Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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member_28722
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_28722 » 28 Sep 2014 12:35

Indigenous AESA is the best thing about this development

Questions for experts:
How tough is it to go from what we have developed for awacs to aesa radar for Su30mki/MMRCA/LCA/FGFA

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby udy » 28 Sep 2014 13:23

^^^^ Project Uttam- we should have one in 2-3 yrs time. Hopefully we will have details (proto?) at AI 2015
Liquid cooling system

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2014 16:27

Great news!

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Sep 2014 16:52



Hopefully more are ordered.
http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/?id=194&h=IAF-for-more-Embraer-Legacy-jets
The Embraers have served well in IAF service and have proven to be a pleasant surprise for maintenance crew. The Embraers are complemented in the squadron by 3 Boeing 737-based BBJs. Embraer has also got a substantial amount of business from the Indian airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) programme, in which it has been contracted to supply three (one already delivered and in flight test) modified ERJ 145 airframes, with business prospect of supplying 20 more in the medium term as the IAF's requirements fructify.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 Sep 2014 17:04

The ToI link

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 897554.cms

shows a grainy image of a P3C Orion. I don't know if it's related to the article but the Paki navy also flies them

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby kit » 28 Sep 2014 19:00

JaiS wrote:DRDO ready to deliver AEW&C to Air Force


Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is ready to deliver the Brazilian Embraer aircraft-based, indigenously built Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) to the Indian Air Force as soon as it is ready to receive it. At the moment, the IAF is training its personnel who can operate the systems of the aircraft, at Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS). The process should be over by February of next year.

Dr K Tamilmani, the director general of aeronautical systems and Dr S Christopher, programme director (AEW&C) and director, CABS said on Thursday that the laboratory has developed an indigenous Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that has been fitted on the aircraft and is actually functioning for almost a year. The air-to-air function of the radar has been tested and certified, while air-to-sea functions are being tested.

Christopher stated that the ‘technical readiness level’ of the AEW&C is of the order of eight on a scale of ten. In a crowded environment, the aircraft system can ‘correlate, identify, classify and threat response of 500 airborne targets can be tracked, out of which 16 enemy targets can be simultaneously designated.’

There are five work-stations where operators can sit and work, with one being solely for dedicated for ‘communication support measure.’ The aircraft can loiter for five hours independently and with refueling, another four hours can be added to the sortie. It will need some friendly fighter aircraft support, with satellite communication link directly to Vayu Bhavan, IAF headquarters.

The Embraer system has data links, voice communication facility, 32 fighter aircrafts can remain connected while in air, and the ‘air support picture’ created by the operators. It can reach altitudes of 25,000 to 30,000 with a range of 300 kms. Significantly, the AESA radar will have ‘look down’ ability. The radar has 1,257 amplifiers.





Does that mean a JSTARS capability ? In that case the whole of POK militant camps will be toast !

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 28 Sep 2014 19:22

kit wrote:Does that mean a JSTARS capability ? In that case the whole of POK militant camps will be toast !


I may be mistaken, but I took that to mean that they can spot low flying aircraft and cruise missiles which may be using terrain to hide below the coverage of the high-flying AEW.

Not sure if they mean that they can sort through the noise on static targets and find stationary ones like a dedicated JSTARS...

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Sep 2014 19:44

Right you are Vivek.

Kit - JSTARs is different from an AEW&C. JSTARS type aircraft are dedicated to ground targets and use SAR for static, and correlate it with GMTI for moving taregts.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_28788 » 28 Sep 2014 19:45

JaiS wrote:DRDO ready to deliver AEW&C to Air Force


Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is ready to deliver the Brazilian Embraer aircraft-based, indigenously built Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) to the Indian Air Force as soon as it is ready to receive it. At the moment, the IAF is training its personnel who can operate the systems of the aircraft, at Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS). The process should be over by February of next year.

Dr K Tamilmani, the director general of aeronautical systems and Dr S Christopher, programme director (AEW&C) and director, CABS said on Thursday that the laboratory has developed an indigenous Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that has been fitted on the aircraft and is actually functioning for almost a year. The air-to-air function of the radar has been tested and certified, while air-to-sea functions are being tested.

Christopher stated that the ‘technical readiness level’ of the AEW&C is of the order of eight on a scale of ten. In a crowded environment, the aircraft system can ‘correlate, identify, classify and threat response of 500 airborne targets can be tracked, out of which 16 enemy targets can be simultaneously designated.’

