Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Sep 2019 12:36

Is choice for A330 linked with MRTT ??

dmun · Post by **dmun** » 15 Sep 2019 13:02

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... cs-efforts

Six next-generation longer-endurance AWACS aircraft based on the Airbus A330 platform were proposed years ago and received approval and clearance in principle. They are awaiting a final nod from the ministry of defense. Larger and offering a higher operating altitude than the EMB-145s, the first two A330 platforms are part of the first phase of the program and will be fitted with an indigenous radar. Based on negotiations related to the first two A330s, four additional A330s are in the pipeline. Easwaran said work on “critical technology for the A330 AWACS had started,” and he hopes “it will be cleared in a few months.”

While the requirement is for at least two more, the Il-76 platform’s reliability and spares are posing a problem. DRDO’s Airbus C295-based AEW&C concept remains in the initial planning stages and has not been formally proposed to the government

Will the radar from the EMB 145 be a straight fix on the C-295 provided the AWAC specific modifications are done ? Both have the same max take off weight but there lengths are different. EMB 145 is longer.

There was a news article which mentioned the primary drawback of EMB 145 was it did not have the additional power that all the equipment requires. That was posted here on BR.

Also there was a article which mentioned that IAF was interested in merging the AWACS and MRTT into the same platform.

Another article :

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/in ... nts-04855/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Sep 2019 15:22

Can never be a straight fix. Will take a lot of time, effort, testing but far faster than developing an AWACS from scratch.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 15 Sep 2019 19:20

How will it be a straight fix? The EMB 145 is a two sided array whereas the C-295 is a triangular one.

To avoid a costly single vendor situation with A330 for MRTT and AWACS, GOI should look at the 767 family as well, which could work out to be cheaper as it is already mil-optimized and has economies of scale thanks to USAF.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 15 Sep 2019 19:38

We need to remember that Airbus was the winner of both the rounds of the US MRTT bids. The program was canceled because the politicians did not get their preferred vendor in the winning spot. A-330 MRTT is a fine aircraft. Its combat-proven and already used by over a half a dozen countries. India has done enough single vendor acquisitions. Remember we just inducted the AH-64 Apache.

My guess this will go the same way.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Sep 2019 19:45

Bart S wrote:How will it be a straight fix? The EMB 145 is a two sided array whereas the C-295 is a triangular one.

To avoid a costly single vendor situation with A330 for MRTT and AWACS, GOI should look at the 767 family as well, which could work out to be cheaper as it is already mil-optimized and has economies of scale thanks to USAF.

C295 AEW will have single array in a Rotodome.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 15 Sep 2019 19:49

sankum wrote:
Bart S wrote:How will it be a straight fix? The EMB 145 is a two sided array whereas the C-295 is a triangular one.

To avoid a costly single vendor situation with A330 for MRTT and AWACS, GOI should look at the 767 family as well, which could work out to be cheaper as it is already mil-optimized and has economies of scale thanks to USAF.
C295 AEW will have single array in a Rotodome.

Aren't those old tech and phased out? Even the circular shaped aircraft structures have triangular AESA arrays these days with no mechanical rotation.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Sep 2019 19:53

Will result in lower cost and 360 degree coverage.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Sep 2019 20:32

Tx.Pushkar, but the A-330s as a platform are far more expensive than IL-76s which could be the standard platform for AWACS, AEW, tankers and other specialised ELINT aircraft.We need larger numbers too.
Pak will possess 10 Saab Eriye AEW aircraft eventually. Enough for their needs. We too need numbers of larger AWACS plus AEW aircraft on EMB type platforms given out huge landmass to defend from air attack. Pak. is investing wisely in numbets of aircraft both combat, etc. to counter our superior quality platforms of which we have limited number.

dmun · Post by **dmun** » 15 Sep 2019 21:06

We need a 2 pronged approach. If the IAF is alright with the performance constraints of a C-295 based AWACS, get a subset of Netra team modify the 2 sided array for C-295. Have the senior team work on the larger AWACS India.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Sep 2019 23:03

In all these force multiplier and harsh realities of fighting 2 front war talk, the other part of real politic is being missed.

