Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 19 Aug 2016 17:01

When is our AWE&C planned for Induction. Hearing from long time since 2014 .....any updates. How can a system be exported without it being inducted into its own forces.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Aug 2016 17:40

About engines and power supply, I am no expert but will make a few general comments. Aircraft have reserve power for takeoff and climb. In passenger aircraft, because of the need for extra power, systems such as cabin lights and galley heaters, individual seat electronics etc are shut off. At cruising altitude there is more spare power available for all these systems. That apart passenger airliners cruise as fast as they can go. but a loitering patrol/AEW will not patrol on on max cruise speed, freeing up engine power for other systems. Also twin engines can cruise on one engine alone - in fact they can complete a takeoff on one engine after a bird hit, illustrating the spare power available. For this reason, I don't think an AEW will necessarily have extra special high power engines. In fact Japanese Boeing 767 based AWACS have the same GE engine as the regular 767-200.

Airliners that are converted to AWACS will require structural strengthening, but if engines are changed much more testing will be required. So I am guessing that any conversion of any airliner to an AEW/AWACS will only entail more APUs if at all necessary, but not an entirely new engine apart from the usual choice of engines typically offered with any civil airliner due for conversion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Aug 2016 17:50

Minor OT digression. Literally weeks before the 1993 bomb blasts I was on a BA 747 Mumbai-London flight. Two hours out of Mumbai the generators of 3 out of 4 engines failed, one after another. Electronics went off, lights were dimmed etc and pilot announced that we would fly back to Mumbai rather than land in Karachi that was very close. That cheered me in an otherwise tense situation

Reached Mumbai, dumped fuel and landed with fire engines and ambulances chasing us.

Spent the night in, of all places, Hotel Sea Rock perhaps in one of the very rooms that as blown up in the Paki-Dawood sponsored explosions that occurred shortly after.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Aug 2016 19:13

Cy,

Let's take a step back. What sort of pulsed RF power is generated by an AESA surveillance radar or for that matter any surveillance radar at high frequencies? Do we want to use multiple frequency beams on the same target for better tracking?

Commercial aircraft have the energy to operate a radar system's high voltage generation, but RF power generation takes space and has weight to it. If you add more T/R modules to your panels, for the required mission, you need a bigger aircraft. Solid state power supplies are heavy when you need excellent linear power. GaN certainly helps but it may be way too expensive at thIs scale for a full blown 3D surveillance radar.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Aug 2016 22:47

So are you saying put a belly based and a chapati based sensor on such a plane for both SAR/MTI and AEW work?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 19 Aug 2016 23:11

Not necessarily. Additional sensors to aid in target detection and for guiding missiles to target. The primary mission. For a powerful multifrequency array in the radome it will need many many T/R elements. To save cost you could do a passive array with the phase shifter at the element and amplifiers in the cargo hold.

The era of stealth design and RAM can be overcome. It just takes more money.

The big disadvantage of phased array, passive or active, is that getting high RF power density is difficult.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Aug 2016 00:41

I think its another situation where we are aiming for the moon and haven't achieved orbit around earth yet situation so to speak. There is much work that still needs to happen in this field for us as a country. The easier and achievable goal is to have two separate platforms that do a good job in each sector and we have acquire enough numbers of these assets to scale to different sectors and missions at any given time including accounting for the number of platforms undergoing maintenance and fitments.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Aug 2016 01:00

Different platform for different missions. AWACS operations and maintenance has now been understood by using the IAI EL/W-2090 on the IL-76. The limitations have also been understood. Which is why DRDO sought to design an AWACS on the A330 platform.

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 20 Aug 2016 01:20

A question on walkers post

what is the base for selection of ilyushin and why now we are shifting on Airbus

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Aug 2016 02:21

The IL-76 isn't made anymore. For mounting a radome the aircraft manufacturer would have to provide support for structurally modifying it or the technical drawings and data would have to be available.

The DRDO design appears to be probably the most capable AWACS in the world. Stealth targets would be lit up like a christmas tree.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 20 Aug 2016 02:38

malushahi wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^Or the same target using multiple frequencies. Target detection is less of a problem, but accurate low velocities are when the Doppler shift is minimal.
+1.

Thanks to both of you!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Aug 2016 22:43

Cybaru wrote:I think its another situation where we are aiming for the moon and haven't achieved orbit around earth yet situation so to speak. There is much work that still needs to happen in this field for us as a country. The easier and achievable goal is to have two separate platforms that do a good job in each sector and we have acquire enough numbers of these assets to scale to different sectors and missions at any given time including accounting for the number of platforms undergoing maintenance and fitments.

