Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 31 Jan 2021 22:38

No refueling probe. A radar similar to nose radar can be put on tail also.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 31 Jan 2021 22:58

So the nose seems like holding an AESA going by the shape of it. If true and if its X band, I am salivating at the range it will be able to lock on given the power the platform can provide. I hope we develop an ultra long range air to air solution to take advantage of this.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 31 Jan 2021 23:28

NETRA+ which is exactly what I and a few others here were suggesting as the best approach (balancing cost, risk, schedule and performance). Trying to squeeze in the larger chapatti (designed for the A-330) would have been an integration challenge (not to mention a significant constraint on the platform performance) and something like a tophat configuration would likewise have been more demanding on the schedule. Both could have very easily blown budgets and schedules and left the IAF to carry operational risk on account of delays. This is doable and the IAF can expect to field these aircraft in the 2020s itself.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 01 Feb 2021 00:21

What is the earliest estimate of getting these?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Feb 2021 00:25

Prototype, Flight Testing, Certification, IOC and FOC. I am sure I have missed steps in between.

A good length of time. I cannot put a figure, because I do not know. My guess is 4 - 5 years, but I could very well be wrong.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 01 Feb 2021 00:33

Kakarat wrote:....

May be it just me or is that antenna more "fatter" than Netra. Just wondering if there is a radar panel at the back of the antenna as well.

In all probability, it is going to be GaN based, so I expect it to be more "slim". You could technically put a antenna at the back and space it in a way(or electronically beam control) to ignore the reflections from the tail. Even if they get 100-150KM rear coverage, that would be quite good.
Last edited by Rakesh on 02 Feb 2021 00:25, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please DO NOT requote pictures when replying. Post Edited.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Feb 2021 01:44

The number of T/R elements and the density of elements in the area is what is important. GaN has better power efficiency, but depending on the antenna beam pattern and transmit pulse shape will dictate whether GaAS or GaN is the better design choice. Lots of engineering decisons have already been made which we know little about.

You can make a radar which has twice the transmit power of another, but the coherency of the transmitted beam pattern may be so diffuse, that actual W/m^2 or V/m may be 3-4 times lower than another radar. This is where antenna design is so critical.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Feb 2021 02:06

The picture scale may not make it apparent to the naked eye, but this Netra is more powerful than the original.This is a Netra ++. :)

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 01 Feb 2021 03:01

If that image is a true representative of the antenna, it is heavy weight stuff.

If the radar on the nose is X band, it could well be used for some CEC targeting using datalinks. Not to mention SAR capability.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Feb 2021 03:24

Guys - on 2nd thoughts, lets leave out the guess-estimates. Why make folks across the border's tasks easier. Let them sweat.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Feb 2021 03:32

brar_w wrote:NETRA+ which is exactly what I and a few others here were suggesting as the best approach (balancing cost, risk, schedule and performance). Trying to squeeze in the larger chapatti (designed for the A-330) would have been an integration challenge (not to mention a significant constraint on the platform performance) and something like a tophat configuration would likewise have been more demanding on the schedule. Both could have very easily blown budgets and schedules and left the IAF to carry operational risk on account of delays. This is doable and the IAF can expect to field these aircraft in the 2020s itself.


if i remember right the chapatti design was already certified and flight simulations done way back in 2018-19 ., as well as the power requirements, trm elements etc., and therein found that the whole thing required so much power that a third engine might be required !!!., the design being a direct replacement for the phalcon

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 01 Feb 2021 03:43

kit wrote:
brar_w wrote:NETRA+ which is exactly what I and a few others here were suggesting as the best approach (balancing cost, risk, schedule and performance). Trying to squeeze in the larger chapatti (designed for the A-330) would have been an integration challenge (not to mention a significant constraint on the platform performance) and something like a tophat configuration would likewise have been more demanding on the schedule. Both could have very easily blown budgets and schedules and left the IAF to carry operational risk on account of delays. This is doable and the IAF can expect to field these aircraft in the 2020s itself.


if i remember right the chapatti design was already certified and flight simulations done way back in 2018-19 ., as well as the power requirements, trm elements etc., and therein found that the whole thing required so much power that a third engine might be required !!!


