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AEW&C News & Discussion

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Karthik S
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 14 Feb 2017 23:17

Cybaru, we are.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Anurag » 15 Feb 2017 00:06

Karthik S wrote:Cybaru, we are.


IL-76 Phalcon AWACS: 3 + 2 = 5
DRDO Netra AEW: 3
A330 AWACS: 6
Total: 14 (11 AWACS + 3 AEW)

Just to give you a sense of equivalent AWACS capabilities out there:

USAF: 32 E-3
NATO: 17 E-3
U.K. : 6 E-3
Saudi: 5 E-3
France: 4 E-3
China: 5 KJ-2000
PAF: 4 Saab AEW

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2017 00:38


brar_w
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2017 00:47

Anurag wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Cybaru, we are.


IL-76 Phalcon AWACS: 3 + 2 = 5
DRDO Netra AEW: 3
A330 AWACS: 6
Total: 14 (11 AWACS + 3 AEW)

Just to give you a sense of equivalent AWACS capabilities out there:

USAF: 32 E-3
NATO: 17 E-3
U.K. : 6 E-3
Saudi: 5 E-3
France: 4 E-3
China: 5 KJ-2000
PAF: 4 Saab AEW


USN with E-2Ds and C's. The E-2D program will deliver a total of 70 US AEW's by time the USN acquires the last one in 2024.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 08:56

Anurag wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Cybaru, we are.


IL-76 Phalcon AWACS: 3 + 2 = 5
DRDO Netra AEW: 3
A330 AWACS: 6
Total: 14 (11 AWACS + 3 AEW)

Just to give you a sense of equivalent AWACS capabilities out there:

USAF: 32 E-3
NATO: 17 E-3
U.K. : 6 E-3
Saudi: 5 E-3
France: 4 E-3
China: 5 KJ-2000
PAF: 4 Saab AEW


Russki A-50?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2017 10:09

And Australia.
And UAE.
And Mexico.
And Singapore.
And Israel.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2017 20:15

Indranil wrote:
shiv wrote:Why is no one complaining that the Embraer is one more new aicraft type in an air force with too many types of aircraft? And that too only 3? Remember - the air force cannot handle so many aircraft types no? Why not eliminate it on those grounds? Pesky little minds want to know.


Commonality, wherever possible should be pursued.

If only the service-records of IL-76s were any better, then there was no reason to go for the A-330s.

You replied to a post made in jest but what is the problem with the service record of the Il 76 based AWACS? As transports they have rendered yeoman service - but are old and outdated. And with not enough C-17s we will need them for much longer and may even end up getting more (speculation on my part here)

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mihir » 15 Feb 2017 21:05

At least part of the problem is serviceability.

http://www.timesnow.tv/india/article/fr ... kies/24896

The CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Friday, said the AWACS were "high value national assets" that could be "a deciding factor" during conflicts. But there was "sub-optimal utilization" of their operational capabilities in terms of "flying tasks" due to poor planning and serviceability. "On an average, there was a 43 per cent shortfall against the established task of 1,500 flying hours per annum," said CAG.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 06:36

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-forc ... re-1659556
Air Force Gets 'Netra', The Game Changer In Warfare
All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: February 15, 2017 01:31 IST

Air Force Gets 'Netra', The Game Changer In Warfare


Netra is designed to control battle space by detecting enemy aircraft more than 300 kilometres away.
Highlights

Netra is India's first indigenous airborne warning aircraft
It can detect enemy aircraft more than 300 kilometres away
2 Netra systems handed over to Air Force at Aero India show in Bengaluru

The first indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) has been handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on the opening day of Aero India, the world's second largest airshow. In a small ceremony on the tarmac at Yelahanka Air Force base outside Bengaluru, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar handed over the symbolic keys of the aircraft to the new IAF squadron which will fly the aircraft from its base in Bhatinda in Punjab.

Christened the 'Netra', the Airborne Surveillance System is seen to be a game-changer in air warfare. The Netra is designed to control the battle space by detecting enemy aircraft more than 300 kilometres away. Using this data, operators onboard the jet can vector Indian Air Force fighters to intercept these hostile targets. It is equipped with an indigenously built Active Electronically Scanned Radar, Secondary Surveillance Radar, Electronic and Communication Counter Measures, LOS (Line of Sight) and beyond LOS data link, a voice communication system and self-protection suite

In order to be able to process all the data that it receives from its sensors, the Netra is equipped with home-grown tactical software that fuses information from the sensors to provide operators a coherent picture of airborne threats in the region on their displays.