I disagree. The IAF already have IAI El/W-2090 AWACS on the IL-76 platform for the last 8-10 years. There is a knowledge base, so the analogy of achieving orbit has been attained. Trying to read between the lines and purely speculating, it really looks like the DRDO design is to use the A330 based AWACS to guide BVR missiles to targets in the air, ground or maritime.

The problem I see is that DRDO is inefficient compared ISRO as an organization. The AWACS project is going to need not just support from MoD, but a Parliamentary committee may have to ensure funds are consistent through the life of the project and ensure proper scientific, engineering and technical staff to bring it to fruition. The other problem I see, having met some recently retired Indian military officers, they are lethargic, uninspiring and corrupt. Now before I get brickbats about this statement - my experience is purely anecdotal and I pray that I'm completely wrong on this assertion.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 10 Sep 2016 11:00

Brazil, US probe graft in $208 million Embraer jet deal inked by UPA

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Sep 2016 21:12

Brazilian news paper Folha De Sao Paulo informs that EMB 145 AEW&C purchase by us involved a middleman with all that implies:

Embraer Contracts with India and Saudi Arabia Are Targets of Investigation in the United States

09/08/2016 - 13H51
WÁLTER NUNES
FROM SÃO PAULO

Investigations that have been opened by the government of the United States to establish whether Embraer paid bribes in order to obtain contracts abroad have affected deals that the Brazilian company closed with Saudi Arabia and India.The company has not released details regarding the state of the investigations, but three people who have been following the case have confirmed to Folha that the deals concluded in Saudi Arabia and India are being examined.

In both cases, suspicions were underlined in May of this year when an employee with more than 30 years at the company reached a plea-bargain agreement in investigations being conducted by the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office here in Brazil.

Albert Phillip Close, Manager of Embraer's defense area, told Prosecutor Marcello Miller that he had heard a former sales director who worked in Europe admit to American investigators the payment of commissions to facilitate the sale of aircraft to the Saudis. …………………….

In the case of India, the plea bargainer said that Embraer had contracted a representative to assist in the sale of a surveillance system to the government.

In 2008, Embraer sold three EMB 145 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft to the Indian government. The value of the deal was not announced at the time.

Translated by LLOYD HARDER

From here:

Folha De Sao Paulo

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Sep 2016 22:09

I was hoping that IAF might buy a few more of the EMB 145 AEW&C and a few more would be exported, but now I think we can forget it

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 11 Sep 2016 05:20

Why is the US involved? This thing does not fall in their jurisdiction. It is either in Brazil or India. US is just trying to fvck this up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2016 07:30

Hitesh wrote:Why is the US involved? This thing does not fall in their jurisdiction. It is either in Brazil or India. US is just trying to fvck this up.

I suspect that there are a lot of US inputs/items in the Embraer and if bribes have been paid it may involve US entities. Just a guess

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2016 08:27

all of the avionics in embraer are US or Euro (eg honeywell). some cos also doing outsourced work for embraer. the engines are also american.

euro cos are also involved incl supplying the wings from spain.

in a way same "indian" criticism can be levelled that there is hardly anything brazilian in those jets other than the fuselage , plastics and seating....the components by value would be 80% foreign

yet the beauty of being the top level integrator is it gives brazil a global footprint and is a huge emlployer. our RTA from NAL

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Sep 2016 08:42

now since unkil is our BFF, they will make sure we have no other BFF.

unkil is doing groundwork for a pitch by Boeing. Its an open secret how to game our system.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 11 Sep 2016 11:12

Read somewhere Dilma's ouster & installing pro-US folks in Brazil was done swiftly after Olympics.
Now this scandal with Embraer.

I hope this is not throwing a spanner in the works on BRICS.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Sep 2016 12:20

looks like all non US stuff is getting a hard time in the global market ( Dassault subs, now Embraer ..) .. push them out or stifle their R&D (Russia ..economy down, biggest customer courted by rival)

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Sep 2016 14:03

If French act stupid with us for their pricing and Russia with the lack of spares support etc. how can they blame Khan. We have to spend time and money on r&d from yesterday otherwise; we will be one more munna as we were of ussr.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 11 Sep 2016 16:44

We should ask Embraer to return the bribe money...that should be the end of it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2016 07:43

here is what russian jstars Tu214R is doing over syria. it is a 737 size airframe. everything is moving to that size due to cost and compactness improvements.

naruto · Post by **naruto** » 12 Sep 2016 10:19

Seems like our AEW&C program is going nowhere.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 283991.cms

The Air Force believes that the aircraft are several years away from conducting combat missions, despite DRDO assuring in 2004 when costs were sanctioned that the project would be completed by 2011.