It is just not about power (which you can supplement by adding additional power supply). It is also about the structural penalty, drag, and the ability of the platform to support the overall requirements which go beyond just being able to house a radar. Things like weight, range, endurance, margins, etc all matter when you are trying to integrate something on an airliner when neither the sensor was designed around a narrowbody, nor was the narrowbody designed around the sensor. Unless one purposefully under-designed a sensor (or it is a more efficient frequency range) usually it isn't a very easy thing to have something designed around a widebody also being capable of migration to a NB (because you are using the added weight, space, and endurance margins to optimize your sensor) so whatever work existed in the lab basically had to be set aside and a different antenna design looked at once the decision to go for the A-320 was sanctioned. One, as these images clearly shown, is an of-shoot of the Netra.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 01 Feb 2021 08:58

Is the model to scale? The antenna on top seems a bit small , more like the same one on Emb-145. Would more modules increase sensitivity and range? The Australian Wedgetail seems much bigger, but that seems to be a different design, so not a direct comparison.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Feb 2021 18:43

Image
Images for the new AEWCS
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photo ... 562110633/

notice the frontal nose radar

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Bharadwaj » 01 Feb 2021 18:49

BIG,BIG news ....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 620506.cms

In a first for the industry, the Tata Group will develop and manufacture a military aircraft in India, having acquired intellectual property rights for a German-origin platform


The GROB business jet was extremely advanced and only a lack of cash held things back.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Feb 2021 20:14

putnanja wrote:Is the model to scale? The antenna on top seems a bit small , more like the same one on Emb-145. Would more modules increase sensitivity and range? The Australian Wedgetail seems much bigger, but that seems to be a different design, so not a direct comparison.


Yes, I had hoped for a much bigger radar than the one displayed, but looks like they decided to take a lower risk approach. Power generation etc is a non trivial issue. Its a bigger radar though. I hope with more of these systems, we can reserve our Phalcons for the PRC threat, and also keep the AWACS India project ongoing.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 01 Feb 2021 20:41

Model of the DRDO’s ISTAR airborne battlefield and ground surveillance aircraft platform drops at #AeroIndia2021.

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 02 Feb 2021 04:41

Does this mean ERJ145 is kosher now ?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 02 Feb 2021 07:14

kit wrote:Model of the DRDO’s ISTAR airborne battlefield and ground surveillance aircraft platform drops at #AeroIndia2021.

...

Maybe do it on A320 as well instead of ERJ145?

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 02 Feb 2021 07:46

A320 weather radar. Doesnt look like there is too much space in the nose for a big honking radar. At most a meter and half wide.

Image

Another picture with a human for scale.

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 02 Feb 2021 09:23

srai wrote:
kit wrote:Model of the DRDO’s ISTAR airborne battlefield and ground surveillance aircraft platform drops at #AeroIndia2021.

...

Maybe do it on A320 as well instead of ERJ145?


Agree 100% on this. We have barely come out of time consuming elaborate chai biskoot sessions spanning several years just to decide the type of platform jumping from ERJ145 to A330 to C295 and finally settling on Air-India's A320. Needless to re-start the cycle all over again.

What is of interest is the under belly pod which would be doing usual stuff like SAR, ISAR, GMTI etc. DRDO should focus only on the pod and make it portable like SeaVue, SeaSpray etc maybe call it SeaSmart (Sagar Shaana ?? ) so that it is adaptable not only on A320, but also on UAV like Rustom 2. Exactly same approach as followed for the Radar on top which could be ported from ERJ145 to A320.

A320 weather radar. Doesnt look like there is too much space in the nose for a big honking radar. At most a meter and half wide.

Thanks for the pics.
The two antennas in bottom, localizer and glidescope for ILS which is used only for landing purposes. Prime real estate in nose used only for maybe 5% of flight duration. Dont know, if they can be shifted anywhere else or its removal can be compensated by other sensors.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sajaym » 02 Feb 2021 09:44

Folks, I think you're unnecessarily focussing on the volumes of old nose whereas the model pics clearly indicate that these a320s will get a 'nose job' done too. Though the model may not be close to the real thing, it is quite obvious that some kind of nose reshaping is being done.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Feb 2021 11:48

Precisely. You can add weather modes to a non weather radar.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 02 Feb 2021 13:56

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 02 Feb 2021 21:54

Even with Balance Beam antenna it will be good for (upto) 300 Degree coverage.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 03 Feb 2021 05:46

Karan M wrote:Precisely. You can add weather modes to a non weather radar.


