Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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chola
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chola »

Aditya_V wrote:Who will certify the Aircraft, we can't loose AIrforce personal and scientists like the AVRO incident in the 1990's, CHina probably covers up such crashes but in India unless the manufacturer will certify the Aircraft is safe to fly with the modifications and payload, nobody is going to fly in them.
That makes sense. But if the military orders you to do it for the betterment of the Motherland ... lol

Actually, Cheen couldn't cover up their AWACS disaster either, killed a lot more scientists and AF personnel than ours:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Pe ... -200_crash
krishna_krishna
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

I don't think when IAF plans for A330 without due deligence, some research definitely would have gone sort of actual prototype, it also fits in MRTT commonality. We can get this now, saying legal issues stopping you from getting planes that are currently in your jurisdiction when a war is knocking your door and many more in near term is to describe something with loss of.words.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nash »

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 5346649088

3 delivered, 6 ordered and 20 planned.
But I am not finding anything of IAF order of 6 Netra.
Hard to say it is typo as it is coming from Retd Air Marshal.

Also, 500Km range and 9 hours endurance with one refueling.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

^^^
Because they have not been ordered.

Only useful number we can take from this (is at all) is that we need ~30 AWE/AWACS platforms in total.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Neela »

I wish the 29 number is true.
The possibility of export is also there for small countries in Africa,South America, Middle East, Balkans.


We have reached deployment already. Commoditize -> Include Capabilities/Features options->mass manufacture,->export.

An entire industry can be built out of this single platform .
And tonnes of money to be made for CABS.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

I don't believe the IAF placed firm orders for 6 more Netra AEW&C with the EMB-145 jet. Or if they did, it somehow completely evaded all news.

The MoD supposedly did plan to retain the right to deal with Embraer, despite the blacklisting due to corruption charges. Whether that was ever changed into law from a draft policy is not known to me.

article link
Even so, the MoD and Service HQ retained the right to deal with the tainted firm in the name of national security. A draft of the policy has been pending with defence minister Manohar Parrikar for close to a year now.
A new platform would need to be found for Netra AEW&C if the IAF wants them while the AWACS-India program continues development. A new platform of course means quite a bit of development for integration, testing and certification. Which implies more time lost.

BTW, the article is wrong in the deal cost for the 3 EMB-145s. They were sold for $208 million and not $300 million as was claimed by the retired Air Marshal.

The best option is without a doubt, 6 more EMB-145 mounted Netra AEW&Cs to meet immediate needs. The remaining 20 could then be on a G650 or G550 or even mounted as a rotodome on a C-295.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

This is an old proposal, even our VVIP fleet was expected to expand(Just 4 EMB-135 Legacy and 3 B-737-7HI BBJ aircraft with the VayuSena)
Here is the SP's article from way back when giving out the roadmap
http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... egacy-jets

Even Pakis have more VVIP jets than us.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

MeshaVishwas wrote:This is an old proposal, even our VVIP fleet was expected to expand(Just 4 EMB-135 Legacy and 3 B-737-7HI BBJ aircraft with the VayuSena)
Here is the SP's article from way back when giving out the roadmap
http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... egacy-jets

Even Pakis have more VVIP jets than us.
priorities, what to expect of an army with a country !?
chola
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by chola »

abhik wrote:^^^
Because they have not been ordered.

Only useful number we can take from this (is at all) is that we need ~30 AWE/AWACS platforms in total.
The bulk of that should be Netras (unless we are thinking about 27 A330s which would bankrupt any military budget outside the US!)

That is why the lack of orders or even news is disconcerting. Netra had proved itself. There should be orders.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

What happen if Chinese takeover Embraer ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN2382AL
kit
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

ashishvikas wrote:What happen if Chinese takeover Embraer ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN2382AL
the chinese do have competing products of their own, not quite sure why they are interested, maybe production tech ?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

kit wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:What happen if Chinese takeover Embraer ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embr ... SKBN2382AL
the chinese do have competing products of their own, not quite sure why they are interested, maybe production tech ?
I think they have already moved past Embraer with their C919 and are now designing a wide body. Anyways Embraer depends on western players for engine and avionics so there is nothing to be gained in that department either.
kit
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

abhik wrote:
kit wrote:
the chinese do have competing products of their own, not quite sure why they are interested, maybe production tech ?
I think they have already moved past Embraer with their C919 and are now designing a wide body. Anyways Embraer depends on western players for engine and avionics so there is nothing to be gained in that department either.

