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Radar - Specs & Discussions

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Kersi D
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 03 Jul 2015 11:06

Eric Leiderman wrote:Hi Kersi

Band freq wave length in cm Applications
L Band , 1–2 GHz, 15 – 30 Air traffic control etc

S Band 2 – 4 GHz 15 – 7.5 cm Marine /radar, Satellite radio etc

X Band 8 - 12.0 GHz 3.75 – 2.5 cm Marine, aeronautical radars , comms etc

The reason for me tabulating above is TR cell size is half wave length
So fighter aircraft usually end up using X band because of smaller size, Better azimuth discrimination, smaller wave beam spread etc
Larger fighter aircraft could use the S band with the corrosponding size of TR cells eg Planned FGFA

Within these bands different users will have sub bands eg marine radars, aeronautical radars, satellite comms etc.

To prevent jamming the different industries stick within their sub bands

The TR cell will be tuned for max efficiency within this sub band.

Sort of a bell curve.

However in wartime AESA will frequency hop all over this band using maratime/commercial bandwidth

All of the above is not 100% accurate, however from an understanding point of view this is the funda


SHUKRIYA SHUKRIYA SHUKRIYA

What about K, Ka and Ku band ? They are also used on aircraft.

Can a AESA radar opearte on L band, S band and X band simultaneously ?

I understand that one requires a physically large antenna, about few m length, for L and S band. (Example THD 1955, DW 04 etc). So how can an aircraft radar say 1 m in diameter work in L and S band.

I suppose that AESA can do search, track as well as missile guidance simultaneously ?

A googly (according to me) Can a AESA radar work as a SAR or a ISAR ?

Pl educate us by giving soem good websites to understand these radars

K

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 03 Jul 2015 11:54


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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Jul 2015 02:46

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 02072.html


Vijay Mohan

Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, July 3
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is setting up a base for operating airborne early warning and control aircraft at the Bhisiana Air Force Station near Bathinda.

The base will house indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AEW&CS) developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO’s Bengaluru-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) has developed three such systems that are mounted on the Brazilian Embraer ERJ 145 aircraft. Two of the aircraft would be based at Bhisiana while the third will remain positioned at the CABS for research and development, sources said.

Bhiasana will become the second IAF base to operate early warning aircraft after Agra, which is a home to the A-50 AWACS, which are Israeli Phalcon systems integrated with a modified Russian IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft. The IAF operates three A-50s and another two are expected next year.

Technical support and maintenance facilities are being set up at Bhisiana to cater to AEW&CS operations, for which appropriate sites are being identified. The CABS was headed by the recently appointed Director General, DRDO, Dr S Christopher. Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had commanded the Bhisiana airbase as a Group Captain in the early 2000s.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Jul 2015 02:47

http://businesstoday.intoday.in/story/e ... 21084.html

The commissioning of the indigenously developed Multi-Object Tracking Radar (MOTR) in March this year was a proud moment for India. Built by the Satish Dhawan Space Centre, the rocket launch facility of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) in Sriharikota, this radar can track multiple objects in space simultaneously, unlike conventional radars, which track just one at a time. Only a few other countries - the US, Japan, Israel and some European ones - possess this technology. What is not widely known is that much of the hardware for the MOTR was provided by a 24-year-old Hyderabad-based company, Astra Microwave Products, which specialises in components for radars. "Much of our business today is manufacturing subsystems that go into the making of 'phased array radars', or 'active array radars'," says B Malla Reddy, Managing Director of the company and one of its three founders.

GROWTH DRIVERS:
Niche business opportunities in defence and space sectors
CORE STRENGTHS:
Growing subsystems sales; supplier to companies making radars
FUTURE PLANS:
To make complete systems, JVs to make communication equipment for defence
CHALLENGES:
Likely diminishing role of the offset policy with the government's focus on "Make in India"
GOAL:
Rs 1,000 crore revenue in the next three to four years
Earlier, Astra Microwave had also supplied microwave components for the remote sensing satellite RISAT that ISRO built in 2011. (RISAT stands for remote imaging satellite.) "Our experience with Astra has been excellent," says a senior ISRO official, unwilling to be identified. "What stands out about Astra is its focus on quality and readiness to track performance after sales. It ensures the customer is satisfied at each stage."

