Radar - Specs & Discussions

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manjgu
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by manjgu »

should have been good to get some engineers who developed the radar for a similar discussion. Govt should encourage def exports with all kinds of incentives...
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by mody »

For Armenia, we can offer much more than just the Swathi radar. We can offer them the Sharang upgrade option for their old M46 guns (don't know how many they have, but being ex-soviet, I'm assuming they would be having these guns). At roughly US$ 1,25,000/- per gun for the upgrade, it is the cheapest option available in the world for a 155mm gun. We can offer them the Dhanush, hopefully 52 calibre version or the Kalyani Bharat-52 gun, we can offer them the 105mm ILFG. Armenia is mountainous and the main conflict area with Azerbaijan is also very mountainous. We can also offer the bi-modular charge and ammunition for all the guns.
Along with the Swathi radar, it would offer them a complete net-centric artillery system. The 105 mm ILFG is mule and helicopter portable, and with the latest bi-modular charge and ammunition, has range of over 20 Kms.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/jamie_aviacom/statu ... 92673?s=20 ----> Saab has revealed a new X-band AESA fighter radar that builds on its own PS-05/A family in the Gripen and leverages Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology - it's real and it was test flown in early April. The radar project is separate to the Leonardo Raven in the Gripen E.

https://twitter.com/AtulKr161711/status ... 36672?s=20 ---> Interesting thread — A new GaN-based X-band AESA airborne radar from Saab has been flight-tested on an old Gripen C/D. Uttam AESA is GaAs based (if I am not wrong), is there any plan to have GaN tech in upcoming airborne sensors?

https://twitter.com/nit_ayatana/status/ ... 59937?s=20 ---> There isn't a real advantage of using GaN in FCR. You are creating a expensive antenna and chances are the platform will not be able to provide the required power, which the antenna can handle. SSPL has created X band GaN TRM, so access is not an issue for us.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12541 ... 42145?s=20 ----> Any SSPL contact no?

https://twitter.com/AtulKr161711/status ... 96896?s=20 ----> It's Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL) under DRDO.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12539 ... 33861?s=20 ----> Yes. GaN is not yet easily accessible, but I believe it's round the corner. LRDE has done a lot of work on both techs. The transition will happen soon, I think.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 62273?s=20 ---> The 3D Air Surveillance Radar (3D ASR) is a ship-borne Pulse-Doppler L-band Radar for detection of air and surface targets in adverse sea clutter and electromagnetic environment with low false alarm rate. Developed by larsen and toubro in collaboration with ELTA Systems.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ThingNavy/status/12 ... 43264?s=20 ---> Central Acquisition Radar (3D-CAR) developed by DRDO on Project 28 corvettes.

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Karan M
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Karan M »

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1891392/
Indian Air Force (IAF) order for additional squadrons of surface-to-air missile system (SRSAM) Akash has been placed. The Indian Army is also in the process of procuring two more Akash regiments fitted with the indigenous seeker. Medium-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) is in an advanced stage of realization.
A number of variants of radars for different applications have been developed by DRDO for the Army like, ADFCR and ADTCR. Weapon Locating Radar SWATHI has already been deployed after inducted and is being exported now.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by jpremnath »

Knowledgeable folks of BRF, any news on the Foliage Penetrating radar? There was this old article 10 years back which said LRDE was working on one. Then we heard we are acquiring one from Israel.

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/86 ... -scan.html

"...As the government prepares its long-term plan to tackle the Naxals, researchers in the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) have started designing the critical equipment, which will give the security agencies an advantage during during anti-Naxal operations.

“The first trial is expected in two years,” R Kuloor, a senior scientist at the LRDE — one of the laboratories under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) — told Deccan Herald on Wednesday. The indigenous foliage-penetrating radar will have a range of 10-12 km and will be mounted on helicopters, possibly Dhruv advanced lightweight helicopters, to scan through a section of the jungle in search of anomalies...."
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Its still in development. Not cancelled.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 94465?s=20 ---> Future indigenous AESA radars for front line fighters of IAF.

