Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby PaulJI » 26 Sep 2008 17:01

Singha wrote:are the israeli ones as big as this?
inshallah, we should replace our static ground based 3D radars with networks of these type. more survivable and better low-flyer detection.

Complete replacement is not practical, as aerostats are limited by weather. Have to be reeled in when the wind is too strong. Very valuable, I think, & some of the US ones have achieved uptime of over 80% (some have been below 50%, but that's due to technical problems with one balloon supplier, I think), but the predictability of some of their downtime is a weakness. Well worth having aerostats, but you need ground-based radars as well.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Sep 2008 17:42

Guys I have small question regarding shooting down of Aerostats, while they are difficult to punture. In the case of Radar guided missiles, IR missiles ( mostly AAM's), considering RADAR modules have more metal moving parts etc, would radiate a higher radar signature and heat - the missile is more likely to hit the Radar in the Aaerostat and not the Balloon. So wouldn't the Aerostat radar be vulunerable to the HE warhead of AAM? or can AGM-84/88 HARM's/KH-31 anti radiation missiles be used against Aerostats?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 26 Sep 2008 19:17

aditya, yes they would be vulnerable, as would be any AEW system or radars.
as with these with a high detection range, incoming threats should be detected much before they are within firing distance. as you would need to protect your AEW/AWACS with dedicated escorts, you need to have a AD screen covering the blimp.
the blimp itself would employ counter tactics like the simple shutting down radar and coming down (if time permits, don't have an idea of the time this takes) to more sophisticated ways like employing ECM.


this article contains a few snippets about the aerostats.
http://mihd.net/cw3kb9e

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 26 Sep 2008 21:07

Rahul M wrote:wickberg, the israeli aerostat uses the el/m 2083 which in turn is a derivative of the pretty decent el/m-2080 green pine, used in the arrow ABM system. its range is around 500 km. mounted high up this is a very potent sensor.

Speaking of aerostats, ofcourse we can't use anything but the same imported maal. Being SDREs we still can't figure out how to tie the following on a aerostat. :mrgreen:
The phased array radar used for AAD has a track range of 500Km and can track about 200 different targets with an RCS of 0.1 m^2.

Plus, pls continue to test your Baburs/Akbars etc etc as it is beyond us to figure out how to create an anti-cruise missile defense using Aerostats - you see the following are part of a separte department for their internal use onleee ... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
The current AAD and PAD combination can give in theory >99% probability of hit. AAD can also act as anti-cruise missile defense, with inputs from AEW/AWACS, aerostat radars, SAR satellites

Sorry we are like that onlee ... :mrgreen:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby namit k » 27 Sep 2008 17:04

Rahul M wrote:sam_kamath, given that you are lacking in the most basic of military knowledge and understanding, not to mention civility you will do well to avoid responding to posts not directed at you if you want to prolong your survival on BRF. anyway it doesn't look like you are here for a constructive discussion.
you need to have two more strikes before you are booted out but I can make an exception for a troll and bring it down to one. do tell me if you are interested. :)
put your toe out of the line one more time and you are out.

wickberg, the israeli aerostat uses the el/m 2083 which in turn is a derivative of the pretty decent el/m-2080 green pine, used in the arrow ABM system. its range is around 500 km. mounted high up this is a very potent sensor.

adding to what vivek says, aerostats can be operated for hours on end, 25-30 hrs at a stretch for some systems.
arya, the static airborne radar is actually a good thing ! :)
ADGES would like a permanent coverage of a region w/o too much hassle.
if they want the radar picture of a different region they can just relocate the whole system after bringing the thing back to ground.
think of it as a ground radar that gives the performance of a small AEW.


how much we are going to invest in aerostat radars?, are we implementing them or there are any plan of acquiring them .

i guess if we invest heavily on this these could be a boon in detection,even in case our AWACSs face trouble in war..........
what if dozens of these are used all along the border :?:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 27 Sep 2008 18:26

13 was bought from ELTA at last count. google should tell you the expenses.
IITB was also researching on blimps IIRC, no idea if something came of it. may be some alumnus of the aero dept there might know and tell us, if he/she is around.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 27 Sep 2008 23:35

namit k wrote:what if dozens of these are used all along the border :?:


