Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby nakul » 04 Oct 2012 21:07

The baniyas are going to go for more aerostats in the near future. Under the pretext of cruise missile defence, the yindoos will cover their airspace with kaffr EM waves allowing detection of stealthy baburic missiles as well. The same defence mechanism will be capable of intercepting the dlagon's brack pranes of the J xx type. With these manning the border 24 x 7, it will be left to the enemy planes to fall into the honey trap for SEAD. The chankiyans know where the locusts will nest and leave detection to hot air balloons.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 05 Oct 2012 04:37

nakul wrote:The baniyas are going to go for more aerostats in the near future. Under the pretext of cruise missile defence, the yindoos will cover their airspace with kaffr EM waves allowing detection of stealthy baburic missiles as well. The same defence mechanism will be capable of intercepting the dlagon's brack pranes of the J xx type. With these manning the border 24 x 7, it will be left to the enemy planes to fall into the honey trap for SEAD. The chankiyans know where the locusts will nest and leave detection to hot air balloons.

How many Aerostats do we have currently, even though couple were bought, only one was rumoured to be functional... Desi Aerostat is not exactly setting the floor on fire by way of enthusiasm. in the absence of a concerted campaign to develop and deploy Aerostats in good numbers, our AD radar network leaves much to be desired. Khan's southern border with Mexico has hundreds of these watching 24x7 and mind you, this is not exactly a war zone.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 05 Oct 2012 04:39

Singha wrote:long term its quite clear we need 15-20 Embraer types and around 10 Phalcons - minimum. using a A330 chassis for phalcon would hugely increase its fuel capacity, payload, crew rest area etc. the IL76 is a fairly small a/c in comparison though stressed for heavy point loads as a cargo hauler.
A330 or the B737 or even Gulfstream, SDREs should decide soon...

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby narmad » 06 Dec 2012 21:15

DRDO News letter Dec 2012

The indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system built on the EMB-1451 aircraft flew for the first time in India on 29 September 2012 on completion of internal wiring for mission system and population of mission system hardware installation by Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), Bengaluru. Its inspection was done by M/s Embraer and clearance was issued by Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC). The aircraft also participated in the Air Force day on 8 October 2012.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2012 22:03

I wonder if a indian or elta gmti radar can be fitted on same balance beam and mission systems of the aew version using minor changes to software and processing gear?

That would be ideal situation...unlike the centralized control of the entire iaf fighting as one, perhaps the army front commanders could each task their own gmti planes and uavs as just another part of sensor assets feeding into decision making system.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Will » 01 Jan 2013 04:57

Will the additional two Phalcons being ordered be on the IL-76 platform or is going to be a new platform?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jan 2013 08:00

Will wrote:Will the additional two Phalcons being ordered be on the IL-76 platform or is going to be a new platform?
My guess is a larger Gulfstream or an Airbus bird... Israel has fielded its Phalcon on Gulfstream birds before, hence my money is on it... Sincerely doubt it will be on an IL platform, if it where, signature would have happened during Putin Mahashay's visit.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jan 2013 09:54

Airbus more than likely. The Gulfstream is a subset of the larger Phalcon. Also recall that there was a mysterious IAF Gulfstream (bought from a person who could no longer afford it?) that made a stop in Israel a few months ago.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 02 Jan 2013 10:00

^^ Hope they club the new airframes with the MRTT A-330 tender and get both of them ASAP.

But going by recent news of Rs 10000 Cr capital outlay cut, looks like the MRTT is far away and the Phalcon airframe would be purchased as a standalone.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jan 2013 10:03

Found something of interest: The "Conformal Airborne Early Warning and Control System (CAEWCS) fitted into a modified Gulfstream 550G business jet" has "an endurance of nine hours, against the IL-78's six hours".