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Aditya_V
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Aditya_V »

I hope we can get further orders of Su 30MKI with Uttam Aesa and suitable long range missile with twice the range of Aim 120C5 and revised ROE. PAF should have no fig leads to hide. Jihadis should know they cannot fodder within POK.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by rrao »

coverage will be limited to+/-60 deg in AZ because of fixed antenna array, Gimbaled antenna array will increase scan coverage as is in BARS.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by srai »

Is there a one for LCA Mk1/1A Uttam AESA TRM count?
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by jpremnath »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 94465?s=20 ---> Future indigenous AESA radars for front line fighters of IAF.
Big shout out to Kuntal Biswas for these lifelike renders...Having worked on making 3d renders, i can appreciate the amount of effort which went into making such detailed renderings. He is a treasure.!
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by ArjunPandit »

it might be very basic for experts..but thought of putting about differences between AESA and PESE

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... ltaneously
In a PESA Radar, there is a single main microwave frequency signal generating source. The same source signal is amplified, and then distributed and fed to each of the individual antenna, but the phase of the signal given to each antenna can be electronically varied. Therefore, by appropriately altering the phases of all the antenna elements, the radar can be made to 'point' in a particular direction (by making use of the constructive/destructive interference properties of waves).
The problem with these kinds of radar however, is since all the antenna are operating at a single frequency, it becomes much more easier of the enemy to detect and jam the radar beam. However, they are also much easier to build and operate.
Eg:- Radars used on the Su-30, and F-15A

In an AESA radar on the other hand, each milk carton sized antenna is capable of generating its own microwave signal, as well as altering its phase. Another difference is that, at any given time, each of the antenna may be operating at a different frequency! Also, an AESA antenna element may change its frequency of operation around 1000's of times per second. As a result, the radar beam now does not operate at a single frequency, but rather, is a very wide band signal. As the radar energy is now spread over a huge band, instead of a precise single frequency, the enemy thinks that this signal is simply background noise and ignores it. This is why such radars are called LPI (low probability of Intercept) radars, and are used in stealth fighter jets and ships. However, such radars are more costly, require much more power, and generate lots of heat, which in turn requires sophisticated cooling systems. They also required very complex signal processing to turn all the incoming radar reflections into meaningful data.

Eg:- Radars used on the F-22, F-35 etc
in PESA you can designate multiple targets by swiching the beam between them very fast, (so fast the target supposedly would move only a few inches after each contact, thus re-finding it shouldnt be a problem ) but for AESA, it enables the radar to actualy send several beams at the same time illuminating each target. It can even do that and operate in AG mode silmultaneously. Aditionaly, AESA technology enables the dish to act as a passive signal analyser and even ECM emmiter, you wont need to use dedicated pods under the wings, of course you still need rearward facing emmiters such as that mounted on one of the F-15's vertical fins. Theoreticaly its possible to reverse the beam through the canopy but that would harm the pilot. I have seen graphs showing radar coverage of about 270 degrees. But if you have more AESA arrays such as that in the wings and side panels of the ofthe F-22 (its actualy left out in the first batches for economy reasons) you would achieve nealy 360 degrees of coverage.

SOme of the current Generation of fighter would be probably find a hard time operating its radar if the oposition has an AESA array aimed at it.

F-22, F-16 Block 60, F-2, Rafale and Mig-35 use AESA.
Su-30MKI and Mig-31 use PESA.

Having said that AESA is not always Synonim of superiority. Su-30 and Mig-31 PESA Radar are much more powerfull than that of the Mig-35.
The Captor radar in the Typhoon wich is mechanical array probably beats them all in range except that of the F-22 (APG-77). AESA has its advantages over all other technologies but as I said due to other factors theres exceptions when your comparing radars for different classes of fighters.

Curiously the most potent AA radar is the APG-63(V3) mounted on some upgraded F-15's for the simple reason the APG-77 is soft toned down in order to enhance its LPI capabilities, and those F-15's have the RCS the size of a barn and that will give it away before the radar will.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Kartik »

jpremnath wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 94465?s=20 ---> Future indigenous AESA radars for front line fighters of IAF.
Big shout out to Kuntal Biswas for these lifelike renders...Having worked on making 3d renders, i can appreciate the amount of effort which went into making such detailed renderings. He is a treasure.!
Totally. He puts out absolutely top notch stuff. If I were to take a decision like that, I'd have DRDO, ADA, HAL, all working with him o a contract basis to create their brochures. Don't need to give classified material, but what is already considered publicly releasable material.