In an interview to NDTV, Suma Varughese, the Project Director says "All systems except the Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system is indigenous. The top antenna weighs 1,600 kg. It is an amalgamation of many technologies like the structural aspects, the software, the thermal aspects. It was the first time we had accepted this challenge."

The government, keeping the importance of the project in mind, has decided that it can ill-afford to blacklist Embraer, the manufacturer of the jet upon which the indigenous radar systems are mounted. So while Embraer, which has admitted to the involvement of middlemen in the deal, will be financially penalised, the project will continue.

For the moment, the IAF is acquiring 2 Netra systems but Mr Parrikar is clear - in the future, Indian engineers will improve upon this system to make it better.

"This was the first technical initiation so that we could achieve the basic objective. Now they will go for 360 degrees [surveillance] with this experience," he said.

...........

Some of ESM HW including MAWS is imported.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby sum » 16 Feb 2017 07:32

For the moment, the IAF is acquiring 2 Netra systems but Mr Parrikar is clear - in the future, Indian engineers will improve upon this system to make it better.

Order of 3 now cut to 2?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2017 07:33

One is a development unit for further work.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Feb 2017 08:32

The a330 has 3 times the endurance of the il76ps90.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 08:57

Mihir wrote:At least part of the problem is serviceability.

http://www.timesnow.tv/india/article/fr ... kies/24896

The CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Friday, said the AWACS were "high value national assets" that could be "a deciding factor" during conflicts. But there was "sub-optimal utilization" of their operational capabilities in terms of "flying tasks" due to poor planning and serviceability. "On an average, there was a 43 per cent shortfall against the established task of 1,500 flying hours per annum," said CAG.

Serviceability of avionics or aircraft? I am guessing that this information would be classified.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 18 Feb 2017 22:59

^^^Less likely the avionics or aircraft.

More than likely the radar and communication systems, which doesn't include only the hardware, but software deficiencies that come up when put in operation. Even if these systems weren't on an aircraft and ground based, you would still have hardware and software issues with the radar and communications systems. It takes years of operational experience to become proficient in airborne systems and these were delivered starting in 2009.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 21 Feb 2017 05:32

News report from India Today, which talks about upcoming improvements in Netra. The DDM reporter calls it shortcomings
Air Force inducts its first self-made but incomplete mini-eye-in-the-sky plane
Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister said, "This aircraft is almost complete. All aspects demonstrated before the IAF. The next version will be upgraded and will have a longer range and better coverage. Yet, there are many areas we need to work in when it comes to Electronic Warfare like handling multiple frequencies. We also need to miniaturise our system and make it agile."
...

"You asked about features and because time wasn't available we could not check out the extended radar range and performance. But we will do so in the second phase and now when we put this aircraft through operations in the next three months, we will get feedback. The next aircraft, in the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) configuration will be a splendid one," said J Manjula, Director General, Electronics and Communication Systems of the DRDO.

Neta/Babu ka haath in every deal...
The Defence Ministry has ordered a Central Bureau of Investigation probe into the deal to procure the three Embraer jets. When the DRDO sought a clarification based on reports of Embraer paying bribes for bagging the contract, "Embraer, in their reply, admitted that they have entered into an Agreement with an Agency towards the Contract and that a sum of $5.76 Million was paid to the Agency" as per a note released in the Parliament.


Read it all...

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Feb 2017 07:39

all awacs systems initially have considerable downtime due to the mass of sensors and sw. sw work continues for years. mtbf of some parts could be low as well.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 21 Feb 2017 08:04

XR mode is 300km vs small target. Thats the last set of tests left, which is focusing on small area and testing.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 21 Feb 2017 08:36

Karan M wrote:XR mode is 300km vs small target. Thats the last set of tests left, which is focusing on small area and testing.


Is that small target or slow target? A slow target would be helos, prop jobs and commuter aircraft.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vina » 22 Feb 2017 10:26

Why are we looking at really large platforms like A330 for the Awacs. The Australian WedgeTail seems to have been very successful with it's AESA radar on a B737 / A320 class platform. Far less acquisition cost and seems to be able to bring sufficient range and endurance stuff to the table. A narrow body vs a large wide body like A330 makes a huge difference in lifetime costs.