Wonder how do their range compare.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby nrshah » 02 Jan 2013 11:49

NRao wrote:Found something of interest: The "Conformal Airborne Early Warning and Control System (CAEWCS) fitted into a modified Gulfstream 550G business jet" has "an endurance of nine hours, against the IL-78's six hours".

Wonder how do their range compare.


I remember, Austin or someone had earlier clarified that the above does not hold true. CAEWCS endurance is quoted with range of 100kms whereas 6 hours of IL series with range of 1000 Kms.
Further, being larger, IL series can have more operating stations which permits dedicated station for particular sectors in war time scenario involving multiple sectors at a time.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Jan 2013 13:10

Some time back I had asked if it was a good idea to use C 17 for next phalcon, answer given was that it was too big. But comparing sizes it seems smaller than A 300 , also it has DIRCM for self protection plus 4 engines compared to 2 engines of A 330 and can land on rugged surfaces in case of emergency. Why can't we use C 17 instead of mrtt for next phalcon?

A 330mrtt:

Length: 58.80 m (193 ft)
Wingspan: 60.3 m (198 ft)
Height: 17.4 m (57 ft)
Wing area: 362 m2 (3,900 ft2)
Empty weight: 125,000 kg (275,600 lb)
Useful load: 45,000 kg non-fuel payload (99,000 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 233,000 kg (514,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce Trent 772B or General Electric CF6-80E1A4 or Pratt & Whitney PW 4168A turbofans, 320 kN (72,000 lbf) 320 kN each
Fuel Capability: 111,000 kg (240,000 lb) max, 65,000 kg (140,000 lb) at 1,000 nmi with 2 hours on station

Performance

Maximum speed: 880 km/h (475 knots, 547 mph)
Cruise speed: 860 km/h (464 knots, 534 mph)
Range: 14,800 km (8,000 nmi, 9,200 mi)
Service ceiling: 12,600 m (41,500 ft)



C 17

Payload: 170,900 lb (77,519 kg)

Length: 174 ft (53 m)
Wingspan: 169.8 ft (51.75 m)
Height: 55.1 ft (16.8 m)
Wing area: 3,800 ft² (353 m²)
Empty weight: 282,500 lb (128,100 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 585,000 lb (265,350 kg)
Powerplant: 4 × Pratt & Whitney F117-PW-100 turbofans, 40,440 lbf (180 kN) each
Fuel capacity: 35,546 U.S. gal (134,556 L)

Performance

Cruise speed: Mach 0.76 (450 knots, 515 mph, 830 km/h)
Range: 2,420 nmi[167] (2,785 mi, 4,482 km) ; 5,610 nmi (10,390 km) with paratroops[172]
Service ceiling: 45,000 ft (13,716 m)
Max. wing loading: 150 lb/ft² (750 kg/m²)
Minimum thrust/weight: 0.277
Takeoff run at MTOW: 7,600 ft (2,316 m)[167]
Landing distance: 3,500 ft (1,060 m)

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 02 Jan 2013 18:52

I think the 787 or 777 airframes would be ideal for phalcon style awacs, both have long ranges, have newer technology and would allow for extensive duration missions. They also travel faster with the 777 having a max cruise speed of mach 0.89. 777 would make an excellent refueler too.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2013 19:27

But then nobody is developing 777 as refueler. Usaf is going with kc767.

Japan e3 sentry is on 767 so the design data and test is there for a similar dish. We could use it instead of airbus 300 greenfield phalcon project.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2013 05:00

nrshah wrote:
NRao wrote:Found something of interest: The "Conformal Airborne Early Warning and Control System (CAEWCS) fitted into a modified Gulfstream 550G business jet" has "an endurance of nine hours, against the IL-78's six hours".

Wonder how do their range compare.


I remember, Austin or someone had earlier clarified that the above does not hold true. CAEWCS endurance is quoted with range of 100kms whereas 6 hours of IL series with range of 1000 Kms.
Further, being larger, IL series can have more operating stations which permits dedicated station for particular sectors in war time scenario involving multiple sectors at a time.