I have an observation/question that is open for discussion:

Last time I checked, India had a real shortage of ground based radars. You had all these radars mounted near the border and securing that region with overlapping radars but fewer and fewer as you go inside the country. Basically speaking, you have a better chance of surviving deep inside Indian airspace than when you tried to cut through the border. Relatively speaking of course. At the same time these deeper radars are the more secure ones when war breaks out simply because they are hard to reach. On the other hand, the ones at the border are going to come under massive air and missile attacks as the enemy tries to knock them out. From the above we can make a couple of simplistic but nonetheless important results:
a) While there is a need for more radar cover deeper inside the country, these radars don't need very high level of protection (relative)
b) While the radar needs at the border are satisfied, they need far more mobility or other defenses

This makes me wonder if it might not be a bad idea to use these aerostats for massive and clear coverage of the inner sectors of the country in addition to picket fencing during peacetime at the border, but once war breaks out, to hand over the border requirement to the aircraft based AEW&C which are more mobile and therefore flexible to the needs of the specific air battle going on while you have this core radar capability securely ensuring total coverage deeper inside the country. In other words, in times of war, use the aerostats to secure your own country but leave the snooping stuff to the more capable aircraft based radars.

This is probably anyway the plan anyway, but just wanted to convey the idea that its not a good idea to depend on these blimps too much. They have their usefulness but also their limitations. Let's not get carried away.

On a sidenote: given the altitude at which these blimps work, they are probably the right stuff for deploying one from say Tawang... :twisted:

JMT

-Vivek

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 28 Sep 2008 01:04

How do you protect an aerostat from attack?
1. From say an RPG attack from an abdul?
2. From a missile attack?
An aerostat is a very High Value target. It does have some limited mobility. Does this have any role?

Can it change location say every few days?
Can the blimp be programmed to land at a predestined location if its tethering cables are damaged?
Are there personnel emplaced on the Blimp itself to allow them to navigate the thing if required?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 28 Sep 2008 07:28

^^^ No RPG's can reach 15000-20000 ft high...nor do normal MANPADS.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 28 Sep 2008 07:31

Gurus question time:

1) How is the power supplied to these aerostats??? do they have generators/APUs in those cabins???

2) The radar panels on the aerostat are placed on the side of the blimp...so lets assume these radars have been kept at high alti. where there's ample sunshine so can we have silicon panels layered on the top of the blimp that can supply power to it...????

3). If an aerostat detects lets say a flight of chicom flankers coming in from tibet...can the co-ordinates be passed on the fly to a flight of rambhas who are already flying????

Regards. :twisted:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 28 Sep 2008 07:34

It is that high? :eek:
What happens if the base station and the tethring cables are damaged (I remember a post in the Mil scenario thread where the Chini / Paki Aerostats were taken out by a brahmos attack, and they were supposed to have drifted away !)

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 28 Sep 2008 07:41

Anand Barve wrote:Gurus question time:

1) How is the power supplied to these aerostats??? do they have generators/APUs in those cabins???


On board generator in case of US version.

2) The radar panels on the aerostat are placed on the side of the blimp...so lets assume these radars have been kept at high alti. where there's ample sunshine so can we have silicon panels layered on the top of the blimp that can supply power to it...????


Radar is at the bottom AFAIK

3). If an aerostat detects lets say a flight of chicom flankers coming in from tibet...can the co-ordinates be passed on the fly to a flight of rambhas who are already flying????

Regards. :twisted:


The operators/controllers sit at control station on ground, they sure can pass the co-ordinates to flankers...not sure whether they can send by datalink (as of now wrt to India that is)
Last edited by sunilUpa on 28 Sep 2008 07:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 28 Sep 2008 07:45

p_saggu wrote:It is that high? :eek:
What happens if the base station and the tethring cables are damaged (I remember a post in the Mil scenario thread where the Chini / Paki Aerostats were taken out by a brahmos attack, and they were supposed to have drifted away !)