There are five work-stations where operators can sit and work, with one being solely for dedicated for ‘communication support measure.’ The aircraft can loiter for five hours independently and with refueling, another four hours can be added to the sortie. It will need some friendly fighter aircraft support, with satellite communication link directly to Vayu Bhavan, IAF headquarters.

The Embraer system has data links, voice communication facility, 32 fighter aircrafts can remain connected while in air, and the ‘air support picture’ created by the operators. It can reach altitudes of 25,000 to 30,000 with a range of 300 kms. Significantly, the AESA radar will have ‘look down’ ability. The radar has 1,257 amplifiers.




How the induction of this system will help IAF at theater level(in specific terms) given its present force structure?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 28 Sep 2014 20:50

@kit--there is nothing like a POK militant camp..the militants/terrorists are sharing quarters with the army/local villagers...do u think we require a airborne platform to locate them? they are well known to the indians..

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 28 Sep 2014 23:41

The DRDO version seems progressing well. Time to order another 6 more of those. It will help with up time tremendously.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 29 Sep 2014 00:08

I have not come across additional orders for Embraer jets. An order placed today will mean deliveries at least 1.5 years out as their is a fair amount of pre-delivery tests (my guess).

Unlikely we will be operating two+ jets until 2017 minimum-another showcase for IAF's gap in planning or foresight as our neighbors sport 2x+ jets.

Seems like high flying Delhites are salivating for larger Euro airframes - throwing a wrench in operational preparedness as it will be another 5 years before a expensive-euro import shows face. And we will be able to afford at most 2~3 of those 500 million $ each airframes (another guess-given Euro/American affinity for dishing out minimum 1 billion $ bills).

Start Sarcasm - Eerily familiar to good old days of Maharaja importing Rollys-Royces while denizens were starving or not even have a running water/toilets/...!

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Sep 2014 01:28

FYI only.

Jan, 2014 ::
Indigenous 'eye-in-the-sky' being developed for Indian Air Force


An indigenous AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System), that enables the Indian Air Force (IAF) look up to 400 km into Pakistan and China while remaining in the safety of its own airspace, should be available by about 2020, its developer says.


Assuming that the air craft remains X kms inside Indian air space, this radar is expected to have a range of X + 400 kms!!!!

Avinash Chander, head of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Scientific Adviser to the defence minister, told India Strategic (http://www.indiastrategic.in ) in an interview that some initial capabilities had been achieved and it is now natural to progress towards creating this tremendous force-multiplier for the IAF, which currently has three AWACS and has projected a requirement of 10 in the next decade.

The radar, the key element of the AWACS, will be a rotating rotodome with electronic scanning, and as the space requirements for the equipment are considerable, DRDO was looking at either the Boeing-767 or Airbus A- 330 as the platform.

There have been some discussions with their manufacturers on what can be done. Once the specifications are frozen and government sanction obtained, an Expression of Interest would be invited from them, and then an RfP (Request for Proposals - or tender) would be issued.

The development of the radars and sensors would continue in parallel. After that, the key task and challenge would be their integration on the aircraft.

"Our design works are progressing but the key is the integration of the equipment on the aircraft," Avinash Chander observed.

The three IAF AWACS comprise the Israeli Phalcon radar mounted aboard a Russian IL-76 aircraft.

Two smaller Airborne Early Warning Systems fitted on Embraer 145 aircraft should also be with IAF by mid-2014.

But numbers are important as not all aircraft can be in the air all the time and IAF has large areas to scan all around India.

As for the rotodome, Chander explained that the static radars, which scan electronically, have some limitation of a blind area as it is fitted on the fuselage of an aircraft. With a rotating dish - or antenna - it can cover 360 degrees.

The radar being developed by DRDO will have both physical rotation and electronic rotation of the radar waves, Avinash Chander said.

Notably, as both the aircraft being looked at are civilian airliners, their maintenance will not be a problem as there are a large number of engineering and technical personnel available in India. The choice of payload in terms of weight and configuration would eventually help decide the choice of the aircraft as well.

The cost of an AWACS depends upon the choice of the platform, that is, the aircraft, onboard systems, effort in technical integration and the numbers required to defray the development expenses, estimated at around $300 million (Rs.18.5 billion) per fully loaded aircraft.

