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AEW&C News & Discussion

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Sep 2017 05:32

Mort Walker wrote:Wrong again. The EL/W-2090 IAI radar has given both DRDO and the IAF significant experience. The Netra platform is important from a development point of view and given its capability, its mission is different from a full fledged AWACS. There was already agreement to get 6 IL-76 platforms for the EL/W-2090. That should continue and so should the Netra platform. What I'm trying to stress is that Netra is not a substitute for the EL/W-2090 or the indigenous AWACS platform. It has a complimentary mission.


I don't think I said we should substitute or discontinue with Il-76 based platform. Where are you getting that from? Are you making stuff up? :eek: Please don't do that! In two sentences this is what I have been trying to say:

1). Add more Netra, upto 6 or 7 more as A330 platform will take its time to make it to FOC, adding more Netra for western and southern command frees up Il-76 for eastern theater.

2). Instead of adding A330 based platforms, my *personal* preference is for mid range platforms as you can roughly buy 10 instead of 6 for the same budget, and it allows for easier operational tasking, and any loss/damage/unavailability will be well contained with larger number of mid sized platforms

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 03 Oct 2017 09:46

Stalled AWACS deals hit Air Force

Sources say the government is ready to pay only about $800 million for the two AWACS, and not the $1.3 billion being demanded by the original equipment manufacturers.
"Russia has majorly jacked up the prices for the IL-76s, which is unacceptable to the government," said a source.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 917651.cms

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Oct 2017 09:52

Goddammit. So even the Phalcons are now stuck at 3 with 3 Netras?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 03 Oct 2017 10:12

So much for the claim that il 76 is cheap. This brings up the question that what will be the costs of shifting platform while retaining the mission systems. If that can be done at under 800 million usd

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 03 Oct 2017 10:24

Pratyush wrote:So much for the claim that il 76 is cheap. This brings up the question that what will be the costs of shifting platform while retaining the mission systems. If that can be done at under 800 million usd


Even if it costs the 1.3B that the Russians demand or slightly more, it would be well worth the price to get the vodka sozzled opportunistic monkey off our back.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Oct 2017 11:43

Karthik S wrote:Stalled AWACS deals hit Air Force

Sources say the government is ready to pay only about $800 million for the two AWACS, and not the $1.3 billion being demanded by the original equipment manufacturers.
"Russia has majorly jacked up the prices for the IL-76s, which is unacceptable to the government," said a source.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 917651.cms


The aircraft wont cost $1.3 billion it would be the entire Phalcon System including Radar/EW and other bells and whistles , The electronics will cost more than the aircraft

The last time we signed Phalcon deal for 3 systems its cost around ~ $ 1 billion way back in 2004 and we are almost 13 years post that , Military inflation gallops and it would be surprising that each phalcon cost ~ $700 million today.

Last time there was already news of India signing Phalcon deal plus 10 Heron TP for $1.4 billion
http://defenceupdate.in/india-quietly-s ... th-israel/

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Oct 2017 18:13

That deal was with Israel to supply the Phalcons mission systems and do the integration. The Russians have hiked the IL-76 price and hence the deal is stalled.
The IAF should just ask DRDO to provide 2 more Netras for the price of the difference in Phalcon price. Despite that know-it-all Pandits supercilious tone of the Netra having only 250km range vs a fighter target, its worth asking as to how many fighters have a 240 degree FOV and a 250km range in the IAF, as versus max range achieved in a narrow cone. That itself should show the worth of the Netra. It won't go waste anyhow, as a fleet of 4 Netras will allow for 2 on duty, one in transit, one in Maintenance. Right now, 2 Netras are in induction with the 3rd reported as being taken by the IAF to being a DRDO testbed. 2 More cant hurt and will only help the IAF since it has onboard mission controllers and is highly automated

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 03 Oct 2017 18:40

How much longer will it take for IAI & Elta to integrate the chapati with Airbus A-330 than IL-76 now? Because DRDO AWACS will be on A-330, wouldn't it be better if IL is dropped now.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 03 Oct 2017 18:56

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915080915310714880 --> China does not have 20 Phalcon class AWACS. Please. And they have 20 AEW&C platforms because they went the indigenous route.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915082505576882176 --> Why do 'We have 4, they have 20' type of articles appear only when some import deal is stuck due to high costs?

