Singha » 21 Feb 2007 17:03

against a AWACS sized radar SPJ isnt much of a option. two ways exist.

(a) all aspect stealth (F22, B2, JSF(sort of), F117, stealthy X-Ucavs)
(b) a Bear-J type airborne platform with equal power to the awacs

some might say (c) KS172 but is tough

(d) destroy the awacs on ground via real-time satintel via CM strike, again
depends on superb coverage from space based assets and a Thawk ranged
CM.

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Postby Dileep » 22 Feb 2007 00:24

SaiK wrote:also, dileep, care explaining w.r.t active t/rs noise to increase range? 10 times with 80% effective range, without extra power? is this something against the switching mode of apg79?, that these zhuk-a t/rs would be permanently active?

No, the modules are pulsed onlee.

How is the range determined? A certain amount of power goes out of the transceiver, gets spread and attenuated as it goes out. Hits the target, gets reflected, travels back, attenuates more and reaches the reciever. The receiver have a certain amount of noise. If the received signal is more than the noise, you can detect it. If it is equal or less than the noise, you can't detect it.

Given a certain power output and rx noise level, you can arrive at a range that gives just enough signal to be detected. that is range.

Now, what should you do to increase range. Either increase the output power or decrease the noise level. The first one involves more power draw and more cooling. the second one just need better circuits. Obviously, the latter is better.

We are talking about ratio of the transmitted and received powers here. So, a 10 times increase in tx power is equal to a 10 times reduction in rx noise. Either case will give around 78% increase in range. But increasing power 10 times is kind of impossible, while reducing noise is "not impossible"

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Postby SaiK » 22 Feb 2007 00:37

great .. thanks. yeah i understand the noise level need to be reduced. and a better way for detection.

q. can the receiver part separated perhaps way away from the transmitter, to reduce noise.

2. if its on pulse, then there should be enough time lag (estimated time lag) to receive the attenuated signal. during this lag, the noise can be switched off, emanating from the transmitters... if this can be done, why would the noise be be a big probelm?

3. or if its noise from other heat source or interference then, its a design issue, something can be worked out.

4. if we can figure out the attenuation levels, then we can have monitoring chips that just do noise control, and ensure no transmission happens while receiver is on. I guess, this requires extremely high processing capabilities, or switching systems.

am i asking silly questions? sorry.

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Postby Dileep » 22 Feb 2007 02:14

The tx and rx are NEVER on together. Because they use the same antenna.

No, rx can't be too much seperated from TX, beause of the same reason.

The noise they talk about is the noise within the RX system, not the cross talk noise from TX. However, the more the TX power, more it heats up and more thermal noise. Otherwise, noise reduction focus on better circuit design and better grunding/shielding/isolation. That includes all elements, right from the diplexer that connects the antenna to the rx input, to the AD converter. Processing can improve the S/N ratio a litle bit, but most of the action is in eliminating the noise itself.

What the "superchip" in F-22 does is with the processing of the data. For example, by looking at the slight variation of returns from the same target, you can arrive at kind of a signature that corresponds to the returns from the various features of the AC. Hence the AC can be identified even under radio silence. Also, it will take a lot of processing power if you go for spread specrum emissions. Right now, the processing power itself is not a problem, but developing the software takes a lot of effort.

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Postby Sumeet » 22 Feb 2007 03:49

maitya wrote:
Sumeet wrote:But soon IAF will have to face S-Band AWACS. So there is need to increase the air to air jammer spectrum to cover from L Band to X Band.

And you will need very high power to counter AWACs radar. Simple SPJ may not have the ERPs adequate to screen the platform they are onbaord especially if the AWACS resort to burn through mode of transmission.

Here is a good article on jamming.
http://www.mputtre.com/id16.html


Sumeet, why'd a point-defense fighter like a Bison need to jam the S or L band - I mean, at none of these bands the range and angular resolution is good enough for weapon employment. Of course, they'd love to do that but that'd be from offensive jamming perspective - a diff requirement - more suitable for dedicated standoff jamming platforms like the prowler. But not for "self protection" purposes, IMO ...


