Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Nov 2008 19:45

IAF set to take delivery of first AWACS, may opt for another four: report news.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2008 13:03

An Aerostat. (File picture)

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081210/j ... 232024.jsp

Missile defence for Delhi
- Israel-made radar system being deployed in capital to watch for threats from the air
SUJAN DUTTA

New Delhi, Dec. 9: A missile defence system for the national capital is being deployed by the Indian Air Force.

Three Israeli-made balloon or blimp-held radar called Aerostat will be deployed around New Delhi after an intelligence alert of a threat from low-flying aircraft. An Aerostat is also being deployed in Agra for the Taj Mahal.

The Aerostat-based missile defence system is a generation behind the systems used by the US. India is in talks with the US and Russia to check out their more advanced missile defence systems (such as the Patriot III and the SV-300). Its Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is also carrying out trials for an indigenous Prithvi Air Defence system.

The Aerostat radar has been used along the international border in Punjab and in Gujarat (Kutch). The radar is currently in use in south India after the LTTE used aircraft to bomb Sri Lankan military facilities last year.

An official of the Indian Air Force said the decision was taken after defence minister A.K. Antony held a meeting last week and asked the service to mount an extraordinary vigil. Following that, security was beefed up at airports.

The deployment of the Aerostats is in line with that measure, the officer said.

The EL/M 2083 Aerostat radar was bought from Israel in 2004-2005. The blimps have a maximum altitude of 13,000 feet. They are tethered to the ground. The radar they carry has coverage of up to 300km.

The radar is used for surveillance and also has IFF (identification friend or foe) capability. For the national capital, the Aerostat will be connected to batteries of surface-to-air missiles (SAMs).

If the radar signals an unidentifiable aircraft approaching, it can be programmed to trigger the SAMs automatically.

However, the Indian Air Force usually alerts fighter aircraft squadrons in the vicinity of the capital — in Gwalior, Hindon or Ambala, for example — to be ready to scramble.

The officer said Delhi has no-fly zones over strategic areas (such as over Rajpath and Raisina Hill). Besides, the threat perception for the city was assessed to be higher than that for other urban centres in the country.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 11 Dec 2008 15:06

Vipul wrote:IAF set to take delivery of first AWACS, may opt for another four: report news.

any further news on Phalcon AWACS - by now we should have taken delivery of the first one .

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Dec 2008 17:59

Nihat wrote:
Vipul wrote:IAF set to take delivery of first AWACS, may opt for another four: report news.
any further news on Phalcon AWACS - by now we should have taken delivery of the first one .

IAF set to take delivery of first AWACS, may opt for another four

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 12 Dec 2008 07:47

(such as the Patriot III and the SV-300).
Sv 300 We already have quite a wile.There was report some time back that Russia/India were working on SV 400.They must be close to mature it now.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Dec 2008 08:24

There is no collaboration between India and russia on ABM. S-300/400/500 etc are all purely russian.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 13 Dec 2008 09:38

kuldipchager wrote:(such as the Patriot III and the SV-300).
Sv 300 We already have quite a wile.There was report some time back that Russia/India were working on SV 400.They must be close to mature it now.

The only SAM/ABM system India is co-opting with any country is the BARAK-II with the Yehudis...

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 01 Jan 2009 11:27

NALs building a 90 seater aircraft...

http://www.livemint.com/2008/04/1401114 ... build.html

I believe the CABS team should effectively look at this aircraft as a future platform for the AWACS. Similar to the Embrarer program NAL can come up with an offshoot program solely to produce military use aircraft with the 90 seater plane as the basis.....Not only will be saving valuable foreign exchange by not buying platforms from Brazil but also in times of war the production rate of our AWACS can be jacked up....

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 13 Jan 2009 16:07

Phalcon inducted 'quietly' in IAF

Quote:
The Indian Air Force's newest force-multiplier, the first of three 'Phalcon' Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW) aircraft landed quietly in New Delhi on Sunday.

Confirming this, senior IAF officials said that the aircraft was at Delhi's Palam technical area airport on a stopover from Israel. It was inspected by senior air force brass, including Air Chief Marshal Fali Major before heading out to Agra. The aircraft are to be based in Agra and form part of a new AEW squadron.
The induction of the Phalcon comes as a tremendous force multiplier in the present standoff between India and Pakistan. "It can help monitor the military build-up, troop and aircraft movements nearly 200 km inside Pakistan while flying nearly 100 km inside your own territory," says Air Marshal A.K. Goel (retd)

The only platforms offering such a capability, albeit a limited one, are the spy planes of the R&AW's Aviation Research Centre and the IAF's fleet of Israeli-built Heron and Searcher-II drones.