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915083551611031552 --> As per these pieces our own contemporary AEW&C doesn't count,but lower rated Chinese systems serve to burnish their frontline unit count.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915081211453759488 --> DRDO's Netra is better than their KJ 200.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915081759473123328 --> More indigenous Netra AEW&Cs should be ordered in the interim. These are not mere gap fillers.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 03 Oct 2017 19:00

^ + 1 million

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 04 Oct 2017 00:00

The dog an pony show goes on. Indian force wants foreign toys, delays/does not order domestic system, Lifafa journalist writes in Times of Islamabad that the inordinate delay is threatening national security. Public pressure causes PMO/DM to intervene and make emergency purchases (aka 36 Rafales or 320 T-90 or ......(post your favorite purchase here)...)

At least 12-20 DRDO AEWCs should have been ordered. Imports = failed thinking!!

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Oct 2017 00:37

Karthik S wrote:How much longer will it take for IAI & Elta to integrate the chapati with Airbus A-330 than IL-76 now? Because DRDO AWACS will be on A-330, wouldn't it be better if IL is dropped now.


It will take a while (3-5 years) as the A-330 is to be used for multiple wavelengths. Stealth design is in the X-band above 10 GHz. If the same target is identified and tracked in the L, S and C bands would diminish the effectiveness of stealth. There is also the need for detailed <1m resolution background clutter maps which in my guess is already or almost there given the remote sensing satellites available.

The NETRA work will build complementary competency, but is no replacement for the large scale platform. IMHO, I would shut that program down and use the human and other resources for development of the large scale A330 program using the signal processing algorithms of the ELTA EL/W-2090 radar.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 04 Oct 2017 00:41

Vivek K wrote:The dog an pony show goes on. Indian force wants foreign toys, delays/does not order domestic system, Lifafa journalist writes in Times of Islamabad that the inordinate delay is threatening national security. Public pressure causes PMO/DM to intervene and make emergency purchases (aka 36 Rafales or 320 T-90 or ......(post your favorite purchase here)...)

At least 12-20 DRDO AEWCs should have been ordered. Imports = failed thinking!!


I agree. A single common platform is desirable. Dump the Russians and finish work on the A-330 based platform. My guess is that the IAI AWACS is over.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Zynda » 30 Nov 2017 14:37

EMB AEWC tops up from IL-78MKI for the first time. From LiveFist Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/936143099104985088

Image

Video of the same: https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/936143943963684866

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sarang » 30 Nov 2017 15:09

:eek: :eek:
No words, great Picture.
made my day...?
8) 8)

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 30 Nov 2017 15:32

How long do the refueling allow it to stay in air? 16 hours? Cool stuff..

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 30 Nov 2017 15:49

Mort Walker wrote:It will take a while (3-5 years) as the A-330 is to be used for multiple wavelengths.


Could you elaborate on this further? Will the A330 AEW have the ability to carry dual or multi band apertures? Has this been required or is there public information to this end?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2017 16:37

Syn. great pic! The need for more Desi AEWs should be expedited asap.
Last edited by Philip on 30 Nov 2017 16:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2017 16:47

The first 3 AWACS were on legacy Uzbek IL-76 Platforms.The new ILs are 476/90s with a host of improvements, better engines, avionics and are approx. $60M a pop.18% better range, 12% better fuel consumpt., 10.5% better payload. All A-330s are over $200M a pop! More than 3 times unit cost! Even if an IL-476 was $100M each it is still half the price.One can't therefore understand how the new IL-76s are considered expensive.Uzbek production has ended too.These costs are open source.

Gents,before abandoning " vodka for " champagne" or "cognac",
what is the extra price being quoted for new IL-476 platforms and the cost of A-330 alternatives? As rightly said in an above post, over a doz. years have passed and to imagine costs remain static is absurd.The cheapest platform must be acquired if we want more AWACS.5 AWACS (just 2 extra) plus a larger number of desi AEWCs perhaps on better platforms than EMBs could be a more cost- effective choice, but given the fact that we have only 3 large AWACS , we must augment that number to keep at least 3 serviceable in a crisis.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2017 19:00

Philip wrote:... given the fact that we have only 3 large AWACS , we must augment that number to keep at least 3 serviceable in a crisis.