AEROSTAT rafael

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby namit k » 28 Sep 2008 14:01

sunilUpa wrote:
p_saggu wrote:It is that high? :eek:
What happens if the base station and the tethring cables are damaged (I remember a post in the Mil scenario thread where the Chini / Paki Aerostats were taken out by a brahmos attack, and they were supposed to have drifted away !)


AEROSTAT rafael


in the same article
detection range >200 miles
height > 20000 ft
mission duration ->continuously for several weeks( not
a replacement of airborne AWE&C ,with a fraction of costs

for long term use we will depend on these,and could be used effectively to monitor all activities in our surrounding

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 28 Sep 2008 14:53

a replacement of airborne AWE&C ,with a fraction of costs

Not so sure if we should by by brochure claims....the best judges of the costs wil be the personnel manning the current Aerostats at the border..

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby kit » 29 Sep 2008 12:29

There is potential to make antennas that are completely flush with the surface of the aircraft.

Now imagine one of those dirigibles with skin implanted antennas !!! One can imagine the range and capability of one .. ! wonder why no one thought of it ! :twisted:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Holographic_Research_Could_Enhance_Aircraft_Antennas_999.html

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 29 Sep 2008 15:41

Agra air base readying for three Israeli AWACS

A flurry of activity is underway at the Agra air force base here as it readies to receive the first lot of three advanced Israeli air-borne early warning and control radar system (AWACS) that will act as the Air Force's eye in the sky.

The station has initiated construction of a new avionics lab, lengthening the present runway and a process to integrate the ground systems before they welcome the AWACS in February next year.

The AWACS mounted on IL-76 aircraft are being readied at Uzbekistan.

"The sophisticated radar system is currently being integrated by the Uzbekistan-based manufacturers of the IL-76 planes.

There are some delays to ensure that the aircraft functional displays do not disturb the radar readings once mounted on the IL-76 platform," said Air officer Commanding at Agra Air base Air Commodore Shouvik Roy, following his visit to the aircraft manufacturing facility.

After Roy's visit to Russia, a team from the radar manufacturers Israel-based Elta had visited the air station recently and expressed satisfaction over the preparations.

"Some stringent integration process is underway for which Elta is assisting the aircraft manufacturers. We had expressed that the air station would be ready in full preparedness by November to receive the three planes in the first batch," Roy said.

The Agra air base that already houses an IL-76 transport squadron and a squadron of IL-78 MKI air-to-air refueler aircrafts, will also be home to the AWACS that will give a major boost to the air defence and assault tactics of the Indian Air Force.

The existing runway length of 9,000 feet at the base is being extended to 10,500 feet and work is on for setting up three new hangars.

The avionics laboratory at the station, which already handles avionics systems of the existing IL-76 and IL-78 MKI aircraft, is also readying to accommodate the calibration and the integration processes of the new radar system.

A Transport Aircraft Operations Tactics Development Cell (TAOTDC), the top gun school of transport aircraft in India, is also getting ready for future courses considering the induction of the AWACS, Air Force officials here said.

"Even after the arrival of the state-of-art radar warning system, our earlier radar systems will still be operational. Some of them will even be integrated with the new system to achieve formidable net-centric operational capability," Roy said.

The air base which is set to be the future nerve centre for the Air Force is in the process to obtain the requisite quality management certification to become the nodal centre for service of the AWACS and IL class aircraft.

Israel-based Elta would also provide the required training material and assist the Indian Air Force engineers to adopt to the hi-tech integration process.

The Israeli AWACS radar system, in addition to providing precision strike capabilities to Air Force assets, will give the much-needed strategic teeth to the forces.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2008 16:38

A Transport Aircraft Operations Tactics Development Cell (TAOTDC), the top gun school of transport aircraft in India, is also getting ready for future courses considering the induction of the AWACS, Air Force officials here said.