India could be a partner and their biggest customer !! .. the requirements are huge..potentially different types and the c390 can replace all of Indias odd AN 32s. ..hundreds of them and be an alternative to the C130 Hercules; their EJets could jumpstart India's domestic airports .. the potential seems huge, they could literally transplant their factories here and make a huge profit
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Interesting image here re: AWACS India program from recent Defexpo.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xyvDFoef9d4/ ... C00774.jpg

Shows a fabricated antenna panel already ready (apart from the radome) and being populated by TRMMs for testing. Also, GaN based S-TRMMs most likely.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

^^^
That chapati looks rather small on the A330 - with 10.2m x 2.2m major/minor diameter should give a surface area of ~12m^2 give or take a couple for each radar face.

The IAI EL/W-2085 on a much smaller platform (1/4th the size) should have at least ~8m^2 (eyeballing estimate) - of course with only 2 sides, instead of 4 equal sized ones (front and back have a smaller sized radar for 360 degree coverage)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 652%29.jpg
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/india- ... ssion=true
NEW DELHI: India is now finally going to seal the long-pending around $1 billion deal to acquire two more “Phalcon” airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft from Israel, which has been derailed at least a couple of times in the past due to the high costs involved.
Sources on Wednesday said the acquisition of the two AWACS, with the Israeli Phalcon early-warning radar system mounted on Russian Ilyushin-76 heavy-lift aircraft, is all set to get the final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) after extensive inter-ministerial consultations.
The two new Phalcon AWACS, which will add to the three such aircraft inducted by the IAF in 2009-2011 under a $1.1 billion contract, will be delivered in three to four years. “They will be more advanced than the first three Phalcon AWACS with the latest upgrades,” said a source.A much more ambitious indigenous AWACS-India project worth Rs 5,113 crore was approved by the defence ministry in March 2015 for 360-degree coverage with indigenous AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars to be mounted on two Airbus A-330 wide-body jets. But this project will only now head to the CCS for clearance.
The impending contract for the two new AWACS comes after the defence ministry decided earlier this month to also fast-track the Rs 3,500 crore “Project Cheetah” to upgrade its Israeli Heron drones with laser-guided bombs, air-to-ground anti-tank missiles and other precision-guided munitions as well as advanced reconnaissance capabilities, as was reported by TOI.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

There is a Malayalam saying: "Thooran muttirappol param-anveshikkannam"

...roughly translated as "Starting to look for a bucket of water only when you need to go urgently"
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by schinnas »

So Pakistan has more AWACS than us (regardless of the sophistication, it gives options when one or two gets taken down or goes under maintenance). China has upto 30 and multiple long range radar stations along LAC in Tibet set up at high altitudes which run 24x7 and due to altitude have a good range (with some blind spots).

Should India go for un-conventional options?

Shouldn't India invest in a few all weather radar stations on some of the snow clad peaks on both Western and Norther / North Eastern frontiers? it would be an engineering challenge but would give tremendous 24x7 coverage. If some tactical locations are chosen, it would provide them with better visibility and natural self defence for part of the structures at least. Perhaps can be done in next few years. The challenge here is in identifying a good location that would be out of artillery range of enemy and still have the elevation to peek into.

Would having geo stationary satellite for LAC and LOC that can act as a 24x7 all-weather radar help? There will be time lag of several seconds in such a set up but still very useful.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

schinnas wrote:So Pakistan has more AWACS than us (regardless of the sophistication, it gives options when one or two gets taken down or goes under maintenance). China has upto 30 and multiple long range radar stations along LAC in Tibet set up at high altitudes which run 24x7 and due to altitude have a good range (with some blind spots).

Should India go for un-conventional options?

Shouldn't India invest in a few all weather radar stations on some of the snow clad peaks on both Western and Norther / North Eastern frontiers? it would be an engineering challenge but would give tremendous 24x7 coverage. If some tactical locations are chosen, it would provide them with better visibility and natural self defence for part of the structures at least. Perhaps can be done in next few years. The challenge here is in identifying a good location that would be out of artillery range of enemy and still have the elevation to peek into.

