Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 09 Sep 2020 02:59

At this point, the C295W will be the fastest route for the new AEW. CCS has already approved and the first few in the AEW config can be bought directly from airbus. This allows for decent continuity as well.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Sep 2020 21:43

Cybaru wrote:At this point, the C295W will be the fastest route for the new AEW. CCS has already approved and the first few in the AEW config can be bought directly from airbus. This allows for decent continuity as well.


Does the C295W have enough on-board power for what the Netra system needs?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 14 Sep 2020 01:03

Pretty sure that all such systems have an onboard power generation system for all the electronics, radars etc. One was developed specifically for Netra.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 14 Sep 2020 01:20

I don't get the fascination with C295W, it is nowhere close to being a "done deal", better to just go for large business jet platform like Saab and IAI has done.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 14 Sep 2020 02:30

jamwal wrote:Pretty sure that all such systems have an onboard power generation system for all the electronics, radars etc. One was developed specifically for Netra.


I don't think this is correct. There is some onboard power packs for the mission computers and some specific sensors, but the massive power required by the radar is provided by the airplane...

The E-3 AWACS draws its power from the aircraft engines. So do most other such airborne radar aircraft.

Here's a blurb for the Netra:
The cabin is also modified to house five operator work stations, four racks, additional fuselage fuel tanks and five rest crew seats.

The modified aircraft has additional power unit to power onboard mission systems. It can also support the in-flight re-fuelling system for extended endurance of the mission.

Two radiating planar arrays are mounted above the fuselage of the EMB-145 to provide 240° coverage. The arrays are fixed in back-to-back arrangement in an active antenna array unit (AAAU).

The AAAU is designed to fit 10×2 antenna array panels, 160 Transmit Receive Multi Modules (TRMM) and all the supporting devices, including power supply units and control units. Each TRMM is made of eight compactly fused transmit receive modules to ensure high density installation of 160 TRMMs.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Sep 2020 09:16

A surveillance radar needs to generate peak powers of a few MW of pulsed RF power. Avionics power supplies are generally 28V and 48VDC. For the radar you would need additional generators for sufficient high voltages and currents.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby pkudva » 14 Sep 2020 09:29

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Cybaru wrote:At this point, the C295W will be the fastest route for the new AEW. CCS has already approved and the first few in the AEW config can be bought directly from airbus. This allows for decent continuity as well.


Update on the Approval of CCS is yet to be reported. Hopefully it must be done. Indeed a Critical asset to have, 8 Is a miniscule No to havefor a Airforce like IAF. We need atleast 20.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 14 Sep 2020 15:54

Some AWACS including Airavat had an auxiliary power unit
Image


Not so clear about Netra
Image
Image

https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 5842975744

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 29 Sep 2020 18:24

Deputy Chief of the Air Staff:
https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 6298572800
2/3

The AWACS-India project is progressing but financial crunch had delayed acquisition of more FRAs, some could be taken on dry-lease. More Netra AEW&C aircraft will be obtained

MALE UAVs: IAF is lead Service for 127 of these while there is also requirement for HALEs

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 29 Sep 2020 18:59

How will more Netra aircraft be obtained when Embrarer is blacklisted?

I always felt that India made a mistake by blacklisting Embraer. Instead it should have imposed a penalty, asked for a reduced price adjusted for kickbacks and ordered more planes when the weather was clear. Trying to build up during a crisis has its won cost.

We should have built up our AEW&C capacity on the tried and tested Netra before moving on to a new and more enhanced one.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Sep 2020 19:04

Brazilian Govt to Govt deal for 5 EMB 145"s.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby V_Raman » 29 Sep 2020 19:07

G2G deal is the way to go here - no offsets or any such crap - maybe go for the XR to get more loiter time.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 29 Sep 2020 19:18

5 Embraer?
2 are Netra with IAF, 1 with DRDO and rest? VIP transport?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 29 Sep 2020 21:53

Aditya_V wrote:Brazilian Govt to Govt deal for 5 EMB 145"s.


I hope we make it 10 at least, this investment will payback us handsomely at the right time.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby KSingh » 29 Sep 2020 23:04

So apparently more Netra are on the anvil but obviously the EMB blacklisting remains another poisoned chalice from the UPA so it remains to be seen how they get around that

Although the C295W is not a suitable option (even though thee have been models of that- likely for export customers), a jet can cruise faster, higher and more efficiently and is thus far more suited for an AWACS platform and the IAF’s needs