Didnt even know that such a institution existed!!!! :oops:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Victor » 29 Sep 2008 17:13

On the face of it, the old Soviet countries and Israel should make good partners on defense-related hardware because a lot of Israeli techies are Russian-speaking immigrants. The Elta folks visiting the Ilyushin factory in Kazakhstan could conceivably be talking to old comrades.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 19 Oct 2008 23:28


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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby kidoman » 20 Oct 2008 13:17

A Sharma wrote:Agra air base readying for three Israeli AWACS

The AWACS mounted on IL-76 aircraft are being readied at Uzbekistan.

"The sophisticated radar system is currently being integrated by the Uzbekistan-based manufacturers of the IL-76 planes.




Isnt the integration of the aircraft and radar going on in Israel instead of Uzbekistan as mentioned above??

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby neerajb » 20 Oct 2008 14:49

"The sophisticated radar system is currently being integrated by the Uzbekistan-based manufacturers of the IL-76 planes.


Is it DDM as I guess it should be Ukraine.

Cheers...

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby asbchakri » 20 Oct 2008 14:52

neerajbhandari wrote:
"The sophisticated radar system is currently being integrated by the Uzbekistan-based manufacturers of the IL-76 planes.


Is it DDM as I guess it should be Ukraine.

Cheers...


Yeah but still aint it being integrated with the Radar System in Israel :?: :?:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JaiS » 20 Oct 2008 21:35

I guess, this answers the questions raised above.

DELAY IN ACQUISITION OF PHALCON AWACS


Monday, October 20, 2008

As per the current delivery schedule, the delivery of three AWACS to India is expected to be made in February 2009, September 2009 and April 2010.

The main reason for the delay is the late arrival of the first modified aircraft from Russia in Israel. The progress on the flight trials has also been slow since the required spares have to be shipped from Russia.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Adhalrao Patil Shivajirao and Shri Ravi Prakash Verma in Lok Sabha today.



neeraj,

Is it DDM as I guess it should be Ukraine.


They are correct, it should be Uzbekistan and not Ukraine, TAPO is based in Uzbekistan.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby narmad » 07 Nov 2008 21:43

Foreign partner likely for ‘eye in the sky’ programme
The partner will help CABS integrate systems such as the Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), other antennas, trans receiver modules and various sub systems being developed by Indian defence laboratories onto the three Brazil manufactured Embraer EMB-145 regional jets that India is using as the AEWC&S flying platform.
The CABS has sent a request for proposal for the multi-million dollar contract to six vendors — Israel’s Elta, the European consortium EADS, France’s Thales, Sweden’s SAAB Erikson and the United State’s Raytheon and Northrop Grumman. The vendors have time till the third week of January to submit their proposals.
The indigenous AEW&CS which are for the Indian Air Force (IAF) will supplement the three Phalcon advanced early warning systems that India is acquiring from Israel at a cost of $1.1 billion. But since the six aircraft will be able to effectively cover only an area equivalent to India’s northern borders, the IAF is looking to acquire an additional 20 such systems.

So it means 20 - (3 Phalcons + 3 CABS's awacs) = 14. What will be the mix of these 14 and wots the planned time period? does look a very optimistic number

The CABS, which is scheduled to deliver the first AEW&CS by 2011, is hoping to build some of these systems, sell a few to the Navy and even bag export orders.

A senior CABS official said that the IAF had changed the operating requirements in 2005, asking for changes such as extra seats, an executive chair and in-flight refuelling. All this had caused an “increase in weight and a small delay.” He said the AEWC&S’s trans-receiver modules were being designed by CABS and Astra Microwave of Hyderabad, while the ground exploitation system was being designed and manufactured by Bharat Electronics.
The official said the three specially modified EMB-145s, being acquired at a cost of $210 million from Embraer, will be delivered in 36, 42 and 45 months. Pilots from the Air Force’s Aircraft and System Testing Establishment would check them out in Brazil before they are accepted. The aircraft’s first flight was expected in 24 months.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 07 Nov 2008 23:09

14+3 drdo aew&c is huge improvement over earlier plan for 3 and this means iaf has confidence in the design and performance

a 23 (6phalcon+3+14 drdo aew&c) means india will have one of the most advance AF in world let alone Asia
for shooter india will have 230 mki 125-200 mrca 120-200 lca and 180-200 pak-fa
:shock:
Last edited by Vikram_S on 07 Nov 2008 23:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 07 Nov 2008 23:10

narmad, report says:
"the IAF is looking to acquire an additional 20 such systems. "