Would having geo stationary satellite for LAC and LOC that can act as a 24x7 all-weather radar help? There will be time lag of several seconds in such a set up but still very useful.
The IAF has much more money and a larger economy. Yet the PAF have better missiles (amrams) and more awacs. :evil: I think there is an issue with the sourcing strategy. Perhaps the problem lies in all the checks and balances, politics and what nowt Perhaps it is better to let the IAF decide what they want, and how to purchase it. They know best and they are are ones who will die first if they do not get it right. Let IAF plan their own stuff.

A lot of purchases seems to be stopped because of hollow promises from PSU defence manufacturars. They have a very very poor record. By all means, R&D should take place, but first India needs to figure out how to make weapons that can actually compete.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

FWIW, what I am hearing is that IAF wanted more Netras. However, CABS is the researcher, designer and system integrator.

CABS manpower is totally invested in the AWACS (I) project. The third Netra will be used to develop and test AWACS (I) systems.

So IAF was left with no choice but to go for the A-50 Phalcon AWACS. The earlier 3 units were built for China and not state of the art.

The US Administration put pressure on Israel and both made India buy them as an alternate arrangement.

(Yes, our foreign and defence policy is totally screwed up. We buy Russian frigates when Ukraine denies them engines and Russia makes noises of selling them to Pakistan)

Atleast the new AWACS could have been Gulfstream G550 based Eitam instead of the Il-76 based ones. The G550 being a commercial platform will have more flight hours than Il-76.

Our P-8I has flown more hours in a few years than the Tu-142M over its entire lifetime.

I am guessing our 2 Embraer Netras would have flown more hours than the 3 Phalcon AWACS.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Sir: its news to me that the IAF wanted more Netras. I've only seen news from day 1 that the order would be limited to 3 airframes, which caused a lot of justifiable heartburn here at BRF.

The IAF wanted to curtail the Netra program citing some yada yada limitations & set their sights on the "futuristic" AWACS. Classical/criminal wastage of R&D investment.

If orders for more Netras were placed, I don't see why CABS wouldn't continue to be involved in the program.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

Initially IAF was not happy about a 240 degree coverage of Netra but after induction and its performance they want more. As always IAF has missed the bus and Embraer is currently under investigation for corruption in the Netra deal, Now DRDO has offered to fit the system on the C-295 but even that deal seems to be stuck
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

Prem Kumar wrote:Sir: its news to me that the IAF wanted more Netras. I've only seen news from day 1 that the order would be limited to 3 airframes, which caused a lot of justifiable heartburn here at BRF.
https://www.pressreader.com/india/mail- ... 7041086697 read the last few lines in the article.

The IAF was very impressed by post delivery performance, including at Balakot.
Prem Kumar wrote:The IAF wanted to curtail the Netra program citing some yada yada limitations & set their sights on the "futuristic" AWACS. Classical/criminal wastage of R&D investment.
Do you have any source for this? CABS is more interested in the AWACS India project based on the Airbus A-330 given that its a high profile and high visibility R&D project.
Prem Kumar wrote:If orders for more Netras were placed, I don't see why CABS wouldn't continue to be involved in the program.
CABS is a small lab working out of a hanger in HAL airport with limited staff. The central photo below shows entire staff, including non engineering office staff to carry files that come with a Govt Institution.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs

Embraer built the airframe to CABS specifications and air tested it in various locations including Alaska. Thereafter CABS team fitted the radar at their Hanger shown in the photo.
Kakarat wrote:Embraer is currently under investigation for corruption in the Netra deal, Now DRDO has offered to fit the system on the C-295 but even that deal seems to be stuck
That was to get around the ban on Embraer. C-295 has a radome equipped version but no radar installed. The DRDO team just offered to put Netra on that. No actual work was done. And C-295 deal is also stuck god knows where.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Sarkar sahab- ulta chor kotwal ko dante comes to mind. Did IAF like the Netras only after Balakot? Would that give enough time to build and deliver the aircraft this year
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by tsarkar »

Vivek K wrote:Sarkar sahab- ulta chor kotwal ko dante comes to mind. Did IAF like the Netras only after Balakot? Would that give enough time to build and deliver the aircraft this year
Vivek K Ji, the IAF liked the Netra after its performance in exercises like Gaganshakti in Summer 2018 and Cope India 2018 in winter 2018 and finally Balakot Feb 2019.