1) The Indian Phalcon is about equal to three different types of Gulfstream G550 based planes
2) The best figures I could get is the Indian Phalcon has 11 operators, while the CAEWCS fitted into a modified Gulfstream 550G business jet has six. But because of #1 we cannot compare these one to one. From what I can tell, the IL Phalcon has eight operators that perform the very same operation as the G550 operators (two are for SIGINT and one for something I am not familiar with DMARS(?))
3) No clue what is the 100/1000 to do with range. Here is a quote "The data sheet for the G550 lists the business jet as having a range of 12,500km (6,750nm) and an endurance of 11h, and IAI has previously said that the Eitam can fly for over 9h above 41,000ft (12,500m)." (from FlightGlobal: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-339637/) (Eitam is the CAEWCS). One flew, in 2009, directly from Israel to India. The ILs have a range of some 16,000 Kms. And the Indian Phalcons are TD, which could have even a greater range

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2013 05:32

NRao wrote:Airbus more than likely. The Gulfstream is a subset of the larger Phalcon. Also recall that there was a mysterious IAF Gulfstream (bought from a person who could no longer afford it?) that made a stop in Israel a few months ago.


Saar I believe it was a bombardier g5000 onlee. Last months and Nov's AFM and ACM monthlies say that this jet and possibly a second one are being rigged in Yehudi land for Astor-ish roles.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2013 07:12

^^^^ :). You are right, as usual:

June, 2012 :: Indian Air Force take delivery of Global 5000

Image



.................................

You say two, eh?

Are these two the ones that Anthony is talking about?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2013 15:56

^^^^ I am not sure if these are exact replacements for the Gulfstreams, however their role seems to be a little different as the Gulfstreams were undertaking spooky peekaboo missions with raw.

There have been a few confirmations now that the g5000s will be built as astor equivalents for the IAF will indeed get an awesome GMTI, SAR and battle management platforms to look deep inside land of snows ;)

http://www.bizjetblogger.com/2012/08/08 ... h-shannon/

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2013 16:00

^^ Will these be ARC or IAF babies?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2013 16:22

ARC has nothing to do with GMTI sensors. it will be under IAF.

if SIGINT that ARC.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2013 19:36

andy B wrote:^^^^ I am not sure if these are exact replacements for the Gulfstreams, however their role seems to be a little different as the Gulfstreams were undertaking spooky peekaboo missions with raw.

There have been a few confirmations now that the g5000s will be built as astor equivalents for the IAF will indeed get an awesome GMTI, SAR and battle management platforms to look deep inside land of snows ;)

http://www.bizjetblogger.com/2012/08/08 ... h-shannon/


Thanks. A lot to learn.

sum wrote:^^ Will these be ARC or IAF babies?


Operated by one entity, data/info shared by any interested party. Network-Centric is the latest mantra. I would imagine that an armed UAV would be most interested in what a SAR/MTI finds. Or even a loitering missile (made in Israel :wink: )
Last edited by NRao on 03 Jan 2013 19:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2013 19:41

Imo the jaguars and m2k tasked with striking moving targets and concentration points would find it most useful to get accurate data for night strikes.

And the rafales would just love it, armed with sdb3 ofcourse.

Being actionable strike intel, wartime use would be under iaf. However in peacetime i expect its sar and isar modes could be used map static objects like camps etc to supplement cartosat type data.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2013 19:57

As I understand "Network-Centric": info is broadcast with a tag on each item. The tag permits only people with certain permissions to access that info. If you have access (permissions) and want it you get a "you have mail" notice. There are other settings, but basically that is how it works. A highly sophisticated Outlook. RT Outlook. Conversely if you do not have permissions, then you are not even aware that info is being broadcast.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2013 21:46

NRao wrote:
andy B wrote:^^^^ I am not sure if these are exact replacements for the Gulfstreams, however their role seems to be a little different as the Gulfstreams were undertaking spooky peekaboo missions with raw.