Maitya sorry for not presenting my thoughts clearly. I didn't have in my mind for bison to carry such a capable jammer. But there is a need for dedicated stand off jamming. L Band is good for Surveillance and C Band good for fire control and S that lies in between is a good compromise if you want both in one package. That is why we have S-Band MF STAR radar which combines volume search & fire control in one unit. L-Band is not used for fire control generally though in Green Pine and India's LRTR it is used for fire control as well. With AWACS out there both detection and tracking will be initiated by them first. These tracks will then be handed over to F-16s etc.. for weapon fire control. So we need jammers capable of implementing smart noise and deception jamming techniques. And as i wrote earlier i agree that simple SPJs won't do the job. We will need high power offensive jammers that do stand-off and/or escort jamming. The only platform that had enough space to become growler type for india is MKI.

Or as Singha said KS-172, on ground destruction through CM attack will be alternatives. I don't know whats India;s official position on induction [date/timeline] of 5th gen fighter. So can't comment on all aspect stealth option. But even with all aspect stealth of JSF they are going to have growlers in the navy. Or may be growlers will patch up with mission of SH-Blk2 fighters. Chicoms are actively reasearching into stand-off jamming against airborne early warning radar at Nat. Univ. of Defense Technol. If it bears fruit expect our AWACS to face some music.

Where will pukes keep their AWACS -- Peshawar or Quetta ??? As far as possible from the border since they lack strategic depth.

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Postby Arun_S » 22 Feb 2007 06:35

Just a titbit: Two days ago I saw the Pakistani Aerostat that is deployed near LaHore ;) The recce flight was good. :roll:

Fizzle-eya Air Force was, as always a fizzle

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Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2007 08:30

Quetta or western baluchistan like Dalbandin will be given extra infra as main bases for Ereyie one expects, including underground hangers capable of soaking up multiple 5000lb bomb hits. Its a lot easier to do that for Saab2000 than a huge IL76. expect a couple in Karachi to take advantage of its tough defences and for seaward defence/monitoring the major IAF bases in jamnagar/pune and fws bases in nalia/bhuj as well as directing PAF attacks along the gujarat coast.

this gives them a secure hiding place if IAF heavily attacks the main bases in the east and/or PAF loses air control over the eastern belt.

'preservation of national assets' is a top item on the agenda.

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Postby JTull » 23 Feb 2007 19:49

Can anyone post a link that adequately compares Bars to Irbis?

thanks

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Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2007 23:48

Radar

The forward facing NIIP NO11M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned phased array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.

Features:

* The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneusly while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features.
* For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. A MiG-21, for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140–160 km.
* The radar can track 20 air targets and process engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously and attack 4 most dangerous simultaneously[3] These targets include from cruise missiles to even motionless helicopters.

* Irkuts press release on the Su-30 MKI Mk3.
* The Su-30MKI can function as a 'mini-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least 4 other aircraft.
* The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40- 50 km.
* The N011M is claimed to detect large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and small sized ones at a distance of 120 km.

When integrated with the Brahmos Missile, the Su-30MKI could become a formidable anti-shipping platform.

Future upgrades:

* Future upgrade plans include new gimbals for the antenna mount to increase the field of view to about 90-100 degrees to both sides. New software will enable a Doppler-sharpening mode and the capability to engage up to eight air targets simultaneously.
* By 2010, when the first totally-built Su-30MKI will roll out from HAL, it could be equipped with a new phased array radar called the Irbis (Snow Leopard), which will replace the N011M Bars. These reports are yet to be confirmed by the Indian Air Force or official sources. The Irbis has been widely misreported to be an active phased array. It is not. NIIP in Vzlet, 2006 (a journal edited by noted aviation journalist A. Fomin) details the Irbis as a high power Passive electronically scanned array, built using the experience of the Bars project. However, it will have a lighter antenna derived from the NIIP Osa (Wasp) radar, new servos to rotate the antenna in both axes, with a greater field of regard (adding up to a total of 100 degrees), and an entirely new architecture with dual travelling wave tubes, giving a range of 400 km against a 3 meter square target (RCS). Using new high speed computers, the Irbis will be able to track 30 targets and engage 8. It will also be KS-172 capable.

http://www.answers.com/topic/su-30mki

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Feb 2007 01:22

Singha wrote:Quetta or western baluchistan like Dalbandin will be given extra infra as main bases for Ereyie one expects, including underground hangers capable of soaking up multiple 5000lb bomb hits. Its a lot easier to do that for Saab2000 than a huge IL76. expect a couple in Karachi to take advantage of its tough defences and for seaward defence/monitoring the major IAF bases in jamnagar/pune and fws bases in nalia/bhuj as well as directing PAF attacks along the gujarat coast.

this gives them a secure hiding place if IAF heavily attacks the main bases in the east and/or PAF loses air control over the eastern belt.