It would be cheaper perhaps initially to buy a ready made system like the Phalcon but if the country is looking at control of technology that the Indian forces would use, then it is imperative to develop it with indigenous systems to the extent possible and integrate it at home. That would raise the cost by at least 25 per cent but ensure a strategic independence in operating it.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 06 Nov 2014 21:19

What is the status? Transferred over to IAF yet?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 12 Nov 2014 11:09

SBajwa wrote:What is the status? Transferred over to IAF yet?
Not yet... IAF crew is getting trained... two birds would be transferred to IAF, one retained for DRDO-CABS testing.
Its high time they order another 5-6 birds from Embraer. Hope MoD prods IAF to take a more pragmatic stand.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2014 12:23

we need to order and build atleast another 10 of the EMB145 models before embarking on any funding for some bigger platform. this is a viable platform and must be pursued as the gap filler of choice. we will get 5 of these for the price and delays of 2 uber birds.

the JSTARS radar should be on a dedicated plane like EMB145 only to keep things simple and avoid overly complex integration and dev challenges.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 05 Dec 2014 05:09

Technical details of secondary surveillance radar onboard.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/viewTender.jsp?paramMicro=7892

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby member_26622 » 08 Dec 2014 06:28

I have a question about why having the Desi AWACS radar on a truck mounted platform does not make sense?

Thinking that it (or a dumbed down version i.e. less emitters) could be used as a 'mobile' battlefield radar - compact, low power requirements, commonality come to mind. We could arrange it in a triangle fashion and get 360 degree coverage. Big win is commonality and frequent upgrade potential.

Just thinking out loud as had seen a recent IAF or Army tender for mobile radars.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Dec 2014 06:43

nik wrote:I have a question about why having the Desi AWACS radar on a truck mounted platform does not make sense?

Thinking that it (or a dumbed down version i.e. less emitters) could be used as a 'mobile' battlefield radar - compact, low power requirements, commonality come to mind. We could arrange it in a triangle fashion and get 360 degree coverage. Big win is commonality and frequent upgrade potential.

Just thinking out loud as had seen a recent IAF or Army tender for mobile radars recently.


You are thinking about LSTAR test bed like platform. There are few reasons why adapting it for ground use may be challenging compared to a clean sheet design like Arudhra (with more or less the same specs):

a) Form Factor: It is designed to be aerodynamic and for a platform that can reorient itself, unlike a ground based radar which requires the platform to orient it.
b) Cooling: It's an air cooled array, which will require forced air draft for effectiveness. Arudhra is liquid cooled leading to a much more compact array.
c) Ruggedisation for road transport.

Ashwini Radar fits the role better than an LSTAR sized radar.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sivab » 11 Jan 2015 03:06

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DRD ... -ebook.pdf

Airborne Early Warning and Control Programme
The indigenous AEW&C system programme encompasses the design and development of a
number of systems, viz., long range surveillance electronically scanned array radar for detection and
tracking of targets, secondary surveillance radar for Identification of Friend and Foe (IFF), Line-of-Sight
(LOS) and Satellite Communication (SATCOM) data links and systems for signal intelligence. These
systems developed by various labs of DRDO have been ground tested, flight qualified, and integrated
on the AEW&C aircraft which has been modified specifically for the purpose. The mission system was
functionally interfaced with the aircraft and all the systems were tested. More than 100 sorties using two
aircraft have been completed. The project is on course and system verification and validation trials are
progressing satisfactorily.
Currently, two aircraft have been received.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vipins » 25 Feb 2015 21:49

AEW&C from AI 15
Click

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2015 22:49

thus far there is no interior photo released of our phalcons or EMB145.

for E3 there is interior footage from the 'operation red flag' video.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby nevin » 25 Feb 2015 23:01


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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2015 23:02

Singha, what saar..

Phalcon (pics are from IAF release @induction)
http://indianarmspics.blogspot.in/2009/ ... awacs.html

CABS AEW&C: Embraer
(Despite Tarmaks words, those are the CABS ones.. just check the purpose developed Operator stations versus what we say this time at AI, same ones)
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01/fu ... o-fly.html

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2015 23:06

Embraer testrig here as well..with IAF crew
http://www.aame.in/2013/06/drdo-looks-f ... build.html

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 26 Feb 2015 00:54

Was the AEW&C project just a test/tech demo project? I don't understand why more of the same platform is not being ordered if IAF is satisfied. Just having two such aircraft flying doesn't make much sense. And IAF has been strangely silent on the entire project. What are their plans?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby John » 26 Feb 2015 00:56

For IAF MMRCA seems to be main focus and till something happens in that front everything else seems to have been shoved to sidelines.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2015 00:58

John, exactly.