When you have half a trillion dollar foreign currency reserve and a economic growth rate of close to 8% (undoubtedly in top 3 global), do you expect any foreign vendor not to go for the jugular in terms of tot, life cycle cost? Do you expect any "national security provide", be it russia, france, sweeden, swiss, us, germany, israel - not to get their pound of flesh via threat to supply the opponent?

The only solution is what china did - negotiated from a position of strength and strictly restricted imports with hard bargain for core technology (sometimes they didn't go for the top notch supplier but went with one which offered technology) and simultaneously read the riot act to pla to make do with indigenous weapon, come what may. Their security nightmare was no less than ours - they had serious border issue with every neighbor that includes the mad bear itself (and unlike china-india border with himalayan range, russia-china border is quiet easy to invade from either side)

Anyone talking about need for booming economy as precondition for desi mic is neglecting one basic economy fact - national economy has 4 pillars - consumer spending, FDI, govt spending and export.
Any money spend on desi mic directly via psu or indirectly via incentive to private orgs is govt spend and actually adds to economy.

Today, when there is a talk of slowdown in indian economy, I would double down on spending more on DRDO/PSU/private MIC cutting down on export.

And we can not change the past but can definitely change the future. Time to read the riot act err. gently influence the indian military to increase indian value add in capex is NOW.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Sep 2019 23:12

If it was on me, i would give a strict instruction to MoD to start accounting for indigenisation based on deep indian value add strictly in cost terms; all other measures viz num of components, systems etc hide the criticality and also allows the shenanigans like mazgaon importing some of the scorpion items separately from foreign suppliers and passing them off as indigenous. All final suppliers would need to get the indian value add from their sub component suppliers and pass it on and so on and so forth. That would be the first step.

Once we have a fair idea of how much the actual indian value add is, improving that value should be made as part of an officer's ACR. Without significant improvement within their tenure, no general should be able to go beyond a rank.

Today, in the name of indigenisation, a bunch of firms in NCR region imports even the simple insignificant components like screw, ball bearing, washer etc from foreign suppliers - adds a hefty markup and supply them to armed forces. Almost all of them are in the business because they are benami of retired faujis and babus. Everyone is in the know but all keep quiet lest be called a traitor. The entire procurement blame game to MoD, MoF etc (and they are not dudh ka dhula either and i am not absolve them in any which way) is to hide the lack of intention to reform within the armed forces.

Until and unless this lack is addressed in a systematic manner via HR process within armed forces, no amount of external influence , be it a either a procedural reform like DPP or more budgetary support via either booming economy or more allocation in terms of gdp percentage will solve the issue.

Our economy has actually been booming in the last 2 decade. While we do have a few poster child desi system like aakash, pinaka etc, in the overall we have become more dependent on foreign suppliers, not less.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 19 Sep 2019 16:54

Check out the aircraft in th background!! Interesting state it is in.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE0dDJpU4AA ... name=large

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Sep 2019 18:09

Heartbreaking we didnt finish off 8-10 of them in one shot.
Will now have to make do with only these 3 till the desi AWACs comes online atleast a decade later

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 19 Sep 2019 19:13

why cant we buy EMB through third party? Same as direct in all intent, but to circumvent congress related bribery.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 19 Sep 2019 21:29

Agree. Everyone and their naani know that airframe supplier had to "deal" to win contract with the previous govt. It is rather unfair to put the blame exclusively on them. Have RM issue a "kadi ninda" and a token fine for unethical practices and get the program back online.

fanne wrote:why cant we buy EMB through third party? Same as direct in all intent, but to circumvent congress related bribery.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Sep 2019 00:46

Arre baba, that is the current state of the aircraft. They regularly take the antenna off to conduct maintenance tests. The enclose is composite and has to be routinely checked.