There have been a few confirmations now that the g5000s will be built as astor equivalents for the IAF will indeed get an awesome GMTI, SAR and battle management platforms to look deep inside land of snows ;)

http://www.bizjetblogger.com/2012/08/08 ... h-shannon/


Thanks. A lot to learn.


Rahem karo saar moi is just an avid observer onlee :mrgreen:

One major difference between J8 type largish sensor is that ours will probably depend more on ground stations to distribute and analyse data on ground stations for us this may not be a bad idea as the senor platform can stay way out of range (IIRC >9000 km range with 41K ceiling) and keep sending info to various nodes. Not sure abt radar range but it should be in the 250 to 300km range. Note that the G5000 is the same platform used for the ASTOR as well.

http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/featur ... 018219.pdf

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2013 21:58

NRao wrote:As I understand "Network-Centric": info is broadcast with a tag on each item. The tag permits only people with certain permissions to access that info. If you have access (permissions) and want it you get a "you have mail" notice. There are other settings, but basically that is how it works. A highly sophisticated Outlook. RT Outlook. Conversely if you do not have permissions, then you are not even aware that info is being broadcast.


Sophisticated outlook indeed. The Jstars has proven some capability to guide and update ASMs and 154 jsows. The Yehudis should be able to make these babies compatible with atleast their own weapon packages and possibly ones used by the Rafales as well. As GD said the Rafale and the upgraded Jaguars (recall that these will carry the Raytheon Mcu's http://investor.raytheon.com/phoenix.zh ... id=1678058) which will enable them to carry more modern weapon systems.

Role of Jstars:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA375059

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2013 22:00

but JSTARS looked cooler and deadlier one has to admit, the airborne battle manager role has a cool next-gen ring to it.
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/jstars.htm

the current JSTARS seems to have a radar about the Astor size only, albeit perhaps more onboard power can be fed into it and more onboard controller consoles.

no doubt they will bring aesa tech into play in next iteration and more networking and finer resolutions. if a fly farts in brazil, khan wants to know and log it somewhere.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 03 Jan 2013 22:17

Singha wrote:but JSTARS looked cooler and deadlier one has to admit, the airborne battle manager role has a cool next-gen ring to it.
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/jstars.htm

the current JSTARS seems to have a radar about the Astor size only, albeit perhaps more onboard power can be fed into it and more on board controller consoles.

no doubt they will bring aesa tech into play in next iteration and more networking and finer resolutions. if a fly farts in brazil, khan wants to know and log it somewhere.


Indeed saar ji but you also have to consider that its flying on a now old platform with 50/60s era JT3D-3B engines!
Compared to that I feel happier with spic span new G5000 8)

The Jstars does of course carry more operators as there are more consoles and is less dependent on ground stations but then again Khan's fetish for expeditionary warfare means that their platform needs to be as independent as possible.

There are a number of software block upgrades that have already been done but the basic sensor remains the same I think even before AESA upgrade they will need to figure out the engines first.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2013 22:19

^^ Wonder if any Desi equipment/stuff/SW developed as a spin off of the CABS AEW&C project will find its way into the G-5000s?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jan 2013 02:20

I dont see a radar on the photo that was linked. How do we know it has GMTI, SAR capabilities?

Its possible that its a SIGINT/COMINT plane only

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jan 2013 07:40

Iai was yet to work on it post delivery. Those windows will mostly be gone too. So side panels or underbelly housing will be put in for sure.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2013 09:12

Singha wrote:Iai was yet to work on it post delivery. Those windows will mostly be gone too. So side panels or underbelly housing will be put in for sure.


ASTOR:

Image

Looked like photoshoped, but then came across this:

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/sentinel.htm

Looks like it was a proof of concept.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is a prototype.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Jan 2013 09:38

the real astor removed the windows
http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... tor_10.jpg

I heard astor is being retired because of RAF funding crunch.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jan 2013 22:24

Wondering why the Global 5000 purchase is so hush-hush, unlike the Phalcons?