'preservation of national assets' is a top item on the agenda.

That is pretty good as far as India is concerned. Pakistan has the choice to put bangles on Ereyie, cover it up with Burr-Kaa & keep in a tight dark musharraf. More Ereyie's the better.

Ereyie in the air is our concern and air dominance Rambha with extra long range BVR will tear up any esctors protecting it, before dispatching Ereyie to 72 stud Houries in Hell.

I will not be surprised to see IAF funding DRDO for extra long range AWAC killer ram-jet missile. Given that the target is a transport aircraft a modified BrahMos with 300Km range will be attractive.

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Postby ShauryaT » 24 Feb 2007 01:26

Given that the target is a transport aircraft a modified BrahMos with 300Km range will be attractive.

Is it feasible to modify a Brahmos to an A2A or G2A role?

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Postby SaiK » 24 Feb 2007 01:37

since we are planning to put brahmos on iluysin aircrafts and make it long range bombers as well, we should think about irbis kind of FCR. i hope we could install AESA radars on these ac/s as well.. perhaps with 5000 t/r modules! :twisted:

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Postby mandrake » 24 Feb 2007 01:43

SaiK wrote:since we are planning to put brahmos on iluysin aircrafts and make it long range bombers as well, we should think about irbis kind of FCR. i hope we could install AESA radars on these ac/s as well.. perhaps with 5000 t/r modules! :twisted:


:roll:

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Postby SaiK » 24 Feb 2007 02:03

:shock:

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Postby Arun_S » 24 Feb 2007 20:40

LRDE has developed 8 T/R per module, that will go into new ELINT platform. Few patents were filed arising from development of 8 T/R modules.

I will post the photo of 2 channel version in the AI album later in couple of days.


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NO-11 bars

Postby rrao » 28 Feb 2007 21:59

i was hoping against hope that at least IRBIS will be an AESA and not a PESA. As i undrstand that the servo bandwidth of the azimuth gimbal is higher in IRBIS ,making it to steer the azimuth much faster compared to BARS. but one thing remains the same...one needs either bulldozers or elephants to physically handle the radars. massive chunks of Junk. :roll:
flying locomotives!

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Re: NO-11 bars

Postby krishnan » 01 Mar 2007 11:03

rrao wrote:massive chunks of Junk.


What do you known abt IRBIS or radars to make that statement?

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Re: NO-11 bars

Postby rrao » 01 Mar 2007 19:48

krishnan,as much as u know! :shock:

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Postby Austin » 01 Mar 2007 19:55

I personally have doubts if the IAF is interested in another PESA or lets says improved PESA to replace the BARS too soon and too fast. When there is so much left of BARS

The IRBIS seems to have been developed for the new Su-35 that russians wants to promote in the export market , and perhaps even for the Su-34.

The chinkis would be excited with the idea of having the IRBIS for them

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EADS : Next Gen Air Defense Radar

Postby JaiS » 02 Mar 2007 09:42

Core electronics for next-generation air defense radar on the way

EADS Defense & Security Systems will provide the tri-national Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) with advanced electronics components that they say makes the system's fire control radar the most powerful radar worldwide.

EADS Defense & Security Systems will provide the tri-national Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS) with advanced electronics components that they say makes the system's fire control radar the most powerful radar worldwide.

Under a contract worth approximately 120 million Euros, EADS Defense Electronics (DE) will develop and produce more than 40,000 transmit/receive (T/R) modules and related work packages to be delivered during the design and development phase up through 2009.

EADS operates a dedicated RF chip production foundry and has built up an automated cleanroom production facility at its Ulm site -- the so-called MicroWaveFactory -- that makes it a major partner in the most important AESA programs. EADS DE is participating in the fighter radar CAESAR, the space program TerraSAR, the NATO surveillance radar TCAR and the German ground surveillance program BUR. EADS is using the SMTR standard T/R module for all applications operating in the X band that have to undergo only limited modification for the respective application.

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Postby maitya » 02 Mar 2007 16:05

maitya wrote:Reg Zhuk-MAE, all these fantastic claim about +/- 60 deg scan angle being achieved etc ... are there any independent verifiable proof of that being achieved. I mean they tried will non-linear distn approach, but gave up on it due to the complexities involved. I'd still wait for scan-range and track-range figures for > 45deg scan-angle.

What say Dileep?