The aircraft can do this using its Israeli-built AEW mission suite called the Phalcon, mounted on a Russian-built IL-76 transport aircraft. The system is used for tactical surveillance of airborne and surface targets and intelligence gathering to a radius of over 400 km. The solid-state phased array Elta EL/M-2075 radar is mounted on a radome above the fuselage. The electronically steered beam provides a 360 degree coverage around the aircraft and it carries air force personnel on board to analyse the data and steer fighter aircraft.

"AEWs have a three-fold advantage of flexibility-they can be deployed anywhere, provide much better coverage because they are mounted on an elevated platform and carry control systems and datalinks, which can be used to vector your own fighter aircraft," says Air Marshal V.K. Bhatia, former western air commander.

India has signed a $ 1.1 billion deal for three Phalcons with Israel in 2004. The first aircraft were to be delivered last year but delayed by a few months. All deliveries are to be completed by next year.

The IAF is keen on acquiring three more Phalcons and with negotiations said to be in an advanced stage, the deal is likely to be signed sometime this year.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/in...id=88&Itemid=1

So the PHALCON is finally here.
* One more thing, TSP ordered 6 Eyerie AEW from Sweden + atleast 3 Hawkeye system fitted on P-3 from US + on top of that according to Prasun Sengupta's latest article in Force 4 more AEW system from China by 2012-14. My question is why does a country of the size of TSP needs 3 different platforms of AEW and nearly 12+ nos of units to monitor it's airspace?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 Jan 2009 16:40

ne more thing, TSP ordered 6 Eyerie AEW from Sweden + atleast 3 Hawkeye system fitted on P-3 from US + on top of that according to Prasun Sengupta's latest article in Force 4 more AEW system from China by 2012-14. My question is why does a country of the size of TSP needs 3 different platforms of AEW and nearly 12+ nos of units to monitor it's airspace?

Well , maybe they also want to monitor rouge Jihadi and Talibani aircraft

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Jan 2009 16:48

soutikghosh wrote: * One more thing, TSP ordered 6 Eyerie AEW from Sweden + atleast 3 Hawkeye system fitted on P-3 from US + on top of that according to Prasun Sengupta's latest article in Force 4 more AEW system from China by 2012-14. My question is why does a country of the size of TSP needs 3 different platforms of AEW and nearly 12+ nos of units to monitor it's airspace?

Because it has to face a huge Indian Air Force which is far bigger and superior to its own. All it has is a few F-16s and up coming J-17s which is no match for the MKIs, MiG 29s and other fighters in Indias armory.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 13 Jan 2009 16:49

soutikghosh wrote: So the PHALCON is finally here.
* One more thing, TSP ordered 6 Eyerie AEW from Sweden + atleast 3 Hawkeye system fitted on P-3 from US + on top of that according to Prasun Sengupta's latest article in Force 4 more AEW system from China by 2012-14. My question is why does a country of the size of TSP needs 3 different platforms of AEW and nearly 12+ nos of units to monitor it's airspace?

Something is definitely suspicious over Pak plans. Is there updated info on P-3 AEW aircraft. will US simply give away their sole Carrier based AEW System to Pakis which has no use againt Taliban and that too for free.

No country in this whole world except for the arms-begging pakistan has or plans to induct three different types of AEW/AWACS Aircraft.

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Jan 2009 16:55

From 1987, India has worked on an experimental AEW system codenamed "Airavat"; the project itself is called Airborne Surveillance Platform. HAL customized two HS-748 airframes with pylons and rotodome, but the project itself ground to a halt in 1999, following a Prototype crash, killing 8 scientists aboard. As of 2004, the project has been revived with new platform and an AESA Radar instead of a rotating one.
India ordered 3 Phalcon AWACS from Israel with a cost of about 1.5 billion with the delivery to end in 2008. This has been delayed and the first aircraft is expected in early 2009. The IAF cleared proposal to buy 3 more Phalcon AWACS in 2008.
As part of its Eye in the sky project, India is developing an AESA radar which will be integrated on the Embraer EMB-145 aircraft.The AWACS will be inducted by 2011.

India also has many programs running.

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 13 Jan 2009 16:58

soutikghosh wrote:Phalcon inducted 'quietly' in IAF

So the PHALCON is finally here.
* One more thing, TSP ordered 6 Eyerie AEW from Sweden + atleast 3 Hawkeye system fitted on P-3 from US + on top of that according to Prasun Sengupta's latest article in Force 4 more AEW system from China by 2012-14. My question is why does a country of the size of TSP needs 3 different platforms of AEW and nearly 12+ nos of units to monitor it's airspace?