Please note the second Netra was handed over in September 2019 much later.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 32231.html

The IAF has been taking every Netra available. Wondering if the 3rd one can be deployed by IAF.

Please note the EMB-145 was ordered 2008, delivered 2012 and it took 5 years for CABS to integrate LRDE radar and other systems and hand it over to IAF during Aero India 2017.

No one loves a car or bike without riding it first :)
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

tsarkar wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Embraer is currently under investigation for corruption in the Netra deal, Now DRDO has offered to fit the system on the C-295 but even that deal seems to be stuck
That was to get around the ban on Embraer. C-295 has a radome equipped version but no radar installed. The DRDO team just offered to put Netra on that. No actual work was done. And C-295 deal is also stuck god knows where.
Sir, The Airbus C-295 AWACS demo is with a IAI ELTA radar is a 360 degree radome version. DRDO is proposing a Balance Beam system version on C-295.

DRDO CABS has also offered to do a 360 version if requested.

Any system will take minimum 5 years if signed now.

Image
idan
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by idan »

So two new PHALCONS
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The thing is, if A330 AWACS was kicked off in 2015, instead of the "fake DAC" approvals and IAF ignoring it, we would have one flying now.

Potentially getting delivered before the Phalcons, probably cheaper as well.

The fact remains IAF was ready to wait 10 years to get 2 additional phalcons. And block A330 AWACS until it comes. The biggest was the Rafale saga, which was meant to block EVERYTHING until the golden birds come!
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

So what can be done on AWACS front, that the war is upon us in 2020? - Nothing?

On plus side we have 3 A50I and 2 Netras, plus 12 P8i (internet does not talk much about aircraft tracking, but ground and EW, does it tracks aircraft?) and SU30MKI that can act as Airborne Mini AWACS.

Still that leaves a gap - I believe Netra can be cheaper and can be had sooner, (while we still pursue A-50I Awacs).

If the time is anyways 5-6 years for IL-78 based AWACS (too late for current standoff), we should go for better platform (platform cost being 10-20% of the system) that has more time to station and better availability. For an IL-78 that is available @50% with say 8 hours endurance, another platform like A330 or Boeing that is available @75% at 12 hour endurance is like having 2 IL-78 based AWACS. Let's not go cheap on the platform.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

nam wrote:The thing is, if A330 AWACS was kicked off in 2015, instead of the "fake DAC" approvals and IAF ignoring it, we would have one flying now.

Potentially getting delivered before the Phalcons, probably cheaper as well.

The fact remains IAF was ready to wait 10 years to get 2 additional phalcons. And block A330 AWACS until it comes. The biggest was the Rafale saga, which was meant to block EVERYTHING until the golden birds come!
That is the crux of the matter no matter how spin doctors confuse the issue to do a CYA for IAF. National security (or insecurity) was used as a game to get imported toys.
With a much bigger budget - IAF faces AAMRAAMs and better AEW coverage/availability from PAF. Also it seems better fleet strength since IAF does not want to order the MK1As.
Last edited by Vivek K on 27 Aug 2020 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

This is a real scandal, but sadly the media seems to be preoccupied with Rafael (which also came very late). Hopefully the ministry will wake up and give IAF more power, so that they can make timely decisions. What has india got in return for having all those committees, tendering processes political debates and "free press" ? I am starting to wonder what other weaknesses IAF has? AWACS and BVR missiles may be the deciding factor in any war.

PAF with better AWACS, 60+ F-16's and 500 AMRAM's. I am not an expert on air warfare, but this kind of scares me.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Right now, the aircraft industry is in doldrums. Its good to get few lightly used A330s CEOs (earlier version) and start integrating our AWACS on them. Will be cheaper and faster. And given the light usage of IAF compared to commercial aircraft, it will easily serve IAF for 15-20 years if not more and will still not hit limits for D checks.

In fact, they should have looked at B737/A320s too, plenty of them flying around, and the can fly for 6-8 hours with the light payload that IAF will have on radar, processing stations and operators. Just like Boeing P8Is can fly for 8 hours or so right now. Used A320/B737s could have been sufficient to try out AWACS technologies and ordered bunch load of them now that many airlines are grounding aircrafts, releasing them from leases etc.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by deejay »

nam wrote:The thing is, if A330 AWACS was kicked off in 2015, instead of the "fake DAC" approvals and IAF ignoring it, we would have one flying now.

