Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Feb 2019 09:40

There was hardly any time for an extended session. 15 minutes total for a presentation from dare + lrde

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 19 Feb 2019 09:43

Karan M wrote:Prasad, so does the RCS read 34 in this slide
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 53120?s=19

"Al numbers are indicative onlee" repeated multiple times.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Feb 2019 20:23

It seems cabs is planning to shift from ER 145 to C-295 for Netra

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Feb 2019 21:22

That wing will be a serious obstruction. Closer it is to the antenna, bigger the blindspot.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 21 Feb 2019 07:00

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 6612734976

Check Pic at the link.
The Primary Radar on the our AEW&C can generate near weapons grade track at 475 KM. - The primary radar in the AWE&C exhibits capability to detect and generate a near weapons grade accurate track within 15 second. And track hundreds of targets at extended ranges. #aeroindiaseminar2019

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Feb 2019 07:41

JTull wrote:That wing will be a serious obstruction. Closer it is to the antenna, bigger the blindspot.

It's phased array in that the beam is formed some distance away. Multiple elements will be turned on/off via the scan strategy software which takes into account the obstructions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2019 08:25

will the c295 permit greater time on station?

claim from airbus page:
Range
2,000 nm (with 6.0 t of payload)
Flight Hours
Up to 11 hours in the air
Load capacity 71 troops, 50 paratroops and 5 pallets

the ERJ145 wiki specs look very similar - range around 3000km around 6t payload. its also 50% faster top speed.

I would understand of a short chassis C130J were chosen as a cheaper chassis for the balance beam but C295 seems very alike.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Feb 2019 10:19

Kakarat wrote:It seems cabs is planning to shift from ER 145 to C-295 for Netra

Because Embraer is blacklisted because Sanjay Bhandari of Offsets India Solutions took a bribe and gave Jija G and Priyanka Ji a flat in London. The bribe taker has political aspirations while the inanimate aircraft is blacklisted. This is India

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 Feb 2019 12:47

tsarkar wrote: Because Embraer is blacklisted because Sanjay Bhandari of Offsets India Solutions took a bribe and gave Jija G and Priyanka Ji a flat in London. The bribe taker has political aspirations while the inanimate aircraft is blacklisted. This is India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2019 12:53

why cannot a faux dharmic workaround be found like buying the small nos of EMB145 from some leasing co? keeps the CVC and CAG hawks happy in their paper filing, keeps judiciary happy in virtue signaling and gets the job done. its not like these birds will have 16 hr duty cycles daily like a civilian airliner, so slightly used should be ok I feel. and just get some docs on embraer how to fix the balance beam properly.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Feb 2019 15:43

There was a time when up to 20 Emb145 in various roles were being considered. It is a perfect sized aircraft for aew&c, mpa, gmti radar carrier. The Gulfstream aircrafts come pretty close too.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Feb 2019 15:48

Unless of Embraer can pay a fine, make a public admission off the fine , who negotiated and to whom the fine is paid.

and any future contracts with any sort of bribe to be arbitrated in an Indian court with a huge penalty.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Feb 2019 15:57

hnair wrote:
tsarkar wrote: Because Embraer is blacklisted because Sanjay Bhandari of Offsets India Solutions took a bribe and gave Jija G and Priyanka Ji a flat in London. The bribe taker has political aspirations while the inanimate aircraft is blacklisted. This is India
<FACE PALM>

I wonder if CABS can take the opportunity and put an even larger radar on the C-295 if the aircraft can support it! If it flies high enough, and can hoist all the stuff the EMB-145 has, IAF may still well pick up a few.
Not everything can be a gold-plated Phalcon.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Feb 2019 15:58

Singha wrote:why cannot a faux dharmic workaround be found like buying the small nos of EMB145 from some leasing co? keeps the CVC and CAG hawks happy in their paper filing, keeps judiciary happy in virtue signaling and gets the job done. its not like these birds will have 16 hr duty cycles daily like a civilian airliner, so slightly used should be ok I feel. and just get some docs on embraer how to fix the balance beam properly.