REVENUE:
Rs 551.78 crore
NET PROFIT:
Rs 50.88 crore
THREE-YEAR CAGR:
49.16%
THREE-YEAR AVERAGE TOPLINE GROWTH:
56.30%

Astra's business was always manufacturing components and subsystems for microwave wireless communication, but the nature and scope of its work have changed. Until 10 years ago - its revenue then was around Rs 65 crore against Rs 634.34 crore in 2014/15 - a sizeable portion of its business came from the telecom sector, both government and private makers of wireless communication equipment. But many of the latter could not survive the cellular revolution, leading Astra to shift focus to space and defence. "The share of defence in our India revenue is about 70 per cent, while space would be 20 per cent," says Malla Reddy. "The remaining 10 per cent comes from miscellaneous sources, mainly weather data collection platforms or meteorology products."

In defence, apart from radars, Astra provides components and subsystems for missiles, electronic warfare or electronic counter measures. Its main local clients are Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) for radars and electronic warfare equipment, and Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) for missiles. Both BEL and BDL work with specifications developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratories, which are shared with the private manufacturers they award contracts to. How severe is the competition? Though there are giants such as the Tatas, Mahindras and Larsen & Toubro in defence production, none operates in the niche area that Astra does. "Usually there are between three and 10 companies competing with us for a tender, but most of the others are either very small or companies in digital electronics eyeing the microwave field," says Malla Reddy. He adds that, in recent times, BEL has been competing with Astra in most tenders.

FASTEST GROWING EMERGING COMPANIES 2015: Eicher Motors | Serum institute of India | Kwality | Avanti Feeds | Kaveri Seeds | PVR | IL&FS Education | Shilpi Cables
But an equally big share of Astra's revenue has lately come from exports. Revenue has shot up in the last two years - it was Rs 243.97 crore in 2012/13 and Rs 551.78 crore in 2013/14. "Exports have contributed over 50 per cent of our top line during this period," says Malla Reddy. "This is mainly due to the offset policy India has implemented in defence for the past five years." The offset policy requires overseas suppliers, which have won defence contracts in India above Rs 300 crore, to source 30 per cent of the order value from Indian manufacturers. "The components Indian companies provide get integrated into the equipment that the foreign company is supplying to India," adds Malla Reddy. Astra mainly supplies to an Israeli firm based on the designs shared by the company.

The use of offset policy, however, may get diminished over time with the Narendra Modi government's emphasis on "Make in India". "Revenue from exports will fall to around 25 per cent of the total this year as orders are getting completed and the government's focus is on indigenous manufacture instead of imports," says Malla Reddy. "Instead of offsets, there could be joint ventures in India. New orders are not coming because the situation is fluid." He is prepared for an overall revenue drop to around Rs 450 crore this year, but with policy clarity coming, expects it to climb back in 2016/17. "Indian companies will not be affected in the long term as they are all backend suppliers," he says. Instead of exporting components and subsystems, companies like Astra will be supplying to the local JVs that foreign players set up.

FULL COVERAGE: India's Emerging Companies 2015

Industry insiders agree that opportunities can only grow with the new thrust. The increase in the foreign direct investment limit to 49 per cent in the defence sector is bound to make India more attractive as a manufacturing centre for global majors. "There will be an impetus to bring in new technology," says G.K. Pillai, CEO and MD of Walchandnagar Industries, which focuses on defence, aerospace and nuclear power. "The total defence market in this region would be around Rs 1 lakh crore a year, of which 70 to 80 per cent is imported. If local manufacturing lowers imports to around 50 per cent, it means a Rs 25,000 crore to Rs 30,000 crore per year market opening up."

Astra is also looking at new areas of growth. Last year, it opened a systems R&D centre in Bangalore. "We have been a subsystems company so far, but the centre indicates our new focus on making the complete radar," says Malla Reddy. "One of our subsystems is the 'transmit-receive' module for which we imported semiconductor devices from the US. But now we have been making these devices ourselves. There is a global market for them. To exploit this, we have set up a 100 per cent subsidiary in Singapore. The Singapore-Malaysia-Taiwan belt is an important hub for semiconductor manufacture and distribution." Astra is also setting up a JV with 51 per cent stake to make communications equipment for defence. Malla Reddy maintains it will be distinct from radar, but is tightlipped about details. He has shareholder approval to raise Rs 170 crore to fund the new ventures.

