Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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NRao
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 28 Apr 2014 20:41

But since you have brought it up. How Many operators of the C-130J (brand new gen of plane and sub sytems) have crashed their plane within months of acquiring them.


I think there are many dimensions to this particular very tragic accident.

For one *I do not think* there are too many C-130J-30s out there: US, the UK, Canada and India. ?????

This plane is designed for SpOps, so I wonder how many out there practice such maneuvers.

I would guess that most, if not all, risks are calculated. But then when one of them goes badly wrong, then it skews the data badly. After all SpOps is about risks, calculated, nonetheless risks.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Apr 2014 23:55

rkhanna wrote:But since you have brought it up. How Many operators of the C-130J (brand new gen of plane and sub sytems) have crashed their plane within months of acquiring them. How many were maintenance issues and pilot error.


and you answer your question with:

But honestly that is not even the issue. If these C-130's were practising SOF insertion / flying their accident rates WILL be higher as they are doing far more dangerous flying.

However, your opinion is yours and mine is mine so lets just agree to disagree.


I think you need to understand something about the IAF, their training regimen is far more arduous and steep than many other AF WW. Its because of two factors - our neighborhood threat perception and secondly, because IAF has limited very high tech platforms and seeks to operationalize the force multipliers asap rather than take a slow and steady route. This means the learning curve will be steep and such accidents may unfortunately occur.

Check out how many hours the Il-78 tankers flew and how surprised international observers were, when IAF deployed them to Alaska for Cope Thunder. Similarly, go back to '71 and you will have IAF veterans reminisce about their non stop Su-7 sorties so much the Russians were shocked, but it came in handy during the war. Back to the present, the IAF Flankers wiped the floor with USAF F-15Cs when latter underestimated the former. At KKD, later in the next tranche of exercises, the F-16 pilots remarked that even senior pilots were still pulling the hours but as flight commanders for tactics in the WSO position.

Net, don't underestimate the IAF. They may have a lot of ageing equipment, and sometimes, limited finances force harsh choices and bad outcomes. But overall, the IAF is a disciplined, serious force which is very strict on processes and doesn't compromise on its training standards.

Within months of getting those C-130s, crews are already training on actual deployment/operational usage. Not slowly ramping up. That is what this accident also reveals. Measured risks are taken and sometimes they don't pan out.

In short, accident or no accident, its likely, in a years time, the entire IAF C-130 fleet will be fully mission ready across a range of criteria. Not slowly ramping up with limited proficiency.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Apr 2014 00:28

indranilroy wrote:.
Havn't read a more churlish and TFTA comment like this for some time.


Hari Saduji has a long record of such comments.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 29 Apr 2014 01:28

^^^^^
:rotfl:
Excellent link Rahul M; made my day; many thanks

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Hari Sud » 29 Apr 2014 07:37

Sarcasm will not help. Advance arguments for or against, that will help.

Air Force has to clean up its act. You cannot drop a $300 plane to the ground be not questioned.

Air Force wishes you to forget the incident and will order another plane.

Do you remember how many MIG 21 fell to the ground. No other country's Air Force has that record.

Since the Marshall's were never questioned thoroughly they kept going their merry way and kept blaming on bad plane or bad trainers etc. etc.

Even today parts from China in C-130 were blamed initially. Later it was changed to the party line that black boxes were sent to US and we have heard nothing. I believe Marshall's know everything they just not wish to level with the tax payers.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 29 Apr 2014 07:45

Hard Sud is correct. There must be greater professionalism and accountability in the armed forces. Losing hardware (especially equipment vital to national security) worth hundreds of millions of dollars in peace time is a national shame. Unlike the example of the Navy, did anyone from the airforce take responsibility for the loss? Is this Chalta Hai or we'll buy more attitude professional?
Last edited by Vivek K on 29 Apr 2014 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 29 Apr 2014 07:46

Indians must demand more from their leadership. Make them act their roles.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Apr 2014 08:19

Indians must demand more from their leadership. Make them act their roles.


Karma!!!!

Asking Indians to perform their role? Dharma?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 29 Apr 2014 08:39

NRao wrote:
Indians must demand more from their leadership. Make them act their roles.


Karma!!!!

Asking Indians to perform their role? Dharma?