Surely the IL-76 platform doesnt cut it, especially if we have to import. A330 is overkill .

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 22 Feb 2017 11:02

^^^
Amen. I don't think singha wants me to start all over again on this! :) Go back several pages, we have been through it.. I cannot for the life of me understand why the need for such a large platform, especially since majority of time you will fly within borders. Divvy up the money into more assets. Get smaller A321 sized platform at the most. It is super plenty. Focus on Jstars like platform to serve the army. Perhaps they could even standardize on the p8 platform. Its got plenty of juice and range.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Feb 2017 12:01

vina wrote:Why are we looking at really large platforms like A330 for the Awacs. The Australian WedgeTail seems to have been very successful with it's AESA radar on a B737 / A320 class platform. Far less acquisition cost and seems to be able to bring sufficient range and endurance stuff to the table. A narrow body vs a large wide body like A330 makes a huge difference in lifetime costs.

Surely the IL-76 platform doesnt cut it, especially if we have to import. A330 is overkill .


But it's not the Wedge Tail. Think more along the lines of the E767 that the Japanese Defense Forces are using. The DRDO design is far more capable. There is a design of the radome to fit sufficient AESA elements for antenna gain to get detection in the L, S, C, and X-band.

We don't need to have this particular discussion anymore.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2017 13:37

Meanwhile,...
India to buy Russian AWACS aircraft

15 February 2017 MIKHAIL NEKRASOV
The countries signed a contract on the sidelines of Aero India 2017.
https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2 ... aft_702488

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2017 13:48

wedgetail is for the also ran types who want to play at being edgy and cool.

IAF has calculated it will always be short of refuelers (everyone has that issue except usaf) and wants strategic platforms to be unrefuelled and autonomous as long as possible......a330, 777 certainly fit the bill as long range from the ground up. since we are not as advanced as massa in computing, sensors our kit might need more space and power to match what massa does in a smaller pkg. and we might want to shoe horn in side looking radars for ground recon and leave ample spaces for future growth.

might as well make sure the 2nd crew is comfortable and well fed up there, with business class seating, full galley and sleeping bunks. E3 sentry has pretty basic food service it seems.

the euros are going to decide on sentry replacement soon. either they will go with the KC767 chassis now restarting for usaf or go with a330 to help their local munna. we should follow likewise.

Image

Image

http://www.core77.com/posts/27476/the-p ... like-27476

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2017 16:13

When Northrop Grumman ran the system trades on their MESA radar that was originally a USAF supported project they found the 737 to be within the trade space for an AWACS role but with minimal room to grow for USAF requirements that also involved a powerful ESM and Communications suite. There was no room, weight or power to support active defensive measures that the USAF had made a part of their E-10 program. What Australia, Turkey, South Korea and Qatar are getting with the E-7 is a scaled down version of what the USAF was to get on the 767. So they get their ESM, and communications suite but with a scale down top hat radar than what Northrop had originally presented to the USAF.

At the time Northrop Grumman had studied chances of switching to GaN and optimizing the sensors and thereby not upsizing but the USAF wanted a TRL 7 solution and GaN was at like TRL 4 or 5 back when the E-10 program was conceived. The current MESA on the Wedgetail is around 80% of the size of what Northrop (and Raytheon) proposed on the E-10 so I don't think that will be a size the USAF adopts in the future. Range and endurance isn't really an issue with a 737 specially in the iAF's context since out and out range is probably less important than TOS. The Top hat configuration on the 737 AEA, though complicated helps immensely in that regard since it is a much less draggier than the E-3's design.

The E-7 is actually an optimal sized AWACS for those nations that wan't to pick up E-3 duties while also significantly lowering operating costs compared to much larger platforms. Something like a SAAB Global Eye couldn't really replace an E-3 mission if one wasn't available or down for maintenance while the Wedgetail can and has done so in the Middle East. So it gets you a lower cost pocket AWACS that has the sensor performance, ESM and communications suite to battle manage a large and diverse set of aircraft that NATO partners bring to the table.

Singha wrote:the euros are going to decide on sentry replacement soon. either they will go with the KC767 chassis now restarting for usaf or go with a330 to help their local munna. we should follow likewise.