+ in case it was missed before, this could be one way out of the entire thing:

http://www.travelbizmonitor.com/Trade-N ... raer-53102



Anyway Netra or no Netra doesn’t really interest me. I want to know why CCS is still yet to give their clearance to DRDO to buy the A330 platform for AWACS(I). 2024 is the deadline for the project but that is going to be impossible to meet considering it will take 2-3 years (depending on if the 330 backlog has been cut because of COVID cancellations) just to get the platform in Indian hands (likely more though becuase the platform will likely have to have modifications on the OEM side before being flown to CABS) and only then will CABS be able to start outfitting the platform which has got to be a 2-3 year long process on their end so mi I’m in 5-6 years from contract signature and here CCS is still refusing to buy even ONE 330 for the project thereby ensuring DRDO is unable to meet their target and will inevitably be badmouthed as a result by the media who are just waiting for DRDO slip ups.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 29 Sep 2020 23:14

KSingh wrote:Anyway Netra or no Netra doesn’t really interest me. I want to know why CCS is still yet to give their clearance to DRDO to buy the A330 platform for AWACS(I).

Money (or rather a lack of it) is the most likely culprit in this. Same reason the A330 MRTT acquisition went nowhere as well. Of course, if the govt. then says they have $3bn available for buying drones, questions will have to be asked.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby KSingh » 29 Sep 2020 23:18

nachiket wrote:
KSingh wrote:Anyway Netra or no Netra doesn’t really interest me. I want to know why CCS is still yet to give their clearance to DRDO to buy the A330 platform for AWACS(I).

Money (or rather a lack of it) is the most likely culprit in this. Same reason the A330 MRTT acquisition went nowhere as well. Of course, if the govt. then says they have $3bn available for buying drones, questions will have to be asked.

They just need to clear the purchase of 1 for the FTB, sub $300m (with modifications and requisite ground infra)


A bigger affront will be if/when they sign a deal for 2 more uber expensive PHALCONS which seems in the horizon


GoI should’ve ordered the A330 for the AWACS(I) project on Feb 28 2019, unbelievable that nothing has changed 18 months since.


MRTT doesn’t even come into the equation, this isn’t an off the shelf purchase but an indigenous decade long project that has designed itself around the A330 platform

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby VikramS » 30 Sep 2020 14:17

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480366/

Interesting paper on detection of UAVs.

The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict is showing how armed drones can become the edge of the spear to take out enemy Air Defenses.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 30 Sep 2020 16:21

RKumar wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Brazilian Govt to Govt deal for 5 EMB 145"s.


I hope we make it 10 at least, this investment will payback us handsomely at the right time.


I would hope that GOI will successfully buy out Embraer and establish their factories in India !

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 12 Oct 2020 08:59


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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby SBajwa » 12 Oct 2020 09:01

https://idrw.org/iaf-planning-to-procur ... tra-aewcs/

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria in a recent webinar confirmed that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking to procure more Netra Airborne Early Warning and Control System developed by DRDO to beef up its Indigenous AWACS fleet capabilities which are grossly inadequate to fight a two-front war with Pakistan and China. DRDO had proposed to develop an Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS once a deal for the same is inked with Airbus-Tata but as informed to idrw.org, IAF is keen to procure 5 more Netra AEW&CS based on Embraer ERJ145 regional jet instead. Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer has been accused of paying a bribe to middlemen in a previous deal for three ERJ145 due to which the Indian Government wanted to Blacklist the firm but it wasn’t done so to avoid crippling or grounding of the entire fleet. Embraer is still supplying spares and support to the three ERJ145 based Netra AEW&CS procured by India and Two are flying with IAF and one is still retained by DRDO as Test Bed. Indian Government is also in talks to procure the commercial wing of the Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer which includes the ERJ 135/140/145 regional jet family, talks with Embraer could be one of the possible reasons why IAF is keen on procuring more ERJ145 based Netra AEW&CS other than going for Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS which might take time for testing and recertification on a new aircraft type. Embraer’s ERJ 145XR (Extra Long Range) introduced in 2020 with a 2,000 nm range is a significant increase over other commercial ERJ 145 versions could be one of the reasons why IAF is keen on more jets from the same family said Defence Analysts Ranesh Rajan to idrw.org. Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS might happen in the future since the combined requirement is still nearly 15 units but the focus now is to get Six Airbus A330 based AWACS by 2030 and add 2 more IL-76 Phalcon AWACS by 2025-26 said Defence Analysts Ranesh Rajan to idrw.org. DRDO is been working on upgraded Netra AEW&CS with improved range, detection, and hardened anti-jamming mechanism based on the feedback received from the IAF. The second lot of Netra AEW&CS will carry a much more advanced AESA Radar and if Embraer’s ERJ 145XR is selected then will come with reduced specific fuel consumption, improved hot and high operation capabilities, and higher fuel carrying capabilities for more inflight time.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/iaf-planning-to-procur ... tra-aewcs/ .