People may pooh pooh it, but marketing matters. When it comes to defence and aerospace magazines, trade shows, air shows, etc. snazzy renderings and brochures give a certain image of an organization- outdated looking presentations give an image of a tardy outdated organization, no matter how intense the work going on inside. Till date, DRDO and it's arms have never taken this seriously. With the PM now wanting India to get into the big league of export nations, this must be encouraged.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

Deleted, photo copyright issue taken up with Twitter
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 46208?s=20 ---> Now all eyes are on this fella. The results of the test for the SAR role at supersonic speed would be the key.

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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Neela »

Image

Tracking Sentinel-1 Interference in Kashmir

Nice article which gives insights into how Swathi is deployed along the border.
This here-today-gone-tomorrow interference is frustrating but understandable given the specifications of the Swathi system. The radar is highly mobile, as it is mounted on two trucks, allowing it to rush forward when required, and retreat to safer areas when it is not needed. The DRDO even developed a smaller, more rugged Mark II version specifically for use in mountainous Kashmir that improves on the mobility of the Mark I:
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Neela »



Indian SAR evolution & development from Tapan Mishra

From 41:00 onwards - How India built the world's only full spectrum measurement system with inputs from a part time tailor.

Loads and loads of info.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

Neela wrote:Image

Tracking Sentinel-1 Interference in Kashmir

Nice article which gives insights into how Swathi is deployed along the border.
This here-today-gone-tomorrow interference is frustrating but understandable given the specifications of the Swathi system. The radar is highly mobile, as it is mounted on two trucks, allowing it to rush forward when required, and retreat to safer areas when it is not needed. The DRDO even developed a smaller, more rugged Mark II version specifically for use in mountainous Kashmir that improves on the mobility of the Mark I:
The interference is coming from wideband internet communication devices known as Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure (U-NII) devices in the US. See the following Wikipedia link, which describes this quite well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-NII

In the US and EU, people who operate U-NII devices need to use Dynamic Frequency Selection (DFS) for radar avoidance or seek fines from telecom regulators.

These are wireless IP devices and is very likely coming from within India's own border. The radar can go into a passive mode, where it doesn't transmit, but the receiver is open to triangulate on which range gate the interference is coming from. Further, commercial tools are available which can interpret the interference as 802.11 modulation and even obtain the IP information. This is a common problem and need not be something sinister from the Pakis.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

rrao wrote:coverage will be limited to+/-60 deg in AZ because of fixed antenna array, Gimbaled antenna array will increase scan coverage as is in BARS.
I don't think we will know what the elevation and azimuth limitations are. It may exceed +/- 60 deg in AZ. What is more important is a coherent beam in terms of shape, polarization and concentration so that power densities are sufficiently high for detection and clutter rejection.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Karan M »

rrao wrote:coverage will be limited to+/-60 deg in AZ because of fixed antenna array, Gimbaled antenna array will increase scan coverage as is in BARS.
Good enough, no. The coverage on the Rafale is similar. On Bars its actually +/- 40 degrees with the gimbals adding the additional +/-30 degrees in azimuth.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Mort Walker wrote:
rrao wrote:coverage will be limited to+/-60 deg in AZ because of fixed antenna array, Gimbaled antenna array will increase scan coverage as is in BARS.
I don't think we will know what the elevation and azimuth limitations are. It may exceed +/- 60 deg in AZ. What is more important is a coherent beam in terms of shape, polarization and concentration so that power densities are sufficiently high for detection and clutter rejection.
AESA's are usually limited to +/- 60 degrees, hence the need for gimbals or other scanning mechanisms.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by jamwal »

Image
Image

What happened to this radar system?
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Neela »

Mort Walker wrote:
The interference is coming from wideband internet communication devices known as Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure (U-NII) devices in the US. See the following Wikipedia link, which describes this quite well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-NII

In the US and EU, people who operate U-NII devices need to use Dynamic Frequency Selection (DFS) for radar avoidance or seek fines from telecom regulators.