Astra Microwave employs around 1,000 people, 250 of whom are in R&D. "Getting people with sufficient experience in our niche area is the biggest challenge," says Malla Reddy. "There aren't readily available and new entrants in the field keep taking away our people. Mostly, we recruit fresh graduates in electronics and train them. We also tap people from ISRO or DRDO, sometimes even retired personnel." Still, Astra Microwave has been managing all right. "The good thing about the company is that it is driven by technocrats with long years of experience and a clean track record," says Srini Raju, whose family owned company Skanda Aerospace held a 10 per cent stake in Astra from 2011 to 2014, exiting with a 2X return. "It now needs to focus on building the next line of leadership and diversifying its global customer base."

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Jul 2015 05:21

Is Bhisiana a bit. Lose to the tsp border for setting up expensive aew platfr there? Wouldn't Gwalior be a. Etter candidate?

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby tushar_m » 13 Jul 2015 18:56

Indian EMB-145 AEW&C aircraft spotted in Algeria for the second time :?: :?: :?: :?:

Secret negotiations. ????

Image

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby srin » 13 Jul 2015 19:18

I think this may be the third one on ferry flight from Brazil. I recall vaguely (but couldn't find the link) that two are delivered and third is expected. The pic is too blurry to see the tail number.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 22 Jul 2015 13:25

Kersi D wrote:I understand that one requires a physically large antenna, about few m length, for L and S band. (Example THD 1955, DW 04 etc). So how can an aircraft radar say 1 m in diameter work in L and S band.

I suppose that AESA can do search, track as well as missile guidance simultaneously ?

A googly (according to me) Can a AESA radar work as a SAR or a ISAR ?

Pl educate us by giving soem good websites to understand these radars

K


Hello Kersiji,

Long time no see... primarily because I was AWOL for the past few years.

I guess I could answer your SAR related question (thats my current area of research)....

In general, an AESA radar (or even any array radar) is not useful for SAR. In fact, and this is the most interesting aspect of Synthetic Aperture Radars - unlike in the usual array-based radars, where we want the SMALLEST beamwidth possible in order to get the best resolution, SAR, requires the WIDEST beam possible.

What? How? What do you mean, you ask...

Well, simpull explanation wonlee (or not, considering I took a month to understand it)....

You see, a SAR works by artificially creating a large aperture, so that the effective resolution is really really sharp. How this works is, to put it in very very rough (and inaccurate) terms, its like stitching up many overlapping images together. and because they overlap, if they are coherently added up together, the image is more accurate than each individual component. (The technical reasoning for this is a bit involved, especially when talking about chirp waveforms, but for now, I guess this is a reasonably rough explanation)

So, the more the number of overlapping images we have, the better the accuracy we get. Now, we get these images as the aircraft flies along the flight path, at regular intervals. If we have a narrow beam, then the field of view (called the Ground Scene) is quite tiny, and moreover, is not going to overlap a lot.

Think of this as a circular torch beam on the ground, which is moving in a line, and we switch it on and off at regular intervals as we move. If the torch beam is small, then each interval we move, we light up an entirely different part of the ground. On the other hand, if we had a really wide angle torch beam, we will be able to illuminate a particular part of the ground for much longer time / number of on-off intervals (the on-off intervals are the radar pulses, and this longer time is called dwell - typically quantified as angular dwell, in terms of view angles that the radar takes - best case scenario is when our radar always has that point looked at, ie, an angular dwell of 360 degrees, or 180 degrees - I still get confused about which of the two it is)

So, if we want a LOT of overlapping images to get a higher resolution, we want to have a large number of overlapping pulses. Thus, we need AS WIDE A BEAM as possible. The resolution limit is approximately given as

resolution = antenna size / 4

whereas a real-aperture radar (AESAs etc) have

resolution ~ r x lambda / antenna size

(~ - proportional to)


So, to answer your question -

can an AESA do SAR or ISAR?