BTW, these are the interiors of the AEW&C
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8128/c7qq.jpg

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2015 01:12

5 operator consoles?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2015 01:19

yep, 5

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2015 09:28

Thanks Karan.

Any interest from Navy? I wonder how long this bird can stay in air.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 26 Feb 2015 10:01

Karan M wrote:yep, 5


Most likely one console is dedicated to radar maintenance and control because the integration rig shows 4 consoles. Those 4 consoles are where each operator is handling a 90 degree arena. A lot of workload per operator.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2015 10:43

Integration rig has 5 consoles. One isnt visible thanks to the angle the pics are taken at. There are three on the right, two on the left. The AEW&C covers 270 degrees. The Phalcon and follow on Project India AWACS are for 360 degree coverage. Typically, the aircraft will fly a racetrack pattern per previous reports, with the active antenna side facing region of interest, well within a safe zone.

The workload will be high for sure, but its being mitigated by three things - high level of automation, IAF wanted automated battle management & intercept functions with the ability to handle upto 16 other fighters with data and voice (albeit this will require manual intervention to transmit data).

Also, Data fusion - the ESM, COMINT and radar data are all sensor fused. So each person will see a single version of the truth. This incidentally is what sets this platform aside from some of the others with discrete functions & dedicated operators. This is more like the newer JSF/Rafale/Su-35 approaches.

Last, there is a GES (Ground Exploitation System) with 2-3 additional consoles to assist as well.

As to how the consoles would be split up (each can handle all the tasks, ie they are multifunction), I suspect there will be a couple for primary systems (radar+esm+comint, redundancy), one for mission commander, one for battle management, one for systems management (if necessary). They could have put more seats in for sure (there is a significant rest area with seven seats) but I suspect the IAF was satisfied with this arrangement as with IFR, rest areas endurance should be decent.
Image

The Erieye one is significantly more cramped.
Image

Larger Phalcon is a true airborne battle management system as it has 11 work stations and can dedicate more crew to managing aircraft packages. PAF ZDK-03 has 9 workstations.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2015 10:46

The important thing to note about the AEW&CS is that it's not just the radar and IFF. This platform has an ESM suite usually carried by much larger platforms with full band coverage, and also a COMINT suite, plus SATCOM plus voice/data links to LOS platforms. And IFR. On the software side, IAF wanted it to have a battle management and intercept capability as well, which it does.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2015 11:36

There are a couple of advantages in the erieye config. Work sharing is easier and the commander can run from screen to screen easier. They also have more console space. Although he possibly couldn't do too much of standing and directing, given the sloped ceilings. But this inside view is pretty awesome and the fitment is great as well. if needed they can add another extra screen quite easily as well in the usual stacked console style.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2015 11:43

I am seeing 13 consoles in the phalcon (12 + 1 Radio console uhf/vhf/comms picture separately??) there is enough space behind each space for people to squeeze in and see whats going on and the three sleepers are cool. Perhaps there is a nice galley and some 10 extra chairs. Is there a cut away model of the phalcon? That shows all of it?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2015 11:46

The cramped setup and the stooping stuff (Errieye) is not conducive for long ops for sure.. there is literally no space to even stand comfortably. Console space, I dunno whether the extra screens add up.. because the modern MFDs allow mutiple pics together & sensor fusion means you need fewer consoles rather than mixing and matching between a bunch. E3 is also straightforward (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uONlxVi7sPc/maxresdefault.jpg)
The ZDK-03 is a good spacious layout (PAF) and is a virtual copy of the Erieye Interior (definitely PAF ask) but the basic platform is not as comprehensive as our AEW&CS, no mention of ESM, Comint etc arrays.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Feb 2015 13:49

the interior of the Ereyie does look very inhospitable. add in the pindi chana and nihari discharges and the living atmosphere could need a submarine style CO2 scrubber in a gondola housing outside.

our EMB is the better layout.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2015 14:07

Ooh AEW on a prop. This is going to be fun. Matching jet and prop speeds for optimal performance for sentry duty is going to be hard. So almost all their shiny f-16s are going to be in protection duty during war for these aew birds. What are they going to use for war?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Feb 2015 14:15

Anther question, can Turbo props generate enough power for powerful radar, and is K-9 Karakoram an AESA or a Mechanical radar?


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