That is long off..NATO will probably wait to see what the USAF does with its E-3 fleet since that will be the larger order that subsidizes a smaller NATO purchase. At the moment, the USAF is not willing to move beyond and E-3 until they figure out what the AWACS role is going to look like in a post 2030 environment and how best to organically protect them from stealthy long range shooters. Both Kinetic and Directed Energy self protection suites are being explored but both are at a relatively low TRL so they won't move on an E-3 replacement program till well into the next decade. I expect them to still size it in the 767 or 787 platform but they haven't yet figured out what Command and Control in that environment in the 2030+ timeframe looks like. They just started studying that recently.

It makes some sense for a cost conscious NATO to actually procure the E-7 since there are going to be P-8 users in NATO as well that can benefit from a common platform in terms of maintain and training but they just upgraded their E-3's so they do not need to decide soon.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Feb 2017 16:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Rishi Verma » 22 Feb 2017 16:44

Embraer corruption story may be true but there seems to be more to it. To induct Netra in services is a big achievement. Exposing the corruption story now may be to stymie further progress of Indian RnD in the field.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2017 16:49

range IS endurance(time on station) , onlee thing is instead of a straight line to australia you orbit a ellipse over north and east india.

with a current 6 refuelers and no more than 6 to be ordered (shelved for lack of funds presently), how is the IAF expected to service - 6 Phalcons, 3 EMB145, 100s of flankers/mig29upg/jags/m2k/tejas !!? its a ridiculous ratio...the most skewed of all major AFs because atleast uk & france can call upon usaf tankers.

and bear in mind our P8 do not have AAR because none of our refuelers have the probe system!! it would be even worse if so.

people REJECT and LAUGH at the simple idea proposed which is get IAI to convert a bunch of mothballed or older A330 or A310 or B777 to refueler role - we have top airlines like singapore, cathay, emirates, etihad not wanting to keep a/c more than 5 yrs - where do these end up - they serve as cargo haulers for another 30 years or get mothballed until someone wants to lease them - lessors for these heavies will be few vs smaller types like 737 or A321. we SHOULD be easily able to snap up 20 of these on the cheap and give some REAL SUPPORT to our DPSA missions. we have MD-11 and 747-200 still flying around daily.

TERRIBLE. SAD. MAKE INDIA GREAT AGAIN.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Feb 2017 16:50

Singha wrote:range IS endurance(time on station) , onlee thing is instead of a straight line to australia you orbit a ellipse over north and east india.

with a current 6 refuelers and no more than 6 to be ordered (shelved for lack of funds presently), how is the IAF expected to service - 6 Phalcons, 3 EMB145, 100s of flankers/mig29upg/jags/m2k/tejas !!? its a ridiculous ratio...the most skewed of all major AFs because atleast uk & france can call upon usaf tankers.

and bear in mind our P8 do not have AAR because none of our refuelers have the probe system!! it would be even worse if so.


It is but they are also different. For a NATO mission you may be asked to do a long range ingress, high TOS and back to base and therefore rely on refueling to get you all of that. In a different context, you may only need to do a short trip to station and then provide AWACS duties for extended periods of time. This was what I was referring to.

But overall surely the 330 , and 767 size will offer endurance but at a higher cost so its all a trade. As previously mentioned the 737/320 is about the smallest NATO nations can go before they can't replace (only complement) the E-3 missions.

and bear in mind our P8 do not have AAR because none of our refuelers have the probe system!! it would be even worse if so.


I think the P-8's are provided with plumbing for refueling and both the A330 Tanker and KC-46 could be asked to include the probe if that is what they want.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2017 17:00

Image

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 23 Feb 2017 09:01

Current Embraer platform will only see 3 units that will see use with IAF. In the AeroIndia2017 AEW video, DefMin M.Parrikar said IAF is now exploring larger platforms.

If that is the case, then why isn't the current configuration not suitable for exports? Surely there is some money to be made there and can bring in RoI.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 23 Feb 2017 09:13

Singha wrote:we SHOULD be easily able to snap up 20 of these on the cheap and give some REAL SUPPORT to our DPSA missions. we have MD-11 and 747-200 still flying around daily.

TERRIBLE. SAD. MAKE INDIA GREAT AGAIN.

Powerful words - but what DPSA on what strike missions. Madagascar or Oz?

