Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rgsrini
BRFite
Posts: 738
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 18:00

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rgsrini » 14 Feb 2011 07:38

I thought so. But I explained in detail, just to provide clarity to others. Regarding the height there is also the possibility of dropping just the aisle portion by 6" or so to make a "(--__--)" to give even more head room in the middle, without compromising the maximum width available for placing the seats.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8263
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2011 07:54

Nice idea about the aisle floor being lower. Wonder if that is actually the case. With the sideways seating, that will not be possible.

Also, I don't know about others but I feel sick when traveling sideways. I know the paratroopers often do it, but forward facing seats are always advertised.

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby merlin » 14 Feb 2011 08:40

indranilroy wrote:I think putting the equipment on one side is easier for means of wiring. But isn't it detrimental for the CG?


Seat placement has been arrived at as per IAFs requirement and with fine tuning from Embraer based on CG considerations.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8263
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2011 08:59

Having said all that ... why do people go for the side aisle then?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2011 09:00

embraer has a range of bigger jets. does anyone think going for the next bigger plane would have been more optimal ?
the EMB145 is their biggest small jet. the next up belongs to their E-jet series and is E-170. has a 3000km range and 70 seats, so much roomier compared to the EMB145.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/388 ... 066fd4.jpg

in India, paramount airways is flying this aircraft. you can see the interior here
http://www.paramountairways.com/experience.html

but I guess EMB145 was the quickest soln because embraer already had the design and exp in hand from Ereyie project.

hope they come up with a more powerful radar and more onboard console for Phase2 of the project and choose the EMB170 or bigger.

viktor
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 18 Feb 2004 12:31
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby viktor » 14 Feb 2011 18:03

Image

Image

AASU unit is pretty big. Is it the same one shown on EMB model in the picture or will it be used on next batch of AEW&C aircraft?

viktor
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 18 Feb 2004 12:31
Location: Bangalore
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby viktor » 14 Feb 2011 18:14

Gurus, how about an AEW&C solution based on Gulfstream G650? It has a max altitude of 51,000 ft and a range of ~13,000 km. From what I know, Israel and Singapore already rely on G 550 + PHALCON solution.

Avinandan
BRFite
Posts: 221
Joined: 12 Jun 2005 12:29
Location: Pune

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Avinandan » 15 Feb 2011 00:19

viktor wrote:Gurus, how about an AEW&C solution based on Gulfstream G650? It has a max altitude of 51,000 ft and a range of ~13,000 km. From what I know, Israel and Singapore already rely on G 550 + PHALCON solution.

Not a guru, put some of my thoughts...
Gulfstream G650 is indeed a potent plane that could replace Embraer 145SA variant (assuming ready test data and research for fielding Phalcon RADAR in Gulfstream G550 holds good for Gulfstream G650 as well).

The only catch is that the India's solution was somewhat similar to the erieye configuration (placing the radar on top of the fuselage) whereas for Gulfstream, the RADAR is mated into the fuselage itself. I am not sure if india would be willing to have that kind of radar placement solution (owing to commonality).

So India had only couple of options to start with for a fast solution, Saab based AEW or Emb 145 (as they already field Erieyes and the relevant studies have already been done). At the end India chose Emb 145 as it had already purchased them for BSF and VIP transports. Atmost a custom militarized version of Embraer ERJ 145XR could be taken into consideration. The range though is very less in comparison to the Gulfstream G650. Alternatively India could approach for the recent Embraer Lineage 1000 (if quick solution could be provided similar to Emb 145)

Quick Ranges comparison
1. Embraer 145SA : 3019 km
2. Embraer 145XR : 3706 km
3. Embraer Lineage 1000 : 8344 km
3. Gulfstream G550: 12500 km
4. Gulfstream G650: 12960 km

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2011 01:44

ERJ 145 due to its large internal volume when compared to Gulfstream 650 allows you to carry a spare set of crew either for extended missions or for training purposes. This rest area would be missing in smaller business jets like gulfstream. Given inflight refueling options, the secondary coverage role and the probable location of deployment (within indian territories), this is a pretty good platform for our needs. For training purposes, they can easily jury rig secondary *display* consoles for new crews to be in the rest area and shadow the main consoles. We don't need gold plated platform for every role. We are getting AEW's and that alone will change the way, we *may* fight if ever. 5-6 phalcons and 10 of these AEW's are good enough for us. We will probably be the largest operator of AEW outside of USA after this acquisition.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17062
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2011 01:53

our next set of desi AEWs is not going to be based on EMB-145 and I expect a larger platform to be chosen.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2011 02:12

Rahul M wrote:our next set of desi AEWs is not going to be based on EMB-145 and I expect a larger platform to be chosen.