If you browse DRDO tenders, you will find the tenders for the maintenance of the aircraft.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2019 00:53

Nalla Baalu wrote:Agree. Everyone and their naani know that airframe supplier had to "deal" to win contract with the previous govt. It is rather unfair to put the blame exclusively on them. Have RM issue a "kadi ninda" and a token fine for unethical practices and get the program back online.

fanne wrote:why cant we buy EMB through third party? Same as direct in all intent, but to circumvent congress related bribery.

May I point out one unpopular point, though..the aircraft didn't meet IAF ASR requirements, but was chosen nonetheless (vs other better alternatives). Do we really know that they didn't (cough, cough) adjust it so that they won?
DRDO, IAF etc are along for the ride in these decisions, and we need the Embraer (as you said, to get the program back online). But just pointing out that it may not be unfair for them to share some blame as well.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Sep 2019 01:27

Bala Vignesh wrote:Check out the aircraft in th background!! Interesting state it is in.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE0dDJpU4AA ... name=large

Thought cloud of RM "Is my chin better than the NLCA's"

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Sep 2019 13:15

I think it's best to use the opportunity to move to a more capable platform, considering that the Embraer fails to meet the ASQR, and select between the Gulfstream or the Bombardier, whichever one makes more sense.

Personally I would like to continue with Embraer, ready product and BRICS alliance and all that. But if it's not something the IAF can swallow then best to move away now and get more Netra in service. We cannot afford more than a few Airbus AWACS, without or without ART mission included so makes sense to get more of these defensive picket line radars, as some put it, with limited offensive capabilities.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Sep 2019 13:16

Cybaru wrote: Thought cloud of RM "Is my chin better than the NLCA's"

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Sep 2019 13:32

Bala Vignesh wrote:I think it's best to use the opportunity to move to a more capable platform, considering that the Embraer fails to meet the ASQR, and select between the Gulfstream or the Bombardier, whichever one makes more sense.

Personally I would like to continue with Embraer, ready product and BRICS alliance and all that. But if it's not something the IAF can swallow then best to move away now and get more Netra in service. We cannot afford more than a few Airbus AWACS, without or without ART mission included so makes sense to get more of these defensive picket line radars, as some put it, with limited offensive capabilities.

Time to focus on developing on a common mid-sized platform like the C-295. Netra has become a limited lab project instead of an actual production run because of the platform. It is totally inefficient because of our bureaucracy to run though these acquisitions, especially with phoren firms, for each and every project.

Decide on a mid-sized platform that allows numbers and build our force multipliers off that. Ideally, that platform should be MII. Deviation from this platform would be considered only for high end systems that we can afford only in small numbers like Phalcons or the upcoming AWACS on large jets.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2019 17:17

^^ I agree. A single design which could be multi-use. But after todays announcement on tax cuts for corporates, and a possible revenue shortfall of Rs 1.5 Lakh crores, the IAFs desire for more capex, is not going to happen.
I just hope the 83 LCA Mk1A are ordered.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 20 Sep 2019 17:47

Was unaware of this.

Karan M wrote: May I point out one unpopular point, though..the aircraft didn't meet IAF ASR requirements, but was chosen nonetheless (vs other better alternatives).
...

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Sep 2019 18:54

Karan M wrote:^^ I agree. A single design which could be multi-use. But after todays announcement on tax cuts for corporates, and a possible revenue shortfall of Rs 1.5 Lakh crores, the IAFs desire for more capex, is not going to happen.
I just hope the 83 LCA Mk1A are ordered.

This would make the C295 based AEW the best option, considering most of the money would come back into Indian economy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2019 19:44

How, bar some structural work, most would basically be CKD-SKD kind of stuff. Plus the upfront capex.

Part of me wishes GOI just gave the fiscal rectitude stuff a few years of bye-bye, and focused on growth as the primary driver. Would do wonders for desi industry especially if MII is partly kicked off by mass orders for Akash, Nag, Pinaka, Tejas, ATAGs, Uttam, etc.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 20 Sep 2019 20:30

Pretty sad commentary of state of things back then. I wager the developer and intended user were given Hobson's choice: take it or leave it. Developer in this case unwittingly becomes punching bag for auditors.