Potentially getting delivered before the Phalcons, probably cheaper as well.

The fact remains IAF was ready to wait 10 years to get 2 additional phalcons. And block A330 AWACS until it comes. The biggest was the Rafale saga, which was meant to block EVERYTHING until the golden birds come!
Please prove that IAF blocked A330 AWACS and that Rafale Saga was to block everything else?
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by deejay »

Vivek K wrote:
nam wrote:The thing is, if A330 AWACS was kicked off in 2015, instead of the "fake DAC" approvals and IAF ignoring it, we would have one flying now.

Potentially getting delivered before the Phalcons, probably cheaper as well.

The fact remains IAF was ready to wait 10 years to get 2 additional phalcons. And block A330 AWACS until it comes. The biggest was the Rafale saga, which was meant to block EVERYTHING until the golden birds come!
That is the crux of the matter no matter how spin doctors confuse the issue to do a CYA for IAF. National security (or insecurity) was used as a game to get imported toys.
With a much bigger budget - IAF faces AAMRAAMs and better AEW coverage/availability from PAF. Also it seems better fleet strength since IAF does not want to order the MK1As.
IAF does not want to order Mk1A? How? Honestly, this has gone too far.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

fanne wrote:So what can be done on AWACS front, that the war is upon us in 2020? - Nothing?

On plus side we have 3 A50I and 2 Netras, plus 12 P8i (internet does not talk much about aircraft tracking, but ground and EW, does it tracks aircraft?) and SU30MKI that can act as Airborne Mini AWACS.

Still that leaves a gap - I believe Netra can be cheaper and can be had sooner, (while we still pursue A-50I Awacs).

If the time is anyways 5-6 years for IL-78 based AWACS (too late for current standoff), we should go for better platform (platform cost being 10-20% of the system) that has more time to station and better availability. For an IL-78 that is available @50% with say 8 hours endurance, another platform like A330 or Boeing that is available @75% at 12 hour endurance is like having 2 IL-78 based AWACS. Let's not go cheap on the platform.
Internet has articles stating that Indian P8I have A2A mode
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

APY-10 radar adds air-to-air surveillance mode for Indian navy P-8I aircraft
https://militaryembedded.com/radar-ew/s ... i-aircraft
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Thanks Aditya...that explains why IAF is not in dying rush for AWACS (and refuelers - SU30MKI/mIG29K have buddy refueling probes). Perhaps we might have a better A-A platform in P8I than A50I (they being more than a decade old) and some 12 of them.
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Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

tsarkar wrote:
The IAF was very impressed by post delivery performance, including at Balakot.

... CABS is more interested in the AWACS India project based on the Airbus A-330 given that its a high profile and high visibility R&D project.

CABS is a small lab working out of a hanger in HAL airport with limited staff. The central photo below shows entire staff, including non engineering office staff to carry files that come with a Govt Institution.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/labs-and-establ ... ystem-cabs
Mr. Sarkar. It is great to read your inputs.

What caught my eye in your latest one, are two points. "CABS is a small lab. "CABS is more interested in the AWACS.. project ... given that its high profile and high visibility R&D project."

The above two parts make for a fascinating reading.
1) So, CABS, a small lab, can supposedly decide what it will work on, irrespective of what may be an immediate need? Unless we are saying that those who decide what CAB will do are okay with it. And those who need to use its products, can't do anything about a small lab.
2) IAF can go around twiddling its thumbs now, because while it finally likes Netra post Balakot etc, it can't get one.

Best regards.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

The sad part is the whole system is totally broken. No one knows what the truth is, where the bottle necks are and it involves multiple parties and perhaps most of them (if not all) are trying very hard for the indigenous product to not succeed. The only thing correct right now is political will, but that in itself is not sufficient, if everything else is against it.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

Aditya_V wrote:APY-10 radar adds air-to-air surveillance mode for Indian navy P-8I aircraft
https://militaryembedded.com/radar-ew/s ... i-aircraft
That radar is in the nose and tiny, probably same size as typical fighters - its not really an AEW or AWACS.
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