Rao sahab, is that too much to ask?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_22539 » 29 Apr 2014 10:52

^What next, criticism about the dammed scooter helmets? :)

tsarkar
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 29 Apr 2014 11:31

Its meaningless to compare US or UK flight statistics with India. They dont fly in challenging environments like North East or Ladakh air maintenance. Better comparison would be Afghanistan Operations

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 29 Apr 2014 11:43

So it is business as usual to lose an expensive weapon system such as this within a year or so of its acquisition?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 29 Apr 2014 12:33

Yes! One trains like one fights from the first hour. Rather than keep equipment like showpieces. And while procedures were there, but given the sheer intensity of operations, accidents happen.

I only regret the loss of life of the courageous crew.

Some of my fellow Indians keep plastic seat covers of their new cars for months. I discard then at the dealer. The IAF takes them for low level infiltration.

Its organizational ethos. I hope training isnt impacted by this incident. I also hope SOPs are improved and implemented.
Last edited by tsarkar on 29 Apr 2014 12:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_23694 » 29 Apr 2014 12:39

the crash of a newly-acquired C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft is a sensitive issue since lives were lost. So one thing is for sure that the Air force professionals would not do something intentionally that caused the crash.
At the same time C-130J Super Hercules was a new plane and known world over for being the most rugged aircraft . So then where was the problem.
Something definitely went wrong.
If I check the IAF chief comment
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... rcraft-iaf

"He urged everyone to keep abreast with modern developments and technologies for smooth transition and better absorption of modern equipment," the IAF said in a release.

Now who should prepare the IAF professionals for the above ? And if there is something lacking in this front then we have a serious problem.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sattili » 29 Apr 2014 12:46

Vivek K, the irony of your statement is that it fails to understand what is most expensive loss for the country and IAF. Its the loss of aviators that's most costly not that metal aircraft. Aircraft will be replaced with another one, but we cannot bring back those people. Wish if your anguish was more about the lost lives rather than a replaceable piece of hardware, everyone on the forum would agree with you.

Loosing an airplane is a big loss, but that doesn't mean one need to jump into absolute pessimism and call for "learn to fly first". There are instances where planes were lost immediately after their acquisition, heck even on a ferry flight. Can you believe that Indian Navy IL 38s flew accident free for 25 years but 2 of them collided on the fly past? How could you explain a IAF MiG-29 flown by Russian test pilot crashed right after it was upgraded?

Accidents are part of any Airforce's day to day operations. IAF is more aware of that and is absolutely critical about lapses in the air safety. Here is the link for the Golden Jubilee issue of "Aerospace Safety" - IAF's in house safety magazine. http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CE8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Findianairforce.gov.in%2Ffsmagazines%2FApr11.pdf&ei=T1FfU4zrD8-C8gXK2IHAAw&usg=AFQjCNGKeGcG3tGow9cHXcMxrNVqOl4n1g
As you can read from various articles, flight safety is not taken lightly in IAF. Now what is the point of the rhetoric?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Apr 2014 13:28

Hari Sud wrote:Do you remember how many MIG 21 fell to the ground. No other country's Air Force has that record.


No how many?

As for this statement "No other country's Air Force has that record", by hari sud should mean he has checked each and every country's Air Force record.

Just few posts back a BRF article was posted that how difficult it is to get PAF's attrition count. Since hari's statement implies he has checked each and every country's Air Force record; he should provide here the record for china and porkistan....

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby shetty » 29 Apr 2014 13:46


member_20317
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 29 Apr 2014 14:03

Hari Sud wrote:Sarcasm will not help. Advance arguments for or against, that will help.

Air Force has to clean up its act. You cannot drop a $300 plane to the ground be not questioned.

Air Force wishes you to forget the incident and will order another plane.

Do you remember how many MIG 21 fell to the ground. No other country's Air Force has that record.

Since the Marshall's were never questioned thoroughly they kept going their merry way and kept blaming on bad plane or bad trainers etc. etc.

Even today parts from China in C-130 were blamed initially. Later it was changed to the party line that black boxes were sent to US and we have heard nothing. I believe Marshall's know everything they just not wish to level with the tax payers.



Hari Sud ji, F-104 Witwenmacher is what you are looking for.

This should help too.

http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/12/20/mig-21_peoples_fighter_or_plane_dangerous_21167.html

Based on inputs received from family and friends etc. I reached a different conclusion - I expect the professionalism to be pretty high up in all the forces esp. the ops side. IAF has to go even higher because of the nature of the equipment.