Any news regarding choice of next platform ? How many in this "set" for for the 145 ? 3 or 5?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17062
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2011 02:16

3. no news on next platform.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2011 02:19

Rahul M wrote:3. no news on next platform.



Okay. Cool. Thanks!

But there is news item which says that this platform only for next 3 AEW's?

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4058
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 15 Feb 2011 02:55

indranilroy wrote:Having said all that ... why do people go for the side aisle then?


privacy while surfing BRF? :oops:

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17062
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2011 03:08

Cybaru wrote:Okay. Cool. Thanks!

But there is news item which says that this platform only for next 3 AEW's?

it appeared during or just before AI. difficult to locate it in the info storm. I'll try.

edit : sorry, no luck so far. the main problem is the project has no formal name and search strings return irrelevant results.

it was a comment by a DRDO honcho either from CABS or even higher up about future path of their AEW&C, he mentioned clearly that EMB-145 will not be the aircraft of choice.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1165
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 15 Feb 2011 03:14

^^ Dont Forget that the Navy is showing interest in Land Based E-2Ds

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2011 03:22

Thanks Rahul. No worries. Whenever you run into.

gnair
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 76
Joined: 19 Aug 2008 03:15

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby gnair » 15 Feb 2011 06:45

ERJ-145's are great airplanes. Having personally worked on them, I vouch for their fantastic seat/mile operating costs, sturdy structure, short field performance and handles well in the harshest of weather. (-20> C) Very minimal ground support equipment required, to operate this baby.
The low wing can give you a good bump and gash on the head, if you don't watch where you're going, while working on it, for the SDRE types like myself and the RR-AE 300 series engines sometimes go into heavy PMS mode, with relay errors. There's no way you can get around this without opening up the cowling and doing diagnostics, which are time consuming and can cause standard 2 hr delays. But still dispatch reliability is greater than 92 percent. Wise choice over all by the IAF. Brazil is a far away place though, for parts support unless they have a distribution centre closer to home.

rgsrini
BRFite
Posts: 738
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 18:00

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rgsrini » 15 Feb 2011 08:11

Rahul M wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Okay. Cool. Thanks!

But there is news item which says that this platform only for next 3 AEW's?

it appeared during or just before AI. difficult to locate it in the info storm. I'll try.

edit : sorry, no luck so far. the main problem is the project has no formal name and search strings return irrelevant results.

it was a comment by a DRDO honcho either from CABS or even higher up about future path of their AEW&C, he mentioned clearly that EMB-145 will not be the aircraft of choice.


Here you go.
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4695
DRDO AWACS First Batch Delivery by 2015; Embraer EMB 145 May Not be Base Platform for Second Batch

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17062
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 15 Feb 2011 08:16

thanks ! seems I was mistaken about EMB-145 NOT being the choice. they might still chose it again.

rgsrini
BRFite
Posts: 738
Joined: 17 Sep 2005 18:00

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rgsrini » 15 Feb 2011 08:38

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4658

Boeing Offers B737-700 AWACS Platform

Mr. Vivek Lall confirmed in an interview to Press Trust of India that the American defense and aerospace major has briefed the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy of the B737-700 AWACS platform in response to a Request for Information (RFI) issued by the Ministry of Defence.

"Boeing has briefed the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force about Airborne Early Warning and Command (AEW&C) aircraft on the basis of Request for Information (RFI). However, no Request for Proposals (RFP) has been issued as yet."




http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4999

While briefing media personnel in Bangalore on the eve of Aero India 2011, (Retired) Commodore Gyanendra Sharma, Managing Director of Northrop Grumman India announced that the Ministry of Defence has sent a Request for Information (RFI) for E-2D Naval Airborne Early Warning aircraft to Northrop Grumman.

As per details given by Mr. Sharma, Indian Navy has shown interest in procuring at least four such aircrafts.




Aren't we buying are atleast considering to buy almost everything that is available (kid in a candy shop?)... Shouldn't we standardize on say one small platform and one large platform to maintain interoperability, commanility, ease of maintenance, cross trainability and all the good stuff. Can gurus shed some light on this?

or is RFI just a way for understanding the capabilities of their system and turn around build our own version of it...