These are wireless IP devices and is very likely coming from within India's own border. The radar can go into a passive mode, where it doesn't transmit, but the receiver is open to triangulate on which range gate the interference is coming from. Further, commercial tools are available which can interpret the interference as 802.11 modulation and even obtain the IP information. This is a common problem and need not be something sinister from the Pakis.
U-NII Mid (U-NII-2A[3]): 5.250–5.350 GHz. Both outdoor and indoor use, subject to Dynamic Frequency Selection (DFS, or radar avoidance). Regulations allow for a user-installable antenna.[5] Power limited to 250 mW[4].
Cross checking your claim.
Check 1> Same frequenccy range for U-N11 as Swathi ? - seems so.
Swathi in C band with central freq at 5.4GHz
U-N11 is at 5.250–5.350 GHz

Check 2> Can the Sentinel-1 interference pattern overlayed on a map be explained by U-N11 devices?
No.
U-N11 has max power rating at 250mW . Too tiny.
Swathi peak Power is 40kW with range of 100 km .
Look at the pic again. The beams almost reach halfway to Afghanistan border. PLotting interference pattern on map gave me 100km for the beam distance.
Civvies dont have devices that can transmit to such large distances.


Check3> Has Swathi been deployed on LoC
Yes

Check 4> What other devices can transmit at same freq at such high power?
Only Swathi given the shape, direction, distance of beam as shown in map.

So I dont think it is U-N11 device.And most likely Swathi.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by jamwal »

Pretty sure that Indians don't have such internet enabled devices in Poonch sector either.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

Neela wrote:
U-NII Mid (U-NII-2A[3]): 5.250–5.350 GHz. Both outdoor and indoor use, subject to Dynamic Frequency Selection (DFS, or radar avoidance). Regulations allow for a user-installable antenna.[5] Power limited to 250 mW[4].
Cross checking your claim.
Check 1> Same frequenccy range for U-N11 as Swathi ? - seems so.
Swathi in C band with central freq at 5.4GHz
U-N11 is at 5.250–5.350 GHz

Check 2> Can the Sentinel-1 interference pattern overlayed on a map be explained by U-N11 devices?
No.
U-N11 has max power rating at 250mW . Too tiny.
Swathi peak Power is 40kW with range of 100 km .
Look at the pic again. The beams almost reach halfway to Afghanistan border. PLotting interference pattern on map gave me 100km for the beam distance.
Civvies dont have devices that can transmit to such large distances.


Check3> Has Swathi been deployed on LoC
Yes

Check 4> What other devices can transmit at same freq at such high power?
Only Swathi given the shape, direction, distance of beam as shown in map.

So I dont think it is U-N11 device.And most likely Swathi.
It could be Swathi, but IMO it is unlikely as Swathi is not on long enough to show up. It doesn't mean that it's not possible. A 250mW transmitter with a 10-12 dB gain antenna will show up and contaminate range gates since it is in operation 24/7. These internet devices are quite common, inexpensive and often imported from China to operate outside of license parameters.

It would be interesting to look at Sentinel-1 interference from other C-band sources such as the AN/MPQ-53/65 radar.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by brar_w »

Mort Walker wrote:
It would be interesting to look at Sentinel-1 interference from other C-band sources such as the AN/MPQ-53/65 radar.
https://medium.com/@HarelDan/x-marks-th ... 9cdb1f534b
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

Karan M wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
I don't think we will know what the elevation and azimuth limitations are. It may exceed +/- 60 deg in AZ. What is more important is a coherent beam in terms of shape, polarization and concentration so that power densities are sufficiently high for detection and clutter rejection.
AESA's are usually limited to +/- 60 degrees, hence the need for gimbals or other scanning mechanisms.
Perhaps so, but if the T/R elements are GaN devices, they can put out more power. It is possible that outside of typical AESA parameters, a useful beam can be formed albeit with lower power. It's all a matter of design choices where the radar becomes more reliable and maintainable without a gimbal.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

brar_w wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
It would be interesting to look at Sentinel-1 interference from other C-band sources such as the AN/MPQ-53/65 radar.
https://medium.com/@HarelDan/x-marks-th ... 9cdb1f534b

Thanks. It does look very similar where you can see what appears to be the variable pulse repetition frequency and then range folding further out in the radial. It would be interesting to know what the duty cycle is of these radars. I would have thought it to be less than 1%.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by nam »

The video on SAR has info on Chandrayan 2 Dual band SAR L & S band with L forming the outer square, while S forming the inner square! Ingenious!