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby vina » 23 Feb 2017 10:09

AAR stuff is easy . Get the older than 7 year old planes off the Air Parasite's hands (that will be A320s) and instead of flogging them in the 2nd hand market, get the IAF to buy them and convert them. Same with Indigo and other private guys. Those guys too want to keep a less than 5 year fleet (Indigo has massive order. We need around 30 refuellers , especially to support the tactical packages and also to support the AWACs and stuff with Aar.

Oh, just buy the planes off Air Parasite and close that down for good. They have what like less than 10% market share today in India's aviation market ? No one will miss them.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 23 Feb 2017 14:38

Neela wrote:Current Embraer platform will only see 3 units that will see use with IAF. In the AeroIndia2017 AEW video, DefMin M.Parrikar said IAF is now exploring larger platforms.

If that is the case, then why isn't the current configuration not suitable for exports? Surely there is some money to be made there and can bring in RoI.

2. 1 is earmarked for further research, study, improvements and may be released to the IAF since they've evinced interest. Dr Christopher said so.

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 23 Feb 2017 19:11

Prasad wrote:
Neela wrote:Current Embraer platform will only see 3 units that will see use with IAF. In the AeroIndia2017 AEW video, DefMin M.Parrikar said IAF is now exploring larger platforms.

If that is the case, then why isn't the current configuration not suitable for exports? Surely there is some money to be made there and can bring in RoI.

2. 1 is earmarked for further research, study, improvements and may be released to the IAF since they've evinced interest. Dr Christopher said so.


At least CABS now has a ready test bed unlike the Kaveri.

My point though remains:
DM Parrikar said they have a target of $2 billion by 2020 for exports.
South East Asia , Central Africa , Gulf region, South and Central America are areas having many small to medium sized countries. All these are potential markets for a 300km range AEW system. Even if they manage to sell 2 or 3 systems , we can establish a export variant of the AEW system. Surely there is money to be made here with the MRO and capability enhancements. Plus jobs in manufacturing, sales and repair. There is no competition for the Saab Erieye. And we will most likely be cheaper .

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 24 Feb 2017 00:59

Netra has been flying at the middle east airshows over the last few years.
There are several inquiries from different nations: Brazil, Indonesia, Israel etc
There are several potential customers, a market for maybe a dozen odd or more. Hope GoI will sell a few around.


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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Feb 2017 23:15

Wanting a third and three more is great news!

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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Neela » 01 Mar 2017 13:38

Cybaru wrote:Wanting a third and three more is great news!


Not just that.
Christopher hints at Embraer AEW export too.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Pub ... 022017.pdf

As I said earlier, small countries are a potential target for sales.
Indonesia and an another South american country ARE interested.

Therefore, Embraer-145I AEW&C can
be offered for exports. This system garnered
a lot of interest during CAS’ visit
to Indonesia and also at the Bahrain
Air Show. Indonesia comprises about...


Also it makes sense to priviatize the marketing arm of DRDO no? It is not their core competency. HIve it off and make them work on incentives with GoI only clearing the political and geo-strategic issues.

Anurag
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Anurag » 03 Mar 2017 02:48

Anurag wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Cybaru, we are.


IL-76 Phalcon AWACS: 3 + 2 + (2 or 3 more)= 5 + (2 or 3 more)
DRDO Netra AEW: 3
A330 AWACS: 6
Total: 14 + 2 or 3 more (11 AWACS + 3 AEW)

Just to give you a sense of equivalent AWACS capabilities out there:

USAF: 32 E-3
NATO: 17 E-3
U.K. : 6 E-3
Saudi: 5 E-3
France: 4 E-3
China: 5 KJ-2000
PAF: 4 Saab AEW


http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... r-upgrades

Strong posssibility of ordering additional IL-76 AWACS. Read last paragraph.

At Aero India, Indian officials confirmed their intention to continue buying the A50EI AEW&C aircraft beyond the two additional ones that are now being completed in Russia at Taganrog. The A-50EI houses an Israeli radar system, the IAI/Elta EL/W-2090 Phalcon.

Cybaru
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 03 Mar 2017 03:23

Anything is a possibility and a lot may depend on the overall budget for this.

JTull
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 03 Mar 2017 03:36

Better to consider desi radar for A-50EI radome instead of Phalcon, if they're considering additional airframes.


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