Questions: are the Phalcons capable of providing mid course guidance to long range AAMs? Can an MKI fire an R77 without getting a radar lock itself but completely dependent on the Phalcon?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 05 Jan 2013 03:02

NRao wrote:^^^^ :). You are right, as usual:

Are these two the ones that Anthony is talking about?


There is nothing on these puppies.. no radars, no elint, nothing ? Pure transport ?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 05 Jan 2013 03:16

Cybaru wrote:
NRao wrote:^^^^ :). You are right, as usual:

Are these two the ones that Anthony is talking about?


There is nothing on these puppies.. no radars, no elint, nothing ? Pure transport ?


IF it is an ASTOR, then all it should have is a canoe at the bottom. The Brit version has a dome at the top - do not know what that is for. Perhaps high slung satcom?

Typical Israeli install is on UAVs. I did come across one prop plane, but not sure if it was just a pic to show what it would like like.

I heard astor is being retired because of RAF funding crunch.


Interesting. But, even if India wanted them they could not get them.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Jan 2013 04:23

Prem Kumar wrote:Wondering why the Global 5000 purchase is so hush-hush, unlike the Phalcons?


VVIP shopping trips?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Anurag » 05 Jan 2013 05:06

Looks like the Global 5000 are for ARC to replace the Gulfstreams according to the article below.

After 20 years, R&AW upgrades to super spy jets

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 49802.aspx

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby dinesha » 25 Jan 2013 16:44

India takes up AWACS programme for air superiority, can penetrate enemy territory INDIA,
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-takes- ... 709-3.html
Bangalore: India has just taken up development of the Rs 6,000 crore Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) that will have the capability to penetrate "longer distances" enemy territory by way of radars and electronic warfare systems without venturing into the region physically, a top defence official said on Friday.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister, Secretary in the Department of Defence (R&D) and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) VK Saraswat said DRDO just started the programme, after clearance from the government recently.

Asked how it's different from the indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system, he said: "AWACS is a heavier and high endurance system, which can give you in terms of coverage about 360 degrees as against AEW&C which is about 270 degree coverage."

DRDO Director General VK Saraswat said the programme has been cleared by the government.
In addition, (compared to AEW&C) AWACS flies at a higher altitude and it can penetrate into the enemy territory - not physically - (but) by way of radars and EW (electronic warfare) systems to longer distances and it can be in sky for larger durations, besides giving better visibility.

"Both has a role. All over the world, people have AEW&C and AWACS in a tandem mode because each one does its role and that's what our country is also doing", Saraswat said.

He said two AEW&C aircraft would be ready this year, adding, "By 2014, we will complete delivery of all the three aircraft (AEW&C) to Indian Air Force".

Meanwhile, Saraswat also said that the DRDO has conducted a flight of "guided bomb". "It's a bomb which can fly for about 40-50 or even more kilometres in a guided mode and it can be released from an aircraft," he said

He said the guided bomb is a totally indigenous effort, from designing, development and realisation including explosive content in them, as also guidance and control.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Gurinder P » 30 Jan 2013 05:06

Now that the Desi AWACS is back to life, I was wondering what platform would be used to support the Radars and other detection gears. I can see a benefit for putting the gear on an Ilyushin platform because of the infrastructure already built for that aircraft, but I believe the Airbus and Boeing aircraft can provide better endurance, efficiency and reliability over the IL platforms, though at a more premium price. I was also thinking that the MTA might be a contender. What do you guys think?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby SaiK » 30 Jan 2013 05:21

keep all options open.. go for the ones which gives best deal available - meaning technology etc., and more if india can base some of parts and components manufacturing, especially critical areas. long goal is we need to establish boeing or lm in desh. what ever little pieces here there to step up is always welcome, but should come within the scope of mission objectives.


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