And here I was thinking when we will LRDE be creating a American style dual band radar! :roll:
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by nam »

He also mentions about antenna design using meta materials by IIT Khargpur, able to work in wide bandwidth! Video is must watch.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Prasad »

Neela wrote:

Indian SAR evolution & development from Tapan Mishra

From 41:00 onwards - How India built the world's only full spectrum measurement system with inputs from a part time tailor.

Loads and loads of info.
Fantastic stuff this. A few points -
1. RF Cables - we didnt have any, had to find a way.
2. GAETEC - had to be re-energised.
3. Connectors - had to buy commercial-grade because dekhonomoney for mil-grade (might also have been itar'd/tech-denied)
4. RISAT data isn't under isro control (to share freely). It is in another domain (where it is a priority).
5. 2 IIT Kgp PhD (Persistent Scatterer Interferometry) fellows left for japan & other countries as they were sought after ( We couldn't retain them here after their PhD).
6. Maritime airborne x band sar weighing 5.5kg upto 40km range from 10km alt at .35m resolution. full polarimetry opn & hydro imaging capability.
7. Given advances in silicon & GaN, we might see miniature drone based SAR functions for civilian use. This might actually free up a lot of sat-based SAR functions which could be then slewed to strategic functions.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by ranneel »

Neela wrote:
Tracking Sentinel-1 Interference in Kashmir

Nice article which gives insights into how Swathi is deployed along the border.
This here-today-gone-tomorrow interference is frustrating but understandable given the specifications of the Swathi system. The radar is highly mobile, as it is mounted on two trucks, allowing it to rush forward when required, and retreat to safer areas when it is not needed. The DRDO even developed a smaller, more rugged Mark II version specifically for use in mountainous Kashmir that improves on the mobility of the Mark I:
Similar interference is seen here in the Sentinel-1 SAR image taken at 22-11-2020 of the coast off Gujarat with the Indus river and delta in the view.
Image
I think the radar pulses seems to be emitted from a single source with two sets being captured in the SAR scan.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Prasad »

Latest on the Uttam radar and other very interesting developments on the radar front -



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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

Thanks Prasad.

It appears LDRE has done some really good work. Time to throw some big bucks at LDRE to move design and testing up so serial production of the UTTAM and other radars can be brought into serial production.

At 1:46 the indication of implementing SAR has been successful.
At 2:05 the indication is that issues with ground clutter have been resolved. This is a big accomplishment by LDRE.
At 2:12 the indication of proving ISAR is underway. If I were a betting man, I would compare ISAR data from the P-8I of the same targets to validate.
At 2:41 the chart shows two receive antennas and two transmit antennas for EW which are integrated into UTTAM. This is a very good development.
At 3:12 the intention is shown to integrate the EW suite, RWR and UTTAM together.
At 3:25 the block diagram is gives a nice overview.
At 4:05 I really wish they didn't provide such detail.
At 4:38 it is very interesting that the BARS radar in the Su-30MKI would be replaced with a scaled UTTAM that has twice the performance of the BARS, but no time line was given. At this rate, the deeply integrated UTTAM system on the Tejas would outperform the Su-30MKI.
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Prasad »

BARS replacement will need HAL to actually start the program. Only initial studies for replacement have been done. Engineering will take a bit of time. 2-3 years you think?
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Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by Mort Walker »

Prasad wrote:BARS replacement will need HAL to actually start the program. Only initial studies for replacement have been done. Engineering will take a bit of time. 2-3 years you think?
If parallel work between BARS replacement and UTTAM are done, then 3 years minimum until testing. If funds are approved for LDRE for this effort it will be 5 years before any real replacement. I think it will come down to cost. Money invested in LDRE will be cheaper than servicing the BARS over 5-7 year period.
nam
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Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Radar - Specs & Discussions

Post by nam »

HAL is probably going to fight tooth and nail to use a enlarged version of 2052 on Su30 upgrade, given that it is now building 2052 using TOT.

Uttam is not their kit. I don't see any other reason, why they asked for ToT for a build run of 100 odd radar. Even that 100 is not confirmed, given Uttam once cleared of trial is LCA already! Unlike 2052, which needs to be integrated.

Mig29 will be updated by base depot, so Uttam is possible.
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