From the Phazatron Mag docs posted by rakall, some interesting tidbits:
The aperture efficiency drop is proportional to the cosine of the off-bore sight angle

So, per my back-of-the-hand calc, at 45deg the efficiency is 70%, dropping off to 50% at 60deg. So, for all other parameters remaining same, the detection/track angle should reduce to around 50% of the corresponding figures quoted for straight ahead target – thus Zhuk-AE will have around 65km detection range at 60deg off boresight. :P :P

The electronic scanning sector can be also be broadened if the array is curved …

Wonder what's preventing them from doing so ... too complicated, I guess!!

Also, Dileep, it says that angular resolution loss becomes non-linear beyond 60deg - but even when this loss is linear, it can be corrected by "software technique" - what is this technique, he's talking about!! :?:
Adaptive Beamforming techniques, I guess ...

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Postby SaiK » 03 Mar 2007 02:20

SaiK wrote:
Poll: Most Czechs oppose hosting U.S. radar
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/ ... chh070302/

Russia is strongly opposed to the plan, and warned that Poland and the Czech Republic risked being targeted by Russian missiles if they agreed to host the U.S. bases.

Unlike anti-aircraft systems, anti-missile radars have very narrow beams that cannot be used to monitor large swaths of air space, as over Russia. But they have high resolution and very long ranges, allowing them to follow objects the size of a baseball at distances of up to nearly 2,000 miles

2K miles detecting baseballs, ~~~~WOW~~~~ perhaps we should take this to radar thread.


what would be this radar!!??

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Postby Dileep » 03 Mar 2007 04:39

The radiation efficiency is not EXACTLY a cosine function. That will be true only for uniform emitters. The antenna on the modules itself have a non uniform pattern off boresight, so the actual relationship will be different. I once tried to figure out if this could be analysed independently, ie take pattern of an ideal array, and then scaling it with the pattern of an actual element. Had a brain-freeze and left it there.

Software can compensate the beam problems to some extent. Even simple things like monopulse tracking is done by software extrapolation in ESAs. Not only the power changes as the angle changes. The beam width also changes. So, the software need to be aware of those to correctly interpret the returns.

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Postby rakall » 05 Mar 2007 10:48

maitya wrote:
The electronic scanning sector can be also be broadened if the array is curved …

Wonder what's preventing them from doing so ... too complicated, I guess!!


...


the only thing that is stopping them doing that is "time".. they want to deliver a "furst gen" AESA radar as soon as possible to compete..

the phazatron mag cearly states that most of the stuff besides the radar is fixed-up using the existing stuff on Zhuk-ME.. clearly there is a lot of scope for improvement -- interms of weight reduction, processing power, range increase as also range incrase keeping the same antenna dia (i.e. whe their T/R module tech matures further to accomodate more T/R modules in same antenna dia)... but this is strictly a first-cut attempt.

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Postby Marcos » 05 Mar 2007 21:32

joey wrote:Since i'm using GPRS cannot access Rapidshare as it says a ip downloading.
Jcage can you kindly drop some of these brochurec if you have downloaded em in my email?

regards,

Joey,

where is the file that u mentioned???.....atleast u must have passed on the same to someone who believes in sharing with others rather than the Western way of thought - which holds on to something untill & unless the home side gets to know abt it. We have seen this a lot of this in the case of India. :evil:

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Postby Sumeet » 06 Mar 2007 00:14

anyone has a better picture of BEL's Link-2. Arun_S picture has a glare that prevents me from reading the description properly.

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/ma ... emId=10377

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Postby JaiS » 07 Mar 2007 10:22


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Postby SaiK » 11 Mar 2007 06:05


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APG-79 : Pros and Cons

Postby JaiS » 13 Mar 2007 11:33

X-Post from MRCA thread

Super Hornet Radar Not Ready For Combat


NAS PATUXENT RIVER, Md. - An operational evaluation of the Super Hornet's new radar says it is "not effective and not suitable for combat operations," but it praised the design as a "quantum leap" in air-to-air capability.

Navy officials say it will be fine-tuned for war in time for the first operational deployment in 2008.

The analysis was based on tests of older software (tape H-3) last summer. It says the Raytheon-built APG-79 radar "is effective and is suitable for training purposes," according to Capt. Donald Gaddis, F/A-18E/F program manager. It is in service with the Navy's first Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar-equipped Super Hornet squadron, VFA-213, based at Naval Air Station (NAS) Oceana, Va.

Senior Navy officials say the radar is using a new software tape (H-4E for E/F model F/A-18s) for flight-testing.