The best way is to have different polarization.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 04 Feb 2021 23:32

Image

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 05 Feb 2021 15:47

Seems to be a poster from AI

Image


It is a good idea to place a radar below, given it is storage bay anyways and it is empty. If it is some sort of rear facing radar, we might have a 360 coverage. Or a SAR like the famous Sentinel.

With GaN modules, even the kitkat on the top coupled with radar on the nose, we will have a cost effective & powerful AWACS. DRDO might ask for fuel tanks in the storage bay below, if not additional APUs.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 05 Feb 2021 16:27

As an interim, order 3 x Netra ERJ-145 Mk.1.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 05 Feb 2021 21:03

nam wrote:It is a good idea to place a radar below, given it is storage bay anyways and it is empty. If it is some sort of rear facing radar, we might have a 360 coverage. Or a SAR like the famous Sentinel.

With GaN modules, even the kitkat on the top coupled with radar on the nose, we will have a cost effective & powerful AWACS. DRDO might ask for fuel tanks in the storage bay below, if not additional APUs.

If that thing does the same job as Telephonics APS143 on P 8i, even the IN will be interested in buying these.
Need to figure out how to put a MAD in the end and put torpedoes in the cargo hold.
A single aircraft will do the job of P8i and E2 hawkeye combined.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 08:39

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 01537?s=20 ---> The Auto-Transformer Rectifier Unit (ATRU) is for high-voltage AC/DC power conversion on an aircraft. They are used for running radars and associated electronics. The ATRU on the NETRA AEW&CS was developed by Wärtsilä & made in Wärtsilä's production plant in Khopoli, Maharashtra.

Image

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 25 Feb 2021 11:30

srai wrote:As an interim, order 3 x Netra ERJ-145 Mk.1.

Makes sense while the super Netras are developed.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 20:52


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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 23:15

India’s $3-billion ISTAR Takes Shape, MoD Clearance This Year
https://www.livefistdefence.com/indias- ... this-year/
25 Feb 2021

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 14 Mar 2021 18:35

Image

Twitter link


The 3rd NETRA Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&CS) that is owned by DRDO but operated with help of IAF crew and used as a Technology demonstrator (TD) for the Program might be on its way to officially being transferred to the IAF in the coming months.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby arvin » 14 Mar 2021 20:19

Good. Indication that A320 is on the way and testing will proceed on that.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Mar 2021 21:57

sudeepj wrote:A320 weather radar. Doesnt look like there is too much space in the nose for a big honking radar. At most a meter and half wide.

Another picture with a human for scale.

Image

1.5 meters is not small even for an aew. The mkis bars is extremely powerful and no more than a meter. 50% more is huge.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 15 Mar 2021 00:05

^^^The A319/320 will most likely have a combined SAR and weather avoidance radar. The MKI Bars variants are most likely a decade behind developments to be fielded by LDRE.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 15 Mar 2021 11:14

Cain Marko wrote:
sudeepj wrote:A320 weather radar. Doesnt look like there is too much space in the nose for a big honking radar. At most a meter and half wide.

Another picture with a human for scale.

Image

1.5 meters is not small even for an aew. The mkis bars is extremely powerful and no more than a meter. 50% more is huge.


The front radar is only going to be used in turns. Rest of the time the radar will be broadside to the area being monitored. Hopefully, the AESA means the radar can just track the already detected targets in the few minutes it takes to make the turn.

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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Mar 2021 05:34

sudeepj wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:1.5 meters is not small even for an aew. The mkis bars is extremely powerful and no more than a meter. 50% more is huge.


The front radar is only going to be used in turns. Rest of the time the radar will be broadside to the area being monitored. Hopefully, the AESA means the radar can just track the already detected targets in the few minutes it takes to make the turn.

I'm just wondering if the front radar will be x band fcr for self protection...


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