Come on. It will promptly be dubbed as the scandal of the century, leased infructuous equipment to put GOI property on or some such thing.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 21 Feb 2019 16:01

Livefist tweeted that the full blown desi Phalcon type 12.5T chapati was ready to be integrated on A330 last year itself, but no progress since then. I wonder if Phalcon lobby exists, can't think of any other reason. Highly frustrating things these are.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Feb 2019 16:34

We are having a severe budget issue per several reports. NDA inherited an empty coffer and huge spending requirements, including the committed expenses of previously procured gear.

Anyhow, 2x AWACS India are planned for from IAF end, and our radar programs are not exactly sitting still.

We have made significant progress in radar capability with both fully indigenous hardware (MPR, LLTR, AEW&CS) and then the all-important airborne radar S/W (AEW&CS, Uttam FCR).

So don't worry.

In the short term, expect 2x more Phalcons and 1x DRDO AEW&CS, taking our total AWACS fleet to 8.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 21 Feb 2019 18:52

tsarkar wrote:
Kakarat wrote:It seems cabs is planning to shift from ER 145 to C-295 for Netra
Because Embraer is blacklisted because Sanjay Bhandari of Offsets India Solutions took a bribe and gave Jija G and Priyanka Ji a flat in London. The bribe taker has political aspirations while the inanimate aircraft is blacklisted. This is India

tsarkar sir,
I was reminded of your post when I saw this today

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1098086958079782912

Code: Select all

@ANI
Supreme Court holds Reliance Communication chairman Anil Ambani and two directors guilty of contempt of court on a contempt plea filed by Ericsson India against him over not clearing its dues of Rs 550 crore

https://twitter.com/jgopikrishnan70/sta ... 3386258432

Code: Select all

@jgopikrishnan70
There is an "Integrity Clause" in Defence Sector and in many strategic sectors. Will a person found guilty of Contempt of Court that too by Supreme Court can be entertained after this Judgment?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Feb 2019 19:21

well apart from being 50% less top speed, the C295 ceiling is 30,000feet vs 37,000feet of EMB145

31000ft is the ceiling of saab2000 the TSPAF AEW

C295 was never designed for high flying - its ok to haul cargo and low flying maritime patrol mission.

the israeli G550 aew has a ceiling of 51000 feet

the nations first family & ecosystem continues its long career of destroying our defence deals - bofors, bhim, embraer, westland .... too many to name .... paws in every bowl

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 21 Feb 2019 20:04

any reason why Airbus or Boeing passenger jets cant be used...?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Feb 2019 04:57

Kakarat wrote:It seems cabs is planning to shift from ER 145 to C-295 for Netra

Answer is here

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 14304?s=19

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Feb 2019 08:35

Thakur_B wrote:There was a time when up to 20 Emb145 in various roles were being considered. It is a perfect sized aircraft for aew&c, mpa, gmti radar carrier. The Gulfstream aircrafts come pretty close too.

Yeah, it does fit perfectly in the MPA-medium space between P8I and Dorniers! IIRC, there were some public tenders for fabrication of RF-neutral canoe-fairings for GMTI too

C295 is less optimal

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Feb 2019 00:03

NEWSBREAK: Turbulence Ends, India Set To Acquire U.S. ISTAR Jet, 4 More With Indian Sensors

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... nsors.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Feb 2019 05:30

Where is the $$$ for this given even the Desi AWACs aircraft choice is supposedly stick for lack of funds?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Feb 2019 05:51

This too has been stuck for several years. This is of no less importance than an AWACS and can revolutionize IAF strike power.

This is more or less a D&D program as versus an outright buy of two silver bullet platforms from the US, earlier.
A 5 aircraft ISTAR fleet can be very potent.

From the funding perspective, its still far in the future as right now only development funds will be released, and we will be taking one airframe first, not all 5.

In contrast, we will be getting 2x Phalcons & the last DRDO AEW&CS too.