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Oct 2020 11:00

2020 seems to be the year of wisdom. May our dreams come true & IAF orders more Netras!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 15 Oct 2020 12:21

5 more Netras and possibly we would have recovered sunk costs.
10 additional (on top of 5) exported and we are talking an independent company earning royalty/maintainence/support, reinvesting profits in R&D .
Target is 35,000 crores of exports by 2025.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2020 14:11

Please note, this is not the first time that the Cas has said IAF wants more Netra. I wonder what Mod has been doing till now on the matter of importing more Emb for Netra.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby KSingh » 15 Oct 2020 21:23

SBajwa wrote:https://idrw.org/iaf-planning-to-procure-more-erj-145-based-netra-aewcs/

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria in a recent webinar confirmed that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is looking to procure more Netra Airborne Early Warning and Control System developed by DRDO to beef up its Indigenous AWACS fleet capabilities which are grossly inadequate to fight a two-front war with Pakistan and China. DRDO had proposed to develop an Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS once a deal for the same is inked with Airbus-Tata but as informed to idrw.org, IAF is keen to procure 5 more Netra AEW&CS based on Embraer ERJ145 regional jet instead. Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer has been accused of paying a bribe to middlemen in a previous deal for three ERJ145 due to which the Indian Government wanted to Blacklist the firm but it wasn’t done so to avoid crippling or grounding of the entire fleet. Embraer is still supplying spares and support to the three ERJ145 based Netra AEW&CS procured by India and Two are flying with IAF and one is still retained by DRDO as Test Bed. Indian Government is also in talks to procure the commercial wing of the Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer which includes the ERJ 135/140/145 regional jet family, talks with Embraer could be one of the possible reasons why IAF is keen on procuring more ERJ145 based Netra AEW&CS other than going for Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS which might take time for testing and recertification on a new aircraft type. Embraer’s ERJ 145XR (Extra Long Range) introduced in 2020 with a 2,000 nm range is a significant increase over other commercial ERJ 145 versions could be one of the reasons why IAF is keen on more jets from the same family said Defence Analysts Ranesh Rajan to idrw.org. Airbus C295 based Netra 2.0 AEW&CS might happen in the future since the combined requirement is still nearly 15 units but the focus now is to get Six Airbus A330 based AWACS by 2030 and add 2 more IL-76 Phalcon AWACS by 2025-26 said Defence Analysts Ranesh Rajan to idrw.org. DRDO is been working on upgraded Netra AEW&CS with improved range, detection, and hardened anti-jamming mechanism based on the feedback received from the IAF. The second lot of Netra AEW&CS will carry a much more advanced AESA Radar and if Embraer’s ERJ 145XR is selected then will come with reduced specific fuel consumption, improved hot and high operation capabilities, and higher fuel carrying capabilities for more inflight time.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/iaf-planning-to-procur ... tra-aewcs/ .

C295 based Netra isn’t Netra 2.0 but rather Netra 0.75, it is a step backwards make no mistake. A turboprop will always have a lower service ceiling, slower climb rate, slower cruise speed and be more inefficient at higher altitudes, these are terrible characteristics for an AEW/AWACS platform. And then there will be the additional time delays involved in certifying a new platform. CABS would also have to do more design work as the vibrations on a turboprop are far higher and who knows what that will kick up

More EMB-145 for the Netra is obviously the way to go, draw a line under UPA era corruption and do what’s best for the country but this will take some spine which is what seems to be lacking inside the babus and more critically netas.


And AWACS(I) timelines have slipped back to 2030 now? How depressing, the goal was 2024. CABS have done all their R&D and are just waiting on the CCS to pull its finger out so they can get the 330 FTB. I don’t see how this is going to be a 2030 project unless the CCS doesn’t give the money to order the 330s until after the mid 2020s. Wtf are they thinking over there? Delay the procurement and expect the services to make do without? But they have an endless pit of money to throw at useless gold plated foreign toys like the American Reapers, 30 for $3Bn!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 16 Oct 2020 11:55

JayS wrote:Please note, this is not the first time that the Cas has said IAF wants more Netra. I wonder what Mod has been doing till now on the matter of importing more Emb for Netra.

Saar I am sure a committee preceding a committee (and so on) is looking into it. They probably have set up another sub-committee to look into the idea of procuring Casio calculator to help with the severe bean counting.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Oct 2020 07:45

IAF should use the opportunity of airlines going bankrupt to pick up lightly used A330 for refuellers and AEW&C aircraft. Might even save up to two thirds the cost.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 19 Oct 2020 21:23

Thakur_B wrote:IAF should use the opportunity of airlines going bankrupt to pick up lightly used A330 for refuellers and AEW&C aircraft. Might even save up to two thirds the cost.