ABSOLUTELY.... this link for example.

How this will probably work is to use what is known as "spotlight" mode SAR. This mode does away with the problem of a fixed, non-steerable beam that was assumed in my explanation above (that mode was the earliest SAR mode, called "Stripmap mode" SAR). Instead, it increases dwell time on the ground scene through electronic beam steering. Which is something that the AESA radar is pretty good at. So what we'd need to do is to keep a few beams from the AESA targetted constantly at the ground point, and make sure we're constantly focussing on it.

Its quite tricky though, and far more difficult than it seems. Firstly, the waveforms need to be coherent, and we need to have an unbelievably accurate phase history, else they'll destructively interfere. What this means is that we need to know PRECISELY how long the waveform took to travel to the ground point and back. because thats how we identify which ground point it is. So every little motion and environmental artifact needs to be compensated precisely - roll, pitch, atmospheric effect, even tiny changes in speed and heading. Everything.

Secondly, the tracking and beamsteering will need to be seamless and extremely precise.

The major limitation that an AESA radar will have when compared to a dedicated SAR radar is that because its a multirole radar, the ground scene we're imaging is going to be quite small, even if we use multiple beams in a cellphone cell type grid fashion. Doing that could also have the problem of overlapping sidelobes causing phase history errors. So I'd imagine that the AESA wont be able to image a large swath of ground very well, but will be able to image a small area, but pretty accurately.

Oh and also, SAR imaging is insanely computation heavy. Which is why high accuracy SAR processing is usually done offline, at ground stations, because they have the big heavy computers to do the crunching. Its unlikely that a fighter platform can afford to lug along that amount of computation power within its airframe.

Hope the explanation helped.


Edit: The RBE-2 description says High resolution imagery modes (SAR) - Designations under the Strike mission heading. This suggests the limitation I mentioned, in that the high-resolution SAR mode will be mostly useful to identify the specific target in a small area of ground identified from other modes, to improve the accuracy of munitions delivery.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jul 2015 02:41

k prasad,

SAR is more useful for imaging/mapping of fixed targets and remote sensing. Conventional radar is for the purposes of detecting reflectivity and velocity. That is for tracking fast moving aircraft and missiles. Having a narrow beam width allows for more power density on target, thereby having more power reflected back. If one can go longer wavelengths, within an antenna design limitation, there is a better chance of detecting the target.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 23 Jul 2015 07:20

Mort Walker... you are indeed correct on that count. Our posts don't contradict each other at all :-) .

My post was in response to Kersi's question about whether AESA Radars could do SAR mapping as well, and this is indeed the case, as we see with the push for hi-res ground mapping modes in airborne fighter radars. And as I pointed, the SAR modes in these fighters would be very limited when compared to dedicated SARs.

Btw, in SAR, the longer the wavelength, the asymptotic resolution achievable is worse, because even if we have a very very small antenna size, we hit the diffraction limit of lambda/4.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jul 2015 22:40

k prasad,

AESA radars can do SAR, when needed for additional surveillance. Ideally, you would use SAR on a large surveillance aircraft and satellites to make your detailed maps. These maps would then be very useful for generating high-resolution (<1 m) moving clutter maps that AWACS and fighters need. A high power radar can be rendered useless if there is high clutter. Being able to suppress clutter greater than 60 dB, you can distinguish many targets particularly low and slow flying ones.

If I was designing a fighter aircraft AESA, SAR would not be a priority, rather I would save the radar computer processing power to do analysis on target recognition in real time. Real time in this instance would be the time it takes to transmit and receive a single pulse in the minimum detection range. 12 us = 1 nmi.

Yes, there are diffraction limitations for a given frequency and antenna size.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 24 Jul 2015 01:23

Haha.... Mort, we're both saying the exact same thing :-). Or do you disagree wiht me on some point (because I'm not clear on which point that is, if it is indeed a difference of views).

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Jul 2015 01:39

No difference of views. I just used different words. There is a place for SAR on fighter aircraft, but it is limited.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 24 Jul 2015 02:24

Exactly right!!