Here in lies the problem. We must plan for 50% availability if we buy Russian stuff. Justifies pricier western maal. Neither is as good as desi solution as the Brahmos/MKI integration showed.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2017 21:03

Next-Gen A-330 AWACS to have mid-air refuelling capability

NEW DELHI: The next-generation airborne early warning and control system (AWACS), with a 360-degree scan being developed by the DRDO, would also double up as an air-to-air refueller following a request by the Indian Air Force (IAF), according to a top DRDO official.

The IAF, which is bearing around 80 per cent of the project's cost, had asked Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to equip Airbus A330 wide-bodied AWACS aircraft with refuelling capability.

"Negotiations with Airbus had been completed on the basis of the in-principal approval given by the government and an RFP (request for proposal) that was floated. We will be buying six aircraft, and may buy two more under the option clause later," S. Christopher, DRDO chief, told IANS.

The Airbus A-330, a medium to long-range wide-body twin-engined jet, which emerged as the single bidder for the tender floated by India, is likely to be the platform for the next generation AWACS systems, which will double up as mid-air refuellers.

"Adding this refuelling capacity will give a multi-functional role to the platform. It will also be economic as the cost will be around 36 per cent lower," Christopher said.

As the proposal was put to the air force, it asked DRDO if it was possible to include air-to-air refuelling. "The AWACS fly with buddy aircraft to protect it, which can also be fuelled by the same aircraft," he said.

Since the Airbus A-330 had already an in-principal approval for the AWACS system, the DRDO did not want to go through the process again which may have resulted in cost escalation of the platform.

The DRDO official said a "tech scan" of the platform was carried out, and it was found that the Airbus A-330 could be used for both purposes. The committee undertaking the tech scan had a member from the DRDO, apart from the IAF and the defence ministry.

The IAF at present has two AWACS systems -- the Israeli Phalcon AWACS on the Russian IL-76 and an indigenous system mounted on a Brazilian Embraer-145 that was handed over to IAF by DRDO at the Aero India 2017. Two more Embraer aircraft are being fitted with the system.

The IAF at present operates six IL-78 planes for air-to-air refuelling and has a requirement for more. Incidentally, in 2016, India had scrapped a deal for acquisition of six Airbus A-330 mid-air refuelling aircraft.

The indigenous AWACS have a 240 degree scanning capability, which means it scans the area on both sides, but not in the front or back.

The new system being developed by DRDO would have AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars with 360 degree capability, which can detect incoming aerial threats like hostile fighters, drones and cruise missiles from 400-km away. India will be only the second country in the world after Israel to develop such a system.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby VKumar » 30 Nov 2017 21:28


For every fighter squadron, there should be one AWACS CUM REFUELLER.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 30 Nov 2017 22:42

So the AWACS controllers will be fried in the event the fuel is hit? Or are there systems to prevent that? Putting fuel in the AWACS seems to be taking away from space for the main task without a great benefit. There should be dedicated refuellers. And why is it so tough to build your own refuellers from passenger/cargo aircraft?

Need to order 20 DRDO AEWs first. A-330 based AWACs will take 10 years to come.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Will » 30 Nov 2017 23:22

That's some hare-brained idea. When will the IAF get additional tankers. This just shows their desperation. How many more cancellations and rounds of trials for tankers will there be, :( :( :( :(

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2017 23:26

In an era of constant signature reduction, I would have thought the primary emphasis would be on using every inch of space on developing a super powerful AWACs.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 01 Dec 2017 00:07

This is a wonderful curve ball thrown at DRDO and has fallen for it. Cadence of events would be that the AWACS wont meet some parameter and the forces will say we need to import stuff. Tried tested way, washed rinsed and repeated now.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 01 Dec 2017 00:24

Whatever platform we acquire the ultra sophisticated electronics for the radar,consoles, etc.will require extensive maintenance more than the platform.That's why we need at least 5, not the issue of reliability of the platform.In any case even legacy IL-76s have proven their worth over decades why all are being upgraded.

Moreover, is an AWACS going to be principally an AWACS bird or tanker? Ridiculous idea to double task when a dedicated tanker when a new IL-78 upgraded version is yet again less than half the cost.The tanker and AWACS may have to simultaneously operate in different regions too,say in Ar.Prd. and on the western front.The argument remains the same even if a Boeing tanker is acquired.Far better to have dedicated birds for each task whatever the platform chosen.

To me this is a specious argument to buy an ultra -expensive bird saying that it can do two tasks instead of one, but even here it is less efficient than buying two diff. aircraft which will still be cheaper than an A-330.