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Feb 2011 10:16

E2D has the advantage of going into IAC-2 in a decade's time *IF* we go the EMALS/steam cat way and in the meantime operate for 5 yrs from land bases. con is lesser transit speed and range and less power/onboard controllers.

the B737 MESA has the advantage of being faster, more powerful and roomier but obviously land based only. it will have good long range search capability because australia has gone for it and northrop grumann is a world leader in phased array radar techs

in my opinion, its best the navy goes for maybe 10-15 land based AEW based around the EMB1000/G550 (phase2 of the current project), maybe with some additional optimizations and 4-6 E2-D for the IAC2 air wing.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21163
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2011 17:56

The US is desperately trying to sell us whatever junk it can,which will shortly go out of production.The E-2D will not come "fully loaded",and as a land-based platform is vastly inferior to the Embraer CABS AEW system.It would be worthwhile comparing the two aircraft on this thread and sending the same to the DM/CNS,especially as indigenisation of defence weapon systems is the acknoowledged holy grail of India,recently enunciated by the DM himself.

Ideally,the nation need a holistic integrated AEW system that includes LR aircraft like the Phalcon AWACS,smaller AEW CABS/Emb.,airships ike the Grumman/Northrop,long-endurance UAVs and a string of land-based radars around the coastline on the mountain tops W/E Ghats and in the Himalayas.At sea aboard our carriers and warships,AEW helos and UAVs will suffice until larger carriers capable of carrying larger extra-long endurance stealth UAVs are available.

Baldev
BRFite
Posts: 501
Joined: 21 Sep 2009 07:27

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Baldev » 17 Feb 2011 06:52

A-50 Radar Early-Warning and Guiding Aircraft
http://www.irkut.com/en/services/production/A50/

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3843
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 20 Feb 2011 09:47

Video showing seating arrangement in the AEW (has this not given a name ?) on tarmak.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Feb 2011 11:49

Rahul M wrote:thanks ! seems I was mistaken about EMB-145 NOT being the choice. they might still chose it again.


No you are not mistaken. However, we don't know what holds in future. EMB + ERJ's in defence and private may be the reason why it might be chosen in future. Due to avaliablility of the type in numbers and associated servicing infrastructure, the ERJ was chosen at the first place.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 21 Feb 2011 13:39

Can't wait for the unveiling of the CABS DRDO AEW&C. It was speculated to happen today.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16887
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Feb 2011 13:57

I am not sure how much to trust some of these web sites, but here is one (of many) that has such news:

dated Jan 15, 2011 wrote:IAI also offered the Gulfstream G5 based EL/M-2085 Conformal AEW (CAEW) which can remain on a mission for 11 hours, but deemed too costly for the Indian requirement.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2135
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 21 Feb 2011 23:24

PratikDas wrote:Can't wait for the unveiling of the CABS DRDO AEW&C. It was speculated to happen today.

Embraer unveils new EMB-145 AEW&C platform for India

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8263
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 21 Feb 2011 23:27

^^^ Thank you for that pic.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1927
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 22 Feb 2011 05:21

Its a beauty!

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 22 Feb 2011 07:54


dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1172
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby dinesha » 22 Feb 2011 08:20

looks menacing :twisted:

karan_mc
BRFite
Posts: 700
Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 22 Feb 2011 09:57

Embraer rolls out first EMB 145 AEW&C for India

Here is the Press release from Embraer , nice mean looking aircraft :D

silod
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby silod » 22 Feb 2011 10:50

Dear All,

I am currently reading "Descilpe", authored by Stephen Coonts. He mentions a unique system called "ALQ-199" that makes US Navy's Hornets invisible to the Iranian radars. I just want to ask some Gurus whether this system really exists or it is a mere imagination of the author? If this is true that US has this system for their Hornets, why is US not pitching the Hornets to us equipped with this system under MMRCA deal? PLEASE THROW SOME LIGHT ON THIS ASPECT.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Feb 2011 14:12

Embraer rolls out the EMB 145 AEW&C platform for the Indian Air Force

EMB-145I aircraft modified for AEW&C System rolled out at Embraer, Brazil on 21 Feb 2011. The roll out ceremony was witnessed by Dr VK Saraswat, SA to RM; Dr Prahlada, CC R&D(Ae & SI); Dr S Christopher, Director, CABS; Air Marshal Daljit Singh, AVSM, VM, DG(AO), IAF and many senior officials from Indian Embassy and M/s Embraer.

Image

I will get you some images I received. Please wait for some time.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 22 Feb 2011 14:33

Embraer - ERJ-145 for India images

One

Two

Three

VishalJ
BRFite
Posts: 1025
Joined: 12 Feb 2009 06:40
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby VishalJ » 22 Feb 2011 17:00


Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 22 Feb 2011 17:32

Clicky

Image

Image

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 22 Feb 2011 17:42

Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A Nandy, BALAR025, Nishant Kumar Jha, ssaravanan and 58 guests