'More work to do'

Problems identified by the report include aircrew complaints that the air combat maneuvering modes were slow to lock onto targets. It took seconds instead of the split seconds that they wanted. There also were and continue to be problems with built-in tests that verify and detect hardware faults. So far there have been 23 software fixes.

"We have more work to do," Gaddis says. But, "there are no surprises in the report. The deficiencies that they write about, we knew about at the readiness review in June. In July we were already coding new software to correct those deficiencies. The corrected software has been in flight-test since December 2006."


The same report contends the radar has demonstrated a "quantum leap against significant tactical air threats," a reference to classified details about range, resolution, electronic attack options and the ability to positively identify targets - by fusing information from various sensors - at long range.

"There are some AESA electronic attack [capabilities] already in the radar, and it will be tested this summer when we do our [test and evaluation] for our first deployment," Gaddis says. "We have a robust, funded road map that's going to spiral into more electronic attack capability. We're going to tie it together with our radar warning receiver and ALQ-214 defensive electronic attack system."

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Postby Dileep » 13 Mar 2007 22:36

Hmm.. Seconds to lock on!! I should review the archives for all the complaints about the ruskies and even the MMR now.

when are we going to see something similar for the magic bullet/god's eye APG-77?

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New modes for APG-79 followon

Postby JaiS » 14 Mar 2007 04:21

Super Hornet seeks clear skies in future fighter debate

New air-to-surface modes are under evaluation. Image correlation targeting blends active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar or Raytheon ASQ-228 Advanced Targeting Forward Looking InfraRed (ATFLIR) target tracks with a terrain database and precise geolocation to generate a vertical 'God's eye view' image in the cockpit, allowing the pilot or weapon system operator to designate targets more accurately.

Precision strike against multiple moving targets is another goal. Both the radar and ATFLIR are expected to be capable of tracking multiple moving surface targets by 2010, and the Super Hornet has performed an experimental release of a modified 450 kg Joint Direct Attack Munition fitted with a datalink against a moving target at China Lake, resulting in a "very near direct hit" according to a Boeing official.

The key issue is whether a one-way data¬link allowing a GPS-guided weapon to receive updated target location information in flight will provide enough accuracy to hit a moving target without adding an endgame seeker to the weapon.



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Postby arun » 19 Mar 2007 21:26

X Post of radar relevant bit of Shyamd’s post :

Posted 03/19/07 17:26

MBDA To Help India Revive Quick-Reaction Missile

………. DRDO scientists here said that another DRDO agency, the Electronics & Radar Development Establishment, Bangalore, will develop two indigenous radars for the Maitri project. These would be new-generation variants of 3-D central acquisition radars, which can track 150 targets simultaneously at a distance of 200 kilometers. The naval variant would be called the Revati and the Air Force version would be called Rohini.

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Postby sunilUpa » 25 Mar 2007 19:34

X posting from Su-30 thread.

F-22 detection range by Su30MKI

Added later - Sorry guys, most of the figures on Su30MKI are taken from our friend Carlo Kops article, Su30 vs RAAF alternatives.

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Postby Gerard » 29 Mar 2007 06:13

IAF favours supply of air defence radars to Lanka
Government sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the Indira II radar, supplied by India and installed at the Katunayake airbase near Colombo, had been switched off at the time of the LTTE air attack at 0045 hours on March 26. The other Indira II radar has been deployed by Lankan forces in the eastern part of the country and had been pulled south this year.

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Postby MN Kumar » 29 Mar 2007 12:54

Is IE also getting into the influence of our beloved congressi babus. Its Indra and not Indira.

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Postby rakall » 29 Mar 2007 12:59

MN Kumar wrote:Is IE also getting into the influence of our beloved congressi babus. Its Indra and not Indira.


MNKumar

could you please post the full article from IDR which contains the pics of IAC, P17 & P28.. (scanned or photographed)

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Postby Arun_S » 31 Mar 2007 12:14

I know AeroIndia-07 is past, but I have put initial batch of 13 new brochures I have uploaded.

The first Installment of 13 brochures loaded today:

Aero India 2007>> Latest Images by Contributors >> Arun Vishwakarma

1. BrahMos
2. Hand-Held Thermal Imager BETI-0109
3. Indian Aviation Stamps - High Performance Aviation Lubricants
4. Center for Airborne Systems: set of 8 flyers
5. Transmit_recieve Module

More to follow later in 2 days.

Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 31 Mar 2007 21:30


Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Postby Arun_S » 01 Apr 2007 00:18

My last 13 brochures also uploaded:

http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/v/ ... Brochures/


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