Well that is what $10+ billion dollars in aid buys you. Of course they need it to fight the Taliban as they keep on telling the world. They need the AWACS just like they need the AMRAAMs for their F-16s - to fight the Tlibs. Our neighbour is unbeknownst to the fact that the so called 'objects of their creation', i.e. the Talibs do not have an air force that needs monitorin'. They are trying to close their capability gap with India. Indian Migs had their F-16s locked-on during the Kargil War, thanks to the BVR AMRAAMski missiles that India possesses. So now they want them BVR weapons too.

I am surprised about the fact that so called 'friends' of India are selling the Pakis (yes the Pakis) cutting edge tech. I thought only Unkil did that. I am surprised to see that Sweden and SAAB wants to sell India Gripen at the same time sell Erieye to Pak. Then there is India's socialist friend Lula De Silva of Brasil who is selling (and hoping for more) Emb aircraft to India and at the same time selling pirated Shrike version of ARM to Pak.

I know that this is not the correct forum to mention this - but some intel nonetheless - Pak Fiza'ya pilots are being trained as trainers on transfer duty at UKs ETPS. UK ETPS has been flying both A & B versions of Gripen. If India ever tries to buy Gripen, Pak trainers will have answers to its maneuvers and will know the best way to operate them. Fiza'ya pilots have trained on exchange at Pensacola on the F/A-18s as well and we all know about F-Solah anyway. The Brits have not allowed any foreign pilots (except Typhoon operator countries) to fly and train on the EF2K. Similarly, the French have not allowed any serious inspection of the Rafale (except the Americans). Rafale or EF2K the best option for MRCA.

Moderators, apologies for the digress...

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 13 Jan 2009 17:02

Rafale or EF2K the best option for MRCA.

Saudis are going to induct typhoon. So you can forget about that too.

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 13 Jan 2009 17:11

ajay_ijn wrote:
Rafale or EF2K the best option for MRCA.
Saudis are going to induct typhoon. So you can forget about that too.

Too Right ! Raf is it then. I'll inform the MOD...

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Jan 2009 17:15

Its all about business. Dollars are precious commodities and people will sell to anyone to earn them.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 13 Jan 2009 17:30

A thali load of mithai for the first picture of the Phalcon on Indian soil posted on BRF!

Great News! BTW a load of MKI's have already taken off from Pune to 'exercise' with the new bird...

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 13 Jan 2009 17:41

Yusuf wrote:Its all about business. Dollars are precious commodities and people will sell to anyone to earn them.

What about doing something that is right. US ignored the illicit and nefarious nuclear trade that the Paki state was undertaking. When French finally encouraged Gaddaffi to come out of the cold, he handed nuclear document that AQ's corporation sold it to Libya. That news would have been buried except to the fact that instead of the American media, the European media got hold of the documents that Gaddaffi surrendered which even had Khan Research Labs logos on it. That is when the news really broke and eventually it was blamed on AQ who could not even land a job in Pakistan before moving to Europe and started stealing the documents from URENCO. And now the yanks are selling the story to media that they did not know about the Islamic bomb until Pak exploded'em. People can believe what they want to, but you cannot silence the fact.

I know its all about the $s, but when are the 1st world going to learn from their mistakes that Islamic Republic of Pak is a terrorist state that must not be given cutting edge tech because either it will end up with the Chinese and reverse engineered or used against India.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Jan 2009 17:44

now guys, this is going steadily OT.

please find the right thread for this stuff.
thanks.

s sharma · Post by **s sharma** » 13 Jan 2009 17:58

Rahul M wrote:now guys, this is going steadily OT.
please find the right thread for this stuff.
thanks.

Thanks, will do !

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Jan 2009 17:58

s sharma wrote: I know its all about the $s, but when are the 1st world going to learn from their mistakes that Islamic Republic of Pak is a terrorist state that must not be given cutting edge tech because either it will end up with the Chinese and reverse engineered or used against India.

Welcome to the world of geopolitics mate.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Jan 2009 09:28

Another report on first Phalcon.

India's first Phalcon AWACS system arrives ahead of schedule

15 January 2009
New Delhi: Israel has dispatched the first of the three Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft to India ahead of a reworked delivery schedule. Reports suggest the aircraft arrived at New Delhi's Palam airport on 11 January 2009 from where it has now moved to the Indian Air Force's base at Agra.