The DRDO AEWC platform will certainly be cheaper, available in greater numbers and should suffice to deal with both China and Pak monitoring the land borders , endurance extended by refuelling with tankers.It is in the LR maritime sphere where greater endurance is required at much longer ranges that the larger AWACS are more effective.I think however that at least 5 larger AWACS - some analysts want even more,should suffice for the interim ( China has 20 AWACS!) with a bulk buy of the smaller more affordable DRDO/ EMB systems which could be used in large number covering and monitoring greater airspace.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 01 Dec 2017 00:56

Who comes up with these requirements?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby disha » 01 Dec 2017 01:09

^^ Do blame the DDM - Dumb & Dork Media.

The plane will NOT be both AWACS and a re-fueler at the same time! It is that the same platform that will be made into AWACS can also be made into Refuelers. Like taking the same plane and putting seats on it for passenger or emptying to transport cargo.

From the maintenance perspective., it is the same set of engines, tires, wings, windshields, pilot training, inventory management etc.

But of course the DDM are high on 'multi-role' somewhere.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Dec 2017 01:10

If the fuel designated for refueling also be used for the AWACS usage, then it may be fine to increase the endurance, otherwise it is unncecessary complication.
I think we 'rakshaks' have a tendency to jump and open the flak battery on our everyone too early and too soon by proposing a conspiracy theory behind every decision. While that CT may be truth, but we know for sure??? The only thing we can do is debate objectively, which is what i find not happening, as it used to happen in early days of BRF. No intent to start a flame war. Apologies in advance in case someone doesnt like this statement.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Dec 2017 06:46

disha wrote:^^ Do blame the DDM - Dumb & Dork Media.

The plane will NOT be both AWACS and a re-fueler at the same time! It is that the same platform that will be made into AWACS can also be made into Refuelers. Like taking the same plane and putting seats on it for passenger or emptying to transport cargo.

From the maintenance perspective., it is the same set of engines, tires, wings, windshields, pilot training, inventory management etc.

But of course the DDM are high on 'multi-role' somewhere.


Yes that is correct. The DDM writes some very very poor articles. The idea is that the A330 platform can be used for an AWACS or a tanker aircraft. It makes logistics and maintenance easier.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2017 07:09

the a330 MRTT is a bit unique in that it carries 90t of fuel in existing tanks...
the penalty will be around 5t of extra weight for awacs role but that is manageable vs overall mtow

the Midas has roro curved fuel tanks in its cargo hold. its internal fuel tanks are not enough.

the awacs can atleast sustain itself on 90t of fuel for 20 hrs and maybe help patrol fighters or passing stragglers low on fuel and needing some to make it home.

a330 pax area is totally clear , MRTT keeps it empty

Midas
Image

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 01 Dec 2017 16:06

Exactly, from what I can see, IAF is asking for a drogue system to be added to buddy refuel its escorts.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2017 18:49

makes sense if the same set of escort is expected for a typical 8 hr mission before a relief can arrive.

the a330 itself has a endurance of around 15 hrs at cruise altitude...range of 11500km

it can carry a extra set of flight and awacs crew very comfortably in business class seating, with dining room and sleeping bunks also.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Dec 2017 19:13

Zynda wrote:EMB AEWC tops up from IL-78MKI for the first time. From LiveFist Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/936143099104985088


Video of the Same Event....COOL 8)

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/936143943963684866

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2017 10:09

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/936211392213872641 —> Interesting, rare photographs of the Indian Netra AEW&C control room, cockpit, air to air refuelling and chaff testing.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 02 Dec 2017 16:19

Guys not in uniform? DRDO plane?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2017 19:03

media walkaround of the MRTT. the white blisters are some passive maws/rwr kit at nose and tail?

https://ashutterbugslife.files.wordpres ... 2/02/1.jpg

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/07/t ... f-voyager/

there are many options for upper deck incl having a clear space and installing some rail based systems for cargo, hospitals etc...or just customised seating...in case of MRTT. for AWACS role obviously the needs are more clear.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2017 19:05

plenty of room to mount a giant aperture antenna and hordes of onboard controllers.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fryX9ODXo-s/U ... utaway.jpg

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Dec 2017 22:17

Cybaru wrote:Guys not in uniform? DRDO plane?

Seems to be a publicity shot during DRDO press meet. Bright sunlight coming from front left open door and computer screens show only homepage.


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