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 24 Jul 2015 21:38

k prasad wrote:
Kersi D wrote:I understand that one requires a physically large antenna, about few m length, for L and S band. (Example THD 1955, DW 04 etc). So how can an aircraft radar say 1 m in diameter work in L and S band.

I suppose that AESA can do search, track as well as missile guidance simultaneously ?

A googly (according to me) Can a AESA radar work as a SAR or a ISAR ?

Pl educate us by giving soem good websites to understand these radars

K


Hello Kersiji,

Long time no see... primarily because I was AWOL for the past few years.

I guess I could answer your SAR related question (thats my current area of research)....

In general, an AESA radar (or even any array radar) is not useful for SAR. In fact, and this is the most interesting aspect of Synthetic Aperture Radars - unlike in the usual array-based radars, where we want the SMALLEST beamwidth possible in order to get the best resolution, SAR, requires the WIDEST beam possible.

What? How? What do you mean, you ask...

Well, simpull explanation wonlee (or not, considering I took a month to understand it)....

You see, a SAR works by artificially creating a large aperture, so that the effective resolution is really really sharp. How this works is, to put it in very very rough (and inaccurate) terms, its like stitching up many overlapping images together. and because they overlap, if they are coherently added up together, the image is more accurate than each individual component. (The technical reasoning for this is a bit involved, especially when talking about chirp waveforms, but for now, I guess this is a reasonably rough explanation)

So, the more the number of overlapping images we have, the better the accuracy we get. Now, we get these images as the aircraft flies along the flight path, at regular intervals. If we have a narrow beam, then the field of view (called the Ground Scene) is quite tiny, and moreover, is not going to overlap a lot.

Think of this as a circular torch beam on the ground, which is moving in a line, and we switch it on and off at regular intervals as we move. If the torch beam is small, then each interval we move, we light up an entirely different part of the ground. On the other hand, if we had a really wide angle torch beam, we will be able to illuminate a particular part of the ground for much longer time / number of on-off intervals (the on-off intervals are the radar pulses, and this longer time is called dwell - typically quantified as angular dwell, in terms of view angles that the radar takes - best case scenario is when our radar always has that point looked at, ie, an angular dwell of 360 degrees, or 180 degrees - I still get confused about which of the two it is)

So, if we want a LOT of overlapping images to get a higher resolution, we want to have a large number of overlapping pulses. Thus, we need AS WIDE A BEAM as possible. The resolution limit is approximately given as

resolution = antenna size / 4

whereas a real-aperture radar (AESAs etc) have

resolution ~ r x lambda / antenna size

(~ - proportional to)


So, to answer your question -

can an AESA do SAR or ISAR?

ABSOLUTELY.... this link for example.

How this will probably work is to use what is known as "spotlight" mode SAR. This mode does away with the problem of a fixed, non-steerable beam that was assumed in my explanation above (that mode was the earliest SAR mode, called "Stripmap mode" SAR). Instead, it increases dwell time on the ground scene through electronic beam steering. Which is something that the AESA radar is pretty good at. So what we'd need to do is to keep a few beams from the AESA targetted constantly at the ground point, and make sure we're constantly focussing on it.

Its quite tricky though, and far more difficult than it seems. Firstly, the waveforms need to be coherent, and we need to have an unbelievably accurate phase history, else they'll destructively interfere. What this means is that we need to know PRECISELY how long the waveform took to travel to the ground point and back. because thats how we identify which ground point it is. So every little motion and environmental artifact needs to be compensated precisely - roll, pitch, atmospheric effect, even tiny changes in speed and heading. Everything.

Secondly, the tracking and beamsteering will need to be seamless and extremely precise.

The major limitation that an AESA radar will have when compared to a dedicated SAR radar is that because its a multirole radar, the ground scene we're imaging is going to be quite small, even if we use multiple beams in a cellphone cell type grid fashion. Doing that could also have the problem of overlapping sidelobes causing phase history errors. So I'd imagine that the AESA wont be able to image a large swath of ground very well, but will be able to image a small area, but pretty accurately.

Oh and also, SAR imaging is insanely computation heavy. Which is why high accuracy SAR processing is usually done offline, at ground stations, because they have the big heavy computers to do the crunching. Its unlikely that a fighter platform can afford to lug along that amount of computation power within its airframe.