"The programme is still a long way off. It is still in developmental mode and has to go through complex testing. It has not done any operational testing yet and the point when the military can use it effectively is still many years away,"Air Marshal M Matheswaran, who retired as the deputy chief of Integrated Defence Staff, told ET.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Sep 2016 10:33

^^^
You can ignore comments by Matheswaran. Even if our AWAC program is delayed by 5 yrs, it's still worth a 10 year delay.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Sep 2016 10:39

naruto wrote:Seems like our AEW&C program is going nowhere.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 283991.cms
The Air Force believes that the aircraft are several years away from conducting combat missions, despite DRDO assuring in 2004 when costs were sanctioned that the project would be completed by 2011.

"The programme is still a long way off. It is still in developmental mode and has to go through complex testing. It has not done any operational testing yet and the point when the military can use it effectively is still many years away,"Air Marshal M Matheswaran, who retired as the deputy chief of Integrated Defence Staff, told ET.

Last time Air Marshal M Matheswaram (retd) said something good about anything Indian was so far back in history that humanity was still single celled organism.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Sep 2016 17:24

^^

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Sep 2016 00:39

deejay wrote: Last time Air Marshal M Matheswaram (retd) said something good about anything Indian was so far back in history that humanity was still single celled organism.

Funny!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Sep 2016 19:25

this is where one of NAL RTA-70/90 etc or even a licensed production line would have been invaluable. in stead our penny-wise pvt airlines were crowing from the rooftops about "largest civil airliner order in history" that didn't add one paisa of capability to our aerospace sector.
for similar orders PRC wrangled production lines from both boeing and airbus.

the lack of vision & coordination has been nothing less than criminal.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Sep 2016 21:26

Rahul M-saar, I suspect, once again the counter-people has slept at the wheel. IIRC, there was a time when the RTA program was being readied for a first mockup++ assembly, with long lead-time parts being ready for tendering. But then the Devas scam accusations came up conveniently and the head got chopped off by a govt that was struggling on all fronts when it comes to corruption. This technologists vs politician equation soured and till date has never recovered, a good five years later

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 14 Sep 2016 23:30

Hitesh wrote:Why is the US involved? This thing does not fall in their jurisdiction. It is either in Brazil or India. US is just trying to fvck this up.

The movement of ill gotten gains through the US banking system give the US jurisdiction. Just like for FIFA investigation.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Sep 2016 00:16

hnair wrote:Rahul M-saar, I suspect, once again the counter-people has slept at the wheel. IIRC, there was a time when the RTA program was being readied for a first mockup++ assembly, with long lead-time parts being ready for tendering. But then the Devas scam accusations came up conveniently and the head got chopped off by a govt that was struggling on all fronts when it comes to corruption. This technologists vs politician equation soured and till date has never recovered, a good five years later

we needed an airliner and a mil transport by yesterday. it's disappointing that there's been no movement, be it for a screw driver giri licensed production even after the current government came to power. there needs to be a high level steering committee thingy cutting across departmental lines, civil aviation, mil, bureaucracy & technocracy.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 15 Sep 2016 00:35

Haanji so we will now blacklist Embraer and then it will be damn impossible to get spare parts.Ultimately the planes will be grounded for lack of repair and there goes our AEW&C programme.

Is there any defence deal that the UPA didnt manage to eff up?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Sep 2016 02:48

is that blacklisting co's still part of official policy ?

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 15 Sep 2016 02:58

Rahul M wrote:is that blacklisting co's still part of official policy ?

Has it been scrapped?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Sep 2016 04:36

for the love of jupiter, I hope not.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 15 Sep 2016 09:18

Rakesh bhai,

Nice to see that you still lurk around. BRF is coming up on its 20th anniversary and you've been around since then!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Sep 2016 09:26

OT : I still havent received that mithai promised by the admiral.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2016 10:27

Please send a notarized copy of your latest blood sugar report so that no harm is done by the 20 years late Mithai