Livefist has learnt that the ISTAR program has been resurrected under the auspices of the US-India defence technology & trade initiative (DTTI) and will see the Pentagon supply India with one ISTAR aircraft, while pooling technological resources for a joint effort with the DRDO to create indigenous sensor systems for an additional four aircraft.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/02 ... nsors.html

Also, note that via 3 programs - XV2004, AEW&CS, and now the TAPAS oriented SAR program - all with working radars & test flights etc, we are not exactly starting from scratch when it comes to GMTI/SAR/ISAR.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Feb 2019 05:57

Singha wrote:well apart from being 50% less top speed, the C295 ceiling is 30,000feet vs 37,000feet of EMB145

31000ft is the ceiling of saab2000 the TSPAF AEW

C295 was never designed for high flying - its ok to haul cargo and low flying maritime patrol mission.

the israeli G550 aew has a ceiling of 51000 feet

the nations first family & ecosystem continues its long career of destroying our defence deals - bofors, bhim, embraer, westland .... too many to name .... paws in every bowl

Hmm, height issue, speed are both serious ones. For AWACS flying high is crucial. And slow speed means cant reach TBA fast or even leave fast.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Feb 2019 05:59

hnair wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:There was a time when up to 20 Emb145 in various roles were being considered. It is a perfect sized aircraft for aew&c, mpa, gmti radar carrier. The Gulfstream aircrafts come pretty close too.
Yeah, it does fit perfectly in the MPA-medium space between P8I and Dorniers! IIRC, there were some public tenders for fabrication of RF-neutral canoe-fairings for GMTI too C295 is less optimal

The one problem is IAF requirements were always for a heavier class of aircraft to hoist an even bigger radar. We really have no option apart from the Airbus class of biggie airline jets and cross our fingers some idiot green in Europe doesn't ask for sanctions because we are going to war.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 23 Feb 2019 06:04

We needed the ISTARS yesterday. If we are looking to acquire them in 5-6 years down the line then IMO we should be looking into big HALE type drones equipped with desi satellite D/L to get the data to ground image analysts.
With the advent of networking this is going to be the future of SIGINT/BFMS. I would say acquire 10-12 modified GlobalHawks and put our own SAR and sensors on it to convert them into desi ISTARS. It would be the futuristic and cheaper solution.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Feb 2019 06:29

The Global Hawk is a presence platform in that its advantages are altitude and the ability to spend a lot of time on station. It is no where close to offering the sensor reach and performance that a Business jet based platform will provide which usually have room for a larger sensor and onboard power generation sources. Case in point is its ZPY-2 which is a highly scaled version of the AESA sensor developed for the cancelled E-10. Similarly, the eventual ZPY-2 replacement will likely be a scaled version of THIS dual-band radar likely limited in performance though compared to what NG would have put on the now cancelled JSTARS replacement aircraft. These are mutually exclusive capabilities..if you need to capture a lot of data and cover a lot of ground and provide real time intel ( or real time GMTI for battle management if there is a full fledged sensor) then you have to go manned. On the other hand if you want a SIGINT/ELINT platform with a capable tactical radar to constantly surveil an area than nothing beats the GH as it has the ability to stay up for a long time so relatively few aircraft can set up a constant 24x7 orbit over an area of interest.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 23 Feb 2019 06:50

Brar sir, yes I understand GlobalHawk wouldn't be able to provide the reach due to it's limited power availibilty. But it will surely be cheaper over it's entire lifecycle. Even if it provides half the performance of a business jet (GE 6000), we can employ two of them with less cost than a sentinel. Also sentinels are vulnerable to fighter a/c due to it's altitude limitation.
With that said having sentinels is a definite force multiplier. IAF will have an increased capability.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Feb 2019 06:51

souravB wrote:We needed the ISTARS yesterday. If we are looking to acquire them in 5-6 years down the line then IMO we should be looking into big HALE type drones equipped with desi satellite D/L to get the data to ground image analysts.
With the advent of networking this is going to be the future of SIGINT/BFMS. I would say acquire 10-12 modified GlobalHawks and put our own SAR and sensors on it to convert them into desi ISTARS. It would be the futuristic and cheaper solution.