Hope the explanation helped.


Edit: The RBE-2 description says High resolution imagery modes (SAR) - Designations under the Strike mission heading. This suggests the limitation I mentioned, in that the high-resolution SAR mode will be mostly useful to identify the specific target in a small area of ground identified from other modes, to improve the accuracy of munitions delivery.


THANKS

It will take me a few weeks to understand your explanation !!!

:D :D :D

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 24 Jul 2015 22:34

THANKS

It will take me a few weeks to understand your explanation !!!

:D :D :D


If so, you're doing far better than me sirjee .... i'm yet to understand it properly, even after months :-).

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Jul 2015 23:59

^^^At least you understood it in months, for some us it takes decades and we still don't understand it all. :D

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby k prasad » 25 Jul 2015 05:49

Aah, but this is the thing right... you know enough to know what you don't know. I THINK I know, but I might not know at all. So your knowledge is going to be much better :-).

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Ashokk » 13 Sep 2015 13:57

Zhuk-ME radars for the Mig-29 KUB of the Indian Navy being tested at NIIP Phazotron.
Image
More photos here

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Vipul » 24 Sep 2015 05:22

Nod for Rs 8,000 crore Air Force radar system.

The Cabinet Committee on Security, apart from the $3 billion purchase of Apache and Chinook helicopters from the US, on Tuesday also cleared an almost Rs 8,000 crore project for extension of the IAF's fully-automated air surveillance and defence network to the entire country.

The IAF has already established five nodes of the IACCS (integrated air command and control system) in the western sector facing Pakistan at Barnala (Punjab), Wadsar (Gujarat), Aya Nagar (Delhi), Jodhpur (Rajasthan) and Ambala (Haryana) with help from defence PSU Bharat Electronics.

Now, as was first reported by TOI, four new major nodes and 10 sub-nodes will come up under Phase-II of the IACCS. While three nodes will be in eastern, central and southern India, the fourth is meant for the strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar Islands archipelago.

By progressive integration of all airborne and ground-based civilian and military radars around the country, the aim is to ensure any intrusion by a hostile aircraft, helicopter, drone or micro-light can be detected and tackled as soon as it takes place. "The composite air picture will be available in real-time at centralised locations and the national command post," said a source.

Some of the new nodes will be located in underground complexes to improve survivability in face of enemy attacks, even as the entire IACCS infrastructure is also being upgraded with advanced early-warning, jam-resistant radars and the like.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby rohitvats » 24 Sep 2015 14:45

This means more EL/M - 2084 Arudhra radars have been received from Israel. I think this will complete the initial order from Israel for these radars. And rest in these class will come from DRDO. Good development. India has dramatically increased its radar coverage over the years.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2015 23:00

AESA for the LCA - mockup has the design details here:
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12953

Points to note:
1. AAAU - Active Array Unit
2. ERP - Exciter Receiver Processor
3. Power Supply Unit
4. Liquid Cooling System

See page 28.

shaun
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby shaun » 25 Sep 2015 09:52

was looking at the SIPRI data on EL/M-2083 APR , the break up is given below
Image
If we take the base price of each system to be $28.5 M from the last deal , than the first deal for 2 systems at $145 M seems too costly. For $145 M , we can get approx , 5 systems. So in 2002 if we have 05 nos , in 2008 04 nos and in 2009 02 Nos , it makes a grand total of 11 such systems and thus collaborating with the news http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation%20...%2036886.html, that as of date we already have 11 such systems

Now some old news :
May 14 2007 TNN
"India to acquire 4 more Aerostats to track air spies ....The four more Aerostat radars is a follow-on order to the successful deployment of the two EL/M-2083 Aerostat radars, inducted from Israel in 2004-2005, along the border in Kutch region and Punjab. In all, IAF has projected a requirement of 13 Aerostat radars, with each one capable of providing three-dimensional low-altitude coverage equal to 30-40 ground-based radars. Incidentally, Pakistan too is acquiring six Aerostat L-88 radar systems from the US in an estimated $155-million deal."http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-to-acquire-4-more-Aerostats-to-track-air-spies/articleshow/2041886.cms

From the above report , it seems the delivery date of first 02 nos EL/M 2083 is wrong as the same was already delivered by 2004-05 itself and i guess the rest 03 Nos, delivered by 2007-08. So taking this assumption , Total 05 nos were deployed from 2004 to 2008 .