The Week's Article on CAG Observations

Nalla Baalu wrote: Was unaware of this.
Karan M wrote: May I point out one unpopular point, though..the aircraft didn't meet IAF ASR requirements, but was chosen nonetheless (vs other better alternatives).
...

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 20 Sep 2019 22:23

Nalla Baalu wrote:

*Rubs eyes*

A rare sighting! Could it really be...?

Looks like someone is taking great efforts to revive historic BRF assets!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Sep 2019 00:36

NB, i closed the report as i think you may have misunderstood Mihirs post. I thought he was referring to the fact that you posted after a long while, that's it, pretty innocuous. He can clarify.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 21 Sep 2019 01:45

Mihir wrote:
Nalla Baalu wrote:
*Rubs eyes*

A rare sighting! Could it really be...?

Looks like someone is taking great efforts to revive historic BRF assets!

Apologies gents for crying wolf!

I blame my current bout of posts to despair post-Sept 7th.

Cheers onlee!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Sep 2019 02:22

Its ok, no big deal. BTW, what happened on September 7th.

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 21 Sep 2019 02:24

Vikram Lander's uncontrolled descent.

Karan M wrote:Its ok, no big deal. BTW, what happened on September 7th.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 21 Sep 2019 08:08

@Nalla Baalu, cheers boss! Good to have you back!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 22 Nov 2019 16:34

Two A330 for AWACS may be approved next week
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 177176.cms

NEW DELHI: Impressed with the performance of home-developed early warning aircraft during the Balakot air strikes earlier this year, the government is set to speed up the indigenous programme with the acquisition of two larger platforms that will give wider radar and surveillance coverage.

The ‘eye in the sky’ project — an aircraft-mounted radar that can look deep into enemy territory and direct combat assets for a strike — is set to get a boost with the defence ministry likely to clear .. next week the acquisition of two Airbus A330 platforms that will be modified by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

India currently operates the domestically developed ‘Netra’ airborne early warning and control aircraft, two of which were used during the Balakot strikes. The Netra aircraft were used to safely guide Mirage 2000 fighter jets into Pakistani airspace to drop smart bombs that targeted the terror training camp at Balakot.

However, subsequent operations and the stand-off with Pakistan that lasted several weeks brought out the severe shortage of such aerial platforms that can be used to detect incoming enemy aircraft from well within Indian airspace. India currently operates two of the Netra aircraft and three IL76 ‘Phalcon’ systems that were jointly developed with Israel and Russia.

Officials said the air force has been unimpressed with the loitering time of the Phalcons. Though the aircraft have a wider range of coverage than the Netra, it is unable to stay airborne long enough to meet operational requirements.

chola · Post by **chola** » 22 Nov 2019 16:49

^^^ I hope it happens next week as reported. Two A330s would be a massive upgrade over the Embraers in endurance and range. First time I heard about poor Phalcon loitering time though.

The ET says it would speed up the Netra program? But these are for the bigger AWACS program with the chapati and not the balance beam like the Netra no?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Nov 2019 17:40

I think so, these are 360 degree coverage.

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Nov 2019 23:32

DRDO has said, chapatti is apparently ready. There has been no official confirmation is the radar is GaN based.

When this comes online, it will one hell of TFTA asset. A high powered GaN AWACS would lay provide the eyes in the sky in our BMD umbrella.

I think it is also finally dawn on IAF that 2 additional Phalcon is not going through..

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Nov 2019 23:42

IAF also must have forced CABS to complete Netra development, before seeking approval for A330.

We get this news just after the second Netra was delivered.

kit · Post by **kit** » 23 Nov 2019 00:16

*deleted

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Nov 2019 00:37

if one has trouble - we have 50% of the units down... Terrible idea. Too expensive.. too big.. Great for Airbus, dalals, not so much for us. We need more platforms factoring in the number of locations we need to deploy.

Go with 10 C295W based and add the other two phalcons in work.
+ 8 jet based platforms 5 il76 + 3 EMB145
+ 10 cheaper round the year platforms.