Thoda grah chaal vakri ho rakhi hai baaki sab theek hai.

Like we had the Airawat crash and yet came up with a fine AEWC some years later and are now gunning for a full fledged AWACS capability.

Added later: This too should help.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Mig-21-not-widow-maker-but-trusted-flying-companion/articleshow/19891231.cms

Air Commodore (retd) SS Tyagi -

The ace flyer has many anecdotes from his flying days which he says point to the reliability of the MiG-21. "Once when I was at Pathankot airbase in 1978, the technical staff and pilots had a bet on flying 60 sorties in MiG-21s from 7 am to 1.30 pm without getting the aircraft serviced. The losing side was to give the winner 24 bottles of rum. The MiG-21s flew 60 sorties - we would have won the bet except that we were late by just five minutes because a bird interrupted the last sortie. However, in our eyes, the MiG-21 was still a winner. It is a tough call for an aircraft to do so many sorties without a breakdown but it survived the test."


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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby anand_sankar » 29 Apr 2014 23:28

@Hari Sud

I heard you have authored a book -- Standard Operating Procedures For Flying A Desk -- where can it be purchased?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Jaeger » 30 Apr 2014 11:14

MODERATORS --> Hasn't this OT BS gone on for long enough? How does one contact a moderator so that an end is put to this? This is the goddamn AEW&C thread!

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 May 2014 08:25

I have deleted a couple of OT posts, please get back on topic and no more C130 here unless we get its AEW version.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Jun 2014 22:37

I don't know how this can happen. Tenders are out from CAB for 2 test pilots for the AEW&C! :roll: :eek: :x

Karan M
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Jun 2014 23:53

Whats the issue..Seems ok..they are asking for rtd IAF TPs (Indian nationals), see form 2. Looks like IAF cant spare pilots, so they are looking to hire experienced rtd folk, certainly several around, so ok move.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Uttam » 13 Jun 2014 01:22

Karan M wrote:Whats the issue..Seems ok..they are asking for rtd IAF TPs (Indian nationals), see form 2. Looks like IAF cant spare pilots, so they are looking to hire experienced rtd folk, certainly several around, so ok move.


Why a tender and not a job posting?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Jun 2014 01:25

I have 2 problems:

1. I also came to the same conclusions that IAF could not spare TPs for this project. But, how can a national project of utmost importance come to this? A cry-out for help!
2. I am pretty sure that they would have enough internal contacts to get 2 retired TPs who are currently flying (most probably civilian planes). Why does this have to be in public? Ask a company to depute 2 TPs on a contract basis!

This is too lackadaisical an attitude for a project of this nature.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Jun 2014 12:12

Indranil, those are not the only possibilities.

1. I also came to the same conclusions that IAF could not spare TPs for this project. But, how can a national project of utmost importance come to this? A cry-out for help!


There is invariably a push and pull between these programs & IAF deputations. The IAF has no product management or program management office, so there is invariably a challenge in deputing pilots, as versus having them take command assignments, because when they get back, they find themselves out of the career loop. If the IAF is finding it hard to depute pilots from its transport stream, who will certify themselves on the EMB-145 and then stick to the program for several years, this is a worthwhile alternative.

2. I am pretty sure that they would have enough internal contacts to get 2 retired TPs who are currently flying (most probably civilian planes). Why does this have to be in public? Ask a company to depute 2 TPs on a contract basis!

This is too lackadaisical an attitude for a project of this nature.


Hardly lackadaisical, because you are not looking at how Govt organizations have to work. For any procurement of any services or item, they have to hold an open competition, which means a tender, which means advertisements in paper or gazettes. It is the way things are.

So, if CABS decides it needs pilots, and these pilots are (say) organized as part of a company offering these services (many rtd IAF pilots do this), then the right process is to put out a tender.

India even puts out tenders for nuclear plant equipment, and as you have been tracking, detailed subsystems for its programs.
CABS et al are process bound else CAG will skewer them. Now how is that lackadaisical on their part. Its the process.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Jun 2014 19:01

Fair points.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 13 Jun 2014 22:36

1. EMB-145 is a mature platform - 890 units built so far
2. Test pilots are for prototype, not for mature platforms. Embraer modified and certified an existing platform.
3. Embraer sells jets and pilot training/certification services. One cannot sell a jet and not train pilots to fly it.
4. We bought three jets, waited three years and conveniently forgot to 'certify' pilots to fly them?