NB:- If for coastal surveillance , they mount the radar in some other platform then the above calculation will totally go wrong as the $28.5 M figure includes both the Aerostat and radar.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby kit » 25 Sep 2015 17:13

now to extend that coverage to littoral indian ocean states :mrgreen: ..maldives is getting ready .. Sri lanka might not be needed one in Andaman and one in Lakshadweep can extend the coverage beyond it ..but an OTH radar in the Andamans would be the real strategic tool to cover the furthest reaches of the Indian ocean and ah !.. right into the South China sea :(( .. i guess that would track the entire Chinese naval movements in real time ..now that would be real cool :rotfl:

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby jayasimha » 03 Oct 2015 11:12

http://www.radarindia.com/

Welcome to
International Radar Symposium India 2015 (IRSI-15)
15-19 Dec 2015 at NIMHANS Convention Centre, Bangalore INDIA

The International Radar Symposium India 2015 (IRSI-15), the 10th in the series, being jointly organized by IEEE Bangalore Section, IET Bangalore Network, IETE Bangalore Centre and Society of Electronic Engineers (SEE), co-sponsored by Bharat Electronics (BEL), Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is scheduled for 15-19 Dec 2015. First IRSI was conducted in 1983 and was revived in 1999 as a biennial series.

The response and success of the previous events, which set several benchmarks, are remembered by all participants. IRSI has grown from strength to strength over the years and the current edition is poised to scale new heights with enhanced international participation. The large scale Radar India Exhibitions with provision for more than 100 exhibition stalls will be an added attraction. Live Demos are also being organised.

Important Dates

Final Acceptance Notification: 15 Oct '15
Presenting Author Registration: 30 Oct '15
Last Date to receive advertisements: 30 Nov '15
Tutorials: 15 & 16 Dec '15
Symposium: 17 to 19 Dec '15

IRSI-15 Schedule
15 Dec 2015
0930 Hrs to 1730 Hrs
Pre Symposium Tutorials 1 to 4
16 Dec 2015 0930 Hrs to 1730 Hrs
Pre Symposium Tutorials 5 to 8
16 Dec 2015 1400 Hrs to 2000 Hrs
Occupation of Exhibition Stalls
17 Dec 2015
0930 Hrs to 1100 Hrs Inaugural Function & Dr. RP Shenoy Memorial Lecture
1130 Hrs to 1300 Hrs Exhibition Visit
1400 Hrs to 1800 Hrs Plenary Session (6 Talks)
1900 Hrs to 2000 Hrs Cultural Programme
2000 Hrs to 2200 Hrs Symposium Dinner
18 Dec 2015 0930 Hrs to 1300 Hrs Technical Sessions & Plenary Talk (2 Talks)
1400-Hrs to 1800 Hrs Technical Sessions / Stall Visit
1900 Hrs to 2000 Hrs Sponsored Cultural programme
2000 Hrs to 2200 Hrs Sponsored Dinner
19 Dec 2015 0930 Hrs to 1200 Hrs Technical Sessions / Industry Presentations
1200 Hrs to 1300 Hrs Panel Discussion,
KU Limaye Memorial Best Paper Award Presentation,
Felicitation to Exhibitors
1400 Hrs to 1600 Hrs Technical Sessions
1600 Hrs to 1700 Hrs Valedictory

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby jayasimha » 03 Oct 2015 11:25

http://www.imarc-ieee.org/

IMaRC (International MW & RF Conference)

12/14/15 to 12/16/15
Hyderabad
India
The IEEE and MTT-S International Microwave and RF Conference (IMaRC) is the premier annual international gathering in India for technologists involved in all aspects of microwave theory and practice. The conference will take place in association with the International Symposium on Microwaves, held biennially in Bangalore since 2004. IMaRC2015 will have a full program including technical paper presentations, workshops, tutorials, and a range of social events. The symposium will also host a commercial exhibition.