We've debated this several times on this thread, it's not feasible, nor financially prudent to convert a commercial liner. Just because Airbus retains the same naming convention for the military version, it isn't the same. Eg, Boeing 737's are not converted to P8 variants.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Prithwiraj » 19 Oct 2020 21:33

Extra Ordinary times creates extra ordinary business models...just because it is not usual does not mean it is not normal in today's aviation industry

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 19 Oct 2020 22:02

mmasand wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:IAF should use the opportunity of airlines going bankrupt to pick up lightly used A330 for refuellers and AEW&C aircraft. Might even save up to two thirds the cost.


We've debated this several times on this thread, it's not feasible, nor financially prudent to convert a commercial liner. Just because Airbus retains the same naming convention for the military version, it isn't the same. Eg, Boeing 737's are not converted to P8 variants.


You are wrong the Airbus MRTT is a conversion. the earlier MRTT's were conversions of much older airframes, A330 MRTT is first built as a airliner and then converted. Maybe a AWASC might need more structural modifications but MRTT's are conversions and even IAI does conversions of airliners to refuelers

Airbus Military delivers final A330 MRTT to Royal Australian Air Force
Designated the KC-30A by the RAAF, it was converted from an Airbus A330 commercial passenger jet by Qantas Defence Services in Brisbane, and will serve with No. 33 Squadron at RAAF Base Amberley.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 20 Oct 2020 02:29

UK even converted a RAF A330 tanker in to their PM official air transport!

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Oct 2020 11:21

mmasand wrote:
We've debated this several times on this thread, it's not feasible, nor financially prudent to convert a commercial liner. Just because Airbus retains the same naming convention for the military version, it isn't the same. Eg, Boeing 737's are not converted to P8 variants.


The Boeing P8 is different from the tanker conversion of A 330. EG the previous generation UK tanker fleet was all civilian conversions. So was the German A 300/310 tanker conversions. So are various the KC 707 conversions. It is a common method for poorer air forces to get tanker capacity on the cheap.

But it wont happen for India. As the MOD has not demonstrated quick footed movements in order to take advantages that emerge at differnt times.

The best option may be a direct message to the Raksha Mantri that this opportunity is available for tanker of relatively modern conversions 330 or 767 or the previous gen 777 and the 4 engine 747 as flying engine test bed on the cheap.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Oct 2020 12:10

mmasand wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:IAF should use the opportunity of airlines going bankrupt to pick up lightly used A330 for refuellers and AEW&C aircraft. Might even save up to two thirds the cost.


We've debated this several times on this thread, it's not feasible, nor financially prudent to convert a commercial liner. Just because Airbus retains the same naming convention for the military version, it isn't the same. Eg, Boeing 737's are not converted to P8 variants.


Used airliners can be purchased, put through the overhaul and refurbishment process to be used as cargo lifters. That is in itself a use case where significant changes are made to allow a passenger airliner to be transformed into a cargo lifter. As such, the P-8 is not a good example because it was designed from ground up to have very significant changes from either a 737-700, 737-800 or -900 and was sort of a hybrid.

But, the A-330 tankers or B-767 tankers can be airliners modified to become tankers. The localized strengthening required for an AWACS might also be possible. In short- it cannot be dismissed off hand as not being feasible. It's been done for e.g. the Bedek Boeing 767 based tankers.

This last tender was already set to be highly competitive and now there are reports that Boeing has blocked Israel Aerospace Industries, also known as IAI, from offering second-hand 767 airliners converted into tanker-transports, which would be a direct threat to its own troublesome 767-based KC-46 Pegasus.

The Israeli business daily Globes was the first to report the developments on Aug. 6, 2018. According to their sources, the American planemaker had refused to issue the required approvals for IAI’s Bedek Aviation Group division to make the modifications. It is possible that the Chicago-headquartered company could use this same mechanism to prevent the Israeli firm from competing against it with a Boeing-based platform in any future tanker competition anywhere in the world.

..

Bedek had reportedly made a very attractive offer to convert second-hand 767s into an appropriate configuration for a total cost of around $150 million each.

..

Still, Bedek would also be able to point to its well-established history of working with Boeing products under license and converting some of those aircraft, including 767s, into tanker-transports. The Brazilian and Colombian Air Forces both operate examples of this KC-767 conversion, which IAI also refers to as the Multi-Mission Tanker Transport (MMTT) configuration.


Boeing reportedly blocks competitor from Israeli AF tanker competition

Not the ideal solution, but for cash strapped air forces, it offers a more affordable option than brand new tankers.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2020 05:24

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 88992?s=20 ---> We must admire the beauty that DRDO has produced. The Balakot hero Netra AEW&CS.

Image

Image

Image

Image


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