The surprise development takes place even as relations between India and Pakistan continue to deteriorate post-Mumbai terror attacks. According to the re-worked delivery schedule the first Phalcon was to arrive only in February 2009.

"Surprise development" eh? Things are building up slowly but surely and paki tone has already changed.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 10:44

ajay_ijn wrote:Something is definitely suspicious over Pak plans. Is there updated info on P-3 AEW aircraft. will US simply give away their sole Carrier based AEW System to Pakis which has no use againt Taliban and that too for free.

No country in this whole world except for the arms-begging pakistan has or plans to induct three different types of AEW/AWACS Aircraft.

It probably has something to do with the US and china wanting to snoop around and get some electronic intel data about India's radar systems, communication and fighter aircraft. Any info data link frequencies, radar frequencies etc are treasured. And with india rapidly developing its military hardware especially the C4I and electronics part of the mil hardware, there is a treasure trove of info to be gathered.

Everyone knows the Pakis will not use all this stuff against goat hearders, All is is directed towards India with possible US and Paki officers doing the data collecting.

The armed forces probably know of this and plan accordingly. But this is looked upon as an irritant rather than something disastrous - rules of the game.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 18 Jan 2009 11:25

Victor wrote:Another report on first Phalcon.

India's first Phalcon AWACS system arrives ahead of schedule
15 January 2009
New Delhi: Israel has dispatched the first of the three Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft to India ahead of a reworked delivery schedule. Reports suggest the aircraft arrived at New Delhi's Palam airport on 11 January 2009 from where it has now moved to the Indian Air Force's base at Agra.

The surprise development takes place even as relations between India and Pakistan continue to deteriorate post-Mumbai terror attacks. According to the re-worked delivery schedule the first Phalcon was to arrive only in February 2009.
"Surprise development" eh? Things are building up slowly but surely and paki tone has already changed.

Phalcon purposely brought right in when hostilities with Pakistan still have a chance of happening? Finishing touches of Phalcon still pending and will be completed here in India (highly unlikely)

If that's true then its part of the "psychological" warfare. The Phalcon will have to be practiced with by the TACDE folks, acclimatisation done and lots of stuff to be done before its up in the skies co-ordinating Indian strike aircraft formations...

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 11:39

Hey the encryption on the comms suite and the datalinks are two things that I can think of off hand that will be done here in India and not outside. That explains why it has gone to, or will go to HAL B'lore.
Induction should not take all that much time, because IAF personnel were present in Israel when the Aircraft arrived there from Belarus, and these personnel have seen this bird built from there on. Other personnel have been involved with testing the aircraft with hands on training. So if its finally flown in, it is being completely manned and operated by IAF personnel. (With possibly a few yehudi advisors on board, who will only trouble shoot and who've been loaned to IAF - so technically they are IAF for the time being - the pakis will understand this - its called Plausible deniablility)

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jan 2009 12:21

Well, the first batch of comms officers would probably be the best IAF air traffic control officers, then radar system technicians. It takes years of experience & training to effectively use an AWACS platform.

The TSPAF has acquired 5 (not 6) SAAB 2000 AEW&C in April 2008. It uses an Erricson S-Band radar with a long box type antenna which does not provide 360 degree coverage. The SAAB 2000 is a turbo prop that with all of the radar and communications equipment will limit the range to less than 1500 miles and with a reduced ceiling. These will be used to protect key TSP nuclear assets from air attack. Its better than nothing.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jan 2009 12:35

What's going to be fun are all the cat & mouse games to be played with PAF and PLAAF. See how they respond and get information on sigint and air warfare tactics. With the Phalcon, all future TSP ding-dong missile tests over land can be monitored and then quickly rubbished. "Oh btw, that Ghauri-XXX you fellas fired for 2500 Km, fell short of target by 2475 Km."

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 18 Jan 2009 12:46

Mort Walker wrote:The TSPAF has acquired 5 (not 6) SAAB 2000 AEW&C in April 2008.

Are they operational? If yes how many of the 5?

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 13:43

KiranM wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:The TSPAF has acquired 5 (not 6) SAAB 2000 AEW&C in April 2008.
Are they operational? If yes how many of the 5?

Hasn't PAF taken possession of only 1 so far?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 15:06

IIRC, the one that has been given does not have the Radar yet, just the saab 2000 platform for pilots to get used to flying and for training???

The first of the functional systems are supposed to arrive in the second part of this year.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 15:12

so here is how it works I think.
Unkil gives some P3Cs to pakistan to snoop around India IN and Radar and communication signals. Now some industrious paki jernail thinks "Hmmm, now that's another way in which Pakistan can porstitute itself for some trinkets."