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby narmad » 07 Nov 2008 23:41

Vikram_S sorry about that. If its 20 additional, then we need to know by when and what mix
20 additional is a huge number

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 07 Nov 2008 23:44

No need to say sorry my friend
lets just hope indias awacs flow fast

pakis get brown uniforms for af

:mrgreen:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 10 Nov 2008 09:14

A senior CABS official said that the IAF had changed the operating requirements in 2005, asking for changes such as extra seats, an executive chair and in-flight refuelling.


What's an executive chair??

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby andy B » 10 Nov 2008 09:33

jamwal wrote:
A senior CABS official said that the IAF had changed the operating requirements in 2005, asking for changes such as extra seats, an executive chair and in-flight refuelling.


What's an executive chair??


It'll probably be for the Mission Comander/Tactical Director who will be the head/senior of the mission crew and liases with the authorities in charge I think.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 10 Nov 2008 09:53

20 :twisted: :shock: :mrgreen:

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 10 Nov 2008 11:18

jamwal wrote:
A senior CABS official said that the IAF had changed the operating requirements in 2005, asking for changes such as extra seats, an executive chair and in-flight refuelling.


What's an executive chair??


Like the commander's chair in Startrek? :D

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Ravishankar » 10 Nov 2008 12:12

I had read reports about a follow on order of 3 more phalcons, maybe this 20 includes 6 Phalcons (atleast we can hope)

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Nov 2008 21:15

Vikram_S wrote:14+3 drdo aew&c is huge improvement over earlier plan for 3 and this means iaf has confidence in the design and performance

a 23 (6phalcon+3+14 drdo aew&c) means india will have one of the most advance AF in world let alone Asia
for shooter india will have 230 mki 125-200 mrca 120-200 lca and 180-200 pak-fa
:shock:


and we will need every one of them operational to deal with the PLAAF

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 10 Nov 2008 21:40

Wasnt the Indian Navy going to issue a tender for 5 LandBased AWACs (not including the DRDO AWAC) Talk of the E-3 and Hawkeye 2000 doing the rounds a while back... Was it just talk?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JaiS » 11 Nov 2008 02:49

India negotiating $1.5 bn defence deal with Israel: Report


India is negotiating a deal with Israel to purchase four intelligence and early warning planes at a cost of USD 1.5 billion, a media report said on Monday.

Indian Defence Secretary Vijay Singh is leading a delegation to Israel this week to discuss the purchase of the planes and missiles from Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), daily Ha'aretz reported.

The Indian delegation will also discuss cooperation with Israel on intelligence matters and in the war on terror, sources close to the Israeli defense industries reportedly told the daily.

Earlier, India had bought Phalcon AWACS plane radars from IAI for $1.1 billion, a deal that has been delayed but likely to come through by early 2010.

Negotiations over the new deal is said to have started a few months ago.


The Indian delegation includes senior officials from the Defense Ministry, high ranking officers from the army and air force, as well as officials involved in military research and
development, the report said.

A source close to the IAI told the daily that the first Phalcon AWACS will be delivered to India in the next few weeks.

The delay stems from problems discovered during test flights, which have since been corrected.

The visit comes in the shadow of an investigation being carried out by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI)into alleged kickbacks in previous deals between the two countries, including those with IAI and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vavinash » 11 Nov 2008 03:58

4 more phalcons is good but I was hoping for 5. But 7 phalcons + 10-12 CABS awacs would be great. I hope they are all delivered by 2020.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby soutikghosh » 11 Nov 2008 12:20

Chinese KJ-2000

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4092/74564924hy1.jpg

It looks exactly like our IAF PHALCONs except the paint job. Wonder how much Israeli components are there in that after all Phalcon was first supposed to be ordered by the Chinki PLAAF.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vavinash » 11 Nov 2008 13:03

Its not the outer similarity but whats inside that counts. Chinese are known to copy external appearances but fail miserably in making quality products.


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