Something stinks here - Likely some $ hungry scumb*g trying to scuttle desi AEWC by holding back or re-allocating trained pilots.

A public announcement is akin to washing dirty laundry in public. Just shows how bad things are in the 'Imported' air force.

A REDO OF LCA IN THE MAKING

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 14 Jun 2014 00:06

I bow to your knowledge about flight testing aircrafts and radars. Your integrity and patriotism is specially worthy of mention too.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 14 Jun 2014 02:13

I did not intend to make anyone feel bad, we are in this together. We will never change status quo unless we take a hard look at how things are today.

For our size, we have behaved and were treated like a banana republic. Others have marched so far ahead (China, Korea, Japan,....) while we have failed to provide basic necessities to our own people (we have been hardened to show antipathy to our own kind after 1000 years of enslavement).

The status quo is very bad and unless we do something expect more bad things to come. The Augusta Westland deal showed how bad things are - Barack Obama, head of the richest country in the world says AW101 helicopters are expensive, while we buy 12 of them.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Indian_helicopter_bribery_scandal)

The corrupt walk free, smile and mock us by standing for re-election. If their are no consequences then nothing will reign in corruption ever. Winston Churchill will smile from his grave given his prediction on how India will fail-easily corruptible leaders. He mentioned 'goons', wasn't far off 'Gandhi' clan.

Why have their been no prosecutions for even a single corruption case, even when it's obvious who the beneficiaries are? If this continues any longer then people will end it violently aka French revolution.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Misraji » 14 Jun 2014 09:42

indranilroy wrote:I bow to your knowledge about flight testing aircrafts and radars. Your integrity and patriotism is specially worthy of mention too.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 04 Aug 2014 12:29

IAF to be equipped with advance early warning system: Avinash Chander - The Hindu
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will deliver the Advance Early Warning and Control System to the Indian Air Force within six months, according to Avinash Chander, Secretary of the Department of Defence Research and Development, and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister.

Speaking to The Hindu here on Saturday, on the sidelines of the convocation of the National Institute of Technology-Tiruchi, he said the system developed by the DRDO, in collaboration with the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), would help the IAF aircraft detect and track airborne intrusion. The system was tested by the CABS, and the results were highly encouraging. It would be formally handed over to the IAF in December, he said.

Mr. Chander said the DRDO chalked out a plan to involve industries in the research and development ventures to develop sub-systems, devices and components. Some of the important spin-off technologies were related to automobile engineering, lubricants and paints, agro-food, pharmaceuticals and bio-medical instruments. It geared up its research in Nano technology, Information Technology and Biotechnology with a particular reference to application for the defence research and development, he said.


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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vipins » 02 Sep 2014 14:05

Prying plane undergoes flight trials at forward IAF bases
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is expected to receive the first Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system by the end of this year.
The official confirmed that in addition to the air bases in and around Bangalore, the prying plane has already had flight test campaigns in Jamnagar and Agra.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2014 14:26

who has been flying the EMB145 so far?

6 months away from delivery in IOC config, would the IAF pull its pilots and ask CABS to go get their own pilots? sounds strange to me.

or has CABS been paying a couple of embraer company pilots to remain posted in blr and having them fly this thing?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 02 Sep 2014 16:42

^^^ What about ex IAF pilots?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_28640 » 02 Sep 2014 16:56

Extensive testing of the airframe is going on in the garden city.. I myself have seen the bird doing a tight right handed bank and turn some 100-200 feet of the ground.. Was so close to me that it blew little peices of the puff I was eating at a local bakery all over my shirt.. This testing was with the radar load..

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby ravip » 02 Sep 2014 20:42

I have seen this bird couple of times pulling up and heading towards kanakapura road , though it was during 3 week of june. Usullay in the afternoon at 12 to 1.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 02 Sep 2014 20:52

Beautiful pictures from CABs (courtesy Tarmak007).

Click for full resolution.

Image

Image

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby RoyG » 02 Sep 2014 21:13

The sensors and radar itself stick out too much. They need to tone it down with the paint.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 02 Sep 2014 21:26

There is reason why they are not painted.


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