What: Exhibition

When: Dec 14, 2015 08:00 AM to Dec 16, 2015 05:00 PM

Where: Hyderabad, India

http://www.imarc-ieee.org/

SaiK
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 Oct 2015 19:34


JTull
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby JTull » 01 Nov 2015 00:21

We just need someone sitting outside the fence and taking picture of everything that gets mounted on that to know what India has in the works. Why not build a big warehouse type shell around it?
Last edited by JTull on 01 Nov 2015 20:03, edited 1 time in total.

SaiK
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2015 06:32

the same i felt for building ADS and ATVs. we need to build in giant hangars.. it is not expensive.

but in this case, our instrumentation must be able to differentiate the radar return is from the target or the containing infrastructure walls. .. that could be expensive.. perhaps they might have to only cover the top for satellite imagery.

another easy solution, is keep it away from aam junta access or road access.. deep inside mil zone! whatever, the design of the target in question is the secret sauce and not the facility itself! ;)


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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby SaiK » 01 Nov 2015 18:36

point! there are ways to just build structures behind the target as 100% permeable!

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Nov 2015 06:50

SaiK wrote:the same i felt for building ADS and ATVs. we need to build in giant hangars.. it is not expensive.

but in this case, our instrumentation must be able to differentiate the radar return is from the target or the containing infrastructure walls. .. that could be expensive.. perhaps they might have to only cover the top for satellite imagery.

another easy solution, is keep it away from aam junta access or road access.. deep inside mil zone! whatever, the design of the target in question is the secret sauce and not the facility itself! ;)


We have some anechoic chambers in the country but the larger ones are not equipped with RCS measuring instrumentation.
There's one at CABS (35 x 18 x 18 meters), one at LRDE (20 x 16 x 6 meters). The facility at NAL for RCS measurements (10.5 x 7.3 x 3.1 meters) works for scale models only.



I disagree JTull. The information in public source is becoming pretty hard to come by, especially for the more active labs like RCI and ARDE.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby JTull » 02 Nov 2015 19:57

What do you disagree on? That the Orange facility should be inside a hangar?

Indranil
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Indranil » 02 Nov 2015 20:45

JTull, US has IIRC 3 such open ranges (lockheed's, raytheon's and Northrop's) where everything from the YF-22/YF-23/B-2/F-117 etc. were tested. And it is exactly the same pylon structure as seen in Orange. Again IIRC, the transmitters and/or the receivers are placed at runway lengths away for some measurements.

You just make the periphery large enough for people not to be able to see (like Area 51). Also saving it from prying eyes in the sky is not a particularly new problem either.

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You can read more here

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby brar_w » 02 Nov 2015 23:59

^ 6 outdoor contractor owned or operated RCS ranges have been located by Sean O Connor. Most of them have a well recorded history and some very interesting recent upgrade requests. Pretty much every military airframer in the US owns or operates a range in addition to the services (USAF and USN) and some radar providers (such as Raytheon). Sean has also given the location of 3 separate DOD owned ranges in his analysis.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Indranil » 03 Nov 2015 04:06

Thanks for the correction. So there you go, 9 not 3!

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby SaiK » 03 Nov 2015 04:22

^those ranges are one hundred % unkill infra! massive layouts based on airfield designs.. so that targets can land, get measured, and take off!

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby JTull » 05 Nov 2015 17:01

Hmm!

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby brar_w » 05 Nov 2015 20:27

SaiK wrote:^those ranges are one hundred % unkill infra! massive layouts based on airfield designs.. so that targets can land, get measured, and take off!


Most of the stuff that gets tested on these poles is not a 'flying test article'.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Postby Mort Walker » 05 Nov 2015 21:25

brar_w wrote:^ 6 outdoor contractor owned or operated RCS ranges have been located by Sean O Connor. Most of them have a well recorded history and some very interesting recent upgrade requests. Pretty much every military airframer in the US owns or operates a range in addition to the services (USAF and USN) and some radar providers (such as Raytheon). Sean has also given the location of 3 separate DOD owned ranges in his analysis.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html



There are many far field ranges owned by various companies, research organizations and USG entities, and several of these also serve EMP testing too. There are also many RF anechoic chambers to hold entire aircraft as well. Companies like NG and Raytheon own several by themselves across the US.


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