We do have some RF ground sensor coverage capability beyond fighter radars. Purchased for Su-30, a handful of pods.
http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34481-34452-e ... s-ELM.aspx

And then there are a couple of business jets with RAW flown by the IAF which also came festooned with sensors. The IAF just wants a proper full blown capability directly under its C&C, but there is some organic capability within India already.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Feb 2019 07:22

souravB wrote:Brar sir, yes I understand GlobalHawk wouldn't be able to provide the reach due to it's limited power availibilty. But it will surely be cheaper over it's entire lifecycle. Even if it provides half the performance of a business jet (GE 6000), we can employ two of them with less cost than a sentinel. Also sentinels are vulnerable to fighter a/c due to it's altitude limitation.
With that said having sentinels is a definite force multiplier. IAF will have an increased capability.

You cannot do that comparison this easily. Business jets are quite affordable to operate because they are designed for very very high availability and dispatch reliability while generally you will never utilize their entire airframe life in most military applications of this nature. Secondly, they will be much cheaper to upgrade and enhance with the GH being more architecturally restricted and locked. Where something like the GH saves money is when you need a lot of orbits or rather constant orbits over very large distances. As I said from nearly all aspects (capability, performance, mission and cost) these are mutually exclusive capabilities and not directly pitted against one other - case in point is the US Navy P-8 and Triton fleet and them not trading one for another.

Everything is vulnerable to fighter aircraft and the GH is no exception. It depends really on what you want to deploy upon and where you are going to utilize it. The USAF backed out of the JSTARS because it didn't think it is survivable. Likewise, the GH is also mostly designed around the peacetime or relatively benign wartime environment. It is no more or no less vulnerable than a business jet. The IAF will likely utilize this very differntly and closer to home so you get added survivability plus ability to maintain protective CAPs during wartime.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Feb 2019 13:34

Now we can call DRDO CABS Netra AEW&CS is operationally tested, It has been extensively used in today's operations

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1100300593300627456

Two @DRDO_India developed systems that will soon find favour in export market:
1. CABS Netra AEW&CS
2. ARDE's 450 Kg high-speed low drag bombs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Feb 2019 13:57

Paradigm shift for India in many ways.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 26 Feb 2019 13:59

Karan M wrote:Paradigm shift for India in many ways.

Karan, although very happy that Indian equipment has been used, any possible why the bigger Phalcon wasn't used? Just from operational PoV.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 26 Feb 2019 14:27

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:Paradigm shift for India in many ways.
Karan, although very happy that Indian equipment has been used, any possible why the bigger Phalcon wasn't used? Just from operational PoV.

one of them was probably in warm state on the runway.
the second must be flying north east sector.
3rd on reserve in South.

They are critical assets....even for Netra I feel Bathinda is too close to base such a critical asset.
Pak Tactical missiles can get to it.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Feb 2019 17:46

Netra is operational and has been used in anger!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Feb 2019 21:01

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:Paradigm shift for India in many ways.
Karan, although very happy that Indian equipment has been used, any possible why the bigger Phalcon wasn't used? Just from operational PoV.

They could use it without moving the more expensive Phalcon as it's quite fuel efficient and can have a 9 hr sortie with IFR, and moving Phalcons may have alerted TSP. With a 300km radar range, Netra was sufficient for the task and also has SATCOM (see the report I posted in strike thread) keeping IAF brass in loop.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Feb 2019 21:34

air traffic patterns normal in flightradar24, no disruption to any flights flying over TSP

but the airspace north of islamabad continues to be eerie empty of all commercial traffic. surely they have some regular flights to gilgit, skardu etc?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Feb 2019 22:03

^^with netra, tejas and SAMs the narrative against desi MIC products is up for a massive overhaul. We are seeing in front of our "netras" thanks to my time on BRF, people who refuted Tejas are now agreeing and refuting the DDMs farticles

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Feb 2019 22:23

Singha wrote:air traffic patterns normal in flightradar24, no disruption to any flights flying over TSP

but the airspace north of islamabad continues to be eerie empty of all commercial traffic. surely they have some regular flights to gilgit, skardu etc?

TSP ATC May have closed the airspace so they can launch low flying aircraft into India that would be obscured by mountain terrain. The Phalcon should be flying around as it has better resolution at different wavelengths to prevent this.