So they run off to China and say, we are willing to base a KJ-2000 in Pak-land so that you can sniff on the Indians and in return give us J-10 Super Bandars [(c)p_saggu] or atleast offer us deferred payment on them.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jan 2009 21:25

In late March or early April 2008, TSPAF took delivery of 1 SAAB 2000 for training. The remaining 4 should be arriving this year. Its not clear if the first one included the radar or not. It would safe to assume it did. The radar is a phased array long box on top of the fuselage and provides 240 degree coverage. Given the weight of the radar & comms gear, the SAAB 2000 will be limited to a ceiling of 25,000 ft and a range of less than 1500 miles. Therefore, it will have limited aloft capability. Singapore and Thailand are/will be operating the same radar PS-980 on the SAAB 340.

The P-3 sold by Unkil have been sold all over the world, but there are not very many FMS sales of P-3 with the Hawkeye 2000. Note the Israelis are using the E-2 Hawkeye 2000 along with Singapore, Egypt and Taiwan. There are NO FMS customers for they USN's Hawkeye E-2D phased array radar system. The Hawkeye 2000 will certainly give the PN some teeth for maritime detection.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 21:39

There are NO FMS customers for they USN's Hawkeye E-2D phased array radar system. The Hawkeye 2000 will certainly give the PN some teeth for maritime detection.

So Paki Haweye is still specualtion and not confirmed then?

Also, wont having a fleet of 5 SAABs+ x Y-8s overcome the limitation of limited loiter time since the huge numer of assets would mean that a AWACs is airborne at any given point of time due to rotation?

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 18 Jan 2009 21:44

i asked this question in mil aviation thread.

Berievs website mentions the range of A-50 Radar against a ground tanks is 250km. its not given if radar is Schmel or 2075.
http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-50E_e/A-50E_e.html
is that true? can it detect convoys, tanks?
So we can use Phalcon for E-8 JSTARS type ground mapping missions too?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jan 2009 22:07

sum wrote:
There are NO FMS customers for they USN's Hawkeye E-2D phased array radar system. The Hawkeye 2000 will certainly give the PN some teeth for maritime detection.
So Paki Haweye is still specualtion and not confirmed then?

Also, wont having a fleet of 5 SAABs+ x Y-8s overcome the limitation of limited loiter time since the huge numer of assets would mean that a AWACs is airborne at any given point of time due to rotation?

No, the PN will get 3 P-3s with the Hawkeye 2000, not the E-2D phased array radar. They will also receive at least 6 standard P-3s for ASW.

The SAAB 2000 will probably be used to protect key TSP assets such as Islamabad and Rawalpindi and nuclear assets, but I doubt they can be used for any coherent offensive. It certainly will help the PAF coordinate a strong air defense.

With the Phalcons, around 8 total by 2012. The IAF will have complete radar coverage over TSP. Anything that launches, civilian or military aircraft and missiles will be visible as plain as day. The next step is to setup a dedicated EW squadron to electronically jam TSP's military assets.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jan 2009 22:14

ajay_ijn wrote:i asked this question in mil aviation thread.

Berievs website mentions the range of A-50 Radar against a ground tanks is 250km. its not given if radar is Schmel or 2075.
http://www.beriev.com/eng/A-50E_e/A-50E_e.html
is that true? can it detect convoys, tanks?
So we can use Phalcon for E-8 JSTARS type ground mapping missions too?

The IAF Phalcons are probably highly modified EL/M-2075 radar systems or something much more improved, we'll probably never know. From the reports it seems to be able to detect ground troop movements, so that indicates the radar can distinguish very low velocities slower than 1m/s. Which means that it also functions as JSTARS type platform. If this is true, I wouldn't order just 8 of these, more like 18!

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 22:16

The SAAB 2000 will probably be used to protect key TSP assets such as Islamabad and Rawalpindi and nuclear assets, but I doubt they can be used for any coherent offensive. It certainly will help the PAF coordinate a strong air defense.

Gives another reason for our netas to cop out when the time for action against Pak comes!!!

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 18 Jan 2009 22:26

How are the pakis going to pay for this?
The chinese have already given them equipment on deferred payment for a long time now, it probably is time to start repayment. The US is the only one giving them reasonably good equipment for free - probably because they want to retain leverage within pak's mil establishment.
The friends of pakistan will likely not agree to subsidize military procurements - although the Krauts and the french will try their best to ensure this happens.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 18 Jan 2009 22:29

whatever budget they have assigned might be only used for purchasing european weapons. because there is option to beg in US & China.